With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries. – Revelation 17:2

There you have it folks! Revelation 17:2 has called out Rick Warren’s political show down between Barak and McCain. The great prophesies of the end times are being fulfilled, and the final pages of history are finally being revealed! I am so glad I recently purchased my license plate frame letting everyone know that “in case of rapture, this car will be unmanned.” At least the guy behind me will have had fair warning.

Two serious thoughts…

First off, I find it extremely odd that CRN just bashed Bell for loose interpretation of the scriptures and suggesting that cultural context must be looked at before making conclusions on biblical interpretation. Here is a pastor that interprets revelation via sermon and video to show that Saddleback is apostate because of the political connection. If that isn’t loose handling of the Word of God, I don’t know what is. This is a perfect example of isegesis — inserting one’s agenda and preconceived notions into the text. Who’s the one that should be accused of bad exegesis?

Lastly, the ODMs are constantly harping on the fact that seeker sensitive churches never give real meat to their congregation. They just give good advise and stick some scripture in here and there. There is no meat and no spiritual substance to what is being given to the people. But now I am confused. Here Pastor Jamey Day preaches on how evil Saddleback is from the Sunday morning pulpit. I mean, this whole thing was a huge hit piece on a church and pastor that is 2,631 miles away from them, and the ODMs post it on their blog! Did the congregation walk out saying, “Man! That was some amazing meat from the Word today. I am so glad to know that Revelation 17 shows how apostate Saddleback is, and that I should never get involved with purpose driven. I would never have known how much the Lord detests Rick Warren.” Mr Kettle, Mr. Pot is on line two.

Now, I will say this for those who will try to make excuses for the whole thing… Yes, the pastor did not mention Rick Warren or Saddleback by name. However, the examples he used were overtly pointed to them. Also, it appears that the video was posted under the Watcher’s Lamp YouTube account. So, it seems that the video was not made by Grace Fellowship of Chester Virginia. However, the principles remain the same

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This entry was posted on Wednesday, August 20th, 2008 at 11:51 am and is filed under Editor, Hypocrisy, In Tone and Character, Ken Silva, Linked Articles, ODM Responses, ODM Writers, PD/SS, Politics. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
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13 Comments(+Add)

1   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
August 20th, 2008 at 12:16 pm

I believe God dtests political involvement from a church. Even though I still reject personal involvement, church involvement is a much more serious issue.

Politicians are seeking votes, not Christ, and God’s church is to represent Christ, not issues. The gospel is our issue, and all the latest controversies are not of our bussiness.

Mary Queen of Scots said “I am more afraid of the prayers of John Knox than of 10,000 armed soldiers.” We are slowly becoming a political, not spiritual, force in America. Perhaps we could for five years avoid all politics, have every evangelical church open every night for prayer, begin to fast again, and beg God to rain down His power upon us once more.

After five years if we had not heard from God, let’s all resume our efforts to use the ballot box to leverage moral change. It’s worked so well up till now.

2   Jose    
August 20th, 2008 at 12:27 pm

Excellent idea Rick. Sign me up.
Maybe you should give it a name.

3   Paul C    http://www.themidnightcry.com
August 20th, 2008 at 2:34 pm

nathan – I think you might be a little naive if you don’t see that politicians see churches as simply another demographic to be targeted and therefore woo pastors (as in the case of Bush) as a means to an end: votes.

Pastors are so eager for recognition in many cases, or perhaps think that they can use their influence, bestowed on them by politicians who finally earn power and owe them payback, for good.

However, one of the reasons that David Ko, Bush’s guy who handled religious leaders quit, was because he (a Christian himself) discovered that:

1. senior officials who were in on a weekly conference call would mock these mega-church leaders behind their backs and had nick-names for each and every one

2. he was overwhelmed with how these men became disoriented and flattered to be included in this circle

3. they were viewed as vote-getters or “sneezers” who could be effective tools in the hands of a politician

Much like large companies (Ford and others) who simply view the “flock” as a demographic to marketed to, politicians are just as able.

Please don’t miss my point, which is this: when the church simply becomes a demographic, a vehicle for votes and the foolish shepherds can be so easily cajoled, the church is on shaky ground indeed.

4   nc    
August 20th, 2008 at 3:20 pm

Is everyone sitting down?


Here goes…

I agree with Paul C!


5   Paul C    http://www.themidnightcry.com
August 20th, 2008 at 3:23 pm

I agree with Paul C!

I couldn’t help it… I was sitting down but still fell off my chair. :)

6   Nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
August 20th, 2008 at 4:14 pm

Paul, I agree too. My point was not about the politics. It was about horribly sloppy inerp of scripture to prove you opinion, and using the pultip to teach anti-pd propaganda instead of the word. The double standard here is amazing!

7   Paul C    http://www.themidnightcry.com
August 20th, 2008 at 4:30 pm

Nathan – I disagree that this pastor was twisting the word of God in this particular clip.

He was demonstrating (perhaps not perfectly), as I understood it, that the partnership between religion and government will become increasingly strong as we near the coming of Christ.

What point did he make that you can refute?

The church, which is supposed to be the great fortress of the faith, has been breached on several occasions throughout history and, in my view, its wall have been desecrated terribly as we speak. Some people (not naming names) run headlong into destruction, often with well-meaning intent, while others are more cautious, taking heed to the warnings of scripture.

8   nc    
August 20th, 2008 at 5:19 pm

Paul C…

HAHAAAAA…the end really must be near….


9   John Hughes    
August 20th, 2008 at 6:13 pm

He was using an illustration, you know, trying to be relevant. I thought you guys were all for that. More pot/kettle thingie.

10   Joe C    http://www.joe4gzus.blogspot.com
August 20th, 2008 at 6:33 pm

John…I think you missed the point. No offense bro :)

The point is waiting for you on line 2, pick up when ready. :)

11   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 20th, 2008 at 7:17 pm

Funny I did not see “all the kings of the world” at RW’s church… unless we have become so American centered that we do not recognize anyone else anymore.

Now, for the most part, I agreed with the central message of the presentation. though I have minor disagreements.

But if anyone thinks RW is the anti Christ… then boy they will be in for a surprise when the real one comes!

Really… this is the RW is the Pope argument that does not hold water at all. How can the Pope of Rome be the AC and RW be the AC… and Barack Obama and on and on…

Really this piece highlights that truth of the hatred that is out there against RW… these people do not seem to know grace, mercy and so on… they would rather use someone they hate and compare his with Hitler… which this video implied btw…

That is sick… it is evil and twisted and about as nasty as one can get.

Again, this highlights their hate… for God calls us to love others. The bible states if we hate our brothers, the truth is not in us… so… I wonder… what spirit is driving these people and all their hatred against their own brothers and sisters… it sure is not hte Spirit of Christ! And we know that what is not of Christ is Antichrist…

So who is really on the Antichrists side?


12   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
August 20th, 2008 at 7:47 pm

NATHAN — you got mail.


13   S.J. Walker    http://alionhasroared.com
August 22nd, 2008 at 5:55 pm

Walker driving by.

Okay, I am going to be rude and say my bit and leave. Sorry.

Actually, probably not that sorry. :)

Anyway. Here goes nothin’.


You’re right that no-one was mentioned by name. And though you tried somewhat to shoot that down, I would still advise, for the sake of Grace, that you give that a little more credence. True, it was not hard to figure out who was being alluded to, but that is not a crime in and of itself.

Next, I hear this one a lot. You mentioned that RW is many many miles away from the speaker in question–
“Objection, Your Honor. Relevance?”
In other words, what does distance bring to the table when you’re dealing with someone (RW) who is known world wide? Leave all else out for this one and 2,631 miles have about as much relevance to this as a goatee, peace tattoo, and flip flops at a Nugent concert.

Next, you point out what you see as a double standard in that ODMs “harp” on the fact that seeker sensitive preachers leave out the meat and pour milk only (and the disagreement there is?) but that, at least in this post, “they” do the same thing. In all fairness, which I know is important, how long was that clip? 7:48. That’s not a full length sermon for which you could find no “meat”. BUt rather, a short clip from a sermon which none of us no anything else about. I won’t say there was “meat”. But you can’t say there wasn’t.

One last bone to pick, so to speak.

You said:

…I would never have known how much the Lord detests Rick Warren.” Mr Kettle, Mr. Pot is on line two.

Funny. But here is a question to ponder Nathan:
Is it okay for you to insinuate that the Lord detests someone when it is possible that you may be wrong about Warren? Meaning, what if, just for once, those that say Warren is a false teacher were, gasp, right. Because if they were, you and I can bet the Lord will be none to pleased.

Warren is nice guy. In fact, were he not a pastor and had the event not been held in such forum, I actualy applaud his questions and a few of the answers given. I do not think for a second, however, that it was appropriate for him to use the church to do it.

I’m not saying you have to think Warren is the AC, Nathan. But, for the sake of Grace you claim is gone from people on “my side” of the camp, it would help to make a better argument.

Walker out.