blather, blather, blather…same ol’, same ol’.

Nothing new here, nothing to see. Just move along.

Delusional – that was the word I was looking for.

Nathan,

Ah, it just warms my heart to see how much you care. No doubt man I’m totally underwhelmed by your love for me.

O but you forgot singer/songwriter:

Please God, please, please, please, please….

Don’t let Richard Abanes pick up the rope.

yeeesh…I just re-read that whole thing….

pastor-teacher…

more like:
pastor-screecher

But as a soldier I realize that an underlying principle Jesus taught concerning this spiritual Vietnam of a Truth War is that if you take up the Sword there is all likelihood you could also very well die by an enemy sword.-Ken Silva

How ironic and truthful is this statement… Vietnam was war that should not have happened, and gone on for as long as it did… how unfortunate the victims of that war.

So, Ken without realizing it has just stated this Truth war should not have happened, and is a waste of lives and resources….

For once I agree… good job Ken.

iggy

nc,

Ken misuses the title “pastor” as a shepherd would never do harm to his Masters flock. They would drive some out or rip them apart.

Ken, may be a teacher, but a biblical teacher he is not. He teaches works righteousness based on his own view and not God’s.

iggy

But as a soldier I realize that an underlying principle Jesus taught concerning this spiritual Vietnam of a Truth War is that if you take up the Sword there is all likelihood you could also very well die by an enemy sword.

“”Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.”"

Where are we told by the Lord to wield the broadsword of death against unbelievers, and especially other Christians?

Put down your sword. Jesus has rest waiting for you.

Joe

I’ll be honest, I do think Ken must be making sacrifices for all he’s doing, and that’s what makes me sad, thinking about what he’s giving up for what we’ve seen of his online ministry.

It reminds me of those kids that come home from a legalistic speaker at a retreat or revival, destroy all their movies, music and games, and leave all their “secular” friends in self-righteous rage, and years later after encountering Christ in an honest, real, true way and learning about what following Him actually looks like, end up spending years making up to all those friends they “sacrificed” and showed a terrible vision of Christ to (and are also kinda bummed out about all the great music they have to re-buy.:) )

This article actually moved me from a lot of the anger towards what Ken (which was hard lately because I encountered an ODM quoting guy in a church event recently and it really frustrated me seeing it out and about off the internet and disrupting a healthy, growing, Christ-centered event for people in the real world) writes and says to almost feeling bad for the guy,

If he feels he’s sacrificed this much, I’m inclined to believe the guy is sacrificing for what he believes is right, and if he hits the day where he discovers this energy and enthusiasm to be a misunderstanding and a misplaced endeavor, that the work he’s been doing wasn’t demanded by Christ (and may actually have been against Christ) that’s going to be a rough day and I hope there is a caring Christian community around him that he hasn’t sacrificed to help the dude pick up the pieces and find healing in our Savior’s arms. (in the same way I’d hope for myself If I find myself to be the one mistaken in a lot of this)

But it concerns me because if he has sacrificed a great deal as he says he has, that kind of sacrifice makes us so much more reluctant to receive correction, makes us harden our hearts that much more to the Holy Spirit because we’d hate to think of the sacrifices we’ve made to be a waste at best to time spent working against God at worst. It makes me hope he’s hyped it up so that there is more opportunity for growth and change there.

Ken my hope for you is the same hope I’d hope you’d hold out for someone like me on the other side of a whole lot of what you write, that we can hear that still small Voice under and in all the hubbub we think we are doing for the work of the Lord, and that we’d be able to respond if it turns out the Voice is calling for a complete turn around even in light of the sacrifices we’ve made for ministries.

But there is a light in this tunnel, he actually uses a mainstream movie to make a point, and quotes from a book he wouldn’t whole heartedly endorse every last sentence in! Maybe he’s coming around in little ways.

Character assasination at its finest. You guys are great. This is what a Christian blog should do. We should insult, mock, and curse a man who serves the Lord.

This site has become more and more like Iggy’s evil ODM site in its mockery. Oh the plank must hurt.

But go on, you show your true colors. This post is just evidence of the fact that you all have no idea about grace or charitable reading.

You have become what you hate.

Darren – the sermon you mentioned is merchandised as the one that is so anointed, so courageous, and so John the Baptistesque, that he is never invited back.

That type of hype is a cousin to the miracle spring water.

Iggy – most of his messages are distinctly Arminian, even Finneyesque. I guess all you must do is claim you are Calvinistic, not practice it.

My view of a true Calvinist evangelist is one who just preaches the gospel with no frills, no stories, no Dicken’s Christmas Carol, no criticisms of others, just the plain gosepl and let the sovereign Spirit of God reach the elect.

If you add all those other things how can you be sure you are not manipulating people to make false professions? I find it curious after reading how so many people get saved in his meetings, that God collects so many elect in his meetings. Hmm…just like Finney.

God sure is partial to Americans isn’t He. He really detests Iranians, Japanese, Indians, and whole lot of Africans. I’m beginning to think God really is an American!

There is no God but Jehovah, and George Washington is His messenger!

Pastor Silva,

I know you think we are not friends, but I brush that off because I know at heart we are. I’d like to share with you a thought or two concerning this post of yours and invite you to give it some very serious thought.

I read this story once about GK Chesterton who entered an essay contest. The entrants had to answer the question: “What is wrong with the world.” Chesterton reportedly won the contest by writing just two words: “I am.” My point is that in your post, you mention everyone else as the problem, but you do not take any of the blame for yourself. None? Well how can that be? You named everyone you could think of in one post–many of whom do have serious theological issues–but what of your own? Is everyone else really the problem?

Second, you wrote: “But I wonder, how many have stopped to think about how I now have to rebuild each of the posts because the links within them are all broken.” You know, I have thought about this actually. I imagine it is a lot of work. I recently burned 8 years worth of my sermon manuscripts and journals. I understand completely how much work you are involved in with your writing. But here’s something I just read this morning in a happy little book by Annie Dillard called The Writing Life:

“Several delusions weaken the writer’s resolve to throw away work. If he has read his pages too often, those pages will have a necessary quality, the ring of the inevitable, like poetry known by heart; they will perfectly answer to their own familiar rhythms. He will retain them. He may retain those pages if they posses some virtues, such as power in themselves, though they lack the cardinal virtue, which is pertinence to, and unity with, the book’s thrust. Sometime the writer leaves his early chapters in place from gratitude; he cannot contemplate them or read them without feeling again the blessed relief that exalted him when the words first appeared–relief that he was writing anything at all. That beginning served to get him where he was going, after all; surely the reader needs it, too, as groundwork. But no…How many books do we read from which the writer lacked the courage to tie off the umbilical cord? How many gifts do we open from which the writer neglected to remove the price tag? Is it pertinent, is it courteous, for us to learn what it cost the writer personally?” (6-7)

Finally, with regard to the OP and the word ‘martyr’, a Greek word that properly means ‘witness’ and may nor may not carry the conotation of ‘witness who is persecuted because of the witness,’ I’ll say this: Jesus did indeed tell us to ‘count the cost’ of being a disciple. He did not, however, tell us to wear the bill of sale around our necks for everyone else to see. As your friend, Ken, I’m asking you and pleading with you, to stop embarassing yourself in this way.

your friend,
jerry

Jerry,

You’d do well to forget about it. We are definitely not friends and I have no interest in things that you say because you have zero insight into who I am.

“qualified to be a pastor”

Hey, let’s go pomo on that statement. Who gets to decide who is “qualified”? And what are the qualifiers? Does it vary from community to community? Maybe the qualifications are different in according to the various mission fields a pastor serves in?

Are women qualified? Isn’t the Church divided on that issue? So if a suit behind a desk with his training in business from one part of the country qualified themselves to decide another’s qualifications? And can you be a counselor when you own feelings are so easily hurt by mere words on a screen?

And Nathan, in the words of the great rap theologian Tupac, “I ain’t madatcha.” Have a great life y’all.

You are becoming what you hate! It is not charitable to attack and demean a man for his beliefs, his writings, etc. Just don’t read it if it bothers you.

John,

Can you honestly not see the duplicity/hypocrisy in this statement?

No, Chris, why don’t you explain it to me.

Is it the same as the duplicity/hypocrisy of those on this very blog who have written about the ODM’s criticizing small churches that are not in their area without ever having seen them, or been to their services?

Is it the same as the duplicity/hypocrisy of demanding charitable reading and grace in all things except when it is Ken Silva, Ingrid, Mike Ratliff, Chris R and the like?

Oh, no it must be the duplicity/hypocrisy of the team politics that you so passionatly strove against, which you display on a daily basis on this site.

YOU BECOME WHAT YOU HATE.

postmodern monolith of extra biblical wisdom in Grand Rapids?

Have you been attending the “Ken Silva School of Tabloid Titles and Cool Sayings” at night?

Joe,

No I came up with that one all by myself. You like it?

“Just don’t read it if it bothers you. Remove Apprising from your favorites list. “

John – that works both ways. If it bothers Ken, Ingrid, or you, don’t click on it. Again, this blog thing is way overblown and overestimated. But you must understand that even though some of the issues the ODMs address are relevant, some of the things they say and attack should be confrontable.

Who gets to decide what should or shouldn’t be corrected? Everyone should make their points without getting hysterical. I reserve the right, as does everyone else, to write what I feel my conscience dictates. I am not inerrant but I am sincere. Everyone must answer to God for themselves.

Amen, Rick.

A voice of reason in the midst of the fray.

Got any of those drugs? I need to chill.

Chris,

I did not mean to be full of presumption. I meant to make the point that I have no idea what they thought. As Rick so beautifully said, I must answer to God for myself, therefore I must do what God has called me to do regardless of the opinions of men. And so must Ken. And that is the point.

Joe Martino listens to PCR?

Joe, I am impressed.

Haha, I didn’t say I agree with what he has to say. I just listened.
I didn’t say I disagree either

Bo,

I can only pray that is not true. But if I must be a fool for Christ, I will be a fool.

YOU BECOME WHAT YOU HATE.

John,

You’re really reminding me of the “Leave Britney alone!” dude on YouTube. The first time I watched it, I tried to pay attention, but now it’s just become another meme of pop-culture stupidity. Your meme is really no different because it is just as logically convincing as “Leave Britney alone!”…

However, since any level of nuance tends to be lost on you, I’ll try to spell it out in a little more detail:

A famous rabbi once commented,
“For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

Now, following this metaphor (which some incorrectly take only in the abstract as some post-death experience), what we do from time to time is use the measures espoused by Armchair Discernmentalists (like Ken and yourself) and use them on you, rather than your targets.

And apparently you don’t like it. Good! Perhaps a way to stop the ‘pain’ you’re feeling would be to go to the root cause (your own measures) rather than the symptom (having your own measures applied to you). It’s kind of like the man who passed a boy on the street who was hitting himself in the head with a hammer. When he asked why the boy was doing this, he replied “because when I stop, it feels so good…”

Now, since the ends do not justify the means, when I apply an ODM’s measurement back upon it, I try to make it clear (for all but the thickest of skulls) that I am doing so as satire or as “absurdity to demonstrate the absurd”, and not because I believe the measure is a valid one. (See the satirical piece on Ingrid’s support of the Moonies)

Or, conversely, if an ODM claims to use a particular measure (a good one, at that), but then completely misapplies it, I am reminded of the same rabbi I quoted above, who made an observation about a similar group of people who were straining gnats but swallowing camels.

So, in the case of one Armchair ‘Discernment’ ‘Ministry’, the very word “Research” is in their title, and is claimed to be a defining measure of their “ministry”. However, since they have very little actual talent for this measure, it is helpful – from time to time – to correctly apply it as a demonstration, again with the hope that when such a thing is used correctly, they might gain an appreciation for a) the power of proper usage; and b) the responsibility that goes along with using it.

So, in the case of Ken – he has claimed the mantle of authoritative research, so is it a disservice to apply actual research to his claims?

Ken claims to be a pastor (and quite often shoves this title in people’s faces when he is questioned), ordained by the SBC. So, with a minimal bit of actual research, when the SBC was contacted, they disavowed affiliation with Ken, his “church” and his title. (As a result, I will refrain from using the title “pastor” for Mr. Silva until some other body recognizes him, since the SBC has stated that it does not.)

Ken claims to be under the authority of a ministry board. However, he won’t provide names or contact information for this board, but one of the board members contacted one of us with the basic message “I sympathize with you, but Ken doesn’t listen to us.” Again, minimal actual research was conducted with pretty unequivocal evidence that the way Ken represents himself is more like the snake in the garden than the prophet in the wilderness.

Ken claims to have been “mentored by” and to have “studied at the feet of” the late Dr. Walter Martin. With a minimal amount of research, it was discovered that Dr. Martin had been dead for several years before this “mentoring” and “studying at the feet” occurred. So, again, the truth is something that escapes Mr. Silva, or Dr. Martin was resurrected prior to Jesus’ final return.

Ken claims martyrdom for losing his site because of a complaint by Richard Abanes to his ISP. With a minimal amount of research, again, it was discovered that his ISP didn’t delete his site – he did.

The list of instances of applying minimal actual research to verify the bona fides of someone who claims to be a ‘researcher’ has no wrong attached to it. If Ken was being truthful, the truth would bear him out.

[It really would not surprise me all that much if we sent someone to the backwaters of New Hampshire, only to find out that Ken Silva was a semi-fictional character invented to mock fundamentalist Christianity in an ultimate play in satire. In fact, I would then find Ken to be the most brilliant satirist in the modern church - with satire that would put Iggy's (now-defunct) I Todyaso site to shame.]

So, in summary, your “you become what you hate” meme ceased to have any credibility months ago, and right now that “Britney” dude is starting to look less and less silly in comparison…

We should start a spreadsheet on how often the tired old argument comes up that we are just like them, or we are what we hate, blah, blah, blah.

There are times we allow our standards and behavior to slip, but the accusation that we are no different, or the proposal that we should not oppose those who erroneously oppose, because both are oppositions – is laughable.

Neil

The problem is, that you nailed the guy with the Baseball Bat, and stopped him for the moment, but the illustration is a strawman, because you discoverd how cool it is to hit someone in the knees with a bat, and wonder how it would feel to bash him in the head the ribs and the feet!

Last time I checked ODMs were still viciously assaulting the saints of God. Did you have some sort of meeting and finally agree to stop your sin in the last 10 minutes?

Jerry,

“I’m touched. You’re just mad…” You must be if you think you’re a mind reader now. You upset me about as much a piece of lint on my sock.

And I have news for you boys no denomination of men, no matter how much they pat themselves on the back, calls someone as a pastor-teacher.

Your argument concerning my function in the Body of Christ is with the Jesus you claim to know. I suggest you take it up with Him that you most special “Christians” don’t approve of His choice.

And good luck.

When you never question yourself, never question your motives, never question your methods, never question your words, never question your perspective, never question your tone, and generally never question your approach to almost anything, then you must be confronted for Christ’s sake.

And when your methodology to enjoin a conversation concerning truth is filled with personal invectives, pejorative names, creative hyperboles, self inflations, and just a general atomsphere of hostility, the entire format is unproductive and many times becomes destructive.

And what you are left with is a form of internet “Dungeons and Dragons” whose goal is winning an argument instead of being used of the Spirit to inject some truth wrapped in humility. My entrance into this internet game was with a leaning toward the discernment ministries. However after several months I could not reconcile the caustic speech and cavalier attitude that seemed so prevelant within the camp I was “in” at the time. And when I addressed it, I was treated as a traitor.

There is so much more to following Christ than just checking the correct doctrinal boxes. Even if I hypothetically espoused every single correct doctrine as it pertains to theology, but fail to live for Christ in loving humility, I firmly believe I have failed as a Christian.

Joe,

Get yourself a spiritual hearing aid.

Rick,

“When you never question yourself, never question your motives, never question your methods, never question your words, never question your perspective, never question your tone, and generally never question your approach to almost anything, then you must be confronted for Christ’s sake.”

And who’s doing that?

Yah, yah, yah…
youbecomewhatyouhate,
blah, blah, blah…

PB,

you aren’t defending against perceived excesses.

You’re defending the substance.

Don’t fool yourself that somehow you’re taking the highroad…

re: And I have news for you boys no denomination of men, no matter how much they pat themselves on the back, calls someone as a pastor-teacher.

yeeeesh, talk about lone ranger religion.

And i do mean religion.

Ken,

so glad to see you know how to do a word search on Biblegateway.

Job 12:1-2

Bo,

I can only pray that is not true. But if I must be a fool for Christ, I will be a fool.

PB,

In regard to your prayer: Amen.

Be a fool for Christ. That’s admirable. But too often people will take that to mean territorial, religious jerk.

Joe,

Your hearing is dull at best. And I’ll tell you what, you just pray whatever you like… We know who God listens to.

talk about not making sense…

seriously…Job 12:1-2

It’s so you Ken.

Re:Hey, let’s go pomo on that statement. Who gets to decide who is “qualified”? And what are the qualifiers? Does it vary from community to community? Maybe the qualifications are different in according to the various mission fields a pastor serves in?

Are women qualified? Isn’t the Church divided on that issue? So if a suit behind a desk with his training in business from one part of the country qualified themselves to decide another’s qualifications? And can you be a counselor when you own feelings are so easily hurt by mere words on a screen?

Actually, those are all just logical questions of inquiry…

nothing “pomo” about it.

yeeeesh, and people say the “emergents” supposedly throw around jargon.

sounds like you might need some more “mentoring” from Foucault, Lacan, Derrida, etc.

It’ll bulk out your resume…

Joe,

Your hearing is dull at best. And I’ll tell you what, you just pray whatever you like… We know who God listens to. – Ken

Now that takes some serious kehonas…

Neil

Joe,

Your hearing is dull at best. And I’ll tell you what, you just pray whatever you like… We know who God listens to.

Too true, Ken, too true. Really and truly, is that the best someone of your caliber has? I mean of all the angry and asinine things you’ve said over the years that’s the best comeback you have? What are you 12? Where was your nanni nanni poo poo?

“that’s the best comeback you have?”

Why Joseph, are you implying we’re to make this some kind of game of one-upsmanship? What would Rob have to say about that young man.

Rob who? Rob Folz? Rob Fowler? Rob Ryerse? Rob Johnson? Rob Williams? I know so many Rob’s, which one are you talking about?

. Plus God is on my side.

That’s what the Crusaders said too. They were wrong and so are you.

Why Joseph, are you implying we’re to make this some kind of game of one-upsmanship? If so you need to understand that my intellect is far superior to everyone here

Ken, I’ve figured out how you could solve all of your financial problems! You could write a book, “The 4 most humble and faithful people on earth. Plus, how I trained the other 3.” I’m sure it will be a best seller.

Ken Silva Says:
August 22nd, 2008 at 4:27 pm
“that’s the best comeback you have?”

Why Joseph, are you implying we’re to make this some kind of game of one-upsmanship? If so you need to understand that my intellect is far superior to everyone here. Plus God is on my side.

The bold was added by someone other than me. Perhaos Chris Lyons may wish to know someone is altering comments and attributing words to people that they didn’t say. I’m guessing that’s unethical.

Yeah Nathan, I’m the bully.

You have Joe trying to play a game of one-upping, which I haven’t played, and someone putting these words into a prior comment of mine, which I did not write: “If so you need to understand that my intellect is far superior to everyone here. Plus God is on my side.”

I think whoever doctored my 4:27pm comment owes me an apology.

Oh Ken,
Just because say I’m playing one up doesn’t mean I am. Your the one who implied that God doesn’t hear my prayers. The truth is you are a bully. You’re a mean person who probably has a delusional disorder. You’re snarky, you refuse to have any real accountability and you over inflate your own creds because you’re probably extremely insecure.
You’ve built an entire blog on slamming people but the first time you get criticized you cry martyr. You wouldn’t know what soldiering meant if you got bit in the ass with it.
Turn from your wicked ways Ken before it’s too late. Seek help while help is to be found.
Oh and your ISP does match in all comments.

Nathan C. follow along now, I’m not upset dude. I simply stated a fact, k. Whatever people want to think of me is cool by me.

They have every right to be wrong. Since I was right here I was only setting the record straight.

Chris L., thanks. Happens…

Yes Ken, he called me and you told him you were going to do what you wanted to do. I told him I’d not discuss what he and I talked about so I won’t.

You can’t handle the truth!!

The USA basketball team – AWESOME!

I think this tit-for-tat is in opposition to our standards.

Neil

Chris,

Thank you for explaining what happened. You have no problem from me.

Joe, you do know what a non-sequitur is I hope.

Neil, discussion is in opposition to your standards?

BTW, Ken is more than welcome to come on here and set me strait that indeed he was a soldier. He can tell me that when he throws those metaphors around he actually knows what he’s talking about, he’s not just whining. I’m not holding my breath.

Joe: “he called me and you told him you were going to do what you wanted to do.”

I deny that is the truth. Ed called on his own unknown to me. He onlly told me he had called you AFTER he had called so I couldn’t have said to him I was going to do what I wanted to do.

You’re digging a deeper hole for yourself Joe. Please stop it. I’ve known Ed for years and he’s a straight shooter as they come. He also knows full well my heart for Christ and of my setting up an accountability structure, which he’s been a part of long before you ever even heard of me.

Rick,

No, he didn’t.

Joe,

And I’ll ask Ed if he said what you attributed to him. You’d better pray that he does.

Ken,
Send me a picture of you and amend your post which is a libelous lie and I’ll send you the emails.
Oh and Ken, what would it matter if I prayed? According to you, God doesn’t hear my prayers anyhow. How well did you and Job get along?

Joe,

With all due respect logic is not your strong suit and it’s not wise to read intent into statements that isn’t there. You won’t want to go the legal libel route because this comment thread won’t make you look very good.

I’ll be speaking with Ed in a few minutes and I’ll know exactly what’s transpired between the two of you as it concerns me.

Ken,
Is that no to those questions?

Joe C.,

Your last comment is why I have suggested that maybe you need to grow up. Like I’m hiding here today? I’ve answered pertinent questions and all I ask is that maybe some others be honest enough to consider they just might be wrong about me.

Rick and I remain friends despite his afflication of Notre Dame football but we have strong differences. Maybe a few here need to man up like we do, He and I have said some tough things about each other’s beliefs and last I checked neither of us died from it.

Joe M.,

Thanks for always showing the better way S.J. Someday when I grow up I want to be just like you.

Sigh.

Joe C.

I’ll second that.

BTW–is Pastor/Teacher/Prophet Ken Silva a martyr or not?

What page in Foxes will I find his bio?

thnx in advance,
jerry

huh…I don’t remember saying that you were upset, Ken.

Your point?

If anyone read through this thread who was a supporter of Ken… I would be amazed as to if they still were… Ken seems to have shown us all again what and who he really is.

Never turn the other cheek, never forgive… be mean and nasty and snide… be rude and vicious… be ever accusing and never merciful. Never give grace nor think the best of others.

Sorry Ken, that is all unbecoming of a REAL pastor though I know a few teachers that are like that… but no one really liked them and few actually learned from them.

Come back to Jesus, and may the Spirit of our precious Savior give you a new heart and renew your spirit. May your day go better…

iggy

Day of prayer Aug 28th

I concur with Joe C that this has become a tit-for-tat. I’m going to close this particular thread for at least the next day, and then let it reopen on the 10-day schedule to see if everyone can play nice…