It has frustrated many of the authors on this site for quite some time how some people can’t seem to grasp certain concepts including but not limited to the flow of logic, logical fallacies, and literary devices (i.e. simile, metaphor, irony, etc.).  Now, to be fair, most of us missunderstand, or completely miss, the use of some of these some of the time.  Also to be fair, not all of us are as good at utilizing some of the terms and/or actually using the techniques as others.

I have a college education.  I’m also in graduate school.  When I’ve had good sleep and healthy food, I’m a fair writer, but I often have to look up terms and think through many of the things listed above.  When classes start again this fall, I’m sure I’ll be on Wikepedia every other hour looking up something I learned years ago (or never caught onto when I should have).  There may be times when all of us feel superior to another because they don’t understand what to us seems so obvious.  We do need to watch out for such times.  But most of the time, the authors here do not talk about and use the terms of logic and literary devices to degrade others.

Let us look for the best in each other and seek to better understand what those who disagree with us are saying.

Tags: disagreement, logic, understanding

Friends,

I only have time for a short post on this, so I need to get straight to the point. Read on only if you have courage as I am a bit testy this morning. I know we have hashed and re-hashed this issue over Granger, but I have a different perspective to lend: that of the ‘pastor.’

I haven’t followed the ‘Granger is Full of Heretics’ story too closely, and I am relatively new to the ways in which certain ADM (’Actual Damnation Ministries’) work, so I’ll need just a bit of help here.

First, SOL links to this story with this title: Who’s to Blame for the Granger Debacle? The author of Slice writes:

When over half of your congregation doesn’t believe that Jesus is the only way to salvation, who is to blame? When nearly that same amount doesn’t believe the Bible is authoritative, where does the fault lie? Is it the fault of the pastor? The elder board? The small group leaders? The architects of the building? The local utilities? The house band?

Second, this is actually a link back to a blog I am starting to dislike more and more, despite the author’s claim to not be an ODM, (My) Truth Matters. The author writes:

Who is the shepherd of the local church? Who is responsible to “feed and guard the sheep”? Listen to how Mark Beeson takes no responsibility and blames the people and then describes the “changes” that will be made.

Third, here’s where it gets to the point. So, Granger church (of which I know very, very little) does a little survey and concludes that there are some things wrong or at least concludes some things that need to be addressed. Then they start addressing these issues, but only after making the results of the survey public knowledge, and thereby setting up the ADM’s for at least three days worth of posts and ’see I told you so’s’. So, if I understand this correctly, and follow the logic and work habits of the ADM’s: 1. Criticize a church with whose theology and practice you disagree. 2. Make certain you publish all their flaws publicly for all to read.  (3. Said church does a survey which concludes there are, yes, problems, that need to be addressed. [Would that more churches had such courage. Would that more ADM's had such courage.] ) 4. Publish new articles criticizing the Church for agreeing with what you were saying. 5. Publish more articles that go out of their way to assign blame. Continually harp on the ‘pastor’ or ‘leadership’ of said church in an effort to prove oneself right and to show massive prophetic powers to constituents and contributors. 6. Start the whole process over again when said church makes changes that you don’t think ‘go far enough.’

Fourth, the blame game…hmmm…where I have heard that before? Oh, yes: “Was it you?…It was the woman….It was the serpent…It was…uh…it was the, uh…Nixon…Clinton…” At some point the blame becomes pointless. If you are an ADM/ODM please tell all of us why you give a damn (sorry) who is to blame for this? WE ARE SINNERS! We will do the wrong thing and make wrong choices. The issue here is not that they found something wrong, but that they had to courage to admit it in the first place. I could survey the entire world and find that 98% people don’t believe Jesus is exclusively the way to salvation. Granger found the problem…why do you care who is to blame? Have you nothing better to do with your pathetic dreary graceless blogs? If they have found the problem, if they are working at fixing it, why do you care? How does what they do affect your comfortable lives behind keyboards and microphones?

Fifth, the gist here is about the role of the preacher in the church. One the one hand, I want to respond, “You think it is the job of the preacher because you have a terrible misunderstanding of the role of the preacher/evangelist/pastor.” ”Our culture tells us a great deal about ‘the minister,’ and much of what it says is inaccurate. It has presented an image of how he should look, what his job is, how he is to act, what he is supposed to in times of illness and death, upon whom he is supposed to call and how often and for what occasions, and even what his family should be like. ‘The ministry’–that vocation in which one is overwhelmed with meetings and a myriad of tasks, torn by conflicting expectations, molded by centuries-old traditions of the pastor-priest–seems impossible to increasing numbers of candidates who sincerely yearn to serve God.” (Joe Ellis, The Church on Purpose, 111 (Standard Publishing, 1982)

You want to know why we are ‘losing the battle for America’? It’s because the people who sit in the pews and at their computer work-stations blogging don’t have any idea what is going on in the life of the typical American pastor and because people like ADM/ODM’s scare the hell into young people who want to go into ministry so they can PREACH. But thanks to a culture of feeders, preachers cannot focus on what matters (ministry of the Word and prayer, Acts 6) because we have to all sort of other stupid things like go to meetings, visit this person or that, hand all the admin…blah…blah…blah…It is lazy parishioners…lazy Christians…people who won’t carry one another’s burdens, people who won’t feed one another, people who won’t care for one another…that are to blame. It’s just too easy to blame the man or woman upfront isn’t it? Takes all the burden off of you, right?

On the other hand, I want to say, “Those who can, preach; those who cannot criticize or blog.”

If you sense a bit of anger here, please do. If you are offended by my use of the word ‘damn’ or ‘hell’, tough. I’m tired of these people who have nothing better to do but sit around and assign blame. I’ll tell you what: I’ll take the blame for Granger having the problems they do. Maybe now the AMD’s will shut up about it.

jerry

PS-”To this day the Biblical role of the church member has not been substantially reclaimed. Christians, by and large, do not demonstrate a clear awareness of the demand for serious, even radical, commitment. They tend to be pale shadows of the dynamic, Spirit-filled world-changers the New Testament describes. The primary doers–those responsible for getting Christ’s work done–remain the salaried ministers. Many of the church’s members continue to be observers of ministry, perpetuating a platform-audience relationship.” (Joe Ellis, ibid., 112) Well said.

Tags: Granger, parishioner whining, pastors, pew-sitters, preachers, SOL, Truth Matters

Mike Ratliff does a fourth part in his series of blogs called The Abomination of Easy-Believism. Here is his rebuttal to our earlier post.

My brethren, is this passage of the thief on the cross an example of what we are calling Easy-Believism? No, it isn’t All along we have been saying that God will save His people even when the one sharing the Gospel with them messes up. The tragedy of Easy-Believism is the validation to untold numbers of professing Christians that they are really saved even though they are not surrendered to the Lordship of Christ nor are they able to walk in repentance. Those who are doing this will have to answer to the Lord about this. Let us not make that mistake. [emphasis mine]

So this means that when Rick Warren “messes up” on his gospel presentation, God still saves people and they come to faith. Plus, Rick Warren does tell his congregation that Jesus needs to be Lord of their lives, we should assume that he has done all he can to help get people to the place of salvation. Just thought I would make that clear. And, since we cannot sort thru who is really saved and not in that moment, we should validate all of them are beleivers after they have made the commitment (i.e. acknowledging that 500 came to faith at Saddleback this weekend) and let the spiritual cards fall where they may. Glad we cleared all that up.

As a former military man (Army, 11 Bravo, 25th Infantry Division) I am accustomed to and familiar with military operations and language. So when people start throwing out analogies to war with their Christian walk I’m left wondering if they really know what the “cost” is. Often I’m left wondering if I know what the real cost is. I’ve never been in an actually war, conflict, or skirmish. The closest that I could get was in simulations of war. Lots and lots of simulations.

My drill sergeants were seasoned, decorated, veterans. They had tasted the battle, they saw first hand what the front lines were like. One of my drill sergeants, a mountain of man, often said “Gentleman, I have seen war first hand, I’ve looked into the eyes of men dying in the field, nothing we do can prepare you for that. But you, if your time should come, remember your training and do what you know”

We did a lot of simulations. This tactic, that tactic, and yet some more tactics. Drill, Drill, Drill. It really became instinctive, like breathing. On our last week of basic training we do a little exercise called “Field Training Exercise” or FTX for short. It is a week of all out battle with other platoons. Each platoon is given an opportunity to defend and attack a perimeter. It is imperative that during this training each man does his specific task otherwise the whole platoon would be in jeopardy.

On our second night of FTX we were being attacked from our south perimeter, it was a heavy fire fight that lasted for about 2 hours. Being on the north perimeter my task, as was the task of everyone that was “dug” in, was to defend the north perimeter regardless of what was happening anywhere else on the perimeter. Otherwise we would become vulnerable from multiple positions.

Throughout our training there were several guys, who being former R.O.T.C., felt the need to always prove themselves worthy and share how much they knew and how valuable they were. Unfortunately they weren’t well received by the others in the platoon. In fact they were shunned. Not because they were “know it alls” but because they had a unique way of making the rest of us feel like crap and getting us “dropped” (dropped= a tool drill sergeants have to make you do push-ups, flutter kicks, paratroopers, down-ups, or front leaning position until your arms fall off. Usually used when some R.O.T.C. guy corrects the drill sergeant) all the time. As misfortune would have it, for FTX, my “hole buddy” and I were “dug” in with both of these guys at our 11.

About 30 minutes into the firefight my R.O.T.C. friends decide that they’re going to leave their position and make the 1/2 mile trek across the perimeter to assist on the south side fire fight. Which in turn leaves a gaping hole in our perimeter. Within a matter of an hour or so our whole platoon is over run because we had been flanked to the north and could not defend our position. Everyone in our simulation died. Except for the two R.O.T.C. guys who were found in the middle of the perimeter sitting back to back with their weapons at the ready.

On night four of our FTX the same scenario happened, attacked to the south but “dug” in on the north. Immediately one of our R.O.T.C. friends gets out of his hole and starts to head to the south. Almost simultaneously; me, my “hole” buddy, and the other R.O.T.C. guy take aim and shoot our wandering friend. Dismayed he asks “Why would you shoot someone from your own platoon” to which my “hole” buddy responds “Your better to us dead than alive. Your a liability and I would rather have you die and save the whole platoon than the other way around.” We won our “battle” that night. Maybe it was the experience from before that helped or maybe it was because we chose to do what was in the best interest of everybody in our platoon. Certainly the possibility exists that it was multiple reasons.

So what does this mean for us? Can I suggest that when it comes to the spiritual battle that we are all in; we as Christians need to stay in our “positions” and trust that those on the other side of the perimeter will put into action that which they were trained to do. Otherwise you may get shot at from people who are supposed to be on your side. All because you’ve become a liability and are more harmful than helpful to the cause.

pastor

teacher

prophet

martyr.

More trash talking on the Granger survey from the ODMs. This time it comes from Way of the Master Radio. Once again, I love how these guys spend so much time critiquing everyone else in the world. As if it was their mission from God to inform the world on the shortcomings of once church in Indiana. They are little better than paparazzi.

It all comes back to this (and I completely agree with Bill Hybels and the pastor at Granger over these results), the job of the pastor is not to feed the sheep. The job of the pastor is to make self-feeders. Here are just a few things going on a Granger in a given week that I picked up from spending one minute on their website:

* Midweek Bible Studies at 6:30pm
* Four Services on Sundays & Saturdays
* Weekly Small Groups
* Core Classes
* Ministry Teams to serve with

Are the ODMs really going to expect me to believe that if someone connects with these services that the church offers, they are NOT going to hear once that Jesus is the only way, or that the bible is the word of God? That there is just fluff and happy feel-good sermons at each of these things. Really folks? Use some logic here. It seems like there are more than enough opportunities to connect to the Word of God and to good Christian people with these events.

Todd asks the question of who is the shepherd and who are the sheep in his broadcast. It’s not the pastor and the congregation, it is Jesus Christ and His people. The truth is that there is a lack of self-motivation and self-initiative in ALL churches today, regardless of theology, style or tradition. While Granger is struggling get people’s theology straight, traditional First Baptist Boondocks may be ignoring the alcoholic father, the apathetic mother, and the kids that do all kinds of nasty every night with their girlfriends. I see it all the time when I travel, and those of you in small town, USA can probably testify to that.

The disconnect between church attendance and biblical living is certainly not reserved for those in seeker-sensitive, purpose-driven, emergent, circus churches. It’s a problem we all face. And, until we get past all of our nice church facades and trying to save the Christian masks we hold so dear, our buildings will be filled with people who hear the Word, but are not transformed.

Tags: Way of the Master

Friends,

I’m supposed to be on hiatus this week as I begin moving into our new house and all, but something at SOL caught my eye this morning and I don’t want to let it pass without a comment or two.

Before I object to something in the post, I want to state upfront that I agree with this statement, “You cannot be a Christian and support the killing of un-born babies.” I am opposed to abortion on demand and the wholesale slaughter of children (even as I am opposed to the wholesale ‘putting away’ of the elderly in nursing homes or white vans owned by Jack Kevorkian). Murder, what the Bible calls enmity in Genesis 3:15 and elsewhere, is a terribly heinous sin and is perpetuated as the seed of the serpent goes about the business of trying to annihilate the seed of the woman. I am not, please note, not disagreeing with this particular point of the OP.

Having said that, I also came across this sentence (this quote is from Dave Daubenmire’s article that the author of Slice excerpted) that sort of bugged me. I’m not posting this because I agree or disagree (although I am leaning towards disagreement) at this point, but rather to stimulate some wholesome thinking and hopefully learn something. Daubemire wrote (admittedly, there is no other context aside from what the author of Slice excerpted, but I think I am not misunderstanding what he is saying):

No wonder we are losing the battle for this nation.

Now here’s my question: Is the battle we are fighting really for ‘this nation’? Is that really the war we are engaged in right now? I have to say, with all due respect, because in this instance I am perfectly willing to learn–that is, I’m not entirely certain of my position–that this doesn’t seem to be true. (I could ask if anyone thinks RW should have been tougher on the abortion issue, but that’s another post.) You see, I think here I agree again with Ellul who wrote this: “The church lets itself be seduced, invaded, dominated by the ease with which it can now spread the Gospel by force (another force than that of God) and use its influence to make the state, too, Christian. It is great acquiescence to the temptation Jesus himself resisted, for when Satan offered to give him all the kingdoms of the earth, Jesus refuses, but the church accepts, not realizing from whom it is receiving the kingdoms.” (The Subversion of Christianity, 124)

My point here is that if we are in a ‘battle for this nation’ are we not settling? I mean, is a merely Christian America the goal here? Is that why I wake up and pray every day? Is that why I preach? Is that why I sing? Is it God’s ambition that every business, every corporation, every entity in America, be Christianized? I know, I know: “Your Kingdom come, your will be done…” Yes. But if our vision doesn’t extend beyond the borders of America, are we not selling short the prayer? God’s vision is universal, cosmic, not merely local or national. When we pray, “your Kingdom Come,” does that mean, ‘Your Kingdom come in America?’ as in ’smite all the heretical enemies of America so the truly elect can get on with the business of Eden in America? Is that what Jesus had in mind?

With all due respect to Mr Daubemire, I am not fighting a battle for this nation any more than I am fighting a battle for the community where I live. Mostly I’m fighting a battle within myself (Romans 7) and often I’m losing–more often than I am winning. So my question to you is this: Are we, Christians (or for you good Reformed folks, the Elect), fighting a battle for America? Is that our particular calling at this particular moment in the history of the universe?  Ever? (On a side note, I might ask if RW is really the reason we are ‘losing the battle for America, but again, that’s another post as I don’t happen to think that what goes on at Saddleback is necessarily indicative of what goes on in most churches in America.) And do we really think that abortion is the issue in this battle? It goes back to Genesis 3:15 and the enmity. America is fond of killing in general; we invent ways of doing it; we glamorize it in films and Law and Order reruns; we are obsessed with killing. We have all sorts of reasons for murdering, but they are all murder. Abortion is a symptom and a consequence of the greater problem we have in the world, not a specifically American franchise.

What do you think? Does Ephesians 6 here play any role in this? Is there a battle for the soul of America that Christians are engaged in? (This sounds very political, and I am tres skeptical of the church being involved in politics at any level.) I’ll be interested in reading your thoughts. Please try hard to stay on topic and not railroad this post. Thanks in advance.

Soli Deo Gloria!

PS-please don’t read this and assume that I am either a) pro-abortion or b) anti-America. I am neither and if you accuse me of being so, I will sic merry on you or Rick or iggy or all three at the same time.

PPS-shame on Daubemire for laying all this at the feet of RW! Even if we are ‘losing the battle for America,’ it is hardly just to pile that at the feet of one person, especially RW. Fact is, all of us are guilty at some level. All of us bear the shame and responsibility for the sin of this nation.

Tags: battle for America, Christianity, Dave Daubemire, Slice of Laodicea

One of the criminals hanging alongside cursed him: “Some Messiah you are! Save yourself! Save us!”

But the other one made him shut up: “Have you no fear of God? You’re getting the same as him. We deserve this, but not him—he did nothing to deserve this.”

Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you enter your kingdom.”

He said, “Don’t worry, I will. Today you will join me in paradise.”

If this isn’t easy believism, I don’t know what is.

Ingrid wrote a very touching piece on adoption, sharing some of her own personal experience on the subject. It really had a beautiful message for her readers.

BUT THEN…

Pastor-Teacher Ken Silva decided to tack this headline onto it and use it for his own agenda. Talk about taking something meant for good and using it for selfish gain.

A side of the so-called “ODMs” that hunters of heresy hunters, say like a Richard Abanes, might wish you wouldn’t see.

That’s all I have to say. You be the judge on motives, intentions and whether or not this sounds like pastoral behavior to you.

Someone recently sent me a link to an epitaph from earlier this month. While the link to it no longer works (they’re only kept up a week), I think there are likely several lessons to be had:

Dolores Aguilar
1929 – Aug. 7, 2008

Dolores Aguilar, born in 1929 in New Mexico, left us on August 7, 2008. She will be met in the afterlife by her husband, Raymond, her son, Paul Jr., and daughter, Ruby.

She is survived by her daughters Marietta, Mitzi, Stella, Beatrice, Virginia and Ramona, and son Billy; grandchildren, Donnelle, Joe, Mitzie, Maria, Mario, Marty, Tynette, Tania, Leta, Alexandria, Tommy, Billy, Mathew, Raymond, Kenny, Javier, Lisa, Ashlie and Michael; great-grandchildren, Brendan, Joseph, Karissa, Jacob, Delaney, Shawn, Cienna, Bailey, Christian, Andre Jr., Andrea, Keith, Saeed, Nujaymah, Salma, Merissa, Emily, Jayci, Isabella, Samantha and Emily. I apologize if I missed anyone.

Dolores had no hobbies, made no contribution to society and rarely shared a kind word or deed in her life. I speak for the majority of her family when I say her presence will not be missed by many, very few tears will be shed and there will be no lamenting over her passing.

Her family will remember Dolores and amongst ourselves we will remember her in our own way, which were mostly sad and troubling times throughout the years. We may have some fond memories of her and perhaps we will think of those times too. But I truly believe at the end of the day ALL of us will really only miss what we never had, a good and kind mother, grandmother and great-grandmother. I hope she is finally at peace with herself. As for the rest of us left behind, I hope this is the beginning of a time of healing and learning to be a family again.

There will be no service, no prayers and no closure for the family she spent a lifetime tearing apart. We cannot come together in the end to see to it that her grandchildren and great-grandchildren can say their goodbyes. So I say here for all of us, GOOD BYE, MOM.

Wow…

As I read this, I wondered what things we do to tear our own families apart – both those by birth and those within the Church. And as I read this, I wondered if Dolores had a “discernment” blog. If so, this would seem all the more fitting. When I get emails asking if I would be happy if the Armchair “Discernmentalist” sites would all just shut down, the answer I give is “no – I just want them to start acting like the person they claim to follow”.

If not, then I’ve not read a more appropriate epitaph…