Found this quote from an ODM in a comment section really interesting.

I don’t know of anyone who flaunts their salvation or who revel in being hated. Perhaps there are some, but I don’t know of any.

I could think of a few :)

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142 Comments(+Add)

1   nc    
September 3rd, 2008 at 7:32 pm

ai yi yi yi….

2   Joe Brummer    http://joebrummer.com/WordPress
September 3rd, 2008 at 7:32 pm

If this is meant to refer to Christians, then I can give you a list and it is longer than you would think.

Lets start with Peter LaBarbera who revels in his salvation and also loved being hated for being righteous in god while all the while slamming gays and lesbians to the ground.

Perhaps blogger Stacy Harp could be next who also posts article after article about how GLBT folks hate her because she is speaking the truth of god. SHe loves the attention of being hated for being anti-gay.

Let’s move on to blogger Mark at Chester Street Blog…same deal

or Rev. DL Foster…same deal….

In fact, this has been my experience with many Christians. I am open minded enough to know that it is not a representation of CHristians on the whole, but to say one doesn’t know of any means one is out of touch with what is going on in the world.

-Joe Brummer

3   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
September 3rd, 2008 at 8:27 pm

Ratliff: If a ministry operates in such a way that the world loves it then there is at least one missing component in it. That of course is obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ. Scripture is clear that Christians cannot be friends of the world.

RA: And here we have one of THE key perversions of a biblical verse t be found anywhere in the ODM community.

It is so terrifyingly ironic that those who write sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
much about how important it is to accurately interpret scripture, so often take scriptures out of context and misinterpret them.

This is a prime example: “Scripture is clear that Christians cannot be friends of the world. ”

Really? Hmmm, that kind of sounds like this: “. . . the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who belonged to their sect complained to his disciples, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and ’sinners’?” (Luke 5:30).

RANT COMING – - – - – -

These ODMs hold to the tragically flawed opinion that ANYTIME a Christian mentions the Gospel rightly or does something godly that their words/actions MUST be offensive to unbelievers — or else it was not biblical or godly. But that is no what this scripture is teaching.

We are seeing a GENERAL principle in scripture: i.e., that the gospel message, according to the world’s wisdom (Gentiles), is foolishness. To the Jews, steeped in law, it is a stumbling block because the gospel strikes against the Law. This general principle holds true. But it does not mean “offended” the way that we in the Western world normally interpret the word: i.e., utter loathing, anger, and disgust.

There are plenty of unbelievers who hear the Gospel or see Christians acting with love toward their fellow man, and although they might not accept Christianity, they do respect it, and wish Christians the best. Some even admire the sentiments behind Christianity — although they reject it. They reject it because it is either foolish to them (i.e., it makes no sense to them personally, so they cannot embrace it), or it is a stumbling block (for potential Jewish converts).

But look at the Salvation Army, which has a pretty sterling reputation in the world as a charity, as do several other Christian charities. Are they not godly because the world contributes to them, considering them admirable? Are all those charities sinful and evil because they take donations from the wicked heathens?

And what about TV specials done on Christians who assist the poor, counsel kids, and spread the Gospel throughout rural America. Not long ago, for example, I saw a very secular special that featured a Christian guy in New Orleans building houses for people. He has scriptures written on the beams he uses to build the houses. And spreads the Gospel.

He tells people about Jesus. He is friends with believer and unbeliever alike. The world doesn’t hate him at all. Is he not biblical? Is he not doing true ministry? Is this man not serving in “obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ”?

Sorry, but that is kind of sick, if you ask me. Sick, sad, ungodly, unbiblical, and a hindrance to the gospel. I find that sometime the Gospel and so-called “ministry” is hated NOT because of the Gospel or great ministry work, but because the people representing Jesus are going out of their way to be obnoxious — just to make sure the world hates them (a sure sign that they’re really serving the Master).

They actually work at making the Gospel, Christ, ministerial work, evangelism, and Jesus as offensive as possible! That’s not biblical. And to be perfectly honest, I’m getting a bit weary about hearing how the world NEEDS to hate us. Non-Christians MUST hate us or else we aren’t being like Jesus. It’s a perversion of the biblical text.

So many Christians seem to feel like it’s a badge of honor to be hated. Odd.

RAbanes

4   pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com/
September 3rd, 2008 at 8:44 pm

Dick,

You are just saying this because Rick Warren, Americas Pastor is friends with the world.

He justifies it saying that we can get so much more done this way. It doesn’t matter if you do not preach the Gospel, or if you are even a Christian. Join the PEACE plan and make a difference.

The Media loves him. Politicians love Him. The church of the world loves Him. The whole world adores Rick Warren.

If Rick Warren preached the Biblical Gospel, the whole world would not necessarily hate him, but many of his biggest contributors would go elsewhere. He is very pragmatic, like his buddy Robert Schuller.

The world does not have to hate us, but if we preach the uncompromising truth of the Gospel, many will, despite our love and kindness towards them. Jesus warned us that we would be hated, persecuted. Peter encouraged us that we should be happy when we are persecuted for doing the good we are called to.

5   nc    
September 3rd, 2008 at 8:54 pm

Hmmmm….

Mr. Abanes,

do you ever go or have you ever gone by “Dick”?

6   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
September 3rd, 2008 at 8:56 pm

My post had nothing to do with Rick Warren. There are other topics besides Rick Warren. If no one named Rick Warren existed, this post would remain as is. And next time, how about addressing me by my real name. Thanks in advance.

RICHARD

7   Opus    
September 3rd, 2008 at 8:59 pm

Hey pastor boy
Why did you just call Richard,Dick.Was it disrespect or maybe a double meaning,anyway you slice it you are pathetic.
,Opus

8   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
September 3rd, 2008 at 9:06 pm

NC,

No, I have never in my life — gone by, been known as, or answered to, the name “Dick.” The ONLY people in my life who have EVER called me that name are “Christian” ODMs online and non-Christians both online and in real life.

RA

9   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 3rd, 2008 at 9:07 pm

I will never understand why people would hate me. I am so cuddly and sweet! :lol:

I do not hate anybody…for long. :cool:

10   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 3rd, 2008 at 9:09 pm

PB,

You are just being mean and nasty… it is uncalled for.

God so loved… the world.

Jesus was friends with sinners…

I guess your version of the bible cuts all that out.

iggy

11   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
September 3rd, 2008 at 9:16 pm

Uh Oh, once again John failed to control his considerable temper. Ta ta!

12   nc    
September 3rd, 2008 at 9:22 pm

RA,

huh.

Who’d a thunk?

13   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 3rd, 2008 at 9:22 pm

I have seen some complain and whine about being attacked verbally. Let’s see, in me dwells no good thing but I will not endure verbal assaults on myself without either responding or pointing out how I’m attacked.

Sometimes the American Christian church is such a sham and so unlike the millions that truly do suffer for Christ’s sake without a platform to elicit pity and proclaim themselves a blog martyr.

Hey, they spit on Him so just endure these electronic slights. I again give my full permission for anybody to say anything against me, and if you need some material just ask my wife of 30 years. She has an encyclopedia of damaging material that you could use for a lifetime. Start out with I am light years from accurately representing the Lord Jesus in all His fullness. In fact, I am more like me than Him.

OK, now I’m calling my lawyer! :evil:

14   nc    
September 3rd, 2008 at 9:23 pm

So much for the “potty mouthed” pomo “pastors”…

15   pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com/
September 3rd, 2008 at 9:46 pm

Dick is a short name for Richard.

No offense meant. I will call him Richard from here on, or RA.

Of course, the potty mouth NC would go straight for male genetalia. That is never what I meant. I have not called it that for 30 years (since Jr. high)

RA, the point still stands. If you preach the full, biblical Gospel you will be hated.

16   Joe C    http://www.joe4gzus.blogspot.com
September 3rd, 2008 at 9:49 pm

Nope. Can I get that from the Bible PB?

“If you preach the full Gospel, you will be hated”

Nope………

But I’m sure someone’s going to “try” :)

17   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 3rd, 2008 at 9:53 pm

There may be some that hate you, but we are not supposed to make it easy for them to hate us. We are the light, the salt, we are a city on a hill that is supposed to spread good news with love and humility.

A righteous man maketh friends with his enemies.

18   Joe C    http://www.joe4gzus.blogspot.com
September 3rd, 2008 at 9:58 pm

Thank you Rick…that’s a reasonable stance from Scripture…

19   Joe C    http://www.joe4gzus.blogspot.com
September 3rd, 2008 at 9:59 pm

I mean, seriously, think about this statement

“If you preach the full Gospel, you will be hated”

Ridiculous. Totally untrue.

20   pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com/
September 3rd, 2008 at 9:59 pm

Joe C,

If I explain to you that in God’s eyes you are a child of wrath, that your heart is desperately wicked above all things, that you have broken God’s law, and are doomed to an eternity of Hell, you are not going to like me.

Even when I explain the amazing love God had in sending Jesus Christ to take the punishment we rightly deserve, people still get angry. Even though this grace is free to the worst of us, like myself, people still get angry.

Matthew 5:11 Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me

John 15:18 If the world hates you, you know that it has hated ME before it hated you If you were of this world, the world would love its own, but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you……If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also…

21   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
September 3rd, 2008 at 10:03 pm

PB: If you preach the full, biblical Gospel you will be hated.

RA: I am quite CERTAIN that most of these so called “Christians” we see supposedly preaching the gospel God’s way, would be hated by everyone even if they preached no gospel at all. The two, IMHO, are not connected in the least.

The world hated Jim Jones and David Koresh, too. In fact, they used the very same excuse you are using to explain why the world hated them — they were preaching the full, biblical Gospel. Hmmmmm…….

RA

RAbanes

RA

22   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
September 3rd, 2008 at 10:04 pm

I see your Matthew and John and raise you a Proverb:

A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.

23   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 3rd, 2008 at 10:04 pm

Matthew 5:11 Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me

That is why I’m inviting insults and falsehoods. The “man-loving semi Pelagian” has already been used. Come up with something new!

24   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 3rd, 2008 at 10:07 pm

“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. ”

I thought we were hated because of Jesus, not the Gospel… which one is PB worshipping… the message or the Messenger?

iggy

25   Joe C    http://www.joe4gzus.blogspot.com
September 3rd, 2008 at 10:12 pm

John,

If that’s part of your full Gospel that NEEDS to be preached everytime, then you should take it up with Paul, Peter, and the other apostles in Acts for not mentioning most of that.

Besides, you took Jesus out of context twice in the verses you used.

Jesus said we’re blessed if we’re persecuted, but didn’t say we HAVE to be, or that it’s even necessary for the mark of the true Gospel going out.

and for the verses in John…

it’s talking about the ‘world’….a system…the way of mankind…our seat of power and what we stand for…if you’ll look up the greek at least. Please take the time to do so. Anyways, it says nothing about individuals MUST, or WILL hate us for telling them of the love and mercy of God towards man in Christ. Nope sir-eee.

Joe

26   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 3rd, 2008 at 10:15 pm

Fred Phelps is hated.

27   Joe C    http://www.joe4gzus.blogspot.com
September 3rd, 2008 at 10:18 pm

He’s got the best Gospel of all then, right????

28   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
September 3rd, 2008 at 10:18 pm

the message or the Messenger?

I think John has been clear on his stand about The Message.

29   M.G.    
September 3rd, 2008 at 10:24 pm

PB,

We all knew what you meant by calling Richard “Dick.” For having a self-proclaimed interest in the truth, you seem better at twisting it than anyone else I’ve ever read on this site. You repeatedly say silly things and are then forced to backtrack.
It would be better if you were just honest. It’s the Christ-honoring thing to do.

30   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 3rd, 2008 at 10:30 pm

M.G. – you are sooo right. When I call nc a “piece of crap” I will never back down!! :evil:

31   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 3rd, 2008 at 10:34 pm

M.G.

I wondered at that myself… but then considered the source.

iggy

32   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 3rd, 2008 at 10:35 pm

Rick,

But I thought that was a term of endearment coming from you…

iggy,
The other piece of crap.

33   john b    
September 3rd, 2008 at 11:01 pm

PC……

I know truth is not too important to you when attacking Warren but just so you know Warren has sent Schuller some pretty tough letters telling him he does not want to have his name on anything Schuller puts out and that based on some of Schuller’s beliefs he questions whether they believe in the same God.

You can find this info in RICHARD’S book….and I know it to be fact separate from that.

34   Sandman    
September 4th, 2008 at 1:19 am

PB,

That’s really disingenuous of you. You need to examine your motives behind calling Richard what you did. I can’t recall you ever referring to him as Dick on this site until this thread. But you don’t have to be honest with us; we’ve seen you can’t be honest with yourself.

I also find it interesting you had to respond by immediately associating Richard Abanes with Rick Warren when Abanes doesn’t even mention him. Given that, it may be good to constantly remind everyone that you were the one calling for continued persecution of Amy Grant and Vince Gill earlier this year for their adultery (each divorced a spouse and later married each other).

Such a lovely spirit.

35   Sandman    
September 4th, 2008 at 1:39 am

PB:

If you preach the full, biblical Gospel you will be hated.

Chapter and verse, please.

I’ve delivered the Gospel message to people in quiet humility, and hate was not the response I got. People wanted to know more about how it works in my life. I have been on the receiving end of scorn and derision when I refuse to compromise and go the way of the world just to make my life easier.

I suppose one can expect to be hated if or when you run around like a bunch of religious “behinds” creating unnecessary doubt about people’s salvation (Washer), calling others sinners and every other name in the book without even knowing the targets of their name-calling while acting like they’re without sin, sugar don’t melt in their mouths, and their poop doesn’t stink.

Is there a secret verse in the Beatitudes that blesses accusers, agitators and gossips?

36   BCP    
September 4th, 2008 at 5:08 am

PB,

“If you preach the full, biblical Gospel you will be hated.”

Depends on how you preach. Not everyone in a congregation/street will respond with hatred. Remember the parable of the sower?

BCP

37   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 4th, 2008 at 5:38 am

I once was talking to a wiccan who stated she wished she could believe in the God I did. She did not show me hate but was truly impressed with the God I talked about. She was not ready to ask Jesus into her life at that time, yet if I had used the “formula” she would not have responded to the Gospel as I was talking to her.

I see that it is the Holy Spirit that should guide us as we talk to people. Some need their sin pointed out some know their sin all too well… but few have heard the Good News. They have heard the bigots, judgmental and those that condemn them.

I tried the “full gospel” as John C states it… yet I find that as I love people and share the message of hope and restoration through the love of God, they repsond and funny thing… it sticks… they seem to grow in the Grace and knowledge of the Truth of Christ Jesus.

As for formulas, they work sometimes, yet most often I see people argue and move farther away as their own view that “God hates them” is validated and that is all they hear… and they miss the good news.

God is no longer angry with sinners as Christ took the wrath in our place. I am amazed so many “christians” argue with me over this… If Jesus did not then we are all the more damned…

iggy

38   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 4th, 2008 at 6:51 am

I haven’t see many who flaunt their salvation, but I have see many who flaunt their position in the church. I’ve seen preachers suggest that no one should treat them like anyone else because they are “God’s man”. We have someone in our extended family who says this.

39   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
September 4th, 2008 at 2:36 pm

Test

40   Eugene Roberts    http://eugeneroberts.wordpress.com
September 4th, 2008 at 3:50 pm

Those that hated and persecuted Jesus where
1. those who didn’t need the Good News or
2. for whom the Good News was not that good because it threatened their position of authority that they obviously abused.

To those in the 1st category Jesus had this to say:

Matthew 9:11-13 (New International Version)
11When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and ’sinners’?”
12On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

It is people with the same attitude as this that will hate us because of the Good News we preach today. People who think that their own righteousness is good enough – people who love to put others under a law they themselves can hardly keep. This might be from any religion – Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Atheist, Christian… The Good News goes against this and therefore will be hated together with the bearer of the news.

With those in the 2nd category Jesus had many run ins and they finally killed him as they did to most of the apostles. To people who abuse authority, be it religious or political, the Good News is not good at all for it proclaims freedom to the poor and downtrodden. The Good News proclaims Jesus Christ as Lord and not the state/religion/system. Death’s sting has been removed so the systems of this world have lost its hold of fear over its subjects that accepted the Good News. We still see this today… Communism, Muslim states, the Robert Mugabe’s, etc. They hate the Good News and the bearers of it and will kill to protect their position of power.

To the normal sinner who lives in earthly hell because of sin the Good News is truly GOOD NEWS. If such a person hate the bearer of the Gospel the method or delivery is to blame not the message of the Gospel.

41   BCP    
September 4th, 2008 at 4:07 pm

Rick,

“I haven’t see many who flaunt their salvation, but I have see many who flaunt their position in the church.”

The ordinary Christians knuckle down, work hard, support their families, their local church and are quite happy to talk about what the Lord has done for them.

Those who “flaunt their salvation” do so either hiding behind “ELECTION” or claim how important their “ministries” are.

BCP

42   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 4th, 2008 at 9:00 pm

BCP – how much more effective would our message be if it was always delivered and displayed in unusual grace? Many sinners are searching for love and acceptance, even some who seem hard and uncaring. (that was me)

The church should be known as the most loving and gracious collection of humans on the earth. Instead we have become sectarian, self righteous, and in general the moral police. Very sad…

43   pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com/
September 4th, 2008 at 9:18 pm

MG,

I am so glad that you can read my motives. Since I am only judged in that way by God, I stand before Him with a clear conscience.

As to the rest of you, I never stated you would always be hated. I said if you present the entire Gospel you would be hated by some, not by all. I agree that you must present it in a gentle manner, especially when you are preaching the law.

Jesus, Peter, Paul, etc. ALL used the law, especially with their audience. To the Jews, who knew the law, and tried to live by it, it was very effective. To the Gentiles, they needed a starting place. The message, however, can be summed up by saying repent and believe. Most people today do not think they need to repent, they think they are good people. Many more think that God is all forgiving and all loving, so He will look past their minor wrongdoings.

Even when you preach in a gentle manner, full of love and compassion, some will hate you. Our best example, Christ, was crucified. Paul and Peter both died martyrs deaths. There are thousands the world over who have been killed or imprisoned, and not because they preached a soft, compromising message, but an uncompromising one even with love, they were hated.

Look at history, friends. Examine the Word. We will be persecuted.

44   pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com/
September 4th, 2008 at 9:19 pm

Eugene,

Why are you quoting the New International PERversion?

:)

45   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
September 4th, 2008 at 10:03 pm

Most people today do not think they need to repent, they think they are good people. Many more think that God is all forgiving and all loving, so He will look past their minor wrongdoings.

This is kind of a tangent, but this is one thing that kind gets on my nerves. I think if I weren’t a Christian, and someone told me that God was holding “minor wrongdoings” against me, I would have serious doubts about the way that portrays God. That makes Him seem petty and, well, small. It’s like He’s purposely withholding forgiveness until we come groveling to Him. I would also question why God would require perfection from people He knows can’t be perfect.

I guess it’s gets down to the whole atonement thing once again. I think an understanding of the law is important in understanding what Christ did on the cross, but the way it’s typically portrayed by Christians seems ery muddled to me. First of all, the law wasn’t the enemy. Jews loved the law because it was from God. God didn’t keep a record of rights and wrongs in the OT even – Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness.

The law was simply powerless in of itself to change hearts and to conquer death. Only Christ could do that. Only Christ could fully negate the effects of the Fall. The sacrificial system laid out in the OT was a pointer to Christ’s sacrifice, but it could not take away sin.

So I guess my point is that it’s one thing for people to get angry because of the absurdity of the message of the Kingdom – a Kingdom where losers win and the strong are really week, but it’s another thing for people to get angry because of a poor presentation on our part.

46   nc    
September 4th, 2008 at 10:29 pm

RE: “of course, the potty mouthed NC…”

huh?

first off, “of course”? What do you know about what is a matter practice for me?

Second, I just asked a question. RA and others made clear what they thought the answer was.

But there you go, PB…

If you say that’s not what you intended, then it isn’t.
I believe you.

:)

See? Isn’t it so much easier to let things lie when someone is allowed to interpret themselves and to leave it at that?

Then again, contentiousness and controversy get squashed and being “angry for Jesus” couldn’t survive for long. So much for your friend’s “ministries”….

but, again, as far as this thread goes…I believe you.

47   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 4th, 2008 at 10:34 pm

“Most people today do not think they need to repent, they think they are good people.”

That is why we have the good news that God so loved the world and gave His Son for them. And that is also why it is a lie to say Christ only died for a very few. Repentance is changing your mind, and Jesus said “If I be lifted up…”

Notice He didn’t say “If the law be lifted up…”. We should live and preach Jesus and His message of grace to a lost world, many of whom are searching for meaning.

And when you say this:

“Many more think that God is all forgiving and all loving, so He will look past their minor wrongdoings.”

That is just stating the obvious, because almost all unsaved people believe that. But we should never revel in that, because the only reason I will not spend eternity in hell is because of His gift of grace. I hate and reject all mocking and debasing of any unsaved person, because when we do that we mock the grace in which we stand.

Let us be clothed in humility, preferring one another, and let us lift up Jesus, not Moses.

48   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
September 4th, 2008 at 10:37 pm

Actually, NC, I don’t know WHAT PB meant by calling me Dick, in answer to your question, I only stated a fact: “The ONLY people in my life who have EVER called me that name are “Christian” ODMs online and non-Christians both online and in real life.”

Just to be clear. If PB says he meant nothing by it, I have no proof otherwise. Others have indeed framed that name in such a way as to allude to something else. Kind of sad.

RA

49   M.G.    
September 4th, 2008 at 10:39 pm

PB,

I said nothing about your motives. But I said something about your intent.

That is an important distinction. It’s important because there is nothing unfair about talking realistically about what someone may have intended when they call someone “Dick” when their name is Richard.

We are all adults here. We know what dick means. We know that Richard has never gone by anything other than Richard. And we know how it sounds when you call him Dick out of the blue.

Didn’t you think about that?

Are you denying the thought ever crossed your mind?

I wrote what I did because I surmised that your intent was to be a bit inflammatory. This, moreover, is consistent with your previous behavior, and, frankly, poor temper.

I’m glad that your conscience is clean before God. But as far as I’m concerned, you have the maturity of a middle-schooler. Maybe Jesus is proud.

Probably not.

50   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 4th, 2008 at 10:40 pm

I want everyone to call me “the Grand, High, Exalted, Mystic, Ruler” from now on. :cool:

OK, just Rick.

51   M.G.    
September 4th, 2008 at 10:54 pm

PB,

Finally, why the sarcasm? I hate sarcasm. It’s cheap, easy, and most of the time it takes life away, it doesn’t give it.

I prefer straight-shooters. It goes with the whole maturity thing…

52   Sandman    
September 4th, 2008 at 11:21 pm

PB,

I never stated you would always be hated. I said if you present the entire Gospel you would be hated by some, not by all.

Actually, you’re all over the map. You did, in a bottom line tone in #15, say “you will be hated.” Now, when called out, the weasle words appear.

That’s just like what happened with you earlier this year when you expressed a desire for the the continued persecution of people who divorce and later remarry. When you say stuff like that, it shows, in spite of what you may say to the contrary, you have no love.

Or, more charitably, you tend to be a bit rash and don’t think things through completely.

A pastor with that flaw can do a lot of damage.

53   Eugene Roberts    http://eugeneroberts.wordpress.com
September 5th, 2008 at 12:51 am

Pastorboy, which PERversion do you think is closer to the original?

How do you explain Paul saying that to the Gentiles who had no law he lived like one who had on law to live by in order to rate some? If he did not preach the law to those people how could they then be saved? Would they be false converts?

54   nc    
September 5th, 2008 at 12:57 am

RA,

I didn’t mean to imply anything about you or your thoughts.

I just was stating that I asked a question and got your answer to that question.

Others on this thread have raised with PB the specific issue of the perceived back handed insult by him

however it ends up working out the convo on this is a great opportunity to demonstrate to PB a principle of fairness when “interpreting” a person (as I have) OR to call him out if he did “cross a line” (as others have).

55   nc    
September 5th, 2008 at 12:58 am

Sandman,

you’re missing it, brother.
Such misanthropy is a sign of being loving…and true righteousness.

;)

56   BCP    
September 5th, 2008 at 4:34 am

Rick,

“The church should be known as the most loving and gracious collection of humans on the earth. Instead we have become sectarian, self righteous, and in general the moral police. Very sad…”

Totally agreed!

Pastorboy,
I just followed your link. You criticise the CRN.INFO posts, yet you comment a fair bit here. I know that Ken Silva and Ingrid comment here as well.

I find this ironic – if you and fellow ODMers dislike this “brand” of “Christianity” – and write endless materials to condemn it, why bother interact with CRN.INFO people in the first place. Your minds are already made up.

57   pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 7:59 am

BCP, NC, et.al.

1. I never said all, I said you will.
2. In all of my witnessing encounters, I have had only two heated exchanges. I cannot say from personal experience that these people hated me, just vehemetly disagreed.
3. In my town, I know I am shunned, not because I am a bad guy to hang around or golf with, but because I make very clear the Gospel message that Jesus died for sinners, and that we all must repent and believe the Gospel. I think that God would call that hate (see 1 John)
4. Not knowing your motives, I will not attribute hate to you, however, some, not all, have shown hate towards me and other ODMs.

Eugene,

I was being completely facitious. I like the NIV.

58   pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 8:02 am

Eugene,

If a person is already under heavy conviction, and knows he has offended God, the Law does not need to be brought in. If a person demonstrates by his words that he is full of pride and self righteousness, then the law must be brought in to hold up a mirror of truth to that person.

59   Eugene Roberts    http://eugeneroberts.wordpress.com
September 5th, 2008 at 8:47 am

Pastorboy, sorry I missed your joke… :D

If a person demonstrates by his words that he is full of pride and self righteousness, then the law must be brought in to hold up a mirror of truth to that person.

People like this usually find some loophole to squeeze through and they will still see themselves righteous or at least pretend to be in order not to lose face. In the end it is only the Holy Spirit that convicts any human of sin, not the law. That still does not answer my question about Paul stating that to those without law he lives as without law. It seem to me that he preached the Gospel to these people without mentioning the law? What do you think?

1 Corinthians 9:19-23 (New International Version)

19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

BTW, something that always bothered me about this scripture is that it appears that Paul is not being authentic. He pretends not to live by the law while he actually is. That is strange, don’t you think?

60   BCP    
September 5th, 2008 at 9:03 am

Pastorboy,

1. I never said all, I said you will.
2. In all of my witnessing encounters, I have had only two heated exchanges. I cannot say from personal experience that these people hated me, just vehemetly disagreed.
3. In my town, I know I am shunned, not because I am a bad guy to hang around or golf with, but because I make very clear the Gospel message that Jesus died for sinners, and that we all must repent and believe the Gospel. I think that God would call that hate (see 1 John)
4. Not knowing your motives, I will not attribute hate to you, however, some, not all, have shown hate towards me and other ODMs.

#1. – I do not understand your comment here.
#2. – And when they “vehemently disagree”, do you stick around, trying to win the debate?
#3. – There is a big different between preaching to incite hate, and preaching to win souls.
#4. – I do not hate you, simply because I do not know you. I also know that (and thanks for pointing out 1 John)…

“He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.” 1 John 2:9

Perhaps ODMers might wish to consider that verse.

However, you still haven’t clarified for me why do you and other ODMers bother interact with CRN.INFO people in the first place. Your minds are already made up. Is there a reason(s)?

61   pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
September 5th, 2008 at 9:13 am

Eugene,
I think that Paul was saying in context that he lived in their context. He was free, for example, to eat pork in the presence of Gentiles, because it meant nothing to them. But to the Jews, he could not eat pork. When it came to the law, Paul was not bound to it. He was also not placing the law on to those without the law, but used it as a tool, a mirror, to stimulate conscience.

BCP,

So that by my presence I might correct error as I see it, informed by the scripture. Also, that some may be edified, built up, corrected, or perhaps even saved.

62   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
September 5th, 2008 at 9:25 am

I don’t mind being hated…but I don’t revel in it.

63   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 9:43 am

PB,

I think that Paul was saying in context that he lived in their context.

I agree, and this is called “contextualizing”… which I believe you and many of your ODM friends are against. THis is what my friends and I are talking about when Ken and Ingrid and other write is so wrong to do… there it is right in the bible… and we are told it is wrong… and you agree with us…

I think this is point # 100 where you seem to disagree with Ken and company and agree with me on something…. yet you hate me and love Ken… go figure

iggy

64   pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
September 5th, 2008 at 9:45 am

#2, RE: Joe Brummer:

lying lips are an abomination to God, His Word clearly states that the future of all liars, (and others) will be in the lake of fire:

Revelation 21:8 (ESV)

8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

God names few other sins as an abomination, or as detestable in his sight. One of them is homosexuality.

But, the good news is, Jesus Christ died for those who lie, as well as those who lie with their own gender. All we must do is confess (agree) with God that it is sin (whatever that sin is) repent (turn from) that sin, and place our trust in Christ.

Jesus loves you, Joe, but if you stand before Him on the day of Judgment without His justification on your behalf, you will be judged guilty by Him and sent to the lake of fire. I pray you will respond to His love and grace!

65   pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
September 5th, 2008 at 9:47 am

63 Iggy

I do not hate you.

Contextualization that is appropriate does not include changing the Word of God.

66   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 9:48 am

I feed on hatred – I welcome it and embrace it as a brother. I deserve hatred, much more than I have been given to date. Hatred energizes me and makes me sleep well at night.

I love to make mention of hateful e-mails so you can know how much I am hated. I will let you know I am hated because I stand for truth. Hatred defines me and I proudly attract it. I am in fact a hate-martyr.

Maybe someday I will find some room for love, but then again, that is compromise. :)

67   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 9:49 am

BTW,

In my mind there is a huge difference between someone having their family murdered in front of them or being burned, torn apart, stoned, whipped, cut by machetes, and on and on and having your blog removed by your ISP…

Can anyone else see why I think that ODM misuse the Martyrs for their own cause?

I mean I doubt someone fed to lions was thinking, “I hope this helps me in my ministry.” Or “Boy this should drive blog hits.” as he watches his family murderer for his faith….

I just see a huge disconnect and what I see an Americanized version of persecution… I doubt most of us have ever encountered “real” persecution…

I was once beat up because of my faith… yet… I don’t even count that as persecution… just a guy who had a chip on his shoulder…

iggy

68   Eugene Roberts    http://eugeneroberts.wordpress.com
September 5th, 2008 at 9:52 am

Pastorboy, do you really hate Iggy? I do not think you do. You two are really funny sometimes reading things into each others words and then responding to what you think the other one said or meant to say. I think there is a lot of things you two agree on, much more than what you disagree on. I think I’m going to start a list…

1. Love Jesus
2. … … Actually #1 is enough :)

69   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 9:52 am

PB,

I do not hate you.

Contextualization that is appropriate does not include changing the Word of God.

1. Your actions speak much louder than your words.

2. I know of not one person in my camp that changes the word of God and mean that as in “Contextualization”.

3. I see the ODM changing the word of God and twisting it to fit their personal context almost every day I interact with them…

So again, 101, 102. 103…

Reason that you are in the wrong camp…

iggy

70   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 9:54 am

Eugene

It is enough for me… I have never stated I hate PB>.. from the first time I interacted with him it was only to clarify his “squishy” “jello nailed to the wall” theology…

iggy

71   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 9:56 am

Guys – just because you do not actually hate someone is moot. Do you actually LOVE them?

That is our command, not just to be free from hate.

72   pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
September 5th, 2008 at 9:59 am

Iggy,

Just as you said… actions speak louder than words.

My theology is not squishy, iggs, it is progressive. As I learn more about God, my theology evolves.

Soon, you will also be at the point I am and be able to see it is not jello, it is wine that is becoming better with age.

73   pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
September 5th, 2008 at 10:00 am

Rick,

I love Iggy so much I plan to stop by his crib in Montana and take him out to coffee!

74   Eugene Roberts    http://eugeneroberts.wordpress.com
September 5th, 2008 at 10:02 am

Iggy,

Pastorboy stated that he does not hate you. Is that enough for you? You seem to go out of your way to find his motives impure. The two of you disagree on some stuff but don’t let that colour everything else you read of the other. Try some charitable reading.

(Why do I find myself defending PB again???) Sigh… :roll:

75   BCP    
September 5th, 2008 at 10:11 am

Pastorboy,

So that by my presence I might correct error as I see it, informed by the scripture. Also, that some may be edified, built up, corrected, or perhaps even saved.

By your presence? Wow, we should be honored, shouldn’t we?

Have you considered that sometimes, your help is not needed, and Christians are quite happy to get on with life?

ODMs have this imaginary view of themselves. The poor blighted Church are duped by all these false teachers. They must all be “edified, built up, corrected, and… saved” – by the ODMs, of course.

Christians have survived countless troubles, wars, persecutions, etc – without the help of ODMs.

76   pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
September 5th, 2008 at 10:14 am

ODM’s don’t save anybody. Jesus saves.

77   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
September 5th, 2008 at 10:18 am

PB: … lying lips are an abomination to God, His Word clearly states that the future of all liars, (and others) will be in the lake of fire…

RA: You’ve just condemned to hell a whole lot of your ODM friends…..I would prefer to hope for the best, and pray that in time they will repent, and cease their lies.

RAbanes

78   pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
September 5th, 2008 at 10:21 am

RA

I have not condemned anybody, the Word of God stated thus. And if they are liars, then they will be judged, But I just prefer to examine myself.

I would encourage you to do the same, my friend. Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord should examine themselves to see if they are in the faith!

79   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 10:23 am

Everyone has lied before and after salvation. That verse means unforgiven liars.

I am a forgiven liar who has sometimes lied after I was saved and was forgiven.

80   BCP    
September 5th, 2008 at 10:26 am

Pastorboy,

ODM’s don’t save anybody. Jesus saves.

As long as you and your ODM friends remember that!

81   Eugene Roberts    http://eugeneroberts.wordpress.com
September 5th, 2008 at 10:26 am

Rick Frueh is a liar! :shock:

82   Opus    
September 5th, 2008 at 10:41 am

PB,
as to comment #78,why do you feel the need to examine everyone else?Even when they express a faith that is within the bounds of historic orthodoxy you still examine them just because they dont express the born again “experience” the same way you do.
Opus

83   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 10:44 am

Gene – way to state the obvious, real in depth journalism! :lol:

Gene is a liar calling another liar a liar!

84   BCP    
September 5th, 2008 at 10:49 am

Re: #60, #75 and #82

Opus,
That was what I was trying to get at with Pastorboy.

Pastorboy,
I will repeat Opus’s question, “why do you feel the need to examine everyone else?”

85   pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
September 5th, 2008 at 11:06 am

Opus, BCP

I do, but as Christians are we not also called to judge the actions of others who call themselves brothers?

It is because I am concerned for their conversion. I am passionate for everyone to be saved!

86   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
September 5th, 2008 at 11:07 am

Rick:
Is it p0ssible to “love” someone, but not really “like” them? Just askin’.

87   BCP    
September 5th, 2008 at 11:10 am

Pastorboy,

Like I said earlier, have you considered that sometimes, your help is not needed, and Christians are quite happy to get on with life?

Shall I judge you then? I, too, am concerned for your salvation.

88   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 11:13 am

Keith – a great question. I believe that to love someone you do not like we must pray and allow the Spirit to letus see them as Christ sees them. We also must see us as we were and are without God’s grace, and ask the Spirit to remove all judgment and unforgiveness.

I have heard women testify how God has allowed them to love their molesting fathers, or rapists, or as in Elizabeth Elliot’s case love the murderers of her husband. I contend we often do not try to love and are content with flesh driven emotions.

89   pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
September 5th, 2008 at 11:23 am

BCP, feel free.

90   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
September 5th, 2008 at 11:23 am

John,
This is not a slam. I am just trying to get at where you are coming from. Would you mind telling us where you went to Seminary? This is not to slam you, I am just trying to understand the perspective that has laid the foundation for what you are saying.

91   Opus    
September 5th, 2008 at 11:29 am

PB,
I am going to engage in a little judging of actions.By your actions I say you are passionate about yourself being seen as right or maybe a martyr.There is something else going on with you than what you claim.
Opus

92   nc    
September 5th, 2008 at 11:30 am

#57:

Thanks for clarifying, PB, but I don’t have a dog in this hunt about “being hated”…

However, I don’t think people avoiding you because of your message necessarily constitutes “hate”.

93   pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
September 5th, 2008 at 11:38 am

Joe, Why are you always checking my credentials?

I have never graduated from seminary, however, I am pursuing a Masters in Biblical Studies and Christian Leadership, and a PHd in the same from Masters.

94   nc    
September 5th, 2008 at 11:51 am

RE: I am just trying to get at where you are coming from. Would you mind telling us where you went to Seminary? This is not to slam you, I am just trying to understand the perspective that has laid the foundation for what you are saying.

That would be the answer, PB.
It isn’t always determinative, but one’s schooling can indicate a “school of thought” that can help your interlocutors understand the unspoken framework/assumptions that shape where you are coming from.

That being said, I think your choice of Master’s does put a lot into perspective.

Not a slam.
Just an observation.

Would you agree, Joe?

95   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
September 5th, 2008 at 12:13 pm

Rick:
Thanks for the response. I gotta tell ya (and I’m sure the road goes both ways)–there are some people in my life that I just don’t like. Can’t stand to be around them. One of them is a family member…BUT, I try to show them the love of Christ; I pray for them and ask Him to change their heart and actions—AND I pray that God will help me to see my own shortcomings, etc. as well.

Some days, it would be easier to be a pagan! 8^)>

96   Christian P    http://www.churchvoices.com
September 5th, 2008 at 12:15 pm

PB,

Where are you getting your degree from?

I am currently attending Lincoln Christian Seminary and am working on my MDiv. Not that I care about the degree so much as I care about my own growth and refreshing.

97   Neil    
September 5th, 2008 at 12:32 pm

It is obvious from Scripture that hatred may come and we should not be surprised by it. It’s a hyper-leap in logic (not to mention very poor hermeneutics) to go from the possibility/expectation to hatred being and acid test for preaching the full Gospel.

As happens so many times, moderation is thrown out the window in a zeal to oppose. While we should not compromise the Gospel to be liked by the world, neither should we be surprised if the world, even in its lostness, admires our faith.

Didn’t Christ say as much?

Neil

98   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 12:39 pm

PB,

My theology is not squishy, iggs, it is progressive. As I learn more about God, my theology evolves.

That my friend is called… emerging…

iggy

99   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
September 5th, 2008 at 12:45 pm

“That my friend is called… emerging… “

Or maybe…”grow[ing] in grace.” (I have stricken the words “emerge” and “purpose” in any form from my vocabulary!)
8^)>

100   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 12:46 pm

Eugene,

PB’s actions speak loudly to me in what he says to me. He has threatened me physically at least twice in two different threads… though he will say it was a misunderstanding… nope I understand him clearly.

He wants to go out for coffee… and what will it accomplish… even if we agree 99% he will twist and pervert and lie about what I believe as he does on his blog…

I will not have coffee with someone that openly and unrepentantly slanders others. I do not need the aggravation.

Now, if his actions had been more civil, I would not be “avoiding” him…

I hope as I have pointed out over and over in this thread, that we do agree and he seems to miss that almost every word he states is not in line with the typical ODM… he seems very much more emerging than he will admit.

If he states publicly that he is sorry for slandering me and threatening me, I may consider… but it seems that as I stated it would be a waste of my time to have coffee with him as to the type of character he is.

I always forgive him… yet forgiveness does not equal being stupid when it comes to those who act as PB does.

iggy

101   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 12:50 pm

Keith,

emerging seems to be much the same as growing in grace as far as I have found… most emerging folk are the most gracious and loving people and truly care for those to come to relationship with Jesus… yet they do not do it with their own agenda, they do it Jesus’ agenda..

This was the thing that attracted me to emerging… and why I left the form of church most ODM’s promote.

:smile:

iggy

102   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
September 5th, 2008 at 12:52 pm

I do, but as Christians are we not also called to judge the actions of others who call themselves brothers?

The thing is that in most cases, unless you really spend time with someone, you aren’t in a place where you can really hold them accountable. On some level we should exercise mutual concern for one another, but we also have to respect each other’s freedom in Christ as well.

Most of the criticism I see Christians writing about other Christians doesn’t seem to be based in genuine concern for that person. It seems to be more based on the desire to prove one’s particular theological system or stance correct.

103   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 12:59 pm

Phil,

I would love to have coffee with you sometime…

:lol:

iggy

104   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 1:00 pm

BTW…

Rick and I do disagree on many things… yet I do not feel threatened or hated by him at all… I would love to have coffee with him…

iggy

105   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 1:15 pm

I would also sit with Ken Silva and have coffee… at least he has not threatened me… well he may have called down the wrath of God on me once or twice, but really I am not too worried about his god’s wrath… Jesus took that upon him for me…

iggy

106   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 1:18 pm

Iggy – I don’t drink coffee, I’m a Christian. :)
I don’t drink alcohol. I drink lots of lemon water. I’ll meet you at Subway – cheesesteak!

Keith – I hear ya. I have a son in law…never mind. We all have challenges in our lives which can be used to make us more like Christ. Many times they make me more unlike Him! :evil:

107   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 1:20 pm

Rick,

Just a chance to meet you in person would be great. It would not matter where we go drink or eat…

:smile:

iggy

108   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 1:21 pm

BTW Rick,

I am intiminated by your son… he sounds like he is built like a brick biffy…

Would not want to make him angry at me… :lol:

iggy

109   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 1:24 pm

intiminated should be intimidated…

110   IWanthetruth    
September 5th, 2008 at 4:04 pm

Whew, my stonmach hurts, my head hurts, my heart hurts, my eyes hurt.

What a thread to follow. Everyone get together have a BBQ and make up!

111   Neil    
September 5th, 2008 at 5:01 pm

PastorBoy,

When you say “If you preach the full, biblical Gospel you will be hated” you are setting up a universal cause and effect. Two things can be taken from this; that hate will always follow and if you are not hated your Gospel is not full.

This is, of course, absurd. In subsequent posts you made the point that this is not what you meant – so that case is settled.

Iggy,
Pastorboy has said he does not hate you, so no further claims like this need be made – unless he says something to the contrary.

Opus,
We do not call brothers in Christ “pathetic” on this site. Please address the argument, not the person.

Neil

112   Scotty    http://scottysplace-scotty.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 5:04 pm

PB: “I do, but as Christians are we not also called to judge the actions of others who call themselves brothers?”

I find it interesting, in the 21st chapter of John, when Peter in essence is asking Jesus, “what about that guy?” Then Jesus tells him, more or less, it’s none of his business!!

John 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

113   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 5:06 pm

I do not hate Iggy. (I do hate Neil!)

Are the only people who do not hate you when you preach the gospel are those who get saved? I don’t see many people hate Billy Graham, and I got saved under his preaching.

I believe we can share the gospel without setting ourselves up for hatred. I think that Christians hating each other is a bigger problem than the unsaved hating us.

114   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 5:17 pm

Neil,

Really I could care less if PB hated me or not… that would be his issue with God and he would have to deal with Him…

I already acknowledged PB does not say he hates me, yet I wonder if anyone here could deny that his actions and words are often “hateful”.

All i am doing is explaining again why i will not have coffee with him… is that OK with you?

SHeesh… if I do not feel safe about a situation, why would you want me to go into it?

I will not have coffee with PB whether he stated he hates me or not… I do not trust him or his words at this point.

Why is that so hard for some of you to grasp?

iggy

115   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 5:22 pm

I would gladly do lunch with just about anyone. How about me, Iggy, John, Ken, and Brian MacLaren?

No problem.

116   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
September 5th, 2008 at 5:30 pm

John,
I honestly am not trying to check your credentials. I would absolutely agree with you NC in #94 (The comment that followed yours). Where a person pursues their education can effect how they view certain issues. I’m trying to better understand where you are coming from, that’s all.

117   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 5:44 pm

Joe,

I honestly am not trying to check your credentials.

So what if you were? John should not be ashamed of his credentials and where he received them… in fact since John is publicly writing about how others are so bad theologically, he should put out his credentials so that others can see from where he is coming from…

Frankly I can’t make head or tail where he is coming from…

iggy

118   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 5:45 pm

Rick,

If you can arrange such a meeting I would be there… but only for you.

iggy

119   IWanthetruth    
September 5th, 2008 at 5:48 pm

OK, there has been alot of smack going on here with many of you. I present the following verses and would like anyones or all commentary of these verse and what you think the scripture is saying. I realize that I have taken them out of a broader context, but let’s talk scripture for now, ok?

Luk 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you [from their company], and shall reproach [you], and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake. KJV Luk 6:22 “Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man! ESV

Jhn 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. KJV Jhn 7:7 “The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil. ESV

Jhn 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you. KJV Jhn 15:18 “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. ESV

1Jo 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. KJV 1Jo 3:13 Do not be surprised, brothers,[fn3] that the world hates you. ESV

120   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 5:51 pm

Iwanthetruth,

Great verses… and a good point… why is the world hating someone?

Is it because they are doing things to earn it… or is it because the world hates Jesus?

iggy

121   IWanthetruth    
September 5th, 2008 at 5:56 pm

Billy,

I don’t know of anyone who flaunts their salvation or who revel in being hated. Perhaps there are some, but I don’t know of any. I certainly hope I don’t flaunt my salvation, but am always ready to give an account to whoever will listen.

As far as reveling in being hated, I am hated. You would not believe some of the email and comments (never posted here) that are direct attacks, full of vileness and hatred. Why do people do that? It hurts every time. These hate filled comments and emails have teeth and claws. It is no fun to deal with it. However, it causes me to spend much time in prayer and worship I assure you.

In Christ

Mike Ratliff

Last thing to present… The quote in the OP was from the statement I put in the box. Written by the blog owner. I think if you all go back and read the post of the site this came from and read the comments you might get a better understanding what this guy was saying, How many read the other sites post?

122   IWanthetruth    
September 5th, 2008 at 6:03 pm

Iggy,

1Jo 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s[fn2] seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

1Jo 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

I think this is one aspect. The world is a place of evil and evil is resident in mans heart (matt 15?). I think because we as Christians as one part of our life are to live lives of holiness and righteousness, we are telling the world that the things the world lives by are not Godly. The world does not want to hear that. The world wants to revel in it’s sinful nature. The world will hate us because Jesus is in us and calling us to a lifestyle that is the opposite of the world. Just one of the many aspects of our lives that teh world hates.

123   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
September 5th, 2008 at 6:09 pm

IWantTHEtruth,
I’ve had some of my personal comments called hateful and vile b/c I said I disagreed. The author of the original OP has to have some sort of disorder. If you disagree you are consigned to hell and branded mean and hateful.

124   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 6:09 pm

Again… is Mike hated becuase of his attitude or because of Jesus?

I have talked with Mike a few times and he cannot stand having anyone disagree with him… he goes straight to “you are not saved”…

So, again I ask… If we are hated by what we do and how WE treat people are we truly being hated as the Bible is stating?

I think it falls in line more with what 1 Peter 2 states…

19. For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God.
20. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.
21. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

125   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 6:10 pm

In the blogasphere there are people who hate all kinds of camps. MacLaren receives hate mail, MacArthur receives hate mail, and everyone in between.

I do not believe thatwas what Jesus was referring to, hate filled communication between Christians who differ on things. But I do believe Mike Ratliff receives hate mail from unbelievers.

But hate mail and hateful words to me are next to nothing. I always remember the martyrs, the apostles, and the cross itself.

126   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 6:11 pm

Hmmm two witnesses…

iggy

127   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
September 5th, 2008 at 6:11 pm

But I do believe Mike Ratliff receives hate mail from unbelievers.

It’s probably b/c he’s so nice to them when they come by

128   IWanthetruth    
September 5th, 2008 at 6:13 pm

Jhn 15:17 “These things I command you, so that you will love one another.
Jhn 15:18 “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.
Jhn 15:19 “If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
Jhn 15:20 “Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.
Jhn 15:21 “But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me.
Jhn 15:22 “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have been guilty of sin,[fn3] but now they have no excuse for their sin.
Jhn 15:23 “Whoever hates me hates my Father also.
Jhn 15:24 “If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin, but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father.
Jhn 15:25 “But the word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: ‘They hated me without a cause.’
Jhn 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.
Jhn 15:27 “And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.

I think it is important to keep in perspective what the word tells us. Vs 20 gives us a perspective that we are servants of the master and if we are conected to Him through our belief and acceptence and desire to follow His commands and ways, while the world will not, we will be hated because they hate Jesus. We are “guilty by association” (love it)!

129   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 6:15 pm

I receive hate mail from believers… and a few atheists.

iggy

130   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 6:23 pm

I have received very few angry e-mails or comments on FJL. I guess I am not preaching the true gospel. Does sending yourself hate mail count as persecution? :cool:

131   IWanthetruth    
September 5th, 2008 at 6:26 pm

Mat 15:19 “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.
Mat 15:20 “These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”

Mar 7:20 And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him.
Mar 7:21 “For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,
Mar 7:22 “coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness.
Mar 7:23 “All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”

These are the words of Jesus. Man is full of evil. No two ways about it. And when we become followers of Christ we are now the opposite of the world. We nolonger live as teh world and we will be hated and reviled because we follow a different way.

132   IWanthetruth    
September 5th, 2008 at 6:36 pm

Joe Martino Says:
September 5th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
IWantTHEtruth,
I’ve had some of my personal comments called hateful and vile b/c I said I disagreed. The author of the original OP has to have some sort of disorder. If you disagree you are consigned to hell and branded mean and hateful.

Well sometimes it seems you just can’t win by loosing. Let’s face it there really is a war going on inside the church itself. We don’t seem to take the scriptures and what Jesus commanded us very seriously or maybe too seriously. Next thing we know we are all in arms. I mean I am sorry but this thread in and of itself seems to produce some pretty strong statements that, to me, are far from loving. Some one says something out of place and then we have to defend, then the defense becomes nasty and the next person defends or someone sticks up for the other. Before long there is a never ending cycle of “words: were the tongue is no longer being tamed and it is sad to read.

Personally I really enjoy hearing what you all have to say when it becomes a ” lesson” or “study” of some kind based on scripture. Maybe you guys are having fun but it sure doesn’t sound like it.

My two cents and if I have stepped on toes I apologize. I just think there is so much more important things to do and discuss. Maybe I don’t understand debating.

133   IWanthetruth    
September 5th, 2008 at 6:37 pm

AND I AM GUILTY OF THIS EVERYDAY so I am speaking to myself as well.!!!!!!

134   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 6:48 pm

It is possible to be a Christian and not be a Christian.

135   IWanthetruth    
September 5th, 2008 at 7:11 pm

Rick

Are you making a general statement meaning that we can call ourselves Christians and still act like we are not or are you making a statemet at me personally?

136   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
September 5th, 2008 at 7:33 pm

It is a general statement that too often all of us are Christians but do not behave as Christians.

We should not only confess to being a Christian, we should BE a Christian. I fear we are comfortable with a confession of faith without striving to exhibit the life of Christ.

137   IWanthetruth    
September 5th, 2008 at 8:19 pm

I agree with you and I believe that as we strive to “walk in the spirit” that God will and does bring those things to light that are displeasing to him so that we can grow and mature to look more like Christ.

We must be a people who will allow the fruit of the Holy Spirit assimilate in every part of our being so that we can be more like Him and be an example to the world.

God is Love. He will come some day to judge but meanwhile we must be Love to those around us, in action and in speech.

138   pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com/
September 6th, 2008 at 9:25 am

Just for the record,

I have never threatened Iggy.

I told him that If I were Ingrid’s husband, I would be driving out to his place and settling things man to man.

In my world, that means face to face. In my Christian world that means having a cup of coffee in a public place and having a very clear discussion about boundaries when speaking about my wife.

It was Iggy who mentioned he was a 320 pounder who used to hang out with Hells Angels that sounded like a threat of physical harm…

Just updating this thread with accurate reporting….

And BTW, a more gracious reading of this thread would have seen that I never said ‘always’ I said ‘will’ If we stand for Jesus we will be persecuted, because those walking in the darkness love the darkness, and they hate the light.

139   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 6th, 2008 at 9:34 am

PB,

If I took it as a threat then why not at least apologize for it… sheesh. As far as accurate you are still twisting it again… I also stated repeatedly I am that size and my past to state that even though that was true of me, I WOULD NOT FIGHT YOU in regards to YOUR THREAT against me.

Please if you want to be accurate, do not lie about the thread as you repeated have.

I am done with this… You have once again proven my point as to your continual slander and why I think you hate me. If you did not lie all the time I might consider that you do not hate me, but to me, twisting my words and in fact mocking my testimony of what Jesus has done in my life shows me I am correct in my thoughts concerning you and your hate and lies and even disrespect for the working of the Holy Spirit in my life.

To me you mocking what Jesus has done in my life is the sickest thing of all…

And still you will not have the privilege of having coffee with me.

iggy

140   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
September 6th, 2008 at 9:36 am

Please would someone put PB on moderation for his continual lies against me and others. I am very tired of defending myself from him and feel he is just here to cause division with his lies against others.

Please do something about him…

iggy

141   BCP    
September 6th, 2008 at 9:52 am

Pastorboy,

In the nicest possibly way, please go somewhere else.

Try commenting at Ingrid, Ken, et al … they are more your “type”.

Opps, they may not allow comments…

142   pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com/
September 6th, 2008 at 9:52 am

Igs, I did. go back to the post.

I am not lying, it is still on there.

I am sad you will not have coffee with me. How about some Chai? or do they have that in Montana?