“Yes, our allegiance is first to he cross”

No, our allegience is ONLY to the cross.

I will leave it alone now, but I do feel strongly about American narcissim.

Obama refuses to show allegiance, at least to the flag. He is not a patriot, I do not trust him with our country. One more reason the scene of him going down to ground zero made me feel ill.

Our only allegiance is to the cross, but we must thank God for the freedom he has given us, and we must pray for our leaders. and we must preach the Gospel, for 144,000 other people died worldwide on September 11th, many of whom died without Christ.

It is good to pause and remember. It is also good to then remember beyond our country to our brothers and sisters around the world. And then to remember the lost who are dead in their sins and need Jesus to receive life.

What happened on 9/11 was a tragedy to be sure. And we have faced many more and will face many more tragedies. We should mourn with those who mourn, we should carry eachother’s burdens, we should seek after the good of others. But let us not believe for a second that there should be any kind of border (i.e. geographic, age, sex, nationality, social status, income, etc.) whatsover to the way we think about and treat others.

Sorry forgot to post the link of Obama refusing to salute the flag

lol… go to fightthesmears.com.

Besides, there have been plenty of times Bush and McCain have A, not saluted the flag because it’s improper for civilians to do so (I know this because I’m Active Duty), B have not place their hands over their hearts nor said the pledge, and C have not worn flag pins (which is meaningless anyways). And he’s said the pledge, worn the flagpin, and put his hand over his heart plenty of times before and after the campaign. Even a RUDIMENTARY amount of research would prove this. I’m not doing your homework for you though. You probably think Obama called Palin a pig too, huh?

So think what you want, John.

As for your second link…do you know how many air crafts don’t have the American flag on them? It’s a campaign plane…go figure. Big deal. You say he’s not a patriot, I say you’re lying.

How did this turn in to a political discussion anyways? Who cares.

Obama refuses to show allegiance, at least to the flag.

Big Bird is in my pants and I would like to buy some beachfront property in Iowa!

Thanks for showing us what a “low-information voter” looks like, Pastorboy.

I have a picture of him not saluting the flag. It is fact.

Allow me to teach you about America, Pastorboy:

It is customary to put one’s hand on one’s heart during the Pledge of Allegiance, but not the national anthem. That picture was taken during the national anthem, Pastorboy. However, it’s not customary to “salute” the flag during either. No one in that picture, Pastorboy, is “saluting” the flag.

Thank you for letting me teach you about America. Maybe one day you’ll be able to pass the citizenship test!

Also, honeybear? Truthorfiction isn’t the reputable factchecking site, Factcheck.org and Snopes are.

I understand that people like you support creating your own version of reality when actual reality doesn’t mesh with your prejudiced view of reality, but here in the real world, silly things like that don’t fly.

Good night!

Phil is right.

These are style over substance issues designed to play on people’s irrational fears and “values”.

I guess the thing that gets me is that you see people in tears during a patriotic song, but these people remain unmoved during a worship service. It seems something is wrong with that picture. Now, I am grateful for the country and the fact that it is unique in many ways, but I honestly have trouble pledging allegiance to its flag. Our citizenship is in heaven, meaning that is where our rights and freedoms come from. They don’t come from the Constitution, as great as a document that might be.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

If you’re heart beats fast for the flag but you don’t have the same and MORE of a visceral response to Jesus, the cross, resurrection, etc….yikes! Talk about “man-centered”, sinful and bankrupt.

Some might say you’re not even a Christian…

Not me…

but, just say’n….

We as the church have become “Americanized” over the years to our shame. We should not hate America or any country, but our calling is to shine the light of Jesus to the world.

The Bible does command us to be good neighbors in our communities and to pray for the country’s leaders.

PB – I do not salute or pledge to the falg, I do not sing the national anthem, and I do not vote. Does that make me any less a follower of Jesus Christ? There seems to be a notion that God deals with countries today, and that He holds America in high esteem. God holds the souls of men everwhere in high esteem and does not consider their national citizenship.

Let there be no mistake, the police and firemen and others were heros on 9/11. But that day was not a rally call to the church to strike back, it should have been a call to repentence for all of us and a renewed committment and gratitude to our Wonderful Christ!

Thank you, Joe C., for being balanced. I as always admire someone who puts their lives on the line and you are no exception. Politics and nationalism aside, you are a hero on some level as well.

I pray mercy for the people of Texas.

Thanks to some of you for taking Chris L’s simple reminder and turning it into an unrelated discussion aka “I’m a better American than you.”

Some of you need to give it a rest already. You know what “it” is.

Military chapels are the WORST about this. I dread the 4th of July at our church. I wouldn’t go that day if I didn’t have to lead ‘praises to America’ I mean “worship” that day.

Ugh, I bet it’s horrible.

I don’t know how it is where you are, but I know that in lots of places in the military, there’s a creepy attempt going on to establish Evangelical Christianity as sort of the “official religion” of the military, but it’s turning into this weird Christo-Americanism sort of bastardization of the faith.

I dunno. It grosses me out when I see an American flag in a church. It’s just not the place for it.

Uh huh.

Anyway, kids, we were talking about the Christianization of the military, right?

Evan mispoke: “It is customary to put one’s hand on one’s heart during the Pledge of Allegiance, but not the national anthem. That picture was taken during the national anthem, Pastorboy. However, it’s not customary to “salute” the flag during either. ”

Thank you for letting me teach YOU about America.
8^)>

Rick,

I only think cheering for Notre Dame makes you less of a Christian, not not saluting the flag, etc. I just think that makes you less of a patriot.

Which is what I said about Obama.

I wont vote for Him because he is not a patriot, he is a baby murderer, he does not know the first things about foreign affairs, he will retreat out of Iraq, he will screw up a frail economy further by taxes, and he will throw us into depression by placing national health care upon us.

Is that good enough?

plus, he is not a patriot. If his wife isn’t proud of the country until her little hubby gets nominated, it is no wonder they want to make us into Europe…

If I was a voter the “baby murdering” thing would be a deal breaker also.

Not that I should jump into this fray…

When I was in the military. It was customary during retreat to stop wherever you were at on base, and face the flag and come to attention. No saluting, no removing of your hat/cover, or putting your hand on your heart. Just stand at attention. If you were driving it was customary to come to a stop, turn off your radio, and remain stationary until retreat was done.

To this day I don’t salute the flag or put my hand over my heart. I come to attention and remove my hat if I’m wearing one.

Like my religion I try not to judge people on appearances when it comes to politics.

“Believe only half of what you see and none of what you hear”- A great man

“Man looks at the outward appearances God looks at the heart”-The ultimately authority on truth.

Joe C,

I don’t know you, but in my opinion ( that is all it is, an opinion) you really represent the best of the country in which I now live and more importantly, by the few posts you have written on this site you represent the His Kingdom well.

You place your life on the line for this country but you are true soldier for the Cross of Christ, just my opinion. Thank you for your comments.

Chris L,
even though you don’t moderate comments I think you need to keep an eye on the meta and close comments occassionally on some posts, again just my opinion. The computer key board with an internet connection is similar to the tongue in James 3.

I don’t know guys, I kind of think we are looking at this a little skewed or maybe with too much personal bias (me included). I am thankful that I can attend a church of my choice, and I am not required to attend a state church, that Home churches are not being raided by the government, I can speak to my students (in a public high school) about my religious beliefs, last night’s Bible study topic, etc. I am able to do these things through Christ who strengthens me, but I am not persecuted for them because of the freedoms that I have in America. Some of these things are protected by my government, some are being challenged by some in the government and a few are simply ignored by the administration of the place where I work, but the lack of persecution comes from the Christian underpinnings of American society.

And I guess that makes me very glad that I live here and I vote to elect people who will (hopefully) protect my religious freedoms. In think God does try to guide some of the leaders of America, and sometimes they even listen to him.

If an American leader is Christian I think we have a much better chance of our country doing things that please God than is I were in a country where a non-Christian was running the show.

Blessings,
-Mike

I don’t think the lipstick pig thingy was a shot at Sarah Palin, but you using the word tard- I think that was a shot at her.

Um, no.

I was always amazed at the rules and regulations concerning the flag. It should be rasied quickly and lowered slowly and ceremoniously. It must be burned when worn out. And there are as many rules as there are for golf.

Who came up with these rules? They treat the flag more carefully than they do an unborn child, which by the way has become the law of the land through the very “freedom” the flag is supposed to represent.

Thanks Chris for reminding us of what happened to us on 9\11. That is what your post was about right? I must have missed the part where you endorsed a candidate for president.

Jerry

Also, Rick, the same people who obsess over the correct treatment of the flag tend to be the most careless with the nation, its Constitution, etc.

You know I don’t really like that remark. I have several Eagle Scouts in my family. Regular calls from people asking, can the troop please retire our flag.

Kids taught to be good citizens.

But then I imagine boy scouts isn’t your thing.

I was talking about a pattern, Joe M.

Look at Congress sometime, and study who supported stupid flag-burning amendments and which congressmen bray and moan about flag pins, and note how often those same people tend vote against veterans’ medical care and body armor for our troops.

It’s all a crying joke.

BTT,

If you don’t like America, I here there are a few openings in antarctica.

Jerry

Seriously, Chris, thanks for the post on 9/11!

Your utter devotion to higher taxes breaks mine.

But Chris, seriously thanks for the post on 9/11! We need to be reminded.

BTT,

I am a registered democrat, FYI. And to be sure, I did .

Thanks Chris for the 9/11 post!

You did what?

Oh, and lots of people are “registered Democrats” who vote Republican.

They’re called Old Racists.

I voted for Hilary in the primary. I said nothing about depression. I said higher taxes. There has to money to pay for it, and if it costs GM that much how much will it cost the tax payer like me?

and if it costs GM that much how much will it cost the tax payer like me?

Part of the problem is that, in your taxes you’re already paying much, much, much more for the healthcare of the uninsured than you would be if they were covered under a governmental program. As M.G. pointed out above, we spend more of our GDP on healthcare than any other developed country, and it’s because of our private policies, not in spite of them. Our current system is set up to allow the insurance companies free reign to screw up peoples’ lives while raising rates ever higher. (Oh, I know, they’ve sold people the lie that the real culprit is “frivolous lawsuits,” but again, that’s just another shiny object to distract peoples’ attention.)

As to voting for Hillary in the primary, that’s great. Are you following her lead and supporting Obama, or are you one of those dead-ender Hillary 4 McCain’s? Not all Hillary voters were reliable Democratic voters, by any stretch of the imagination.

Jerry:

It’s obviously complicated. There are multiple ways to generate higher tax revenue, and only one involves higher taxes.

And what happens if the U.S. began spending less than 10 percent of its GDP on healthcare? Or what happens if GM doesn’t close down that latest plant and you’ve got 400 people contributing to our tax revenue as opposed to depleting in the form of unemployment benefits? And what happens when the productivity of the American worker rises with increasing levels of healthcare?

And since when does this country pay for anything? All we do is run up that tab with China with each passing day…

“As I said, Republicans are not serious people.”

Add to that Democrats and Independents and I’m declaring a three way tie!

Must jump back in again…

Currently our Social Security promises are 10 times our national debt. For the non-math majors thats an astounding 70,000,000,000,000 dollars. With over 1/4 of our population planning on retiring with in the next 10 years I think we better start thinking quickly about how to handle that.

We’ve got bigger problems economically than worrying about National Healthcare.

A few things though:

1) Insurance reform needs to happen. The best way to do that is not privatization or government oversight but allowing health care providers to opt out of insurance subsidies and programs. Also set up a protection for doctors against lawsuits and liability. Similar to the F.D.I.C. for banks. (complex explanation)

2) Those on Medicare and Medicaid will be fast tracked to specific medical facilities with government oversight. The biggest strain on tax dollars is medicare and medicaid fraudulent billing. Think community colleges but only with medical facilities.

3) National Healthcare with a privatized component. While the government pays the bills with tax payer money a private organization issues the checks and does the accounting. One way to minimize costs and maximize service is to pay doctors and hospitals in a timely manner.

4) On average just under 40% of all hospital bills go unpaid. National Healthcare would eliminate this problem.

Just a few thoughts.

MG

For all your facts or statistics, I have a few of my own.

America has by far the BEST health care in the world. We have by far the most pharmaceutical innovations in the world. Why do you suppose that is? It is called the free market, capitalism, competition.

If I was to have a need for heart surgery in England, the average wait time is 3 months. It is longer in Canada. A dear friend of mine from England was praising God that he had his heart attack while vacationing in Florida. He believes if that same event happened in England he would be dead today.

People from all over the world come to America for the health care it provides. The Mayo Clinic here in Minnesota is the frequent host of many of the worlds top dignitaries, stars, oil barons, etc. Why? Because we have the best health care that money can buy. They cannot get the quality or the speed in their own countries.

Many of the top doctors from all over the world want to practice here also. Why? Because they get paid for their success, and they don’t have to put up with all the bureaucratic BS. I have a couple of personal friends here in America that are from other countries, and they came here because this is where the most technology is, people can choose their own doctors, etc.

Now, from a selfish point of view, I would LOVE universal health care. I HATE paying 10,000 dollars a year for health insurance (and that is with a 1000 deductible and 80/20 co pay!) I am blessed to be able to afford it. I know there are may who cannot. And the truly indigent are already covered here.

What we must do is set limits on malpractice suits to pay for only the actual damage done. When premiums skyrocket, the costs are passed on to the insurance companies who pass them on to the consumer. Whenever government gets involved, you get worse coverage, slower service, and no motivation for doctors (see the public school system) to improve. Then you get long lines, no new drugs or technologies, and on down the line.

BTT,

Your politics are almost as stupid as your theology.

I’m just sayin’.

Joe, any storm yet your way? Praying for yall.

PB,

I don’t know I’d describe a nation that ranks 42 in the world (dead last among industrialized nations) for life expectancy as having the best healthcare in the world.

No, instead you’ve pointed out how our bloated, inefficient, and broken system manages to serve the wealthiest .00000001 percent of the world’s population really well. (Did you type oil barons with a straight face?) I don’t know if I would be so proud of that fact.

Regardless, these are issues upon which reasonable people can differ. I’m still interested in hearing your argument as to why Obama’s plan will cause a depression.

And the truly indigent are already covered here.

Wrong.

What we must do is set limits on malpractice suits to pay for only the actual damage done.

And I already explained that “frivolous lawsuits” are the shiny object meant to distract the most susceptible voters from the real problems.

Your politics are almost as stupid as your theology.

Heh. I deal in verifiable facts rather than make-believe, if that’s what you mean.

Believe me, for somebody to tell me they don’t like my “theology”…in my book, you’ve basically just said you don’t like my unicorns.

(Did you type oil barons with a straight face?)

Hehehe, seriously.

BTT,

Your politics are almost as stupid as your theology.

I’m just sayin’.

Once again, more grace from Pastor boy

Life expectancy, #42 as per Fox News.

(Har har)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293008,00.html

And if, God forbid, 300 Texans would lose their lives in Ike we would consider it a national tragedy. But as the church why can 50,000 Chinese die in an earthquake and it barely makes a ripple? Because we consider American lives much more important than those of other countries.

As Christians, these things should not be…

ecause we consider American lives much more important than those of other countries.

As Christians, these things should not be…

As HUMANS, these things should not be.

One doesn’t need the moral framework of Christianity to note the utter insanity of that.

Well that’s fine.

I see it as a human thing, you see it as a Christian thing, but at least we’re both concerned about it.

Doug i’m English and live here (Southampton)…

Free NHS is pushing it don’t you think?? NI goes towards it,also were one of the highest taxed countries in the world..

Everyone pays in the end

I’d say ur friends dad got lucky from my experiance ,10 years working for the NHS and 10 outside but still care work…

71: You can’t go below zero on the Kelvin scale, Rick. -273 Celcius or – 460 Farenheit puts you close to zero (absolute zero) degrees K. But we know what you mean: It’s low.

(Everyone is pouncing on the trite and off-topic, it’s raining outside, the cat is asleep, and I couldn’t help myself.)

Well, and I think the strawmen that anti-healthcare Republicans fight against in this country are anecdotal at best — every time a Republican attempts to argue against universal healthcare, they always start off by saying “Well, I have a friend in London blah blah blah, moo moo moo,” and it’s such a weak argument because no one is saying that the US would automatically adopt Canada’s system or the UK’s system or whatever else. But the fact is that we rank something like 37th in the world on our healthcare as a whole, and ALL other industrialized nations have universal healthcare of some sort.

Put simply — 36 other nations are BETTER than the US in healthcare, which is hard to accept for those Americans who are raised to believe that America is the best, no matter what.

We, as Americans, are more than capable of studying all the world’s systems, figuring out what works, tweaking here and there, and crafting a system that would work best for the United States.

The current system is a joke, so anything would be an improvement.

And don’t vomit the line again about people traveling from all over the world for medical care in the US — it’s irrelevant if 1/6 of the population doesn’t have access to it.

And don’t vomit the line again about people traveling from all over the world for medical care in the US — it’s irrelevant if 1/6 of the population doesn’t have access to it.

As a Christian, I’m concerned about the fact that there are people suffering, and I think the Church should make every effort to rectify the situation. I don’t think that it’s something that we should be depending on the government for, though. I don’t see anywhere in the Constitution where it lays the burden of providing healthcare for citizens on the federal government.

Once again, this is an issue that frustrates me, because I see Christians abdicating their own responsibility to care for the poor and the sick and trusting the government to do it.

Joe has a good point. There are a lot of things not in the Constitution… Health care, public education, police departments, fire departments, our entire regulatory state, etc. etc.

The fact is, our modern state is infinitely more complex than that envisioned by our 18th century framers.

Regardless, healthcare, like many of the issues in our time, deserves a serious conversation. (Which reminds me, PB, were you going to tell me how Obama’s healthcare plan is going to start a depression?)

Hmmm…..mebbe too late to have a moment of silence now, eh?

But, thanks Chris L. The reminder is important!!

PB,

All mandatory healthcare plans have built in credits for small businesses, allowing the government to largely bear the costs for providing healthcare to those employees.

Does it cost the government? Yes. But at a fraction of the cost of even a few months in Iraq. And even then, we’ve delayed those particular bills by deferring taxes to the next generation and financing our debtor society with the Chinese government.

Can you name one, just one, peer- edited economics article that argues that a mandatory healthcare plan will launch us into a depression? No.

Because *no one* believes it!

Furthermore, your attempts to connect mandatory healthcare to pharamaceutical innovation are absurd. What does the government’s involvement in helping to *provide* healthcare have to do with incentives to *invent* new drugs? Regardless of who is paying, drug breakthroughs will aleays be profitable! (Or would you argue that Lockheed Martin, Boeing, and Halliburton are each lacking in innovation and profits?)

Finally, please spare the condescension. It’s unchristian.

PB,

I’m not against the war? Why would you think that?

It just happens to be a fact that we’re spending 13 billion a month in Iraq.

And it is complete and utter rubbish to argue that any effort to close the 13 percent gap in uninsured Americans will magically launch us into a depression when we apparently can afford our efforts in Iraq.

These are *facts*. Nothing more, nothing less.

Joe C – I don’t care what your wife says, you have a lot of wisdom. In a secular sense I would be in favor of a strong defense, but as far as using it the leaders must have sophistication and wise nuance. The world is complex and just being a monolithic idealogue and acting on that premise can no longer be productive.

I should clarify my position…

I’m against war in the sense that I think America should never ever ever under pretty much any circumstance start an all-out war. I understand preemptive attacks to maybe destroy a terrorist cell with nukes (or something like this), but to invade a country unprovoked is unacceptable and is jingoistic to the max. We should be leading the world in peace, but I know I can’t rely on pathetic humanity to accomplish that. But that should be our goal none the less.

I believe in defending oneself and one’s people. So that is why I serve. I want to defend those who can’t defend themselves. Unfortunately this nation’s leadership has put a lot of us military people in the position of being forced to become what we hate. Attackers and occupiers.

Why should a Christian be for this? Why should anyone? That’s what I ask.

Joe

Comment #103
AMEN!
Good take on it. I heard of a program that India does. The government pays for their doctors training and after graduation the doctors volunteer 1/2 of their time (for a set amount of years which I don’t know how long that is) and at the same time they have a private practice.

I spoke to an American that lived and worked there and he thought it was the best Medical program around. He had a child that broke a leg, went into the hospital, was treated immediately by a physician (meaning no long wait) and then was told to do follow up at the physicians private practice. The care at the hospital was free and the follow up was how the doctor was paid for his efforts, along with the fact that the physician also had patient on an on going basis in his private practice.

It cost the people less and the services were very good. I just have to think there are better ways for America to do Healthcare and I think we need to start looking at our neighbors to see which is best, but as long as there are those who are in government who are getting $$$$ in their pockets it ain’t going to happen.

Comment #110,

Joe thank you for serving our country in whatever capacity you do.

I think what most people do not understand is that we as a nation have made all kinds of promises and treaties and everwhats with other nations that we are “bound” by what we have done and therefore get forced into these military actions that we are in.

I also think 99% of Americans forgot that when Bush was in office and the towers were hit that we, and Congress and Senate all agreed that we (as Bush sort of said. I can’t remember the whole quote) would go after ANY nation that supported terrorism. Did we think it was a hit and leave attempt? I think not.

So, this war, that we have been in, was pretty well supported by our nation and when it occured and we got involved why would anyone think it would be short. It seems no war ever is.

I would like to see us out of there also but I just don’t think it is all that easy because of what happens behind the scenes with our governmental officials and what has been promised.

Now let me ask you a question. How much of what we do as a nation, (wars that we get involved in), are all part of the “GREATER PLAN” of our Father to set things up for the “BIG RETURN” and/part of His plan to protect His children (Israel)? Let’s face it, every battle that was in the O.T. seems to be either judgement for or against Israel and usually judgement against another nation, and I am not sure that hasn’t changed all that much just more nations involved.

This is a huge topic and something to be really studied out. I realize that I am making this out alot simpler than it is. This is just some thought that ran through my head when I read this thread.

Rick,

I don’t disagree. I wasn’t eluding to “God needing us, either”. I know God doesn’t need any of us. He is soveriegn and can do what He wants without my or anybody, or nations, help.

Also, I want peace as well, I hope what I posted wasn’t leading you and others to think that I want war.

I was reading Romans 10 and 11 this morning and maybe what I was trying to get at is that in these chapters we see that God is merciful, He has not rejected his people (Jews) and that it is interesting that

“”…through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.”

and I just sometimes wonder how much of what goes on in the world has anything to do with this type of notion. Just athought.

Thank you for bringing these points to my attention.

“There is no answer to this.”

I beg to differ. This may be the greatest opportunity for personal revival in recent history. Let us admit we are tied to our things and ask God to do a work of glorifying grace in all our hearts.

The kingdoms of this world are built on sinking sand!

Obama’s healthcare plan will cost, naturally enough, the *government* and not the employer.

OK, I don’t agree with PB’s assessment of the situation, but just where does the *government* get its money from? It has to get it from somewhere, and raising taxes on one part of the economy will effectively be raising taxes on the whole.

I mean you can say it’s coming from taxes on big oil or whatever, but inevitably it gets passed to the consumer in one way or another.

I think the problem with the healthcare system now is that insurance actually covers too much in a lot of instances. If you have a third-party payer paying the actual expenses, the consumer will simply tend to use more of a product than they would if they were paying. So you get people going to the doctor whenever they feel like they might be getting a cold, and this ties up the resources for people who really do need help.

I think health insurance should be more like car insurance – relatively high deductibles that discourage its use for minor things, but if you really need it, it’s there. I mean you don’t have your car insurance pay for every little ding in your car that needs fixed, and you pay for regular maintenance and check-ups.

In a lot of ways, I see the healthcare issue and the issue in the financial markets related. You had people taking out loans with the expectation that someone else was going to pay or that it was eas money. Well now it’s time to pay the piper as people find out there really isn’t such a thing as a free lunch.

But there are *very* strong arguments to be made that America’s ability to compete is hurt because they don’t have the subsidies enjoyed by companies in nations with universal healthcare.

I’d like to see some data to back that up…

It’s not the Eurpoean socialist nations that America is losing business to now, especially in terms of manufacturing and industry. It’s nations like China and India which basically do very little to care for the poor. Ironically, the Chinese system is becoming more decentralized.

In any case, I don’t believe the way to be competitive against socialist and communist countries is to become more socialist. If anything what American business needs is less government interence and regulation, not more.

That’s a very broad brush you’re painting with Phil.
We’re losing to China and India on the things that don’t matter, like cheap goods for export, because they don’t have a concern for the poor, yes, in the sense that their *employers* don’t offer health insurance. Is that what you want for us? Healthcare for no one? Ouch.

Ironically, we are absolutely losing to the Europeans and the Japanese on the industries that do matter, and partly for reasons related to healthcare. Who do you associate with innovation and technology in, say, the automotive industry, the Americans, or the Germans and the Japanese? I’d go with an Audi or a Lexus over a Ford any day. (Even though they’re dirty socialists).

And who is paying hundreds of millions of dollars for healthcare each year? Here, it’s GM and Ford. There, it’s the Federal Republic of Germany and Japan.

And before you scream “design!” think about if GM and Ford had the money to poach the best designers around the world? Wouldn’t that be great?

And before you scream “design!” think about if GM and Ford had the money to poach the best designers around the world? Wouldn’t that be great?

Personally, I don’t care if GM and Ford go down the tank. There are multiple reasons for their predicament now, including, but not limited too, poor management and overpaid union workers.

Also, I don’t know where you get the idea that we are losing to the Europeans and Japanese in healthcare, as far as innovation and new discoveries. As far as people who have health insurance, maybe, but even then what does that measure, exactly? Is there a correlation between health insurance and the overall wellness of the population? Even if there is, I don’t see how that’s the government’s problem. The government’s job is primarily protect freedom and opportunity, not to ensure everyone is in the same condition.

Again, I also don’t know where you get the idea that I think no one should have healthcare. I just think that we should let the market be free like it wants to be.

Phil, I’m sorry you are so nonchalant about the automotive industry. I want it to succeed, and that’s why I want a healthcare system that doesn’t sap 16 percent of our GDP.

I agree that the industry has one hand tied behind its back as well, but I see that more as an issue of having to deal with the unreasonable demands of organized labor. When you’re paying the people who no longer work for you about the same as what you’re paying the ones who currently for you about the same, it just can’t be sustained. So, yes, healthcare is involved in this equation. I’ve read that GM basically pays the same amount for health insurance for retired workers as current. That’s messed up.

And what does that have to do with healthcare as a right? That’s just a strawman, kind of like the idea that a “socialistic” practice will instantly zap our productivity.

This is an issue where I see ideology hurting American competitiveness.

This has everything to do with seeing healthcare as a right, or at least a problem that the government should solve. I guess that’s the thing that I dislike the most about how these issues are framed. They’re always framed in a way that says, “why isn’t the government doing something about this?” I think the question should be, “why should the government do something about this?”. I tend to think that for most things, it shouldn’t. The government isn’t our savior or grand problem-solver. If anything, it hardly touches anything without messing it up.

There’s a quote from one Simpsons episode where Homer says, “to alcohol, the cause and solution to all of life’s problems!” In many ways that how I see these issues. We’re looking to politicians to solve the very problems they’ve created. It won’t end well.

Phil,

I am incredibly sympathetic to your sentiments. There are basic problems concerning social capital and cultural health that the government just can’t touch.

However, I see healthcare as a broken system, haunted by market distortions that the government needs to fix.

I’m honestly surprised that, on a day like today, you are extolling the virtues of free markets. The sub-prime mess is a perfect example of an unregulated market wreaking havoc because of lack of oversight and regulation.

How is it a “government please save me” mentality to argue that we need to get everyone into healthcare to allocate risk properly, to reduce inefficient and unnecessary strains on emergency healthcare, and to work on lowering costs?

Are you against the S.E.C.? Anti-trust regulations? Child labor laws?

Contract rights are not inviolable, or God have mercy on us all.

I’m honestly surprised that, on a day like today, you are extolling the virtues of free markets. The sub-prime mess is a perfect example of an unregulated market wreaking havoc because of lack of oversight and regulation.

You’re kidding right? There’s plenty of blame to go around for the sub-prime thing, but lack of regulation wasn’t the issue. The fact is that both lenders and borrowers were operating under the assumption that housing prices would keep rising, and because the fed was keeping interest rates low, the cost of borrowing was cheap. So people thought that there was little risk and huge profit to be had.

Now of course, not everyone who took these mortgages out were “flippers” and some innocent people got burnt, but unfortunately there are always risks involved in the market. It’s not the government’s job to minimize all that.

Are you against the S.E.C.? Anti-trust regulations? Child labor laws?

Contract rights are not inviolable, or God have mercy on us all.

No, I’m not against all government regulation. I think it is the government’s job to protect the rights of some from infringing on the rights of others. So some of these laws are inevitable. But what we have now isn’t a lack of regulation by any means.

Yep, Palm Bay, Rick. We’ll be heading there in a couple of weeks. Starting to get chilly up here in NY. We spend a few months out of the year at a campground near Rochester NY. Spoiling grandkids!!

Phil:

You are over-simplifying things. These are more than just a few home foreclosures and the “risks” of an over-valued market.

There will be legislation regarding collaterized debt obligations, the highly complex and opaque investment vehicles that *masked* risk and exposed greedy bankers to enormous losses. The fact is, the banks frankly didn’t understand their own portfolios! That will change.

There will be legislation regarding credit agencies and their role in *masking* risk out of a desire for profit.

There will be leglisation regarding mortgages, and the financial requirements for home-ownership.

This is all oversight that should have been done five years ago, but will happen now.
The thought that further regulation couldn’t have either stopped or at least ameliorated the effects if this is a joke. Seriously.

We operate a far more sophisticated economy than most people ever realize. Platitudes about just letting the market “run its course” are worthless.

To the original post – I believe God used the church in America in more of a global way than any other part in history. As a national instrument of God, in that I am grateful. Many times, if we are not careful though, we tend to see an instrument as something more.

(i.e. the body of Moses, the Holy Grail, icons and relics, etc.)

Well, if you have a problem with Obama’s healthcare plan, I’d like to hear why you’d rather have McCain’s?

His healthcare plan sucks for anyone with the good fortune of having a group plan through their employer.

Honestly…healthcare is not an issue to vote for OR against either of these guys…both plans are really questionable.

I agree…

It’s like deciding on whether you’d like to get food poisoning from bad shrimp or undercooked chicken.

NC,
I’ve gone back through and read my comment three times. Where did I say I preferred McCain’s plan?

You know, I’ve paid for my own health insurance my entire adult life. It’s because I’m self-employed. I’ve had some learning moments (get “accident” coverage if you have a half-trained horse, for example), but the concept of a Health Savings Account was, in the end, what made it workable. Essentially, I have a high deductible that I am to put away in a HSA that has tax breaks, rolls over, etc. Now, I don’t actually have the cash to put that all away and not use it, but what ends up happening is that the insurance chips in bits and pieces on the doctor visits that I must make (I don’t go if I really, really don’t have to), and then, in the big things (for example, I had surgery last year) I take out a bank loan for the deductible, and then pay that back in payments I can handle with reasonable interest rates and build a decent credit score.

It can be done. I know the insurance is there for any big emergency.

My parents had a huge, huge insurance payment each month — unreal, considering they really didn’t have health problems or ever went to the doctor — and they went to MediShare until they hit 65 (MediShare asks people to then go on Medicare, though my parents wouldn’t have if they didn’t have to). That worked while they were in it. Cut their costs. Even helped them meet and pray for other people’s needs. Farmers deal with this issue all the time, since they are all self-employed; they pay massive amounts for insurance for their families out of pocket. The concept of getting insurance through an employer is a bit odd, coming from this background.

MediShare is, right now, more expensive for me because I’m single, but it might not be for others in different situations. The HSA has worked well for me.

I hate to see more government programs, either McCain or Obama. When the health insurance problem is addressed in terms of where to pour more money and who should get it, it always seems to miss the point. I also hate to see people running kids to the doctor because of a runny nose. It did not always used to be this way.

I once got a call from my health insurance company regarding the idea of financial/premium incentives for those that lived a healthy lifestyle. You know, no smoking, exercise, healthy weight, etc. I think it’s a great idea. Car insurance companies are doing it now, in regards to driving records. Why shouldn’t I get a reward from my health insurance company for trying to stay healthy? I know people don’t like to talk about incentives to tweak a lifestyle — it’s invasive, not fair, I can’t help the way I am, why am I being “punished” for being overweight, etc. — but I don’t like my premiums to go up because someone can’t put down the cigs or get off the couch and go for a walk.

And no, I don’t think another government program to promote healthy living through meaningless posters in elementary schools is the key. I actually think addressing agriculture subsidies would be relevant here. There’s a video of a story Peter Jennings did about food today which kind of touches on this concept.

I don’t know. Is the real issue just the health insurance, or should we maybe address the actual health? And then there are the commercials on TV advertising drugs directly to people instead of to doctors. That also does not help.

Has anyone ever thought of each church or churches having a health plan that makes it cheaper due to the number of people?

I live in Valrico, just east of Tampa

I sent you an e-mail a LONG time ago, Rick mentioning that I lived in Florida. Via the address on you blog. Mebbe you didn’t get it.

But, then again I’m used to being ignored!! Ask the wife!!

I see this conversation has veered onto McCain’s healthcare plan.

Apparently he has one. An independent analysis has been done of it, actually, and there’s a great summary of its actual implications at the following link…McCain’s plan is unique in that it takes an already screwed up system and makes it worse! Congratulations, Walnuts!

http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/ezraklein_archive?month=09&year=2008&base_name=mccains_health_care_plan_a_ful&21

(Sorry about the politics and the facts, Chris, I don’t want you to get upset about things that are happening on the internet.)

That’s true, but it seems that if it was combined with programs that would rein in the insurance companies, which pretty much have been conducting themselves like drunk college students…

Neither program is perfect, obviously, but one of them indeed strives to make things better, and one pours salt in the wounds.

So it’s not surprising that the cost keeps increasing. It has to. It’s simple economics.

Except there’s MUCH more going on in the insurance industry than “simple economics.” From a moral standpoint, the practices of the insurance industry are among the most disgusting around, and, indeed, much of the racket about “frivolous lawsuits” is just that much more tripe from the insurance industry (look! over there! shiny!) to keep people distracted from the real culprits. Doctors are phenomenally skilled at being doctors, but they’re not business experts and they’re not above being sold a bill of goods on why their malpractice rates are going up.

“No, doctor, seriously, blame it on the poor, the sick, the indigent, not the angelic insurance companies.”

As for “supply and demand,” I’ve got to admit it makes me a little physically ill to be discussing healthcare as a commodity in that way. Not everything should be profit-driven or market-driven, and deregulating the hell out of these companies doesn’t free them up to do better work, it frees them up to cut corners and screw people.

Insurance rates have gone up obscenely over the last decade. The numbers simply don’t support it being due to “trial lawyers” or “frivolous lawsuits.”

The simple fact is that health insurance companies do better when they keep you from getting the treatment you need, or from pretending to cover you at all. I have a “pre-existing condition” (cow growing out of my head…no, just kidding, blind eye), and my health doesn’t cover certain things related to that, even if my doctor says it should. A close friend can’t even GET insurance due to her pre-existing condition and status as a self-employed publicist in the music industry.

Many have it MUCH, much worse. So…look, if there’s one thing the US should be overspending on until the problem is fixed, it’s healthcare, because we’re in a sad, sad situation when people from poor artists to my investment banker dad are fed up with the state of healthcare in this country.

Oh yeah my post from earlier addresses all the issues, I think, maybe, possibly…oh I don’t know!

A few things though:

1) Insurance reform needs to happen. The best way to do that is not privatization or government oversight but allowing health care providers to opt out of insurance subsidies and programs. Also set up a protection for doctors against lawsuits and liability. Similar to the F.D.I.C. for banks. (complex explanation)

2) Those on Medicare and Medicaid will be fast tracked to specific medical facilities with government oversight. The biggest strain on tax dollars is medicare and medicaid fraudulent billing. Think community colleges but only with medical facilities.

3) National Healthcare with a privatized component. While the government pays the bills with tax payer money a private organization issues the checks and does the accounting. One way to minimize costs and maximize service is to pay doctors and hospitals in a timely manner.

4) On average just under 40% of all hospital bills go unpaid. National Healthcare would eliminate this problem.

*smiles, kisses a baby* “Can I have your vote” “I’m gonna fix everything I promise”…

How was that? Was I convincing?

Will everyone take an oath that if the same issues are still being debated in 2012 that you will re-evaluate your political participation? The system breeds greed, compromise, lying, inflated promises, placating, power games, party loyalty, and self aggrandizing.

The most dangeous place on earth is where there is a large amount of money. Washington.

First of all, no, absolutely not, Rick.

Jesus.

I just don’t see how that would change under a program overseen by the feds.

Well here’s the thing: it’s CERTAINLY not going to change if we keep it the same and/or give even more leverage to the insurance companies. I agree that doctors should be paid for their work, but I think that’s a bit of a straw man — if the essence of the competition is truly about consumers picking the best doctors, etc., then great, but that’s not even really the situation here. The doctors are victims of the status quo just like the patients are. Add the noose Big Pharma has around doctors’ necks, and the situation deterioriates even more.

Quite simply, the insurance companies, just like the financial sector, needs to be vigorously re-regulated, so that when things are good, they’re forced to drink responsibly, so to speak, instead of acting like the town drunks, as they have been for the last 28 years or so.

And again, I don’t see how this can be boiled down so simply as “giving control to the feds.” (Although, and free-marketers hate when this is brought up, but when they’re well-funded, the VA and Medicare are among the best medical care in this country. That’s socialized medicine.)

“Jesus”

I agree with you there, Evan.

I think we should be able to take a deduction of some sort to defray health costs.

then again, I think some kind of deduction should come into play with higher ed. costs too…

instead of paying the gov’t or letting corporations screw us, why not just let people keep their money?

McCain’s “credit” for healthcare is just penalizing people with group plans…it’s unjust and unfair…it also makes him a big hypocrite about “not raising taxes”.

the VA and Medicare are among the best medical care in this country. That’s socialized medicine.)

Again Evan, you make statements that have nothing to do with reality. In my post #131 I only touched lightly of the Veterans Administration and federally run health care systems.

The V.A. has rated me 100% totally and permanently disabled. I have priority over any other veteran rated less on their disability. I’ve waited six months for a dental appointments, the average is about four months. I’ve been waiting since the end of May for an appointment with the podiatrist.

Many times I have bit the bullet and paid for a dentist outside the VA system. Depending on the problem, Tricare(that’s retired military health insurance) may cover some of the costs but, often times not. The few dentist I dealt with don’t want to deal with Tricare.

If I call in for an appointment when I’m sick I have to speak with a triage nurse. She rates the severity of my call and I get an appointment based on that. If I’m REALLY lucky I might get in, in two or three days.

If I want to see my primary care doctor for the usual mundane things, that can be a month and a half wait, usually longer.

I’ve had two surgeries in the past four years. The first one the orthopedic surgeon had to wait four months to get paid. The second surgery, the urologist had to wait almost six months to get paid……guess who got the phone calls complaining.

My injuries were severe enough in 1971 that I was “boarded” out of the Army. I’ve been retired since 1971. As far as benefits, being boarded out of the military affords one all the benefits as a full retiree.

That being said, I also get Tricare(as I mentioned earlier). That’s a military retirees health insurance. I pay nothing for it but, I pay 240 dollars a year for coverage on my wife.

The list of doctors willing participate in the Tricare systems grows shorter every year. They don’t want to deal with the paper work and the headaches dealing with the government funded Tricare system..

My wife has had to change her primary care physician 4 times the past two years because her previous doctors dropped out of the Tricare system for the above reasons.

She’s also had two surgeries the past two years. The first surgery, the doctor waited 2 months to get paid. The second surgeon had to wait three…..guess who got the phone calls wanting their monies, that they rightly deserved?

As it is with military base closings, V.A. care facilities are at the whims of the representatives that have the clout to have it their way. A V.A. clinic or hospital is often usually built in an area not because it’s needed there but, more times than not because a congressman has the pull to get it placed in his or her district.

As with a military base, a V.A. facility be it a clinic or a hospital is a cash cow for the neighborhood they reside in.

At the same time some facilities that should be closed remained open(draining the system) for the very same reason as above.

The first example(the VA) is a socialized health system. Tricare represents governmentally funded health care.

Yep, you’re right Even, the best health care in this country.

I apologize to all for bantering for so long.

The V.A. has rated me 100% totally and permanently disabled. I have priority over any other veteran rated less on their disability. I’ve waited six months for a dental appointments, the average is about four months. I’ve been waiting since the end of May for an appointment with the podiatrist.

Of course you both missed the modifying phrase I used.

“When they’re well-funded.”

Under the leadership of John McCain and the Republicans, veterans’ care has been slashed to death over the last decade.

That’s why Walter Reed. That’s why the VA is falling apart.

Try to actually read what I say before you respond to it, okthxbai.

Hey Evan,
Here’s three pieces of free advice:

1. Don’t talk about stuff you know nothing about.

2. If you are going to break #1 don’t talk to people who really do know what you are talking about.

3. If you are going to break #1 and #2 don’t talk down to them.

I love when I run into people who tell me they were in the Army. When I ask their MOS they can’t tell me the #. Or if they can do that, they can’t tell me the name of some pretty normal things.
Just don’t do it, Man, it makes you look silly.

By the way, my WIFE, gets constantly screwed by tricare (she’s a civilian dependent). Same problems Scotty seems to run in to. So that system needs to be fixed too.

Is this the part where we share our service record??

Mine’s nothing compared to that.

I’m proud of your service. It’s people like you that motivated me to join.

We’re a military family too, Joe Martino.

Just as Joe C said, it’s great when you’re active duty, but for veterans it’s bad.

HOWEVER, it’s not a coincidence that when the Republicans are guarding the purse strings, veterans get screwed. In fact, in the most recent rankings, the Iraq & Afghanistan Veterans of America gave FIFTY Republican senators grades of D or F on veterans’ issues, much of that being healthcare funding. So yes, there are correlations here.

So, Joe Martino:

1. If you’re going to be a shameless dick…

Nah, you always follow rule #1…no more rules necessary!

Tricare, that is what the military gives me, is unbeatable. It’s fantastic. Not a single problem. Best care around.

Sometimes location seems to be everything, Joe. We had a lot fewer issues in New York as compared to Florida with Tricare. Nobody has given me an adequate answer for it yet…..

One advantage we DO have is we’re just down the road from Patrick AFB. The wife goes there for most her testing and prescriptions.

Evan, don’t you think that maybe, just maybe I keep track of most of the various organizations that supposedly represent veterans? Don’t you think that people like me have a LOT at stake in these issues and monitor what’s going on?

Paul Rieckhoff is hardly a non partisan guy!

For the rest of the folks here, Rieckhoff heads up IAVA. Iraq and Afganistan Veterans of America.

Keep your rhetortic for the more ignorant folks, Evan