“I’m looking for intelligence and an overall nice person…” (emphasis mine)

So, I guess that makes it OK. **sigh**

He must be in a bad place.

Or maybe he is finally in a good place.

I loved Ingrid’s analysis of how the lyrical content of the music is “to blame”.

Talk about being in the deep end of the pool without your water wings…

“I loved Ingrid’s analysis of how the lyrical content of the music is “to blame”.”

It just goes to show you that there is no human tragedy or struggle that cannot be used to trumpet your myopic view on a subject that is unrelated to the issue. Is there another and stronger word for “narcissism”?

Iggy,

What I think you are missing here is the content of Ray’s ‘coming out’ party.

I read the article put out by a homosexual focussed magazine. In it, the details of Ray’s personal struggle. In it, details of Ray’s divorce, told from his perspective.

Isn’t there a verse somewhere that says God hates divorce? Yes..it is found in Malachi.

Also, Ray details in his article how he is not the only homosexual in the Christian music business. He claims these many just don’t come out because they ‘know’ their audience. Sadly, I am afraid, that many that listen to this stuff they call CCM would be just as accepting of this revelation as the gay community.

Why do I say this? They suck in stuff by Phillips Craig and Dean, who are admitted that they believe in the heresy followed by TD Jakes where they do not believe in the deity of Jesus Christ! Many suck in stuff by Amy Grant, Sandi Patti, et.al who have destroyed their marriages and families, all which God hates, and yet people still believe that they are Christians, even though they act in direct contradiction to God’s standards!

And Iggy, please do not shove the word grace at me. I am not judging these based on my standard. These are all better than me. I am a far worse sinner in need of God’s grace. But, what I do not condone is a very public sin justified in the name of Christ because it makes them feel better. That is selfishness, and pride, the root of so many justifications of sin.

While many on this site chide and carp at Ken and Ingrid for their brand of discernment, we would all do well to discern news like this in light of scripture. Ray Boltz happens to be a homosexual. God didn’t make him that way, he chose to follow his sin nature down that path. I could just as easily follow my sin nature because I am a natural dog, I could fornicate on a daily basis, because, I could say, God made me this way. What I must do instead is to confess and repent, forsaking my self and my sin and throw myself on the mercy and grace of God.

I will not link the site, because I feel like it promotes the gay lifestyle and the fact that you too can be a Christian and be a homosexual and act on those feelings by destroying your family and still call yourself a Christian artist.

And as to the original OP, while I feel sorry for this girl, She is really just doing what the depraved mind would allow. She does not need money for college, she needs a new heart and new mind, which only Jesus can give her.

Just because someone deliberately sins, does not mean they aren’t Christian.

PB,

And you are very ignorant on the this topic…

I am the one that deals with the aftermath of people like you who do more harm to those in this type of situation…

iggy

Iggy, I think it will be beneficial for us all if you ignore Pastorboy’s comments and vica virsa. If this thread becomes another word boxing match between the two of you… I’d rather have a root canal!

Ok,

I agree… I am not going to come here anymore… I understand…

iggy

That’s not what I want Iggy. I just want you and Pastorboy to stay out of each others hair. I like you and generally appreciate your comments. Let love win, ok?

I have benefited from reading and commenting on blogs, as well as writing on my own. I have learned how different people think, I have grown in my acceptance of people, I have had to confront my own flesh from time to time, I have learned to absorb attacks, I have become informed on issues I had not known before, I have had to apologize, I have learned to say things differently and with more grace, I have had to hone my interaction skills, and I have listened to the Spirit teach me about being wrong while being right.

I almost withdrew several times but I felt God leading me back because I don’t feel like anyone should do something out of emotion. Sometimes the most aggravating circumstances are the best crucible in which God can do His best work on me.

Iggy, I hope you read this. The body of Christ resembles the bar room scene on Star Wars and all of us are still in process. Me especially.

Lol, I thought of that after I posted.

In the past self sacrifice was lauded. Now married gays who come out of the closet, divorce their wives, break up their family are lauded for “being true to themselves”. Further, society and the Church is blaimed for “forcing” these people into trying to be normal. “If the Church were more tolerant and accepting then these individuals would not be forced to live a lie in the first place”, many say. Well news flash, no one forced them to get married or to live a lie. Millions do not. ALL sin is from love of self, gay or straight. So why do these people get a free pass? Life goes on. “I’m gay. I’ve left my wife and children, living a life true to myself. Move along, that’s the only thing that has changed. BTW – I’m having a record sale . . . ” I mean really. Why are they lauded for leaving a swath of destruction in the wake of their path to supposed “freedom”? Are they the only ones who suffer? Who morns for the wifes and children?

BTT: CCM is full of gay people, both on stage and off, because where there is musical talent, there will be gay. It has always been this way.

Uh yeah. And where there is football and hunting and rednecks there is gay. Good grief, if a straight person said this they would be castigated.

Also, Amy Grant is EXTREMELY supportive of her gay fan base.

As is John MacArthur his.

John – Where does this site link to and comment on secular exposes on the sins of others?

Maybe on some level, John. But this tone seems different:

“Someone who will meet her like Jesus at the Samarian well.”

I do not believe Christ posted this in order to substantiate his self righteous contentions about what is wrong with society and what is wrong with the church – except for him and his church. I consider that a major difference.

There are no gays in Sumo wrestling.

There are no gays in curling.

Rick: I do not believe Christ posted this in order to substantiate his self righteous contentions about what is wrong with society and what is wrong with the church – except for him and his church. I consider that a major difference.

Good point.

That is such a anti-scholarly association to make.

Seriously.

Try again.

Call it a “lifestyle” again, too, because that puts you at odds with every credible mental health professional in the nation.

Danke.

And on the third day, God created the Remington bolt action rifle so that Man could fight the dinosaurs. And the homosexuals. Amen. Amen.

From airplanes, even.

Wouldn’t want to make the hunters, you know…hunt.

MG: For what it’s worth, you have come across on this thread as angry and bitter.

Angry, yes. Bitter no.

I wonder why that is.

Well M.G. I am actually a “tolerant” person. (No laughter please). I see all mankind as sinners and I see the sin in my own life. Homosexuality is no worse a sin than adultery or fornication. I am sympathetic and fully live my life in trying to show mercy and grace. I fully believe that one will be shown mercy as they have shown mercy and will be forgiven as they have forgiven and will be judged as they have judged. I try to condemn no man. What makes me **angry** is not when the unsaved (or saved) sin, necessarily. We are all on this same journey. No, what makes me angry is when one condones the sin, takes what Scripture very plainly and unequivocally calls sin and justifies it and calls what is bad (homosexual acts) good and what is good (the condemnation of homosexual acts) bad. That is what makes me angry. In my mind that is righteous indignation. I see the trail of broken relationships, wrecked marriages and bruised and scarred children that come from these celebrated “outings” and that no one seems concerned about them while at the same time making heroes of the sinner. Yes, that makes me angry. But hey, I’ll get over it. Thanks for the concern.

I think I agree with John

I am really quite a tolerant person, and I love and hang out with sinners and saints. The only thing that really bothers me is the incessant desire that I must approve of their sin or I am called biased or intolerant. Look, I do not go around bashing people over the head that they must accept my choice to be married to one woman and have children. Why do the homosexuals feel the need to make me agree with their homosexuality? Why do they feel the need to have PACs and march in the streets? Why should they receive more rights than me? When did homosexuals become a race or a group that has to come under the equal protection act?

When I share with homosexuals, I do not even address that particular sin. I take them through the commandments, and, as Jesus said, if you look with lust, you commit adultery. It does not matter the gender you lust after.

By the way, I believe that Jesus can change a person’s heart and desires and make them a new creature.

Why do they feel the need to have PACs

and march in the streets? Why should they receive more rights than me? When did homosexuals become a race or a group that has to come under the equal protection act?

Ok, I find the first part of this comment amusing coming for a guy who is a self proclaimed street preacher. I find the second part disheartening that a Christian is all that worried about his rights

I wonder how any of us would feel if we were constantly carped on about our “lifestyles”?

Well I actually don’t wonder I know.

Chris: I wonder how any of us would feel if we were constantly carped on about our “lifestyles”?

Well I would hope I would take the harping to the Scriptures and if the harping aligned with Scripture I hope I would repent and get my lifestyle in line with what Scripture said. Then I would thank them for the harping.

Proverbs 17:10 – A rebuke goes deeper into one who has understanding than a hundred blows into a fool.

Proverbs 10:17 – He is on the path of life who heeds instruction, But he who ignores reproof goes astray.

If the harping didn’t align with Scripture I would respond to the harper(s) accordingly and try to reason with them. If they were real jerks about it I would tell them to get lost as politely as I could and that we would just have to agree to disagree.

What is being rebuked is the “advocacy” of sin, not necessarily the sinner (and, yes BTT there is a strong Biblical mandate for it) because such advocacy affects others.

I can understand why homosexuals would feel the need to be defensive in many respects. I certainly have heard some very hateful things from Christians through the years, and no, it’s not just from the Fred Phelps of the world.

The passages in Timothy you quote are all in the context of a local congregation, not in the context of the entirety of Christendom. Rebuke happens at the level the sin impacts people. Actually, if you look at the context, 1 Timothy 5:20 is dealing specifically with the sins of elders, not just anyone.

Homosexuality shouldn’t be dealth with any differently than any other sin. It seems were much more willing to work with people such as gossipers and adulterers, but for some reason, homosexuals receive the blunt of the wrath.

Phil,

I agree with much of what you are saying including your thoughts on the context of the Timothy scriptures but the principal is valid and Proverbs, for example, has a lot to say about “rebuking” in general. I also agree the Church has not handled this issue well. Not to harp but to me it’s the advocacy issue that is the rub. I would react the same way about advocates for legalizing prostitution for example.

You are also correct about the “acceptance” of gossipers and adulters in the church vs other sins. But on the other hand, adulterers usually know (on some level) they are sinning and don’t advocate their lifestyle be accepted as a viable, acceptable alternative.

Phil,

That may be true in your church, not in mine!

We absolutely assign the same level of rebuke for those committing ‘little’ sins like lying, gossip, etc. These are all things that we should stay away from as Christians. We may fall into sin occasionally, but when we do we repent.

The very small, but important difference here is that (and I think John has made this point) the homosexuals and their supporters have justified their sin by changing the clear scripture. The very fact that many believe that you can be a practicing homosexual and a Christian just shows that they have been successful in changing our standards to their level. The very fact that a homosexual feels no need to repent due to this changing of the Word of God, supported by these tolerant pastors is creating a real problem when it comes to the righteous life God expects from those He has changed.

That may be true in your church, not in mine!

I see, PB. Your church is just full of perfect members…

It’s not even the fact of having someone from the pulpit condemn certain sins – which in my mind can be close to meaningless. I mean, really, most people don’t give a rat’s rear end what a pastor says.

What I’m talking about is how it is lived out. Do we make it an issue whether or not someone can be a member if they are a gossiper, or if they lust? Probably not, and we will work with them through that. But if a person admits he is a homosexual, he will most likely be shown the door in one way or another. If not explicitly, he will certainly realize he’s not welcome.

Bo,
To what are you referring?

It is not a lie to read a book from ones own bias and perspective, and have an opinion as to what the author is saying.

What is being rebuked is the “advocacy” of sin, not necessarily the sinner (and, yes BTT there is a strong Biblical mandate for it) because such advocacy affects others.

Trust me, your “biblical mandate” doesn’t carry as much weight in the real world as you think it does. I can claim I have a mandate to “rebuke” you because of a book I really love, too, but it doesn’t mean it’s not rude as hell.

They, being homosexuals, and human, do already have rights in America. Why do they need to go overboard and push their lifestyle on me and try and get me to approve of it?

Yes, but not quite as many as you. You know what’s not one of your rights? The right to not be offended by things that don’t affect you in the slightest. That’s not one of your rights.

What equal rights? You, as a person, have the same rights everybody else does. Marriage is not a right; it is an institution between one man and one woman.

No, dear. This is civil society, and marriage is one of the rights conferred in this civil (secular!) society. You may view marriage with specific spiritual connotations, but that has zero bearing on civil secular society.

Lets just replace something else with the sin of homosexual behavior: Incest.

Let’s replace your uneducated ramblings with some clarity: Incest has real-life consequences. Homosexuality (”the sin of homosexual behavior” is malevolently anti-intellectual tripe) does not. Indeed, it cannot, considering the fact that it simply is, in humans and in thousands of species.

Where do we draw the line at perverted behavior?

At where it has real-life consequences…you see, this is why people like me laugh at people like you. It’s abundantly obvious to anyone who actually has gay friends (or is gay himself) that pedophilia hurts kids, you see. However, the fact that I’m gay, whether or not I’m actually with someone, isn’t hurting anyone, and it’s definitely not hurting me.

And, where do we draw the line at who is a real minority group and who just wants to foist their abberant lifestyle on others by being made a minority group with extra

Oh lord, always with the “extra rights.” Which ones, PB? Seriously. Do you have some seekrit copy of the gay agenda that told you we’re demanding to be able to cut in front of you at the DMV? Because we were hoping to keep that one a seekrit until 2019.

if you did not advocate a lifestyle that is contrary to Scripture

Again, calling it a “lifestyle” is willfully malevolently anti-intellectual garbage. It makes one feel like the opposition are not thinking adults, but rather children who can’t accept the truth.

the homosexuals and their supporters have justified their sin by changing the clear scripture.

“The homosexuals.” Actually, PB, many of “the homosexuals” don’t believe your religious book has any bearing on anything, and considering that your side has not achieved its goal of destroying the United States with your insipid dreams of Christianized Shari’a law, your “beliefs” about it are, again, irrelevant in secular society!

PB: re: BTT, if you haven’t already figured it out, you’re “casting pearls…”

BTT et.al.

I think that something that was not made clear enough was that I was speaking specifically to those homosexuals who call themselves Christians. If you call yourself a Christian, a follower of Christ, how can you live in darkness? how can you deny scripture? And, you can be rebuked….

BTT: Trust me, your “biblical mandate” doesn’t carry as much weight in the real world as you think it does. I can claim I have a mandate to “rebuke” you because of a book I really love, too, but it doesn’t mean it’s not rude as hell

.

Coming from one who’s website is a cesspool of vulgarities, hate and venom.

Coming from one who’s website is a cesspool of vulgarities, hate and venom.

Focus on the potty language, seriously. Because that’s a great way to distract oneself from losing an argument.

What do you do with your NAMBLA pals? I mean, after all, they were born that way too! It would be hypocrisy (by your logic) to hold them to a different standard than you would hold yourself to!

See? More stupid from you. Are you aware that NAMBLA isn’t even part of the gay rights movement? Are you aware that ALL the research shows that gays are no more likely to be pedophiles than straight people? ALL the research. (Paul Cameron is not credible, by the way, since he can’t even get published in a journal without paying for it. His contemporaries uniformly think he’s a joke.)

But yet again, you forget (refuse to acknowledge) the difference: pedophiles have victims.

Gay people fall in love and get married and raise families. Or they don’t! Either way, no victims, and it has no bearing on your life.

Phil, that statement reveals more than you know. If a person has the Holy Spirit living inside them that Spirit will respond in agreement with a Scriptural rebuke and condemn the sin and convict the sinner, hopefully resulting in repentance. That conviction may be combatted, suppressed or ignored, but the conviction will be there. That is one of the Holy Spirit’s main functions and gifts to the Body. The lack of repentance is more a sign of unregenerated hearers than problems with the pastor. And what kind of believer could sit under a pastor they could not give a rat’s rear end about what he says?

Well, re: the whole “rat’s rear end” thing, I was really thinking of person who attends a church, and might possibly be a member, who hears a pastor condemning certain sins from the pulpit. If it is a sin a person has struggled for a while, I don’t believe in a lot of instances it’s a matter of a person just willfully choosing to sin. There are a lot of factors that cause people to do certain things, and hearing another sermon will probably not help them.

Now, I do agree the Holy Spirit convicts people of sin, and I don’t think He really needs our help in that area. We can talk about sin and its effects, but we can’t make people repent. That is a matter between them and God.

This whole thing gets down to a larger issue, though, in my mind. It comes down to the fact the a lot of Christians just view the Gospel as a matter of what Dallas Willard calls “sin management”. It make it a very one-dimensional thing. So what happens is we worry very much about sins of commission, but very little about sins of omission. Ironically, it seems that God just as upset (or possibly even more) with the Israelites for the things they didn’t do as much as the things they did. The mission of the church isn’t to produce perfect Christians, it’s to serve the World.

But aren’t they made that way, BTT?

Your justification of your lifestyle is rife with hypocrisy.

The truth of the matter is that since pedophilia actually exists on top of a person’s underlying sexuality, and since pedophiles usually don’t discriminate between the genders of the children they molest, it is considered a psychosexual disorder.

Unlike homosexuality.

FAIL again.

You mean like omitting preaching the Gospel to every creature vs. feed them, clothe them house them and in doing so you are demonstrating the gospel?…(just not preaching it as commanded).

Actually the Gospel is incomplete with if either the proclamation or demonstration is missing. So both conservatives and liberals could be equally guilty of sins of omission, in my opinion. Although it seems more common to see those who are willing to talk about something instead of doing it, rather than the other way around.

So, sex of which you disapprove does not have biological and moral roots?

If that’s what you think I said, then your reading comprehension levels are very low.

And no, your pals in NAMBLA are not heterosexual

Yes, but NAMBLA doesn’t account for all pedophiles, or even most of them. If you’ve ever watched that “To Catch A Predator” show, you’ll notice that the great majority of them are creepy middle-aged men looking for young girls. And really, it’s kind of retarded of you to keep mentioning NAMBLA, since no one I’ve ever met has ever even met one of their members. I mean, seriously? The ONLY time I ever hear about them is from scared right-wing conservatives. In fact, I didn’t even know what it was before that sad sack Peter LaBarbera posted one of his “alerts” about them. NAMBLA is something your people use to scare yourselves into swooning stupors over Teh Ghey Menace, but in the real world, they’re roundly condemned by all, including the gay community.

PB, your knowledge of the world is very poor. I understand that. I would suggest that you spend some of your time in front of the computer expanding your mind, rather than reading the latest incoherent ramblings from Grant Swank or whoever it is you admire.

What do you do with your NAMBLA pals?

Huh?

If you don’t see the difference between NAMBLA and adult homosexuals who are attracted to other adults, there is nothing else to say to you.

John Hughes,

Thanks for your response I would just ask one question.

Do you struggle with any sin that you know is against scripture?

Phil,

I agree with a lot of the content of your last post.

Now, I do agree the Holy Spirit convicts people of sin, and I don’t think He really needs our help in that area. We can talk about sin and its effects, but we can’t make people repent. That is a matter between them and God.

“We can’t make people repent” – How true. But **one** of the things (and I would say the predominate means) the Holy Spirit uses to bring conviction and repentance is the Word which must be either read or heard. Further, there are many Scriptures regarding the need for exhortation and rebuking. But agreed the inner workings of the soul are the Spirit’s domain. However, God does use humans as a means to deliver His message.

“sin management”. . . a very one-dimensional thing.

Agreed. Balance is needed for a healthy spirituality.

The mission of the church isn’t to produce perfect Christians, it’s to serve the World.

Well, I would say the mission of the Church encompasses many things with training in righteousness being one of them. But I agree that is not its only mission. Balance is required for a healthy body.

dave, this is what BTT said

Yes, but biological characteristics don’t have morality.
(And yes, ALL the science is pointing in the direction of sexuality being biological. ALL of it.)

So…NAMBLA homosexuals like having sex with boys, and now that is NOT biological? I thought biological characteristics don’t have morality?

No one has ever proven a gay gene, but you say you were made that way HUH? Can not a NAMBLA homosexual claim the very same thing?

Is sexuality biological or isn’t it? What is perversion and what is normal? If you follow your logic, it is whatever you feel good about.

I really don’t get your obsession with bringing NAMBLA into this.

But to answer your question, I guess it could be possible for adult males to be biologically attracted to boys.

But the HUGE difference is in the action. Adult homosexuals get involved with other adult, consenting homosexuals.

It is not really difficult to understand.

Oh god, pastorboy, read ALL the words, not just some of them. Let me do this slowly for you. I said:

Yes, but biological characteristics don’t have morality.
(And yes, ALL the science is pointing in the direction of sexuality being biological. ALL of it.)

Now, nowhere in there did I say that pedophilia fell within the normal range of sexuality. In fact, several posts later, I said the following:

The truth of the matter is that since pedophilia actually exists on top of a person’s underlying sexuality, and since pedophiles usually don’t discriminate between the genders of the children they molest, it is considered a psychosexual disorder.

Unlike homosexuality.

Ta-da! It’s very, very simple — according to the experts, homosexuality, heterosexuality, bisexuality, are sexual orientations, whereas pedophilia is a psychosexual disorder which exists on top of a person’s underlying sexuality.

Got it? If you need to, I can copy and paste my reply a few more times.

Can not a NAMBLA homosexual

NAMBLA aren’t just “another kind” of homosexual, John! Get this through your thick skull!

No one has ever proven a gay gene, but you say you were made that way

Yes, because I pay attention to the science, and science is the fundamentalist’s worst enemy, because it’s always more complex than you people try to make it. The fact that a single gay gene hasn’t been isolated in no way “proves” that sexuality isn’t inborn. To suggest so betrays a preschooler’s understanding of genetics. However, ALL the science points to sexuality being biological in nature, in some way. Whether it’s a single factor or a confluence of factors, they don’t know yet. A recent study finds that male homosexuality actually seems to have an evolutionary purpose, in that there seems to be a correlation between fecund women and gay male siblings. It’s a genetic principle called “sexual antagonism,” wherein a characteristic, passed onto the female, actually contributes to the very perpetuation of the species, whereas when it’s passed to the male, it seems to correlate with homosexuality. The same genes — just reacting different ways in the two genders.

But you see, PB, being able to rattle off things like that requires actually being a curious human being, rather than shoving aside any information that doesn’t fit within the constraints of one’s narrow-minded uneducated worldview.

Where do they talk about giving money in order to gain God’s favor?

In pastorboy’s mind.

I don’t hate anyone. I hate ignorance.

But actually, I would clarify something. I’m only rude to people on my blog when their first comment is an insult. That’s my policy. When (on the rare occasions) a person comes in with a legitimate disagreement and backs up their disagreement with facts, I will have a discussion with them. But yes, when a person comes in like an idiot and starts throwing uneducated insults, I just make fun of them and/or abuse them, because they’re idiots. Got it?

I would like to remind you that only recently did homosexuality come off that list…you know..the DSM III..

Almost forty years ago?

Maybe thats why your people march in the streets and have PAC’s to make people believe that your brand of perversion is normal and acceptable, even biological, when even a kindergartners knowledge of biology knows that two men just don’t fit together. It just ain’t natural.

Except that all the scientific research says your point of view is puerile and uninformed?

More about our “PAC”s again. You must be really scared of the PAC’s. Do you know what’s actually changing the public opinion in this country? It’s not marches or PAC’s. The great majority of Americans now believe gay people should have our relationships recognized under the law because the great majority of Americans now realize they know gay people, and that what they’ve been told by people like you over the years is just a pack of sad, scared lies.

The world is much more complex than the black/white image you’ve made of it. I feel bad for you, actually. I imagine that you’re missing out on a lot of life by boxing yourself into such a narrow, hateful, little boy’s box.

You must be really scared of the PAC’s.

No fundamentalists have any of those scary PACs.

Oh wait…

2008-1973….hmmmmm 35 years.

Not quite 40 but close enough.

And since that has happened? AIDS through the roof- oh its not a homosexual disease you say..No longer. But at the beginning it was exclusively a homosexual disease. According to scientists, either Monkey A bit human B, or the human was committing indecent acts with the monkey. He then passed it on to his male sex partner…and so on…and so on…and so on.

And because of sexual perversion, (homosexual, heterosexual, and bestial) millions die in Africa and worldwide due to AIDs every year.

Well it doesn’t hurt anybody…two consenting adults…

Tell it to the AIDS orphans in Haiti and Africa.
And it doesn’t hurt anybody you say?

Actually, the origins of AIDS are far more complex than you suggest.

But here’s the thing: it could have just as easily entered the Western world (because in Africa, it’s decidedly not a gay disease) through heterosexuals. Your use of AIDS to scapegoat gay people is offensive at best, and again, petulantly stupid.

But I suppose it makes sense when you have a worldview that probably believes that natural disasters are a judgment from God, rather than the result of plate tectonics, weather patterns, and ocean currents.

BTT,

You have your sources, I have mine.

And yes, I do believe that God is sovereign. I do believe He created the earth in seven literal days. And he created Adam and Eve, giving them the ability and the command to reproduce. Two different people, sexes, etc, complementing and fitting one another.

Call me stupid, if you please. I have done my research, I have tasted and seen that the Lord God is good.

BTT – what you don’t understand is that it matters not one whit what the world thinks. Opinion polls mean nothing from an eternal viewpoint. 50 years ago it would have been 99.99% against. Who can say what it will be 50 years hince? The pendulum of public opinion is a very fickle thing indeed. It swings this way and that and in the end and is a validation of nothing. But God’s Word abides forever. Today is the day of salvation BTT, be reconciled to God.

Today is the day of salvation BTT, be reconciled to God.

*eyerolls*

I would say that you are a plain and simple wingnut. But you are clearly a man of faith, for, if you were not you could not believe in the psuedo science of evolution. Only a fool could look at the organization an hierarchy of this world and deny that there is an all-powerful creator. Funnier yet, BTT, is the belief that order comes from chaos!

Oh, my god, folks, he doesn’t even understand evolution.

Also? Just because you don’t like it doesn’t give you license to pretend that something that is accepted as scientific fact by ALL REAL SCIENTISTS is “pseudo-science.”

I mean, my god.

This is utterly pathetic. I mean, a plurality of Evangelicals have come to their senses and realized that their faith can be reconciled with every scientific discovery of the last 200 years, but I absolutely marvel at people like you. Ignorance, indeed, must be a special kind of tortured bliss, to believe that all real science is “pseudo-science,” black is white, up is down…I mean, seriously, I think you have jumped the shark more than any person I’ve ever met in my entire life, and I grew up Evangelical, so it’s not that I’m not used to Christian viewpoints, but…wow…the sheer ignorance that you seem to be comfortable with…

Stunning!

Anybody notice that the only apparent difference between John Chisham and Evan is that John claims to follow Christ? They both act like assholes to people who disagree with them.

I’m a Christ-follower…I just don’t happen to go in for the full “fairy-tale,” as John would call it. I think that, by all accounts, the Christ was somebody to model our lives after, and that his teachings were profound. However, I can’t reconcile the fact that the supposed Garden of Eden story happened about a thousand years after the Sumerians invented glue with the idea of the Bible as the true end-all, be-all of the universe, when the universe, as we now know it, is so much more vast than what is contained within that story.

Then, BTT, you are following a false Christ.

Hey Nick, thats your opinion. I don’t think BTT is an whatever you called him. I disagree with him, I think he is wrong, but he really isn’t a jerk about it.

BTT: Oh, and Nick, I’m a Christ-follower…I just don’t happen to go in for the full “fairy-tale,” as John would call it.

200 years or so ago science believed in spontaneous generation, believed diseases were caused by humors, etc. etc.

Just 60 years ago science thought and taught the Milky Way galaxy was the sum total of the universe.

Seemingly everyday with new scientific discoveries you read “the science books are going to have to be rewritten on this one”. What is science “fact” today is made laughable by the discoveries of the next and in this shifting sand you place your trust and stake your eternal destiny. Like I said, Evan, be reconciled to God. Today is the day. (And this has plea NOTHING to do with the sexual orientation issue).

Evolution: You have a huge explosion of matter and gasses which are eternal.

Matter and gasses would have formed later after a massive expansion of energy. Being an engineer the big bang theory makes a lot of sense as a method to create by. Things are made trough processes – which we call engineering. Why could God not choose the process of an expanding universe to create space, galaxies, stars and planets? Why could He not choose to use some process like evolution to create biological living creatures? The Bible clearly states that God did create and why He did create. As to the how we should look at science to figure that out. The how does not make the why or by whom invalid.

On the gay issue I would like to say that the church, Christians, should start looking for opportunities to serve gay people, love them, accept them and leave more room for the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

As for transparency… Thank you John Hughes. I know the struggle.

God’s Offer of Grace to a self admitted agnostic = garbage, creepy, sleazy and maudlin.

Yes…

You see, Christians such as yourself always seem to fancy yourselves the first to share the message. Yet, the reality, for me and for so many others is that we’ve heard it, a million times, in a million ways. I used to be a devout Christian. Christianity was the mask I used to hide behind, immersing myself in doctrine, blah blah blah. I know the altar calls, the rationale, the sales pitches, the maudlin tricks people use to get people to sign up for the network marketing scheme of Evangelical Christianity: “If you died tomorrow, do you know, with 100% certainty where you’re going?” Why, no, I don’t. Back when I was caught up in Evangelical Christianity, I never saw the flaw in that logic. I had to find my way out to realize that wow, nobody, if they’re being honest, can actually answer that question in the affirmative. We can deeply immerse into religious belief, into dogma, into faith, and that may be the opiate we need to get us through this messed up thing called life. We can speak the language of the faith so fluently that we tell ourselves that yes, we know that answer, but the truth is that, in the deepest, darkest corners of our minds and hearts, where we are most immune from the outside influences of the world, no one knows.

Reason, deep thought, deep prayer, and honesty led me out of that practice and that mindset.

Here’s the thing — if a traditional interpretation of Christianity is what feeds you, then I want you to be strong in that. What I cannot abide is people believing that they have all the answers when I know that they don’t, people believing that it’s their right/duty to impose their answers on me, when I’ve already searched those answers and found them wanting.

I do notice, though, that rare is the Evangelical who is capable of seeing how rude “witnessing” is, who is capable of seeing the rolled eyes and dirty looks, the “oh, dear, I’ve heard this a thousand times, can you please spare me?” expressions. I didn’t see it when I was caught up in it. Man, I was on fire, as they say. I was also an insufferable human being. But we all pray and grow, sometimes in different directions. What’s insulting is when people of certain traditions suggest that, because you’re not growing in the same direction, that your growth is “false” or “untrue.” Because, again, deep down, no one knows.

Anyway.

Evan: You see, Christians such as yourself always seem to fancy yourselves the first to share the message. Yet, the reality, for me and for so many others is that we’ve heard it, a million times, in a million ways.

I know that Evan. You have shared that on CRN.info before. But you know what? Today is the day of Salvation.

Hebrews 4:7-17 – He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”
For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience. For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

Oh, my god, folks, he doesn’t even understand evolution.

Shocking.

I have all the answers.

Well played.

I promise I will not share the gospel with you. I respect your right, your free will to not believe.

Thank you.

But you know what? Today is the day of Salvation.

Okay, now it’s getting a little bit…just as creepy as before, but with a healthy dose of Asperger’s.

AGH!

Deadpan *look.

How “L” became “B” I have no idea.

I wasn’t aware I was asdf-ing in my bedroom and jkl;-ing in outer space.

Rick,

In other words:

Why would God lie?

Dave,

The snarkiness of your comments aside…

What about the people who have PhD’s in that subject matter and are the young earth creationist types? Do they understand the modern understanding of NDE correctly?

Most assuredly they do.

So then what? (and “well if they understood it they would accept it” is a non-answer logical fallacy, I think)

I always wonder that.

Joe

What about the people who have PhD’s in that subject matter and are the young earth creationist types? Do they understand the modern understanding of NDE correctly?

A couple of responses.

- There are many PhDs, in many different fields, who are wrong every day.
- There are many more PhDs that are not young earth creationist types than are.

I think that people can understand things “correctly” and still come up with wrong interpretations.

I have seen the explosion of a supernova that is several million light years away. Even youg creationists don’t argue the distance. Why would God create that explosion in the light stream when in fact it did not happen?

Rick, you’re going to break somebody’s brain.

Can we please drop the evolution stuff and get back to the sex talk?

Mor secks!

She’s also seeking other qualities from her first lover. “I’m looking for intelligence and an overall nice person,” said Dylan.

Yeah, one of those good people who pay for sex, fornicate outside of the marriage bed. Yeah, one of those guys.

Nick,

I never meant what you claimed, it was innocent, trying to be complementary in a stupid foot in the mouth sort of way. I sure am glad God forgives, its clear that you just use peoples failures to exploit some sort of lack in your life. I will pray for you.

Tim who?

And what defecate is that?

Oh So we can paraphrase you to say,

I sure am glad God forgives, and we should too as long as everyone else does. I, John Chisham will allow God’s forgiveness to transcend through my life when I feel it should. However, whenever anyone puts up something I said and let’s it sit on it’s own, I will run like a little child to try and spiritualize it.

There that looks more accurate to your actions.

John,
Your hypocrisy stinks.

Regardless of what you and your hypocrite friends do.

Well, good for you John. Coming from you a man who has shown so much integrity here and online in general that really hurts, you calling my friends hypocrites. I mean that, no any sarcasm you detect isn’t really sarcasm. I mean, a person of your astounding integrity will no doubt pick up on that. I may need to see my therapist about this…

What do you suggest Joe?

I mean, a hyper spiritual man like yourself should be able to guide me, a man who completely lacks integrity according to your intimate and deep knowledge of who I am. What should I do? I mean, I have already had an apology up there because it offended Tim, so, what else should I do? I am submitting myself to your clear moral authority in all things blog. After observing your dealings with Julie and Jerry, I know that you are the most righteous and the person most full of integrity here.

Please, tell me what to do Joe. Then send Erica to back it up. I really need your council, oh grand poobah of CRN.info.

The op has changed. Hopefully Joe Martino approves it.

“what defecate…”?

ummm….that’s a verb…

as in “the act of elimination”.

qualitatively no different than the writing you do on your blog or here, PB.

PB,

on a good note…I think your update was a good move.

seriously.

What do you suggest Joe?

I mean, a hyper spiritual man like yourself should be able to guide me, a man who completely lacks integrity according to your intimate and deep knowledge of who I am. What should I do? I mean, I have already had an apology up there because it offended Tim, so, what else should I do? I am submitting myself to your clear moral authority in all things blog. After observing your dealings with Julie and Jerry, I know that you are the most righteous and the person most full of integrity here.

Please, tell me what to do Joe. Then send Erica to back it up. I really need your council, oh grand poobah of CRN.info.

When people ask my why I don’t have T.V. anymore I just send them to these writings of yours John. Thank you.
I mean that, thank you.
You are truly a source of much humor for my life.

dang,

that should have been: “thou mayest see but only one set…”

lol

PB,

nice…

the formal structure doesn’t come right out and say it, but the material reality of your comment still enlists the weight of the retort–

nice rhetorical touch…but it’s style over substance…but I get it:

1. frank, direct exposure of what someone is actually doing is wrong and blasphemous when you are the deserved object of critique.

2. Your back-handed implicit rhetoric is in the clear.

Anyway…

As far as help goes, remember this one from your repetoire?

Physician, heal thyself!

That’s all I can give you. I doubt Julie will weigh in…you’ve probably creeped her out enough.

Lastly,

Who cares if people “go and come back”?
Your High Priestess does that crap with whole blogs, much less individual posts, simply to cover her own hiney when she’s out of it, or over the line, or just plain wrong–which really means she should just pack it in for good since that’s a general description of her ministry of anger and fear of difference.

See Rick,

It goes to show you’re just crap…

LOL…

“It goes to show you’re just crap…”

The Calvinists call that:

Total Crapavity!