Apologists – are authors, writers, editors of scientific logs or academic journals, and leaders known for taking on the points in arguments, conflicts or positions that are either placed under popular scrutinies or viewed under persecutory examinations. The term comes from the Greek word apologia , meaning a speaking in defense.
Ministry – an influential, Grammy-nominated American industrial metal band founded by frontman Al Jourgensen in 1981.
Just a little Thursday fun! But c’mon isn’t that the image you get when you think of what some of the apologist “ministries” out there do. They wanna be like Ravi but in the end they only end up looking like an anti-establishment, angry, wanna be rocker, longing for the good ‘ol days. When they had thousands clamoring to hear their voice.
32 Comments(+Add)
I beat Rick again
OK, I’ll admit it.
I may have been the biggest Ministry fan that reads this blog. I think I still have most of the cds. Though I have listened to them in quite a while, something in the drivenness and brutal rebellion of that music still appeals to me.
ps – I do still enjoy listening to Alice In Chains.
Brett,
I like/liked Ministry as well. Unfortunately I’ve changed my tastes in music a little and Ministry hasn’t changed much.
so according you chris:
anyone who disagrees with Rick Warren and Doug Pagitt and Leonard Sweet and their ilk is considered to be
a “anti-establishment, angry, wanna be rocker”
J,
No, only people who describe people groups of people they disagree with as “ilk”, and especially people who don’t understand the undertones of the word “ilk” and justify themselves by posting a dictionary definition.
bo, I get it, youre being sarcastic and avoiding to answer my question:
anyone who disagrees with Rick Warren and Doug Pagitt and Leonard Sweet and those with their questionable theologies
is considered to be
a “anti-establishment, angry, wanna be rocker
2 timothy 4:3-4
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
I cannot place Pagitt and Warren in the same category.
J,
I answered your question quite clearly. I could easily quote the same passage to you as you refuse to repent of your sinful attitude and behaviors against your brothers in Christ.
You itching ears are scratched quite nicely by the ODMs who in return receive your praise and adulation.
so Bo
you are saying that by speaking out against univeralism and pagan spirtuality
and “christian yoga”
all of which Pagitt and other “christian” leaders are pushing in the churches
I should repent for using discernment.
rick, you said:
I cannot place Pagitt and Warren in the same category.
how are they different, both promote transidental meditation aka contemplative prayer
I haven’t seen anyone “push” yoga, or pagan spirituality…
just because a public figure speaks about it or writes a book doesn’t mean they are really making something happen.
methinks you overestimate the power of some people and underestimate the Holy Spirit within the people of the Church.
If you place Pagitt and Warren in one large heretical tent then your parameters are different than mine. I disagree with some of Warren’s pragmatic approach, but I disagree with Paggit in much more substantive doctrinal issues.
It is time that some sophisticated nuances are acknowledged within what is monolithically labeled “contemplative prayer”. I also suggest that the entire body of Christ needs a surge of prayer in general, including those who are well informed about the dangers of “contemplative prayer”.
We also need a surge of grace, love, mercy, generousity, forgiveness, evangelism, and humility. Also a surge of Biblical truth.
OH WAIT! The things I just listed ARE BIBLICAL TRUTH. Sorry for being redundant.
J,
Sorry I was out all weekend. Question for you…where did I mention Rick Warren or Doug Pagitt in the definition?
J,
You have no respect for the truth or the english language. Instead you look only to devour and destroy.
Chris,
I had to come back to post this.
True story: I’m preparing for my religion class this evening. This resource book has 199 questions asked by real teens. I never noticed question #34 until today:
Rick Frueh, what do you disagree with Pagitt and Warren on
to the guy at post 10:
maybe you ought to check out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_34SH8jVec
chris:
you say repeatedly anyone who disagrees with
brian mclaren or rick warren or doug pagitt or those in the sinner sensitive movement
(aka seeker sensitive movement)
as being “pharisees”
i have yet to see you or your website criticize some of the false teachings that are being pushed in the church
chris, can you honestly tell me that
Doug Pagitt and Rob Bell and Dan Kimball and Rick Warren and Joel Osteen and Brian McLaren push sound doctrine
Well, they’re not Reformed, if that’s what you’re asking. It seems that for many of their critics, “sound doctrine” and “Reformed dogma” are synonymous.
phil, I would be curious what is your defintion of the word reformed
also, do reformers take John 14:6 literally
A man I know who looks more like Jesus than perhaps anyone else I know identifies his favorite verse as Luke 15:2. Perhaps you’d sound a lot more like Christ if you weren’t so derisive towards sinners, of which you are one.
also, who are some well-known reformer pastors
bo, i never said i wasnt a sinner
Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God
I am not derisive towards sinners, I use discernment
since when does using discernment equal being “derisive towards sinners”
When the alleged “discernment” uses ’sinner sensitive’ as an insult.
bo, so you are saying cause I use “discernment” i am a “pharisee”
I guess you are saying christians should ignore the following bible verses:
———————————————–
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears. And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables”
2 Timothy 4:3-4
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world”
1 John 4:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not”
2 Peter 2:1-3
also I guess you srea saying BO DIAZ
that we should ignore reading or taking literally
Matthew 24:4-5
Matthew 24:11
and Matthew 24:24
bo, wouldnt using “sinner sensitive” to describe the “seeker sensitive movement”
be as insulting as say
calling online discernment ministries
“the armchair mafia”
BTW to Chris:
you call Ravi Zacharias a “apologist”
than how come he is a supporter of Robert Schuller and his Crystal Cathedral Rethink Conferences
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/index.php?p=1240&more=1&c=1
if Ravi believes in sound doctrine
I mean, you arent honestly saying thatn Robert Schuller preaches sound doctrine
No, I’m saying you don’t use discernment at all. You lack even the basic discernment it takes to understand anyone who doesn’t believe and communicate exactly as you do.
Speaking of which, here’s a great example:
I said nothing about you trying to deliberately insult those who are a part of the family of God, who were placed there by the work of Jesus Christ. Rather, I was pointing out that your deliberate insult pours derision on sinners by somehow trying to construe that being sensitive to sinners is a something that is bad.
look I dont mind being sensitive to sinners
but going to the point where the church looks and feels more like a social hall
than a house of god
is what I was talking about by calling some churches “sinner sensitive”
bo, i would be curious what basic discernment is then
also, do you believe there is a lack of basic discernment in the churches nowadays
Really? Then why do you try to insult people by saying they are “sinner sensitive”?
I suppose that’s the difference between you and I. You believe church buildings are cages for God, and I believe that where ever Christ-followers are is where worship happens.
You might as well ask me if everyone likes the color red.
bo, you said:
I believe that where ever Christ-followers are is where worship happens.
I believe that too but for us to water -down the sermons in church to some appease folks
is what I was talking about
Actually no, that’s not what you were talking about at all. Your first concern was for the decorating style of a building in which God is worshiped for an hour a week.
And if you check out many of the sermons recorded in scripture they are very basic. In fact, the more basic a sermon the better. Sermons are not all that suited to advanced studies.
Hmmm….and all this time, I thought we were the house of God. I wasn’t aware that God was still confined to a building.
What exactly is a “social hall”, anyway?
Seriously, the thinking that we act a certain way in a church building and another way somewhere else has to be one of the greatest distortions of New Testament theology I can think of. Jesus didn’t come to pronounce judgment on the old temple just to have it replaced by a newer and prettier one. He came so that God’s law would be written on men’s hearts, and that we would truly be God’s children.
Not to mention the earliest “churches” were in people’s homes. Talk about “social halls.”
J asked before for a working definition of “reformer.” For starters, it would be those who put all the eggs of “worship” into the 20-30 segment of preaching. The preached word is the par excellance of worship and everything else, in their eyes, is fluff.
J,
Instead of responding to your absurdity about Ravi let me just say that anything you pull from LHT is considered biased and baseless in my eyes. If you have a reputable source I will gladly dialog with you .