Quite often, commenters here ask the question why we even care about what the various Armchair Mafia sites write, or why we spend time debunking their attacks. It’s a valid question. It’s something I ask myself, and honestly, sometimes I think it’s probably better to just let a fool go off into his or her folly. But then I see something they write, and it’s so much in error, I feel that it needs a response.
Take for example, this rant. Now at the start of the post, we are told,
The Right Reverend Nick Baines, Bishop of Croyden, has said that Beatles songs are as likely to explain Christianity as the Bible which he calls, “banal.” Rock songs, he says, are more effective at explaining Christianity.
That’s a pretty serious charge. I would be concerned if a minister actually called the BIble “banal”. So I follow the link to the original article, and what do I find? I see that the Right Reverend Baines actually said nothing of the sort. What he actually said is the following:
“The Bible is an amazing collection of books that we’ve allowed to become banal. For many people it is a closed book and asking them to read it is a lost cause, which is a tragedy.”
That is a very different statement than calling the Bible “banal”. The Right Reverend Baines is simply stating that the Church has not done a good job at communicating the truths of Scripture to modern generations, and it’s tragic. The truth is that many people see the Bible as little more than an obsolete book, and to them it has become “devoid of freshness or originality; hackneyed“. So perhaps a secular songwriter, playwright, or poet will happen to ask questions that are really on people’s minds. And perhaps we as Christians can take those questions and point to the narrative of Scripture that gives answers or comfort for those questions.
Actually, isn’t a primary job of a minister to listen to the questions people are asking? Isn’t a true shepherd responsive to the calls of the sheep? Perhaps the reason so many people have little use for the Church is that what was meant to be a vital and engaging relationship has turned into a one-way conversation. Throughout the Gospels, Jesus never looked down upon someone with a genuine question. He took time to respond to those whom society shunned. He didn’t let religion dictate what the right questions were.
So perhaps instead of insisting we have the answers for all the questions that nobody is asking, maybe we should take a moment to listen. We might be surprised what we hear.
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
143 Comments(+Add)
Taking your illustration, the shepherd would wander around with the sheep aimlessly. No, the job of the Pastor/shepherd is to guide and to lead. Sure, there should be and must be effective communication to lead effectively.
What disturbs me more is the misquoting of a minister of Christ by the author of the post at SOL. That is dangerous and raises a serious red flag.
It may be that the shepherd’s main job is to be with the sheep–his job is more than just leading; sometimes it is carrying, mending, feeding, etc. That’s why there are different roles assigned in Scripture. The shepherds (always plural) are with the sheep, but that may not be the main job of the evangelist/teacher. Their main job is to teach Scripture and to pray.
While a shepherd may well be a teacher, not all teachers are necessarily shepherds. Our problem is that we fail to distinguish the roles.
jerry
I agree, misquoting this fellow was bad but not nearly as bad as the indication that we need rock and roll or other modern poetry to interpret scripture or make it relevant. We have babies and children in the pulpits that prefer to copy down messages from the internet and teach moral maxims rather than taking serious time to open up Gods Word and pray before the Lord and seek what He wants to say first to the minister and then to the sheep in the congregation.
We have become a church of giving sheep a poll to see what they want rather than taking our God-given command to guide and direct them. Part of leadership is knowing their needs and this requires both observation, communication, and direction from the chief Shepherd.
whatever happened to pastors preaching from the bible on sunday mornings
and preahing like paul washer does
or like J. Vernon McGee or Woodrow Kroll does on the radio
this the church has to be “relevant” stuff is getting annoying
Would you say those things have a bearing or matter to you?
Hmmm…..
what do you mean BO?
what I mean by my comments:
I would like to hear good preaching,
not the Bill Hybels and Joel Osteen and Mark Driscoll
watered-down version of the church that many churches have become across the country
J,
I understand what you are saying…but the problem is not in being relevant, it is the fact that the Bible is the most relevant book for our time and the fault is not in the Bible, it is with fallen men who prefer the sounds of their own voice and their own ideas about the Bible to the Bible. We have made the Bible banal in our minds and through our own childish behaviors. We are like sheep that have gone astray, each to our own way.
The day I preach like paul washer is the day I quit the pulpit.
why, Jerry
what dont you like about Paul washer
I by the way dont agree with paul washer’s methods 100 percent
but I would be curious jerry, why you arent a fan of his
jonny aka pastorboy
I agree
we have made the Bible banal in our minds and through our own childish behaviors
It’s all about me!! Dangit!!
I want preachers to preach sermons that I like, in the style I like! Don’t ask me to give up anything for those stupid sinners! They’re probably reprobate anyway!!!
I want my ears tickled for once!!!
so, chad you are saying you are like the folks in
Joel Osteen and Mark Driscoll and Pagitt’s churches
and those mentioned in 2 TIMOTHY 4:3-4
How did you get that, J? I was quoting you.
And by the way, I do not see the similarity between someone like Osteen and someone like Pagitt or McLaren or Bell.
You are comparing apples to oranges.
what is the difference between them, then Chad
dont all of them preach pluraism and new-age teachings
What do you mean by teaching “pluralism”?
And “New age”?
Do you really not know the difference between someone like Osteen and Bell or McLaren? Or are you just lumping them all together because you disagree with all of them for individual reasons?
That’s the amazing thing to me. Bell preaches sermons that are for the most part very straightforward expository lessons. He goes through big chunks of Scripture at a time. Pagitt and McClaren have done similar things the few times I’ve heard them.
Osteen seems to come more from the old style pick-a-verse-that-is-loosely-associated-with-whatever-point-I’m-making-and-end-up-who-knows-where style of preaching. The ironic thing is that I see Osteen style of preaching more of direct result of the John MacArthur style of hermeneutics than the more socio-rhetorical method that Bell and others use.
I also find it funny that anyone would complain about Mark Driscoll’s preaching being watered-down. Driscoll may be many things, but he certainly doesn’t water things down or sugar-coat them.
Rob Bell and Doug Pagitt push “christian” yoga
Brian McLaren pushes universalism and has called people who take John 14:6 to be bigots
also, Brian mclaren and Mark Driscoll
both believes the 2nd coming of Jesus happened in 70 ad (aka preterism)
Driscoll pushes contemplative prayer aka transidential meditation
(which is a new-age and buddist teaching)
pluarism is saying that John 14:6 shouldnt be taken literally
Brian mcLaren and Doug Pagitt both have said that there are many ways to heaven
and that we should ignore John 14:6 in the bible
“why, Jerry
what dont you like about Paul washer”
as far as humans go, i neither like nor dislike washer. I don’t know him. but as far as preachers go, his theology is backward because he can’t decide if he’s a reformed calvinist or finnian protestant. his wishy-washy whining about how bad he was before Jesus got hold of him has been weighed in the balance and found wanting. and his crying. blah. blah. blah.
besides, don’t need to preach like anyone but myself. we don’t need ‘more like them.’ we need more honesty about who each of us in Christ.
jerry
Wow! Do you believe everything you read on the internet?
I bet you believe Microsoft is trying to impose a postage fee on emails and that Madalyn Murray O’Hair is trying to shut down Christian radio and TV…
If you really, honestly believe all those things you typed, it’s probably not worth your time to comment here. They all can be so easily debunked, it’s hardly worth the effort to explain them.
“Do you believe everything you read on the internet?” You bet I do…I also believe Madalyn O’Hair is going to send me money for every person I email this article to. I’ll be waiting by the mailbox for my $256,789.23 check; should be here any day.
Phil, in all seriousness, it might be helpful to create a stand alone article gleaned from past discussions here that addresses these particular accusations as a reference for newbees to the site who make these wild accusations.
preterism?!
R.C. Sproul is a pretty hardcore Preterist, don’t ya know. Yet somehow he manages to get quoted all the time on ODM blogs.
Actually, one can be a Preterist and not deny a future, final fulfillment of Christ’s coming.
So, you are saying that twisting the meaning of what someone says so as to attack them (since what they really said cannot be attacked) is not as bad as a disagreement on methodology?
I agree, the last thing we need is someone making the Bible relevant…
“Actually, one can be a Preterist and not deny a future, final fulfillment of Christ’s coming.” Actually agree with you on this one. Better stop
while I’m aheadwe’re even.So what?
Well, why it is sad this man was mis-quoted, the Episcopal Church in America and England is in great need of revival. They are by and large so largely removed from classical Christianity they are hemorrhaging members to the point of enviability, while their more conservative wings in 3rd world countries are experiencing tremendous growth. This is my personal opinion, but over the years I have amazed at this “church’s “continued abominations, up to and including literally sharing their alters with idols and false gods. I have little sympathy in the flesh for their current state of demise, but spiritually understand I should be in prayer for them. It’s difficult as this denomnination’s more egregious sins boggle the mind sometimes although I understand many local congregations do not agree with their national hierarchy to the point of scisim.
I guess that means the psalmist did as well. If, j, you cannot discern the difference between meditating on the word og God and a Buddhist teaching you got bigger things to learn…
I don’t agree with misappropriating quotes, but looking to the Beatles to explain the depths of God? Or for any other rock band for that matter?
It is spelled: APOSTATE
There used to be a concept – old-fashioned I know – that went like this: “Preach the word, be instant when people want to listen and when they don’t…”
Why?
“Because the time will come that they will not put up with sound teaching, but heap to themselves teachers having itching ears.”
Many here are attempting to crucify SoL (again) and overlooking the gross error of this blind leader.
I think that ALL truth belongs to God (I heard that yesterday in a sermon from a good Reformed professor.) We don’t need anything, but I’ll take it wherever I can find it. One never knows what truth might just be what saves someone regardless of where that truth comes from.
jerry
PS–misquoting that fellow ruined whatever valid criticism there may have been in the OP at SOL. The author purposely misrepresented some one’s words. That is downright egregious and thoroughly invalidates the point being made.
lying is wrong.
Generally recognition of the truth of the world, no matter what the source is referred to as wisdom, and not apostasy.
Perhaps this sounds familiar:
Bo,
There you went and quoted the Mars Hills sermon. Don’t you know that that’s not what Paul meant? I mean using those poets words to define God wasn’t being relevant it was being…well…it was something.
I’d agree (though I would call the twisting of someone’s words a greater sin than just “misappropriating” – but that aside) if the Rev was propossing that the words of the Beatles were tantamount to Scripture… but that’s not what he’s saying.
He’s advocating a tool. He’s advocating getting people into the Bible.
Yet again the drive-by discerners at SoL have mistook methods for meaning – it’s just this time they decided to do it through dishonest means.
Bo – unfortunately that is a tired argument. I advise you to read the actual article again.
Why is that people continually run to a single instance – a single line – in scripture, a mild reference to a poet, to justify all manner of foolishness in the name of ‘relevance’? Sometimes I wonder if this line was somehow omitted what we would dig up to justify nonsense…
The word of God, as described by Hebrews, is alive, powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword. That was 2000 yrs ago.
Today, we need Bono, Lennon and a number of other pop-stars to really draw out the truth about God. I get it – silly me.
This is the problem with his ministry – not the Bible.
Scripture + God’s Spirit = Word of God.
A blind leader if I’ve ever seen one…
Silly on in the sense that you have misinterpreted what was written in the arument and insist on creating a false dichotomy.
No one is saying there is…
No one is denying this…
I think we spend more time arguing against things that have not actually been said, then we do the real story.
One ODM twists a quote, invents an issue, and we spend hours trying to untie the deception…
What’s the matter Paul? Don’t you think the whole counsel of God should be taught and imitated?
Interestingly enough the only one dismissing scripture here is Paul C. Not coincidentally he is also the one that is giving a free pass to the lies of people he agrees with.
There’s plenty of scripture that backs Paul’s use of poets here. 1 Cor 9 is a primary example. Acts 26:14 is likely a line from a Greek play, additionally you have Paul using whichever traditions he finds himself in, including taking a Jewish ceremonial oath after spending quite a bit of time deliberately provoking Judaizers by following gentile customs.
That doesn’t make sense, unless your church strictly adheres to the culture of first century Palestine.
I don’t see the need for a church to try to ride the wave of every trend and fad, but the church has to speak to where people are living.
Wow…
…maybe I need to ease back into being in the real world again… So much wild disinformation and gross ignorance, so little time…
Maybe Rob Bell would just prefer to preach from the Bible the way God made Rob Bell to preach – instead of aping someone who is idolized by the washed and incomprehensible to the lost… (which seems a far more accurate reading of “having one’s ears tickled” than its misappropriation by the Armchair Mafia).
yes, God forbid anything preached should be applicable to living as a Christian in 2008. What we need are esoteric homilies which allow us to thump our chests at our hermeneutical prowess and proclaim victory in our theoretical dissection of scripture – heroes in our own minds without a scratch on our armor…
Did you really write that in any seriousness? Osteen’s preaching methodology, as noted by Phil, is basically John MacArthur in mechanics, with Creflo Dollar ideology.
Driscoll, on the other hand, preaches 60+ minutes every Sunday, 80% of the time expositionally, with more content in one Sunday than most “reformed” churches give in three… Of course, he has a sense of humor, which I guess must be surgically removed to be a “real” preacher in your book.
Bingo, Phil – you’ve basically condensed all of Chris R, J, PB, etc.’s arguments into three sentences….
Not the last time I checked…
I don’t listen all that much to Pagitt or McLaren, but I can tell you that Bell has touched on the exclusivity of Christ a number of times this year. (I’d also note that he’s spent all of this year, to date, going verse-by-verse through Philippians, expositorially…)
There’s a rather large difference between “pushing” Christian yoga, and accepting that Christians can participate in non-Hindu yoga. (For more on a balanced approach to ‘yoga’, see here and here.)
Wrong. McLaren is partial-preterist, and (unless he’s changed his mind in the past couple of months) Driscoll has been consistetly Pre-Mill in his eschatology.
Now you’re just pulling stuff out from where the sun doesn’t shine…
1) Contemplative prayer is not TM.
2) Driscoll hates both, calling folks who practice CP “navel-gazers”…
QFT
Translation – lying is bad, but not as bad as using music and art I don’t like…
Huh?!?
Yeah – APOSTATE – you know, like quoting Cretian philosophers, or using idols to unknown gods as object lessons, or by pointing out that the evidence of God exists within creation, whether or not you’ve ever been confronted with the scripture.
APOSTATE, you know, like the APOSTle Paul…
…oh wait…
Like wanting to hear the proper way to exegete Numbers 4, whether or not it is as relevant (or as challenging) as discussing how to apply Matt 25:40…
When I read y’all and the pining for more washers, I hear:
Geesh…
Why is that people continually run to a single instance – a single line – in scripture, a mild reference to tickling of ears, to justify all manner of foolishness in the name of slander.
I’m going to assume you have a Rob Bell quote to back this up with? Care to share it?
C’mon Joe you’ve been around this block a few times. They heard it from someone who heard it from someone who told it to their brother, who read it on LHT.
Thats as good as fact.
Thank you Chris,
BTW, since I’m here and sharing in this conversation. I see people complaining about other people using culturally signficant things to explain Biblical truth. Would that be like Jesus using things around Him? Or Paul using culturally relevant things in his day? Or would that even be like them using the internet and a blog?
FALSE: I simply pondered what scripture people would run to if not for this single reference on which many have built a golden calf.
Hmmm – after specifically stating that I do not agree with misquoting/misrepresenting the words of others to make a point.
That’s what I mean – are you actually being serious here? Without that single line we go to far out stretches like this that don’t even make sense. Goodness me.
The funny thing is that because someone doesn’t agree with bringing in foolishness into the church (ie: Beatles being an oracle of God) they are automatically charged with being irrelevant.
It seems you guys are missing the very point you are fighting for.
Here are the points.
1. the rant on Sol twists the article to say something different than it meant – which is dishonest/
2. you have made all sort of statements – some are true – but irrelevant since no one denies them
3. you have assumed things were said, then addressed them – yet the things you assume were never said.
Neil – for the 3rd time now – I never condoned dishonesty and still don’t. Not sure why that is the case here.
I was simply saying that though that might be the case, many here are overlooking the absurdity of the person written about in the referred article. Yes, of course – you will claim this is useless…
Really? how so?
Here’s what the man in question said:
This is simply untrue and is a gross error and misrepresentation if I’ve ever heard one. In fact, this is a lie because he is distorting the truth dangerously.
He is using his own weakness (the inability to be vessel through which God makes the word alive, rendering it simply “an ancient book”) to justify using Ringo and McCartney, neither of which are believers as far as I know, as one of his oracles.
To make matters worse, everyone piles onto a single scripture (I think it was Bo who made the leap to somehow suggest Acts 26:14 is also Greek poetry!) to further bolster a poor argument.
In your desire to represent the truth, you are finding yourself advocating error. In your zeal to crucify one of your regulars, you also seem to miss the point, no?
chrisL, show me where Mark Driscoll preaches anything but preterism
phil, I guess you are saying what Pagitt promotes at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_34SH8jVec
is made up too
In context I believe he is talking aout the unbeliever… in which case this may be an accurate statement.
Relevance?
No. the point was to show how deceptive and dishonest the post at Sol was… the rest is tangential.
cf. comment 43
That’s right. The quote was a vile misrepresentation of a man of God, a minister of Christ. I find that repugnant and disingenuous.
Someone needs to repent and apologize.
jerry
PS–one time, i did a four-sermon series of sermons based on lines from U2 music. My favorite: Daddy’s gonna pay for your crashed car. Is there a better definition of grace?
All througout his “Vintage Jesus” series, he frequently used futurist language when referencing Jesus’ prophecies, for starters….
Supporting Christians participating in yoga as exercise is not “pushing” Christian yoga. In the interview, Pagitt just disagrees that it is forbidden for Christians to participate. We’ve discussed this at length in the past, but all of the Christian ‘yoga’ classes I’m familiar with do not use Hindu artifacts, and use scripture for meditation…
Let me know when you decide not to celebrate Easter, Christmas, or Olympic sports before you start a bunch of ignorant blether about adaptation of pagan practices…
Or…
Let me know when you decide not to use the names of the days of the week, or the names of the planets before you start a bunch of ignorant blether about adaptation of pagan practices…
I guess chris, then you are saying
Caryl Matrisciana
who is A Former New Age Follower who is critical about “Christian Yoga
dont know what she is talking about either
I guess you would also say that
Brian Flynn of One Truth Minsitries
who is another ex-new-ager and critic of “christian yoga” dont know what he is talking about either
http://www.onetruthministries.com/yoga.htm
Apparently you haven’t read the links from previous conversations on the subject (including our deconstruction of the paranoia of Flynn, who sees “New Age” hiding around every corner). Caryl is pretty much in the same boat, as well.
Certainly, for folks who have escaped from New Age traps, it may be necessary for them to avoid the behaviors that led to sin in the past – kind of the way that alcoholics need to abstain for the rest of their lives to avoid falling off the wagon.
Fortunately, though, we have teaching like Jesus’:
And Paul’s to guide us:
Now, certainly we should be careful with weaker brothers like Flynn, Matrisciana and, possibly, yourself, by not flaunting the freedom we have in Christ. But, neither should we play to the most immature, common denominator in day-to-day life, either.
Regardless, your attacks on Pagitt, Bell, Driscoll and others are pretty much proven to be full of crap…
chris, since you say pagitt says we should do yoga
you wouldnt have a problem if Pagitt said
hypothetically that using ouija boards or channeling dead spirits would be okay
also, I have a question for Chris
I would like you to explain to me, what does
the bible verses below really mean,
if you guys dont believe it is possibly happening within the church now.
since you guys say that christian yoga and contemplative prayer are okay for the church.
I would like you guys to explain to me what the bible verses below mean,
and prove to me, they arent happening now within the church.
—————————————————-
Matthew 24:24
For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
2 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths
1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
And by “full of crap”, I mean “so false that they could easily be categorized as lying”…
so, chris
you are saying that warren smith and brian flynn and Caryl Matrisciana
and any other ex-new-ager turned christian
who is a critic of rick warren and the emergent church
are weaker brothers and sisters in christ
cause they are critical of brian mclaren and doug pagitt and rick warren
J
Does that mean you don’t have a quote from Rob?
~The Original J
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jYHhKa81Ds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zps2zws10hE
Well, except for the specific part of scripture that expressly prohibits divination and contacting the spirits of the dead…
You can’t say the same about either low-impact stretching with meditation upon Scripture (sometimes referred to as “Christian Yoga”) or contemplative prayer. Both are boogeymen made up by folks who are still slaves to the Law, not Christ.
Tell you what, let’s see if you can answer a few questions:
1) What body positions are ontologically evil?
2) Do you celebrate Christmas?
3) Do you celebrate Easter?
4) Do you drink tea?
5) Do you watch the Olympics – or any competitive sports?
6) By what names do you refer to the days of the week and the months of the year?
7) Do you use a Julian calendar, or are you on the Jewish lunar calendar?
8 ) Do you believe Christians can practice any martial arts (for self-defense)?
9) Is the word “fortunately” in your vocabulary?
_____________________
As for interpreting the verses you cite:
Matthew 24:24 – Already happened, as we have record from Josephus of multiple Messiahs who arose to challenge Rome and lead the Jewish people. This particular passage is part of the Olivet Discourse, which was fulfilled in 70 A.D., as fulfillment of Jesus’ words at the end of this passage:
2 Timothy 4:3-4There will always be false teachers – like the health-and-wealth folks – who tell people that God wants them to be rich and healthy. There will also be those teachers, like many Reformed, Evangelical and Fundamentalist teachers, who reduce the gospel to a mental exercise and doctrine to theoretical purity of opinion. Both of these play to the “itching ears” of their respective crowds…
1 Timothy 4:1Again, this has already happened in the first century, and has continued throughout history. The doctrine of devils would deny that Jesus saves, but rather that man can save himself apart from Christ. Aside from Osteen, I’m not sure I see anyone you’ve named that fits this bill.
j,
What is it with you and these freakin’ Youtube videos?
No one cares about them. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the way I see it all these people who are out trying to expose every other pastor as a heretic are for the most part just one big mutual admiration society with every member trying to prove they are more righteous and discerning than the next.
Seriously, I don’t usually ge angry very quickly, but seeing this kind of idiocy is just so frustrating to me. I guess it’s one thing when a non-Christian attacks the Church, but when the attack are from fellow Christians, it’s almost sickening.
Sorry J,
I want Rob’s words. Do you have them? Can you point me to a YouTube Video where Rob advocates Yoga?
~J
Can you pile more faulty logic into a single sentence?
I’m saying that ANYONE who elevates personal convictions to the level of Scriptural absolutes for the purpose of controlling the actions of other Christians (through direct control – a la Johnnie Mac – or through implied control/demonization – a la Flynn, Silva, J, and company) is acting in a manner that is legalistic and is the classic definition of a weaker brother.
Warren, Pagitt, Bell, MacArthur, Piper and ANY and EVERY human teacher are all imperfect, and have behaviour/belief which can be criticized – just like all of us. In this particular case, though, you’re about as credible as a promise from Obama…
Phil,
Be patient with J, we have no idea if he or she is actually a Christ follower or not. For all we know, he or she may be a wolf in sheep’s clothing that has been deceived by the evil one.
I’m not sure what your videos of whack-jobs outside of Bell’s speaking engagements are supposed to prove… Having been inside (rather than mischaracterizing what was said inside and acting in an unChristian manner outside, accosting strangers with paranoid fantasies), your credibility is sinking like a stone…
Oh snap!
J. Things will go better if you refrain from illogical jumps into hyperbole. Say’n we advocate divination because we not prohibit yoga… well, it’s like asking if we allow rape and pedophilia because we do not prohibit sex.
Neil
I need to write that one down.
Gosh Chris L…I know you’re not a big MacArthur fan, but did you have to mention him and OSTEEN in the same sentence?!! (Comment #46) (I wouldn’t that to Jack Cottrell for crying out loud.)
Osteen couldn’t preach a good sermon using ANYBODY’S notes or methods!
Correction #78: “I wouldn’t DO that to Jack Cottrell…”
J,
)
This is what I don’t understand; how can you guys have so much appreciation for people that build “ministries” out of criticizing people?
Hope y’all don’t mind an extra-biblical reference that I got from my pastor last Sunday from Eleanor Roosevelt (no relation to Eleanor Rigby
Sorry, Keith – was talking about methodology, not theology…
Best Beatles’ reference YET!
So many lies and accusations in one post! WOW!
J, the position of liar and accuser is already taken. There is no need to contend for that position.
Chris L: Apology accepted. (Whew! Almost had ourselves an incident there!)
8^)>
Great minds talk about ideas, average minds talk about events, small minds talk about people, and stupid minds talk about what other minds talk about.
.
Joe, # 71…
Try the Nooma ‘Breathe’ and do a search on google about Rob’s sermon of the same name. He names Yoga, and uses a breathing method taught by Yoga, and tells us so….
Pagitt’s wife teaches Yoga on Sunday mornings at their ‘church’.
Wow, PB. So now breathing is ontologically evil.
Have you seen Breathe? That is one of my favorite NOOMAs. I hope the website your getting your “research” from isn’t this one:
http://www.gregoryreid.com/id189.htm
what a joke if that is the case.
Hey, Hitler breathed, so breathing must be evil…
In my church we breathe as little as possible! In fact, a true sign of righteousness is blacking out from lack of oxygen.
And Jesus “breathed on them” and said, “receive the Holy Spirit.” Since Jesus breathed, and Hitler breathed, they probably both read portions of Mark Goodacre’s book at B&N and are full of liberal tripe.
Would somebody PLEASE yell “Ollie ollie oxen free” and end this thing!!!???
Phil given your Pentecostal roots I thought you called that being “slain in the spirit”.
*No breathing occurred during the typing of this post.
Chad,
Yes, I have seen the video in its entirety. It is well produced. It has enough truth in it it to fool most Christ-followers. But it is not about breathing, as your buddies sarcastically imply. If you know anything about Yoga, Zen Buddhism, and some New Age practices, what bell promotes, with his christianese ruach (I know its hebrew) is just a pig (pagan practices) with lipstick (Jewish word) on it to justify bringing these meditative contemplative practices into the church. I am not buying it!
And no, I didn’t use that site for research, but I am going to check it out! If you don’t like it, it is probably right on the money!!
here is the audio….bottom of Page….Rob’s own words….deny it if you can!
PB – quoting from Christian yoga teachers is hardly “pushing” yoga.
I’ve heard this sermon about four times now. It definitely loses something w/o visuals and/or presence.
Here’s the thing, though – everyone’s learning style is different, with many folks (primarily adults) who best learn experientially, not verbal didactics. Most learning professionals can explain the 70-20-10 rule to you: Basically, it goes like this:
What you learn as an adult comes from experience (70%), relationships (20%) and formal instruction (10%).
So, in this particular case, Bell is leaning on the 70% to make a point about spirit (pneuma) and how it applies to the individual. So, basically, you, Johnnie Mac, etc., just continue to harp on folks who decide that perhaps we ought to use 90% of the way that people actually learn, rather than pleasing ourselves and “tickling our own ears” by declaring that the 10% is the only legitimate avenue…
To boil it down, you’ve taken a single sermon illustration and tried conflate it to make it part-and-parcel “proof” the Bell is “pushing yoga”.
So, basically, with this argument of yours, only a couple of conclusions seem viable – either a) you’re a liar and a deceiver, or b) you’re an idiot with an axe to grind.
Which is it?
I can’t listen to the audio here, but judging from the comments on that page, it seems Bell said something about breathing and inviting the Holy Spirit to come in. If that’s case, I have to wonder what the big deal is.
Do you honestly believe that if a Christians prays for the Holy Spirit to come and dwell within him that an evil spirit will come in? I tend to have more assurance of God’s hold on me than that.
I guess it gets back to a fundamental difference on how we view the world. I believe that God creation is good, and it was distorted and polluted by the Fall, but God’s fingerprints are still all over the place. So I believe that most pagan practices are perversions (or parodies, as N.T. Wright says) of things that God gave us for our benefit. It’s not the other way around. So I think a Christian’s job in the world is about working with God in a redemptive fashion to restore His creation. That can mean claiming back truth from certain things like in art, music, and practice.
So getting back to my original post, if a “secular” band happens to write something that is true, they don’t own that truth – God does. If their somehow communicate a truth, than why not take advantage of it?
Well, Chad…
His audience was primarily youth, if you really listened you would have caught that.
Don’t condescend, please. I am a licensed teacher, am 50% towards a masters degree in curriculum and instruction, have taught and am preparing to teach at a University at the conclusion of my Masters preparation. I know how to teach, I am up on the studies. You also discount the 30% who are auditory learners not kinesthetic or visual in your assumptions.
And Chad, when you call your brother raca (fool, idiot) you are in danger of judgement. The Bible calls hatred murder. Getting personal and calling names is below your divinity education, for whatever it is worth.
You just broke my irony detector.
..but apparently not how to read
You should pay more attention to who you are addressing in the future, um, “Professor”
PB –
1) I’m not Chad.
2) Raca (sometimes translated ‘fool’) is a statement of a person’s value (i.e. worthless). Idiot, on the other hand, is a statement of someone’s mental capability, not their value as a human being. Two different things, entirely. (Additionally, I left the choice to you as to whether the root cause of your error was willful malice or just plain ignorance).
3) I wasn’t trying to condescend – most people I know don’t understand modes of learning.
Perhaps listening comprehension isn’t your bag either…
This particular homily (”The Theology of Breathing”) was to a group of adults on one of Mars Hill’s communion Sundays (where the sermon is shorter than normal, and a good deal of time is spent in communion) Memorial Day weekend 2005.
Additionally, you help make my point, in noting that only 30% of adults are auditory learners. Thus, it is even more important that when you teach Biblical truth, you should do so in a diversity of means, so as to best reach the 70% who aren’t auditory learners.
______________
To expand a bit – do you ever take aspirin or other pharmaceuticals when you’re sick? Do you ever take walks outside to improve your mood? Do you listen to music for pleasure?
All of these things alter your body chemistry, and are ways that we physiologically adjust our bodies to maintain a degree of health.
Now, just because it was a pagan that first noticed that breathing patterns, body positions, and stretching has a beneficial physiological effect, does not mean that those things are ontologically evil. In fact, it’s pretty much identical to Paul’s description of the ‘evidence of Creation’, and the inherent goodness in God’s creation that has been corrupted by sin.
It is not sinful to participate in yoga-like exercises. However, it would be sinful to worship another god in the process of doing so, which is why practitioners of Christian yoga have removed the pagan aspects, replacing them with God’s truth in Scripture.
Certainly, weaker brothers like yourself and J, potentially, should not participate if your personal conviction is against such things. However, that doesn’t justify your legalism in elevating your personal conviction to the level of a moral absolute.
Are you talking about Rob’s message? No, it wasn’t. I was there for that message. I sat 4 rows back from the front. Right next to a row full of Sr. citizens.
I’m hurt that pastorboy continues to shun all my questions to him…
Anway, speaking generically, I don’t understand why some practices discovered/created by pagans are acceptabe and others are not…
Neil
That’s why my family doesn’t celebrate Christmas, no bridesmaids at weddings, and I’m trying to get people to give up clothes and just wear loin clothes made out of rabbit skins…
I recommend sheepskin – less chafing…
Neil,
What was your question? Not avoiding you…
Sorry, different sermon… I heard a similar message addressed to youth. My fault. I am trying to locate that one now…
Chris L, calling you Chad was a complement. Your writing styles are so different. You only left me two options in your perfect, all knowing judgement. The first one is patently false, so it had to be the second one. So, you called me an idiot, which is not very loving. You are also calling me immature because I believe the practice of Yoga is paganism, that you cannot remove the religious connotations from it, and when you point to a Yoga master as your reference, you are elevating a Pagan, as Bell did.
So, whatever.
John,
I was curious what shcools you were getting your degees from.
Neil
The question that has never been sufficiently answered is why certain postures are fixed as evil…
…or to put it another way…
The same people who say you cannot be a Christian just by going through the motions, somehow think you become Hindu… by going through the motions…
My apologies, here’s the third option – that you are mistaken, and wish to retract the lies you’ve told…
Seriously, though, there are only two options when it comes to lying and spreading falsehood – either a) it is maliciously intended; or b) it is falsehood borne of ignorance. Nothing unloving in boiling it down to the logical choice. Repentance is always an option, though, should you decide to choose it…
So, I guess, when you state that Bell is “pushing yoga” and “elevating Pagans”, you either have to a) admit you’re a liar and a slanderer; or b) admit you’re a functional illiterate who’s willing to spread lies about things he has no comprehension of…
I am calling you a ‘weaker brother’ because you have taken something not explicitly forbidden in Scripture and elevated it to a personal conviction of right and wrong (a la eating meat sacrificed to idols).
What is Yoga? There are primarily two components – a physical component and a mental/spiritual one. I’ve not yet heard you make an argument that the physical component is ontologically evil. So, we have the mental/spiritual component. To the classic yogist, the mental component is arranged around Hindu worship. Christian yoga (which, I would greatly agree, ought to be given a different name, just to avoid the confusion), however, replaces the Hindu mental/spiritual component with meditation upon Scripture.
Now, there are weaker brothers, like yourself, who cannot accept this (despite all of the contradictions it creates in the 95% of your day-to-day life that integrates once-pagan practices whose roots are no longer as well known). Certainly you should abstain from participating. However, you cross the line into abject legalism and Phariseeism when you try to impose your convictions upon other Christians, whom you term apostate if they don’t accept your abiblical view.
The person to whom Bell pointed was a practitioner of Christian yoga, so no, he was not elevating a pagan.
So – are you purposely slandering Rob or are you just too ignorant to understand that you are slandering him?
Well, that’s certainly not an immature answer!!!
I know you are, but what am I?!?!
106: There are only so many positions the body can be posed, and any yoga teacher will admit they didn’t invent every posture. The plow position (lie on your back and bring your feet up over your to floor above your head) is a good stretching exercise and a yoga position. However, if you’re not using any of the Sanskrit (sacred language of the Hindus) or visualization exercises to empty your mind, then you haven’t crossed that threshold. Stretch away and enjoy yourself.
The problem is, and I linked to an article a long time ago about this, in the eyes of Hindus, all yoga is Hinduism. What upsets them is that there is no Jesus in Hinduism, as there is no Brahman, Shiva, or Vishnu in Christianity and they feel their religion has been co-opted and run down. All those Hindus practicing yoga are not doing them for the health benefits.
Communion and baptism are serious events for us. What would be our reaction if someone started a wine tasting party and called it communion, complete with servers dressed in the usual vestments, and it started catching on? Or calling a day at a water park or a water aerobics class a baptism?
Joe said: “That’s why my family doesn’t celebrate Christmas…” It’s a Festivus miracle!!!
8^)>
Sandman – that’s why I think it would be better for all to find a different term for “Christian yoga” – avoids all of the confusion and some of the venom…
How ’bout “non-pagan bending” or “demon-free stretching”…
We’d say they have missed the point and were not really practicing the things they say because they have changes.gutted the meaning. Which proves the point Chris L., I, and other are making…
Let’s turn the tables, what would we say if a weaker-brother Hindu admonished those at the wine-tasting that they were glorifying Christ by going through those motions… we’d say – no they are not, they have rendered them meaningless. Same with “Christian-yoga.”
Neil
Maybe it’s time for a refresher course in the problems with using “Christian” as an adjective.
LINK
In a sense this is exactly what happened when christians co-opted the practice of baptism. I am sure many of the Roman mystery religions, when learning that Christians were baptizing, thought they had some similarities. These create teaching opportunities for the Christian community (and Paul took every opportunity to do just that).
One thing I think we fail to recognize is that everything is finitely good. There is nothing that is evil in itself – evil is not some created thing. All that is and every was and will be is created by God and God declared “good.” Breathing and stretching are good. In themselves they are not evil. The recognition by some that these are God given gifts and can be used to feed the soul is good. How we direct that good and to whom it is directed is the question and the answer determines whether it remains “good” or is on the way towards corruption.
Chad,
Christians co-opted baptism from the Romans? Not sure I’m buying what your selling even if the point might be valid at some level. Baptism has its roots in the Torah, not Rome.
{That’s the only time I’ll go off topic.}
jerry
PS: I dislike yoga. People keep telling me it is good for digestion, but I think it tastes gross and sour. I do, however, like pudding.
Jerry,
in light of your question I see how I did not communicate my point very well. It is true that baptism has roots in Torah but the practice of baptism does predate even that. But that isn’t my point. My point is that baptism was practiced by many of the Roman mystery religions and being “the new kid on the block” (i.e. Christians were different from Jews) from the point of the Roman citizen (like from the point of the Hindu) Christians would seem to be using their practice wrongly.
I found a series of lectures on-line from Reformed Theological Seminary by a professor named John Currid. Some people accuse Christians, he says, of plagiarism because, for example, there is an account of Creation in the Bible that roughly parallels with some pagan literature creation stories. They say, thus, that ‘ours’ is just one among many stories and thus none of them can be counted upon as truth.
My point in bringing this up is that his point is that Christians (or ancient Israelites) did such things intentionally to point to the true God. They did things like this, then, deliberately so as to show the folly of the pagan version. I agree with his assessment.
So, if the ancient Hebrews did such things (and Currid demonstrates many, many examples of such ‘plagiarism’ in the Scripture), and those things became for us Scripture, then why should we abandon the practice of plagiarizing our own culture in order to point to the true God? Perhaps we should co-opt ‘yoga’ in order to point to the true God that Hindus are missing amidst their plethora of idols and gods.
It gets back to that old, and tired, adage, ‘why should the debbil have all the good music?’ Maybe yoga is inherently Christian and it needs to be taken back from the pagans? It’s the same thing with the days of the week, ‘holidays,’ etc. Currid’s point, I think, is that we ought to do so.
Chad–I got it. You know how we Restoration guys are about baptism. Thanks.
yrrej
Great points, Jerry.
Was it not Augustine who said: Love God with all your heart, soul, body and mind and then go do as you please.
113: Chris L, we’re on the same page, I believe. I would say there needs to be a new name for yoga and emerging and emergent…and a few other words that have been so overly used that there is no clear definition anymore.
Laurette Willis started Praise Moves (a Christian alternative to yoga) after practicing and teaching yoga for 20 years or so. And a health club near my home advertise a stretching class that’s an alternative to yoga.
115: I tend to disagree with the use of the term “weaker brother” in this context. It has the potential to be used, unfairly, as license to disregard, discount or dismiss whatever that person says. The eating of literal food offered to idols is a bit different from being the one offering food, via worshipful poses, to idols.
To your point, I would further argue that they not only rendered them meaningless, but that it cheapens and mocks the authentic ceremonies when they insist on presenting them as communion and baptism.
116: I haven’t read the link yet, but I don’t agree with using Christian as an adjective either. People have used it to “baptize” a number of illegitimate things.
117: Chad, the Jews were doing baptisms before there were ever any Christians, and Christianity comes out of Judaism, so if there are any similarities or borrowing, I’d argue the mystery religions could very well have been doing the b0rrowing.
But again, the Hindus are the ones saying all the various types of yoga (hatha yoga is the bone of contention) is Hinduism. They should know since it’s their practice.
Before the fall, though. After that, nothing in creation works the way it’s supposed to.
The question is “why we even care about what the various Armchair Mafia sites write, or why we spend time debunking their attacks?” If the issue just pertained to arguments in cyberspace or on the radio waves it would be one thing. But I was the Sr. Pastor of a Bible church where certain antagonists were downloading info from the so-called Armchair Mafia sites and distributing it at the Youth Group Meetings, AWANA, and even between the Sunday Morning Worship services. They emailed internet links to most of the people in the congregation and sent out hundreds of letters warning about imaginary “dangers and deceptions.”
When the dust settled, four of the seven pastors had resigned (including myself) and four of the seven elders had resigned. Even though the remaining pastors and elders tried to pacify the antagonists, they ended up leaving the church anyway and took the entire AWANA program of over 400 kids in mass to another church. To me, the issue of why we care runs deep and is even painful.
Sandman,
This does not negate the fact that everything is finitely good. How we manipulate and use that which is good for our own purposes is fallout from the fall. The fall does not mean that God’s good creation is now broken. Our desires are.
Yes, Christianity arose from Judaism but that is not who the Romans saw it. They saw it as a new religion that is using baptism (and using it in a way and for a purpose different from Judaism, btw). Romans like old stuff – it is why they tolerated the Jews. They disliked new stuff, or new religions, especially when those religions did not embrace their gods. From the Roman POV the Christian who is using baptism would seem like a form of appeasment.
Neil:
Education Masters in Curriculum and Instruction: University of Minnesota
Christian Leadership MA: Crown College
Biblical Studies MA, Dbs, Biblical Studies, Masters Divinity School
My CV is not on the web yet, do you need it?
So, if I am right, we need to rename some things, Here are my Suggestions:**
Christian to Christ Follower
Emergent to Post Modern Pelagian UniversalistAbortion on Demand to Less Abortions
Yoga to Non Denominational Posing Excersises to help you breathe and focus on deity outside yourselfDuke Divinity School to Duke School of Liberal Studies of the Bible and other Religious Artifacts that have No Place in Post-Modern culture.CRN.Info and Analysisto Liberally Biased Ecumenical christian Contemporary Research and Opinion based on a Variety of Extra-Biblical teachers and no discernment. info
**Satire
Pastorboy,
No, but thanks. I just wondered which schools were still conservative enough for you.
Neil
Neil,
I am disappointed to say that Crown, my alma mater, is drifting periously close to being too liberal for my tastes.
Pastorboy,
After your failed attempt at guilt by association with the whole liberals at Duke fiascal… I’d think you’d not want to bring that up again… also, satire really only works if their is enough truth in it, since most of your suggestions are so extreme as to be ridiculous – it fails as well.
Neil
What have they done?
How is any of that satire? Do you realize there’s a difference between satire and asshattery?
Although… now that I read your proposal on what to call “Yoga” it might actual pass the muster of many in the armchaor discernment crowd – if you just change “deity” to “Blessed Redeemer” or something like that…
PB – “I am disappointed to say that Crown, my alma mater, is drifting perilously close to being too liberal for my taste.”
That may be the funniest thing you’ve ever written! I honestly don’t think you know what the word liberal means!! (Says another Crown alumnus)
PB thinks a liberal is someone who tips 20%
We did use a Richard Foster book while I was there…
Earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, tornadoes, grapefruit size hail, disease, famine, death, shark attacks, animals feeding on other animals, the whole red, tooth, and claw bit suggests the world we have now is not the world as it originally was.
I can agree with that.
Romans 8:20-23 suggests otherwise, as do the physical laws of the universe. I don’t mean to be totally contrarian, because there are a lot of good things to behold in the world, but it’s contaminated, soup to nuts, in spite of it all.
Sandman,
There is a difference between being created finitely “good” and being within a world that is fallen and awaiting full restoration/redemption.
Natural disasaters and diseases, famines and death and the rest of the things you named are not created things nor are they something essential to my being (like breathing).
Let’s not get personal – OK?
Driscoll believes in transcendental meditation? Not quite:
“First, there is God. Those seeking to connect directly with God apart from such things as the mediation of Jesus Christ or the revelation of Scripture are guilty of non-Christian mysticism.” (”Listening to Beliefs of Emerging Churches – page 25)
“Sixth, come to Scripture meditatively. Christian meditation differs from non-Christian forms of meditation. Christian meditation is not passively emptying one’s mind, looking inward for guidance, or detaching oneself from the world. Christian meditation is actively filling one’s mind with Scripture to hear from God and subsequently be transformed by God to effectively serve Him in the world. In short, Christian meditation is prolonged, focused, thoughtful, and prayerful deep thinking on the truths of who God is and what God has said and done according to Scripture.” (On the New Testament – page 51)
Driscoll is not a Preterist either. Though he doesn’t seem to discuss this area of eschatology much, my guess is he’s Amillennial luck many within the Reformed camp. I’m Pre-Mill, but love my A-Mill brothers.
Peace….
Chad,
I pretty much agree with you, but may be getting stuck “arguing” semantically around a couple of words and I apologize for that.
I was going to say in an earlier reply, “you can’t not breathe for too very long.” But, like Eric says in 139, in the Eastern religions, the whole point of the breathing exercises is to aid in stilling or emptying the mind. So when the house is empty and clean and swept…. My point is, arguing from the flip side, that since the fall, every gift and blessing given to us has been abused and misused, and we really can’t do a return to Eden. In terms of breathing, I think about people who have been involved in “scarfing.” They’re having a great old time until OOPS! they’ve asphyxiated. Dead. Who is there for them now? It was just a breathing control thing.
Where I’m coming from (for a number of reasons) is the position that distinctives need to be maintained. If we could make it up as we go along, then we wouldn’t have been admonished not to exceed what is written. This is especially true when we get the idea to take something interesting from another religion outside of Christianity, baptize and Christianize it to the point that it begins to resemble any other religion in form and function. We have a lot of freedom in Christ, but not that much.
Sandman, I can appreciate the sentiment behind this. I would agree that there are indeed distinctives that must be maintained. The question, perhaps then, is what are those distinctives and who decides them? I would want to say that Christians should be distinctively known for their love. We should be in the business of out-loving the other. If we were doing that I would guess we would be doing much in the way of being distinct from the world.
Sadly, Christians have defined love in such a way that, paradoxically, it removes a person from ever having to be in relationship. “Love” becomes “truth-telling” and we are told the best way to love someone is to remind them they are going to hell. Very convenient for those who don’t want to eat with sinners.
In a Church climate where we have attached an agenda to love we have in effect rendered ourselves undistinct to the world. We love just like everyone else. However, we are conscious of this disturbing fact and so we devise new ways and means to make us look distinct from others. We become legalists. If you cannot tell me apart from a Hindu by the way I love relentlessly and selflessly, even to the point of death, then perhaps you can tell I am different from him or her because I do not do yoga or breath the same way. If you cannot tell that I am a Christian because I love no differently than the pagan than I will not celebrate Christmas or Easter or any number of things that the pagan does so that I can be distinct. And the wheel goes round and round.
I agree we should be distinct. Where we may disagree is in what ways.
grace and peace.
My church is doing a series right now called “confessions of a sinful church,” where, from the perspectives of many, the church has been anything but Christlike, and we, the church, need to apologize.
It’s opened a can of worms, no doubt.
Back to the grind I go.
Chad,
I guess Im a liberal then by that standard. I always tip 20% because I always leave a tract and I know too many Christians who stiff servers.
Corey,
So did I and a Dallas Willard book and Eugene Peterson….AB Simpson and Tozer are rolling in their graves.