Friends,
In a recent email conversation, with a person who shall remain anonymous, I was treated to a ‘My job and the role God has given me is to defend His truth, to stand against error and shine HIs [sic.] light into the darkness” blast. That’s fine.
Last night, while reading through chapter 1 of Eugene Peterson’s newest book Tell it Slant, I read this fine quote from Nathaniel Hawthorne:
“His instruments have no consciousness of His purpose; if they imagine they have, it is a pretty sure token that they are not his instruments.”
It is terribly hard to have a conversation with someone who has been hand-picked by God to do anything. In the end, so said Gamaliel, we end up ‘fighting against God.’
Have a nice day.
jerry
This entry was posted
on Thursday, October 23rd, 2008 at 7:29 am and is filed under Devotional.
You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed.
Both comments and pings are currently closed.
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
36 Comments(+Add)
or the equally great conversation enders:
“God told me that you…”
“It say it plainly in scripture”
“If would only seek God you would understand”
When we started using Gods name to hammer someone into “our” image it is no longer Christianity.
* It says plainly
* If you would only
A “fine quote”? Poor confused Paul, who opened most of his New Testament letters by stating his credentials as an apostle of Christ Jesus. Certainly he was no instrument of God.
I am sorry for you that as a pastor you must have no sense of calling to ministry or otherwise you would have to place yourself squarely in the non-instrument camp according to your “fine quote”.
As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and
emasculate themselvesappoint for themselves Priests who will be extra special and extra close to God!EVD,
There’s quite a bit of difference between Paul’s introductory remarks and what Jerry’s referring to here.
Paul’s remarks are rather general, whereas the standard Armchair Mafioso’s claims quite often fall afoul the third commandment…
On the one hand I too have some reservations with the quote – I think people can be very conscious of their instrumentality…
On the other hand, I have seen far too many claim to be doing God’s work when they so clearly “Know not what they do…”
Maybe there is a formula that explains the continuum… something like:
The likelihood that a person is indeed an instrument of God is directly and inversely proportionate to the amount of time they spend declaring themselves to be the instrument of God.
In other words, the more you quotes your instrumentality status, the less likely you are one…
Eric,
I’m not a pastor. I’m a preacher.
Jerry
Chris L -
I guess I’d have to disagree that Paul’s comments are rather general. On the contrary, he is quite specific in his calling.
That aside, I don’t disagree that some people go to far to proclaim themselves as messengers of God and thus exalt themselves.
Rather, I was responding to what Jerry called a “fine quote” that I don’t believe bears out as a fine quote. It seems as though he may have simply picked a quote that would support his assertion, but the quote says so much more that I could not agree with.
I think humility is the key word here. I’ve certainly read pronouncements of status that would seem to have the intent of exalting oneself for the purpose of gaining an upper hand in a discussion.
Obviously Paul, as an actual apostle and dealing with resistors who questioned his authority was right to proclaim his credentials. In other places he clearly balances that with humility.
Bo – I’m not sure what your reaction to my comment is supposed to mean. I hope you were not labeling me an agitator and suggesting that I emasculate my self. Very strange response.
Jerry -
If you’d like to split hairs, that’s fine. I’m suprised that you’d rather do that than respond the actual base content of my comment.
I’m at work on my BB when I get home I will disagree with your comment.
Eric,
back to your thoughts…Nathaniel Hawthorne was a good puritan and the quote is fine.
What you call a ‘picked out quote’ I call providence. It was there. I didn’t ask for it. It was just there.
Finally, I disagree.
jerry
Jerry -
Whether or not Nathaniel Hawthorne was a good puritan is immaterial. The fact is, the quote is false. It is pattently false to say that if you are conscious of God’s purpose (calling) for you that you are likely not his instrument.
If a maxim such as this is true, it is certainly true across time, and the example of Paul alone show this maxim to be false.
You may not have “asked for it”, but you certainly chose to use it to back your argument, unless you’re claiming divine inspiration.
Eric-
I think Jerry’s point is not all that hard to grasp. It is a call to humility, as I see it. Those who speak the loudest and most arrogantly about the purposes of God, especially as it pertains to someone else, are clanging gongs.
Chad -
I never said or otherwise indicated that Jerry’s point is hard to grasp. In fact, if you read my response to Chris L, you’ll notice that I agree with some of Jerry’s point, although we may differ on application and degree. I also spoke there of humility, so as that goes, we’re likely close to on the same page.
I do however, contend that the quote that he used is wrong. If you chose to disagree, so be it.
“His instruments have no consciousness of His purpose; if they imagine they have, it is a pretty sure token that they are not his instruments.”
This contradicts much of the Bible; since I’m studying Ephesians now I see it as especially contradicting what Paul has written there.
I don’t see how it can be called a “fine quote.”
I believe the core of the quote was dealing with pride, and the self righteousness that can accompany being a preacher of the gospel. Someone named Jesus once suggested we call ourselves “unprofitable servants”.
Paul said he was the “least of the apostles” and the “chief of all sinners”. A far cry from a truth warrior.
Neil, you’re close. Just substitute “to the amount of time” with “to the square of the amount of time”.
Once again, Rick nails it. Rock on, bro!
Amy,
It is likely that you haven’t read it or, perhaps, that it hits too closely to home for your comfort.
Thank you Rick for being a true man of discernment and getting it just right.
jerry
I can understand the intent of the quote and agree with Rick, but I also agree with Amy that it is not a technically accurate statement and can think of several Biblical exceptions off the top of my head. But why let the facts get in the way of a meaty sound bite, eh? It fits more the false prophet who boasts they have heard from God (when they have not) vs. someone who is well aware of the call of God on their life.
P.S. Don’t know why I said “eh”. Oh, wait. I was talking to that Canadian yesterday . . .
John,
The biblical ‘exceptions’ are just that: exceptions. It is one thing for Paul to announce his credentials to people: He was an apostle of Christ. There were numerous reasons why he should have done exactly that.
But I can think of a couple of examples too. Jesus said, ‘don’t let your right hand know what your left hand is doing.’ If this applies personally, I think it also applies generally. We should not need to brag about who we are and what we do to others. If it is done for and in Christ, that will be enough. What is done in secret will be seen by the Father is the way Jesus said it in Matthew 6.
There’s nothing wrong with having a strong sense of your calling. But to be honest with you, my credentials are not the occasions I have to announce to everyone those credentials. If I have a strong sense of calling, it will be evident by what I do. Why do we announce those credentials? Control. Intimidation. Power. To make others not dare to question what is said and done by the person claiming the credentials. I think that is a problem.
Jesus also said this: By their fruit they will be known. He didn’t say ‘by their words’ they will be known; or ‘by their announcement of credentials’ they will be known. He said, ‘by their fruit,’ which means, ‘by what they do’ will they be known. Our lives speak more about our calling than our mouths ever will.
And the bottom line is that when a person feels the need or feels compelled to throw it in someone else’s face that they have been given a special mission on earth by the Lord, I think we all do well to be not a little concerned. Many have claimed such things, and many have been very, very wrong.
jerry
(Amy)
(Jerry)
Maybe instead of making a personal judgement of whether or not I’ve read the quote and how the quote applies to me you could explain how the book of Ephesians teaches that “His instruments have no consciousness of His purpose; if they imagine they have, it is a pretty sure token that they are not his instruments.” Perhaps start with Ephesians chapter 1 and 2:1-10.
Jerry,
Also would like to know how the N.Hawthorne quote applies to Ephesians 4:11-13?
For example would it be okay if a person said, “God has called me to be a teacher?”
When does someone’s statement of their calling become “prideful” in your eyes?
Interesting that the reason Paul gives for the giving of the gifts mentioned in these verses is so that people won’t be “blown here and there by every wind of teaching.” Isn’t helping people not to be “blown about” by false teaching “defending God’s truth?”
I don’t know the context of the quote that the person above made; nor do I know why you find this person distasteful. I’m simply trying to look at the quote objectively. The description that the person gives of what he believes the Lord has called him or her to do could fit under several of the callings mentioned in verses 11 and 12: teacher, prophet, evangelist, pastor. These are gifts that people carry out through the power of the Holy Spirit. People who walk in these gifts should be “defending God’s truth,” “standing against error” and “shining His light into the darkness.”
It doesn’t have to be a show of pride to state that one is called to do these things. To state that God has called one to do these things can simply be a verbal recognition of how God Himself is working in one’s life.
Aside from any “special” calling how can a person who is filled with the Holy Spirit NOT defend His truth, stand against error, and shine His light into the darkness?
I have to admit that I’m a bit shocked at how quickly the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers is being undermined. How quickly the followers of Calvin are swimming the Tiber.
Amy,
I refuse to be drawn into this argument with you. If you cannot read the quote and accept it at face value instead of disagreeing just to disagree, then I have no further comment for you. You are quite missing the point. Read my OP again and if you don’t get it after that, then there is just no hope for you at all in this thread. Thanks for reading.
jerry
PS–I never said any one was ‘distasteful.’
Jerry,
You wrote this to Eric about the N. Hawthorne quote that you have described as “a fine quote.”
It’s not a “fine quote,” no matter what you’re attempting to say with it. If you’re implying that you got it from God (what do you mean by “providence?”) and that justifies you’re using it to support your point somehow even though the quote is unbiblical, well that’s a huge problem.
I wonder if your comment #27 to me would be the same type of answer you would give to a parishioner who questioned a “fine” but unbiblical quote that you made during a sermon. Would there be “no hope for them?” Would they be disagreeing just to disagree?
Why must you continue making judgements on me instead of showing me how the quote is biblical? Or doesn’t it matter to you whether or not the quote is biblical?
Is your making a point using an unbiblical quote somehow more important that looking at what someone (in this case, Nathaniel Hawthorne) is saying at face value and judging it by scripture?
I assume you’re talking about me Bo since your other critical points have been directed to me. Even though I realize that you’re calling me a follower of Calvin simply because that helps you put me into some category that you think you can understand and condemn. You may not have noticed that I have rarely if ever gotten into any discussions about Calvin, predestination, etc.
Ephesians is about the priesthood of all believers. I don’t know how I’m undermining that. Maybe you didn’t see part of my comment:
In other words, God calls all believers, not just those with gifts of teaching, evangelism, and pastoral, to do the above.
I never said that you said that. You don’t have to literally say something to communicate it do you? When you designate something someone has said as a “blast” and make comments like the following you’re communicating a lot of negative things. Distaste is only one way to describe it.
I think what’s being missed here too is that Paul did not receive a call that was not validated by the Holy Spirit speaking through the Church. HIs Damascus road experience was NOT a call, just a conversion.
This lone ranger–self discerned call–without affirmation from the Body is really crappy ecclesiology and even Paul was not released until the church in Antioch discerned that he, along with others, had a call.
I think that when you consider this, THEN you can see how a “self-awareness” of call could be suspect. You have to look at what else is around “the call”….
Regarding your statement number 27, Jerry. One of the statements on “How we are different” talks about defending one’s argument, not oneself.” That’s all I’m asking .
nc,
I agree with some of what you’re saying. That is, there can be folks that say they have a call who have not had it confirmed in any way, not even by God.
Here’s where I differ. First I see the things that Jerry listed as the anonymous person’s call as something that all Christians should be doing. Thus, in a general way, they should be some of the things that all Christians are called to do.
Second, I also think that someone could see doing those types of things as a special call on his or her life. A similar situation would be that we are all called to be hospitable, but there are folks who truly seem to have a special gift from God in that area
.
All I can really get from the Jerry’s article is that the person is arrogant BECAUSE he believes he has a call. And I don’t see how that is biblical.
I’m guessing that if the person had said, “God has called me to start ministries to help feed the hungry” Jerry wouldn’t have had a problem with it. So there is something more than just God’s call and a person’s acknowledgement of it going on here.
Unless some of you have communicated privately with Jerry you don’t know whether the person has a “lone ranger-self-discerned call.” I’m guessing that even Jerry doesn’t know what is behind the person’s “call.” He does not appear to be interested in looking at the circumstances of the person’s call. He does appear to be automatically dismissing the person’s call.
The reader is being “asked” to simply take Jerry’s assessment that the person who has stated that this is his call could not have this call on his life, and that the person is arrogant.
There doesn’t have to be an arrogance in a person noting God’s call in their life.
Amy,
The assumptions you make are a big reason most people don’t particularly care to engage you in any way.
There’s a difference between having a call to do something and claiming you are being used as God’s instrument. Most people I’ve met who have a genuine calling on their life seem to be pretty humbled by it. On the other hand, those who claim God is going to use them do such and such are usually pompous asses.
There are so many Scriptures that can give some definition to the original statement. Paul says we are “earthen vessels” so that the glory may be His. Even when Paul had to substantiate his apostleship he is uncomfortable, even saying “I speak as a fool”. I believe the quote suggests that the more we are self aware, the less we are Christ aware.
Paul Himself said he was unsure what awaited him in Rome, however he submitted to God’s unknown, but perfect, purposes for his life.
We must we pick apart every believers expression of humility as if it were a test on systematic theology? Listen to the author’s heart, not just dissecting the phraseology to reveal some minor doctrinal issues – according to our own subjective assessment.
The author’s point is well stated – “for me to live IS CHRIST”.
That’s easy: It doesn’t.
jerry