“Jesus wasn’t a Democrat or a Republican.”
Duh!
I get this. I don’t need to be told again…and again…and again. But here is my question:
Why do people think that just because Jesus didn’t have an American party affiliation, that I shouldn’t?
Romans 13 says that God instituted our governing authority. That means the government. Not necessarily the person. That is where America is so historically different, having few precedents set before her, because we actually have a say in who the person will be that inhabits that position. But if you truly believe that God set up the government, then shouldn’t it follow that He also expected us to use it as it was designed? That means to participate. If He has already ordained a certain person, then why did He set it up so we think we might have a say? That sounds an awful lot like Calvinism…why do anything (vote or witness) if it has already been decided? So I have coined the new term “Political Calvinism”. (if in fact it is mine to coin)
Here is the deal…
1. I have been given, as a gift from God alone, the ability and means to own a nice home.
2. I am expected to use the house to God’s glory, in the way that allows me to fulfill my God-given purpose, and invest in the house’s upkeep.
3. If I do not constantly recognize this house as a gift, if I ignore it, or don’t use it, then I am not “multiplying my talents”. (See Matthew 25:14 – 28) I must also not idolize the house or see it as anything more than a blessing from God, a means to glorify Him.
4. God has already ordained that the paint will peel and the carpet will get dirty and the design will go out of style. So why should I change that? Because it is being a good steward of the gift God has given me, so to dismiss that upkeep/maintenance as “anti-Christ” or too worldly is to spit on the blessing of a house that we have been given.
So, substitute “house” with freedom/democracy/voting/government. It is NOT anti-Christ. Not if we truly believe it was established by God. It is a blessing. It is a gift. Who else in history was able to elect their governors with the freedoms we have to follow God however we are led? No, Democracy can become an idol, just as my house can, but it is, nonetheless, a gift. One which we are able and, I believe blessed, to be able to participate in.
61 Comments(+Add)
Zan – your house doesn’t espouse different gods and say they are all the same. Our pluralistic governemnt recognizes the spiritual legitmacy of many gods and invites the worshipers of these gods to corperately govern the nation.
Your house doesn’t waste obscene amounts of money, your house doesn’t lie and promise things it cannot keep, your house doesn’t attack other houses with untruths and vitriol, people do not cry with worshipful admiration at your house, and your house doesn’t tout itself as having all the answers to everything.
All in all, I find your comparison as non-analogous. But I do appreciate your participation in posting!
…says Rick Frueh, Political Calvinist…
Chris L. – using the “C” word in any form about me makes me nautious. I hope you are happy…
I don’t know about that. I heard the Lyons have quite the house…
But Rick, you miss the point. It isn’t the authority that God set up that does those things, is it? No, it is the imperfect people that do them. Inactive Christians have allowed that by buying into the belief that all we are are Christians, not Americans. I can and am both. Christian first, but American nonetheless. If you say all those things about the authority, then you say that God established those bad things. It can’t be both.
That was exceptionally well written Zan.
Rick, metaphors don’t have to match point to point.
In actuality, Rick, every American citizen is given an authoritative role in government, and each of us would be covered as an “authority” in Romans 13.
Doing things that subvert that authority (whether it is suppression or fraud) would contradict the sentiment in Rom 13.
As such, rather than “thwarting God’s will” by “voting against his ordained”, we are exercising the authority given to us by Him – or maybe we are burying our talent in the field (or simply voting “present”) if we choose to abstain…
The Scripture commands obedience, not participation, Demoracy had not yet come through the humanistic Greeks. If you conclude that God constructs all forms of governments, well, that is fraught with problems.
How then do you read Romans 13?
Romans 13 teach submission, but I cannot translate them to mean God set up all forms of government, including human sacrifice, murderous totalitarianism, godlike emperors, abortion approved democracies, and all the rest.
If God orainded all those, then we again have quite a problem.
Huh?
Maybe you’d best go brush up on Western Civ/Greek history – the Greeks “invented” democracy about 500 years before Christ.
Whatever form of government is in place to maintain order for its citizens, if we are to believe Romans 13, is what we are to live under. Much like Israel’s call for a king, when God didn’t think they needed one, He has allowed us to have what He would not have given – such is government as we know it.
In the case of democracy, each of us has authority, as a citizen, and that authority is exercised in the act of voting – whether in a local election, a state proposition or a national presidential election. You might abdicate that, but I would suggest that such abdication is not noble, but is rather in line with burying your talent in a field. Paul claimed Roman citizenship freely, which granted him authority which he was unafraid to use. We should have no problem doing the same…
I cannot in good exegesis conscience, considering what we know about the nature of Christ, believe that Roamns 13 is a blanket statement that teaches God has set up all forms of governments and all governmental leaders. God even dealt with Herod in Acts 12, but that seems like an isolated incident.
The teaching about human governments is more nuanced than God sets them all up, and if that is what we believe, why do we murmur or work to “dethrone” the governments we do not like? Why will so many evangelicals begin immediately to work to get Obama out of office in four years if they believe God put him where he is?
Quiet submission and prayerful honor is what we are called to, but we seem to believe that though organization, information, communication, telephone trees, etc, etc, etc, we can remove who we don’t like and elect those who we do.
We cannot have it both ways, either God sets them up or we do, and if you say God uses us then who is He using, the believers who voted for Obama or McCain?
“You might abdicate that, but I would suggest that such abdication is not noble, but is rather in line with burying your talent in a field. ”
What a stretch that also includes an asuumption that participants ARE noble. I never claimed to be noble, you have suggested that particpation IS noble. I got it, my view is “un-noble” because it cannot possibly be true or Biblical.
I have seen that attitude before about many things. Mine is a perspective about which I comment, noble or not. Iron sharpening iron should be noble if the parties are engaged in the substance of the discussion and not the purity of those with whom they disagree.
About the Greeks, I meant to say Roamns wasn’t dealing specifically with democracy, in fact the context appiles to Rome.
You still equate the position with the person. They aren’t the same in my eyes. I will honor the position, and obey the authority that comes from it. I will not, however, stand by and let more innocent children die because Obama thinks it is ok. And that is my right as an American citizen under the type of government we have. See? We have been given additional freedoms by God that most men have not had. We can, legally, dissent. We can, legally, get rid of or change our leaders, and that doesn’t go against the biblical mandate to honor and follow the law given us through the government.
Zan – if God oradined democracy, He also ordained America’s choice of a baby killer. I cannot reconcile that apart from a Calvinist/fatalistic view.
Rick,
Understand that I don’t think you should necessarily participate in politics. I think it is a very personal thing between you and God. But I wanted people to understand why it isn’t wrong to participate in the political process. I also have to recognize that God has, indisputably, called certain people into the role of politics just as He has called me into Interior Design and Chris into Engineering/Human Resources. That, too is between us and God. But it is not right to blanket politics and government with a broad swath of righteous indignation and high-mindedness. Freedom in Christ is as real in politics as it is in my job, as it is in my choice of worship style.
In this case, we are not “dethroning” the government – we are not trying to overthrow the system in place. In fact, the system, itself, provides for the regular, bloodless replacement of individuals within it.
Overthrowing the government would not be working to make sure The One’s fanny is no longer at 1600 Pennsylvania avenue in 2012, but rather instigating a plot to eliminate the presidency, itself, and replace it with a military tribunal or a theocracy. I don’t hear any Christians suggesting this.
Instead, the folks who set up this system of government gave all of its people the responsibility of choosing and replacing those in power, absent bloodshed and retaining the order & structure of the system beneath it.
It may be true, but I am presenting a differing view that says, instead of taking the Calvinist/fatalistic view, a Wesleyan view (that God put the system in place, but its participants have been granted freedom of choice by their Creator) which respects the system without suggesting that God selected evil individuals who may inhabit – or flourish – within it.
Rick – that’s a sucker’s choice via the tyranny of the ‘or’. God could ordain America would be formed and that it would be a representative democracy (reading stories of its formation, it is hard not to see the hand of God’s providence) without giving His fatalistic stamp of approval to every individual who might hold power within it.
Rick,
God uses/ordains even people who do evil for his purposes – “guilty men whose own strength is their god.” See Habakkuk 1:5-11. Just one example of God using the evil to accomplish his purposes.
In the case of Israel whatever evil ruler he used to punish them was ordained to punish them because they deserved it.
And I would say that it’s just possible that God has set Obama in place because “we” as a nation have asked for it. And the consequences that follow from our – and especially Christians – bad choices will be punishment that is deserved. I don’t just mean bad choices in relation to voting for Obama, but bad choices of calling evil good to start with, including putting economic welfare over right and wrong.
And the innocent will suffer along with the guilty unless God miraculously intervenes.
(And I’m not meaning to imply here that America is now “Israel.” ) The principle of God ordaining what people deserve would apply to any nation.
A blogger buddy of mine has posted a very well-balanced treatment of the Christian’s civic responsibility when it comes to voting.
13 Propositions on Voting
I thought it might be helpful.
jerry
Zan -
As a point of clarification, Calvinism (properly understood) is not properly described as you have by saying “why do anything…if it has already been decided”. What you describe is hyper-Calvinism and reflects a sentiment often assigned to those of a Calvinist persuasion without due cause. More correctly, a Calvinist believes that God is sovereign over the ends and the means, and we are to act out of obedience. Calvinism is not fatalism. Just a point of clarification. Thanks.
When you say that God has control over the ends and the means, how can that not be fatalistic? You’re basically saying that not only does God know what’s going to happen, he’s making it happen. That, by definition, is a type of fatalism.
By the way, here’s the dictionary definition of fatalism:
That sure sounds like Calvinistic theology to me.
Daniel was a career politician, in captivity-with some of the cruelest people that ever walked the face of the earth, no?
Phil,
Just let it go. Calvinists issue fiats like: “Only the Elect can repent and choose God, the non-elect cannot by nature. God sovereignly choses to save those He elects, BUT man is still responsible” and then proceed on their merry way thinking they have effectively solved their self-induced internally illogical delimma. Just like God predetermines the beginning and end, but that’s not fatalism.
Quack, quack, waddle, waddle.
P.S. How do you spell dilemma? I slaughtered that one. oye vey.
“Daniel was a career politician, in captivity-with some of the cruelest people that ever walked the face of the earth, no?”
No.
But Joe the Plumber really inspired me. I don’t care what Spurgeon believed, but Joe the Plumber lifted me to new heights.
I watched Jesse Jackson cry while seeing Obama elected, while only a few weeks ago he was suggesting dismembering him. And if the Republicans elevate Palin as their leader, it will spell their death knell. Maybe bring back the Whig party!!
Christians participating in politics is cool by me. My thing is that it is a real failure of imagination if the Church can be seen as a voting of bloc of either party.
The fact that Christians have hearts that beat fast for culture wars means they have obscured, or even betrayed, the Gospel.
I was raised in a Republican home, but it was a home that was Rep the way Reps have been at their best: Principled fiscal/defense conservatives. Socially conservative, but not ideological, screeching and demonizing. The patrician, competent government type of elitist (sorry, it’s just the truth) that used to run the party. Think Bush 1, William F. Buckley, etc.
But I cannot, in good conscience, align myself with a party that has given its fringe a voice and power. I can’t be part of a party that has people praying at the beginning of rallies about how people are praying to “hindu” to show people that their god is greater than Jesus. (Hindu is a religion. Nice try though.)
The rhetoric of the Dobsonian imams over the last 30 years have made my ministry so much more difficult and have set me back with my gospel witness.
The answer is not to unreflectively bolt to the Dems, but Christians who call names and demonize people…even when they’re right on the issues…betray the Gospel.
Period.
Rom 13 too…does mean that you have trust God even if you think Obama is “the end of the world”…and you have to pray for him as a “minister of God”.
Plain meaning…
amen, nc. well said.
It has been interesting to hear Christians bemoan the fate of their “One” and their dashed hopes and dreams while at the same time they point fingers at the other side and say things like “look at them putting their faith in that One. How unChristian of them.”
Zan, I dont think you shouldn’t be affiliated with a party. I do think, however, that all of us who are affiliated with any political party should avoid the rhetoric that makes our party sound like God’s party. That is where the trouble starts.
Rick Freuh per #26. Are you reading the same Bible I am. The guy was in the system and those people killed people like we toss a football.
This is exactly the sort of awful rhetoric that makes this question:
relevant.
nc,
you and I agree on something! Yeah!
“But I cannot, in good conscience, align myself with a party that has given its fringe a voice and power. ” And I would say the same thing about the Dems, as I see Pelosi, Reid, Frank, Kennedy, et al., continually hailed as leaders of the party. They are further from my moral beliefs than the fringe on the right, so I must go right. I TOTALLY agree with you about Dobson (one of the reasons I didn’t vote for Huckabee!), Chris can verify that for ya! But each party has those fringe people that must be accepted. Dobson is less objectionable to me than the above-mentioned Dems.
What do you have against Reid? He may be a lot of things, but immoral certainly isn’t one of them.
I didn’t say they were all immoral (at least Reid…the others I wouldn’t be too sure) but his leadership role in the Dem party, tendency toward a filter-failure of the mouth (Biden’s brother?), opposition to the surge, and his less-than-kind (and inappropriate for a Senate leader) comments about Bush, Petraeus, Clarence Thomas and others. He may be fairly strict on Abortion and against gay marriage, but he is becoming increasingly linked in mind and action with Pelosi.
Joe – Daniel was carried away to Babylon as a slave and probably chosen to serve the king regardless of his will. I hardly would call that a “career politician”, and in fact, Daniel abstained from certain things so as not to defile himself.
Your verbiage and comparison of Daniel’s situation to Christians voluntarily participating in the democratic process is incongruous, and the phrase “career politician” is nonapplicable. I believe a better description would be a “career prophet”.
I would have to see which Bible you read to answer your question.
“He may be fairly strict on Abortion and against gay marriage, but he is becoming increasingly linked in mind and action with Pelosi.”
Reid is a Jew who converted to Mormonism. He is another example of being unequally yoked with unbelievers on moral (abortion) issues. The power struggles, lobby interests, re-election tactics, immorality, bribes, self interests, and just the teeming influence of fallen power usually renders the congress as a spectacle of ineffectivenes which is subsidized by our tax dollars.
The entire system is an ox in a ditch and doesn’t come close to serving those who sent them. It also engenders a sort of “favorite team” spirit among the electorate which cannot serve two masters, it loves the one and hate s the other. Quite amusing and sad simultaneously.
I have again read over Romans 13 and I believe it must be a general teaching against anarchy and a admonition for submission and humility. It cannot mean that God actually chose every leader in every country since Adam and Eve and that He also created every form of government specifically.
As a matter of fact, God never wanted Israel to have a king like the other countries, but gave them Saul because of their carnal desires to be like the heathen nations. That is the first time that a form of democracy (we want our way) was given by God, but it is clear it wasn’t what God desired.
Rick,
That last line was funny.
However this phrase
goes to my point, namely he didn’t abstain from the political process. He stayed involved, when he could have checked out on moral grounds and just paid the price.
isn’t that what I said earlier? (But a lot less clearer?)
Phil,
If you care to understand where I am coming from, please read the page at http://www.bloomingtonrpchurch.org/refdocpre/15.htm (not my writing or church, but a good short summation of the difference). Calvinists do not despair of the future and say “why do anything” as stated by Zan. I stand by my point of clarification.
John,
As with many others here, the tone of your admonition to Phil belies your disdain for other Christians of a differing theological belief. Very gracious indeed. Like it or not, Calvinism is Biblical. The Bible is replete with examples of God controlling and directing every facet of history.
I’m don’t intend to turn this into a change of topic and drawn out discussion of Calvinsm. But, just like people here don’t like emergent belief or other beliefs to be misrepresented, it only seems fair that Calvinism also not be misrepresented. So, as with my original point before Phil started quoting dictionary.com, Calvinists do not despair, throw up their hands, and withdraw. As I noted, there is a name for that: hyper-Calvinism.
Wow, Zan!!! Yay!!
I would say though that the positions you outlined about Reid don’t make him “fringe” they make him to be in disagreement with some other good people about how to handle things like the Iraq war, etc.
that’s all.
It’s not fringe to be pro-life.
It’s not fringe to be pro-choice.
Those are disagreements.
It IS fringe to talk about defeating Obama in terms that make it sound like those you disagree with are the tools of Satan…OR vice versa.
Lastly for me,
I don’t get as offended by Pelosi, etc. because they’ve never claimed the moralistic highground that Dobson does.
They can get nasty, but they don’t say Jesus told me to be nasty, or basically communicate that being angry for God is the best way to be faithful when dealing with lost people, or folks that you have to live with in this country that never will share your religious beliefs.
Christians–and people whose sole source of public identity is as “ministry”–have a higher standard.
I don’t know about that any more. I think those on the left can be just as condescending as those on the right. I would say in recent years, it’s even gotten worse.
Can’t we just agree that they’re all a bunch of asshats?
Eric: Well, while I agree my “tone” is sarcastic I certainly would not say I have an attitude of distain. In fact my library shelves are full of the writings of Calvinists divines of old. Although you appear to be a somwhat balanced and charitable Calvanist ,I certainly must say the charge of “distain” is the classic pot calling the kettle black as the moderate Calvinists with whom I have
been lectured down tohad discourse with are the ones who have complete and utter distain for any other biblical world view and who equate Calvinism as being co-equal with the Scripture.So, sarcasm = guilty.
Distain = no.
Nor does it prohibit participation. No problem.
I know that God is not supposed to be neither a Democrat or a Republican, but you wouldn’t know it by listening to VCY America.
A week or so ago, Vic posed this question to the listening audience, and I’m paraphrasing somewhat, “What do you think God’s ramifications will be if a Democrat (Obama) gets elected?”
Never mind the pros and cons of the individual presidential candidates, it seems a giant leap of logic, or wishful thinking on Vic’s part, that he knows how God would vote. If I was God, I’d be rather annoyed at the presumption on Vic’s part.
Along those same lines, Janet Folger Porter held a daily mass prayer phonefest. If McCain had won, would Janet have declared that God answers prayers, since that seemed to have been the purpose of the prayerorama. OK, so McCain didn’t win, are we then to draw the conclusion that either God doesn’t answer prayers, or that maybe He’s an Obama supporter, or just maybe these things turn out the way they turn out, and its as simple as that.
Here are the choices:
1. He will destroy America
2. He will demand a recount
3. He will kill all Democrats
4. He has bigger fish to fry
5. He will continue to speak to HIS people about THEIR condition
VCY is in the pocket of Republicans. You cannot serve two masters, and even speaking politically on a Christian station compromises the gospel and is counter-productive to the preaching of the cross.
The focus on and the criticizing of the fallen human condition, not to mention joining with unbelievers to combat the effects of that condition through organizations, are profound misrepresentations of God’s gospel of redemption.
.
That’s ummm, interesting.
I expect Obama will not be good for America, but very well may be good for the Church.
Neil
Neil-
What do you mean by that? I am more interested to hear your thoughts on the latter part of your statement – about the church.
As for America, I would say it can’t be any worse than the last 8 years. I am hopeful that our international standing will greatly improve, however. I am also hopeful that more people will have health care that before could never get it.
Be careful the challenges withwhich you temp fate…I don;t think the past eight, or twenty-eight for that matter, have been bad at all.
When I say “Church” I mean that biblically and theologically. The Church as the global body of all those who are joined with God through Jesus Christ.
With that in mind I do not think an Obama Presidency will be a bad thing for the Church. I have heard from more than a few (American) missionaries overseas of the increased difficulties they have encountered since the launch of the war in Iraq. Though it is not, many Arabs, Muslims, and others perceive this as a war of the Christian West against the None-Christian East. Some poorly chosen words by President Bush in the early days of the war only exacerbated this perception. President Obama may be beneficial in relieving some of this perception.
In fact, since perception is so powerful (e.g. price of gasoline) the fact that America is willing to elect a President of color, who has been accused of being a crypto-Muslim, and bears an Arab middle name – this fact may become a benefit for those sharing the Gospel in other nations.
VCY…ai yi yi…
In light of Rom. 13 I think we have to just admit that God, in God’s wisdom, has ordained that Obama be president. Some of us may not like it or understand it. It may not make “sense”, but this is an opportunity for Christians to really re-think how it is they have used their voice within this culture.
If all it becomes is a way to re-double our efforts for a Republican “come back” then we’ve missed what I believe is a clear rebuke to evangelicals who may not like Dobson, et. al. but won’t go to town and throw the bums off the proverbial pedestal.
Judgement begins in the house of God.
I voted for Obama.
Not because I think he’s perfect or I agree with every policy.
I voted for the man because I hate the arrogance of the church, how we wrap our cookies in barbed wire, and how we mindlessly supported W because we sinfully demonized Bill Clinton and went on what sounded to a lot of outsiders like a self-righteous jihad.
My vote was to rebuke evangelicals. Now they have the opportunity to put their money where their mouths are theologically and hermeneutically.
If you aren’t genuinely praying for Obama, if you’re seething over his victory, then you’ve betrayed the Gospel and your theology sucks. It reveals that you materially really don’t trust God even if you formally claim to do so.
The kingdom of God was not on the ballot…and it never will be. So all this doom and gloom is really just immature.
Sour grapes and gloating are low class, unchristlike and a waste of time.
You can have your convictions, work to unseat the man in 2012, but this churning in the stomach that I see from some folks really reveals alot. and, no, it’s not revealing your commitment to righteousness.
That VCY drives me nuts.
Neil,
You’re a pretty fair-minded guy. Not that you’re “pretty”, but that you seem really…
oh, nevermind.
that just sounds weird.
you’re a good guy.
bye.
nc- that was perfect. I am applauding silently in my Black Intellectuals in America class
Neil-
regarding the church I think you are on to something and pray that is the case.
I was listening to Savage last night and he thought he had a brilliant thought – he thought he had the secret for how Obama could unite all of America behind him and give himself a 95% approval rating. The answer? Bomb Iran’s nuclear facilities the day after he takes office.
I screamed out loud in my car.
What Savage doesn’t get is that the rest of the world hates us precisely because we act like the bully in the classroom and have so for the last 8 years. Such an action would no doubt destroy yours and mine hopes for the church in the world.
Thanks.
There are two things I dislike 1) the Socialist, class-envy, behavior-manipulating, acheivement-punishing, inflation-causing wealth redistribution proposed by liberal like Obama. 2) and opposing the same in the name of God, or using the Bible, etc…
The latter is worse than the former – though I loathe both.
As I say on my facebook page – I’m religious, I’m right, but I am NOT Religious-Right.
Neil
I am sure I did not vote for the guy God din’t want to be elected. “lol”
Neil,
I’d add a third thing to your list:
the Consumer capitalist, class-envy, behvior manipulating, non-conformity punishing, voodoo economics trickle down greed scheme unreflectively supported so long as its proponents fight abortion.
After delving into the issues, researching the candidates and finding I could overlook certain glaring faults like Obama’s support for abortion, I ending up considering overall the good outweighed the bad, and after much introspection and prayer I voted for Obama .I voted for the man because I hate the arrogance of the church, My vote was to rebuke evangelicals – ncI thought I felt a sharp stinging sensation on my cheek last Tuesday.