I saw this post over at SoL today, and I have to point it out, because it’s one of the rare times I actually agree with something on an ADM site.  The post is simply a quote from A.W. Tozer, and it’s about resentment.  Here’s an excerpt:

In the course of scores of conferences and hundreds of conversations I have many times heard people say, “I resent that.” But I repeat: I have never heard the words used by a victorious man. Resentment simply cannot dwell in a loving heart. Before resentfulness can enter, love must take its flight and bitterness take over. The bitter soul will compile a list of slights at which it takes offense and will watch over itself like a mother bear over her cubs. And the figure is apt, for the resentful heart is always surly and suspicious like a she-bear.

Amen!  I whole-heartily agree.  Resentment is a trap that the enemy sets for us, and if we spend our time worrying about defending our rights, I believe we are missing the point of being a Christ-follower to large extent.

But then I compare this post to many of the other ones on SoL, and I scratch my head.  It seems to me that the majority of the site is built on resentment and/or taking offense.  Just take a look at some the recent posts (here, here, and here) for example.  Those are all from the current front page.   I could easily point out dozens of others if wanted to.

So I guess it’s just another example of what happens when we say one thing and do another.  It’s one thing to say we need to be careful of living with resentment, but it’s quite another to live it.

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This entry was posted on Tuesday, November 18th, 2008 at 11:01 am and is filed under Christian Living, Church and Society, Hypocrisy, ODM Responses. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
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103 Comments(+Add)

1   nc    
November 18th, 2008 at 11:27 am

oh no, Phil…

you just forgot their Ordnung (the unspoken/unwritten set of expectations that the Amish have).

It clearly means that no criticism applies to them.

So…the best you can deduce from the post is that it’s some passive-aggressive pointer at one or all of their “enemies” that they hate to the glory of God.

It couldn’t possibly apply to them.

2   nc    
November 18th, 2008 at 11:31 am

I really love the last link you posted.

The kids weren’t just dancing (gasp! leads to sex, ya know!) and dancing to secular music.

They were dancing to altered classics

perversion! Ichabod! I can hear the hiss and smell the sulphur!

3   Brendt Waters    http://www.csaproductions.com/blog/
November 18th, 2008 at 12:21 pm

Amputating one’s olfactory sensing appendage to aggravate one’s physiognomy.

4   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
November 18th, 2008 at 12:34 pm

I am attempting to find the differenece between linking to spurious articles about others and claiming innocence, and becoming resentful over other bloggers who print things that you say are not true about you. I am trying to remember the word that describes that inconsistency -

I think it begins with an “H”.

5   Chris P.    
November 18th, 2008 at 12:44 pm

Nice job of skewing the meaning of words, and the intent of blog posts. Then again this is what you are truly good at.

nc is an idiot. Does that offend you?
BTW if nc accuses me of being the Holy Spirit again, I will have to assume that he has never had an encounter with Him and is need of prayer for salvation.

As for amputating appendages……
Paul has something to say about that; but then again, emasculation is obviously the problem here.

6   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
November 18th, 2008 at 3:44 pm

Rick,

Is it ‘helpful’?

7   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
November 18th, 2008 at 3:59 pm

The things that are “helpful” are an endangered species.

8   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
November 18th, 2008 at 5:14 pm

I’m sorry, but I just do not agree Phil.

Resentment is not found in those articles. Personal opinion? Yep.

If I take offense in the name of Christ, but then I forgive a person, is that resentment? If I point something out that is wrong in our culture, is that resentment?

Resentment requires harboring ill will at an offense taken. I hold no ill will for Rob Bell, Brian McClaren, Tony Jones, or Doug Pagitt. I am not the One (not talking about Obama here) offended. Disagreement is not resentment; resentment requires harboring bitterness, or holding onto an offense.

Now, if you want an example of bitterness, point to Richard Abanes vs. Ken Silva. Commenting on the church that has sex dances, sex challenges, or a commentator on an article is not resentment. Holding a grudge about an article and threatening legal action? That would be more like resentment.

9   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
November 18th, 2008 at 5:25 pm

Resentment is not found in those articles. Personal opinion? Yep.

I can’t judge everyone’s motivations perfectly, but from my perspective a lot of what the ADMs write is based in resentment. They resent the fact that authors they don’t like sell a lot of books. They resent the fact that young, “cool” pastors are trying to take over their churches. And they resent the fact that people quit listening to them a long time ago.

I’ve not met any the people who write these blogs personally, but based on their writings, I don’t know that I’d want to. Personally they seem like very bitter and unhappy people to me.

10   corey    http://learning-to-listen.blogspot.com
November 18th, 2008 at 5:57 pm

My favorite line was this one:

“Few sights are more depressing than that of a professed Christian defending his supposed rights and bitterly resisting any attempt to violate them.”

11   corey    http://learning-to-listen.blogspot.com
November 18th, 2008 at 5:59 pm

When several posts down, this line occurs:

“Our Rights as Individuals and as Christians Are Eroding Quickly .”

12   nc    
November 18th, 2008 at 7:39 pm

Chris P,

Tsk, tsk…

Offended? Not at all…by your fruit I know you…you’re angry to the glory of god.

It’s your problem. Really.

btw, how long has it been since I called you the Holy Spirit?

A long time, dude. And guess what? When you start making declarations the way you did, then you do arrogate to yourself the role of the Holy Spirit. But I get it, the truth that ought rebuke you is out of bounds.

I mean seriously, are things sticking in your craw?

Could it be…

resentment?

But there you go again, making pronouncements that add to the Gospel and my standing before Christ– adding to the Scriptures that you claim to have the corner on loving and understanding.

Must be hard to be so confused, Chris P. You can’t decide if you’re purpose-driven or have a deep yearning to be member of the magisterium, what with all your grand statements about people’s condition before the Lord.

13   nc    
November 18th, 2008 at 7:47 pm

Bottom line,

If you try to act like the Holy Spirit, then, guess what?

You’re acting like you’re the Holy Spirit.

Instead of being angry at the truth, use this opportunity as an invitation to your continued spiritual growth.

14   nc    
November 18th, 2008 at 7:50 pm

RE: Instead of being angry at the truth, use this opportunity as an invitation to your continued spiritual growth.

And you say we’re emasculated?

Why not turn that cold, hard stare at yourself, Chris P.
You might find more missing than you fear…

dude.
sheeeesh.

I’m seriously laughing right now at extent of your ridiculousness.

15   Joe    http://joemartino.name
November 18th, 2008 at 9:11 pm

Chris P,
I’ve looked up some anger management counselors out there where you live. Email me and I’ll send you the list. I’m even willing to write a letter of recommendation for you.

16   Bo Diaz    
November 18th, 2008 at 9:19 pm

Resentment is not found in those articles.

I realize you’re used to lying, but now you’re just lying to yourself.

17   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
November 18th, 2008 at 9:25 pm

re·sent·ment

: a feeling of indignant displeasure or persistent ill will at something regarded as a wrong, insult, or injury

hmmm…

Maybe the resentment is yours.

18   Bo Diaz    
November 18th, 2008 at 9:38 pm

I should hope Christ Followers would have a feeling of indignant displeasure at the wrongs you’ve perpetrated.

19   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
November 18th, 2008 at 9:42 pm

It depends on which christ you are following…

Mayetreya?

20   Bo Diaz    
November 18th, 2008 at 9:46 pm

SO you believe there’s more than one messiah?

Universalist.

21   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
November 18th, 2008 at 10:33 pm

“nc is an idiot. Does that offend you?”

No, but I do resent it.

Corey – You get an “B” for pointing out an open contradiction. I would give you an “A” but it is too easy to find them.

nc is NOT an idiot. He’s a piece of crap. :lol:

22   nc    
November 18th, 2008 at 10:38 pm

Rick!

=)

too funny!!!!

23   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
November 18th, 2008 at 10:39 pm

Here is another pity party at SoL.

http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/abominations/homosexual-mob-threatens-to-kill-christian-worshipers/

We as believers get to be persecuted and complain about it as well! I sort of remember Someone getting spit on and beaten and saying “Father forgive them…”. But remember, Christianity is doctrine not emulating Christ.

Posted by the Black Letter Christians.

24   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
November 18th, 2008 at 11:10 pm

As for amputating appendages……
Paul has something to say about that; but then again, emasculation is obviously the problem here.

Chris P, I am sorry to hear this about yourself. Was it painful? To me it explains so much about you.

Sorry, it was just tooo tempting… now back to lurking.

iggy

25   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
November 19th, 2008 at 9:21 am

re·sent·ment

: a feeling of indignant displeasure or persistent ill will at something regarded as a wrong, insult, or injury

And this describes probably upwards of 90% of the posts at SoL and its clones. They are constantly complaining about their rights being violated, and they are pretty much live with persistent ill will towards whomever they label emergent, seeker-sensitive, man-centered, etc. They just like to pretend their anger is righteous and therefore justified.

26   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
November 19th, 2008 at 10:19 am

Speaking for myself, having been labeled as an ODM, I do not feel resentment towards those people, just a level of disagreement with their stands. This is more a defense of scripture and orthodoxy than it is personal affront. I would not ascribe motives to other ODM’s; I do not speak for them. But I would also recommend before you look at others that the authors on their sites might look in the mirror and ask if their OP’s glorify God, or is it a flesh filled exercise.

27   nc    
November 19th, 2008 at 10:29 am

PB,

if it’s just “disagreement” then why not make sure you eschew any rhetoric that would question their faithfulness, their motives, etc. etc.

It seems that while you may not go on and on with a Silva style jargon, you still take up a stance that communicates resentment.

Why not communicate more like Rick? He disagrees, but it is always about the issues and never the persons/motives, etc.

28   nc    
November 19th, 2008 at 10:31 am

Hmmmm….

Chris P is strangely silent.

thank God.

and I do mean God and not Chris P.

Just to be clear.

29   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
November 19th, 2008 at 10:59 am

#27 NC

When I grow up, I would like to be like Rick, but right now I am just me. :)

30   nc    
November 19th, 2008 at 11:25 am

PB,

you’re funny.
really.

sometimes…you make me laugh in a good way.

btw,
have a great day today!

31   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
November 19th, 2008 at 12:01 pm

# 30,

Funny, like clown funny? I am here to amuse you?
:)

32   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
November 19th, 2008 at 12:02 pm

(name that movie character)

33   nc    
November 19th, 2008 at 1:24 pm

Joe Pesci’s character in Good Fellas…

nice.

PB,

you continue to surprise…

34   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
November 19th, 2008 at 1:38 pm

I love the smell of napalm on a blog.

35   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
November 19th, 2008 at 2:39 pm

Apocalypse Now.

36   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
November 19th, 2008 at 3:02 pm

“You will not turn me as you did my father.”

37   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
November 19th, 2008 at 3:11 pm

Luke Skywalker
Star Wars 6 Return of the Jedi

38   nc    
November 19th, 2008 at 3:43 pm

“That’s A-ma-zing”.

39   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
November 19th, 2008 at 3:47 pm

Resentment…..“You keep using that word… I do not think it means what you think it means.”

40   nc    
November 19th, 2008 at 3:52 pm

ah…princess bride…

41   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
November 19th, 2008 at 3:56 pm

Inigo Montoya…you killed my father, prepare to die

42   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
November 19th, 2008 at 4:59 pm

You’re gonna need a bigger blog…

43   John Hughes    
November 20th, 2008 at 9:25 am

Let’s get back to the coreography routines to secular dance tunes at a worship service. And again I will come back to: “cannot we dedicate one hour a week to a corporate worship of God?” The answer is obviously not. Thou shalt entertain has become the 11th commandment.

Now for balance we should remember that this “event” happened in a community. It involved people’s daughters, sisters and friends. It’s talent night at home so to speak. Nothing ontologically wrong with that. If this was talent night or a get together what’s the harm? But if this was a worship service then I just don’t get it. This is a core problem with the seeker friendly/church growth movement which sees religion as something to be marketed. Which sees entertainment as central to drawing and keeping people and which, in the final analysis, is manward (entertainment) and not Godward which, by definition, cannot be defined as worship.

44   Nathanael    http://borrowedbreath.com/
November 20th, 2008 at 9:41 am

John,
Please remember that the quote was an email of one person’s opinion of the dancing.

A few years ago, I would have “amened” this brother’s assertion, believing that dancing has no place in the weekly church service. However, in the past few years, I’ve watched various children of the King celebrate and praise Him in a manner that I believe pleased Him, even though it was not my “cup of tea.” And I’ve had to change my opinion.

Worship, when directed to the Creator of it and to the One who is worthy of it, takes on different shapes. I have been moved to tears by several liturgical dance numbers. I believe our Father looked into the hearts of those who were offering these praises (something I cannot do) and saw His children reveling in His love. And as I said, I believe He was well pleased.

If I were already bent to criticism, my take on the event could have looked like “teens (mostly girls) dancing to secular pop tunes and altered classics by modern leaders…”

But that’s one man’s opinion of the event.

Just my two copper coins.
Shalom

45   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
November 20th, 2008 at 9:43 am

Let’s get back to the coreography routines to secular dance tunes at a worship service. And again I will come back to: “cannot we dedicate one hour a week to a corporate worship of God?” The answer is obviously not. Thou shalt entertain has become the 11th commandment.

I guess I even doubt the veracity of that story. I don’t doubt that there was some sort of choreography routine in a service, but I wonder what the secular song was, especially since no name is given.

The fact the person complained about singing “altered classics” by Matt Redman and Chris Tomlin makes me think he/she just has a stick up his/her butt. Tomlin’s and Redman’s arrangements of hymns are quite good, and they’re probably actually responsible for re-introducing some of the older hymns back into church worship music vocabulary.

I guess to me it becomes an exercise equivalent to “the boy who cried wolf”. Because these people spend so much time and energy complaining about petty things even to the point of being dishonest, it’s hard to take them serious when they complain about something that might have some merit.

46   Nathanael    http://borrowedbreath.com/
November 20th, 2008 at 9:45 am

P.S.
John,
In reply to your call for “corporate worship” which is legitimate, I was able to worship my King in response to those who were dancing in praise to Him. So in that sense, we were worshipping together, even though some were dancing and some were sitting.

47   John Hughes    
November 20th, 2008 at 12:33 pm

Nathanal,

I have no problem with LITURGICAL dancing. I myself have “congoed ” around the auditorium in a communal liturgical dance before the lord.

It’s the dance routine to “secular” music that’s the rub.

48   John Hughes    
November 20th, 2008 at 12:36 pm

Phil: If the story is a lie then this discussion is pointless and my comments are unnecessary.

Also, I agree with your observation that it’s ludicrous to hold any style as a “classic” which cannot be modified to suit each generation.

And finally why does everyone always assume the problem is with contemporary music? That is not my concern at all. I was leading contemporary worship when a lot of you guys were still puppies.

49   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
November 20th, 2008 at 12:39 pm

I love to do a praise dance to John Lennon’s “Imagine”. People seem really blessed. :cool:

50   Nathanael    http://borrowedbreath.com/
November 20th, 2008 at 12:42 pm

People seem really blessed

Perceptions can be deceiving, brother.

51   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
November 20th, 2008 at 12:46 pm

It’s the dance routine to “secular” music that’s the rub.

And I guess I would have an issue to someone performing to “Vogue” or something, but unless the actual song is named, I will withhold judgment. There are a lot of songs that are kind of on a line that’s between sacred and secular, so I’d be interested to know what the actual piece was.

Truth-telling isn’t one of the ADM’s strong points, so I’m not that quick to believe something just because they say it.

52   Nathanael    http://borrowedbreath.com/
November 20th, 2008 at 12:55 pm

There are some “secular” songs out there that are incredible pieces of worship to the Creator.
“Imagine” is NOT one of them, IMHO, even though it is one of the best melodies out there.

53   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
November 20th, 2008 at 12:57 pm

“Truth-telling isn’t one of the ADM’s strong points”

But Phil, it’s not their fault. They are only passing on what they read – constantly. Here are two issues to weigh:

1. People are dancing to secular songs (I’m against it)

2. 6000 people will die in Africa today from AIDS who need Jesus.

Now which issue is foremost in God’s view? Does the phrase “straining at a gnat” mean anything? BTW – I am sitting in a air conditioned room in a comfortable chair with a nice computer and a swimming pool in my back yard while those people die.

But people are dancing to secular music. Oh the horror…

54   John Hughes    
November 20th, 2008 at 1:32 pm

Rick: “But people are dancing to secular music — in a “worship” service

Yes, horrific, IMO. And not straining at a gnat, but you do have a valid point.

Worship and service don’t have to be an either/or proposition BTW.

Is it true that NC is your pool boy?

55   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
November 20th, 2008 at 1:39 pm

If you are against dancing to secular songs in a worship service – don’t do it. I guess my overall point is that all the ODMs NEVER post about their own sins and shortcomings, if they had any.

SoL uses the phrase “homosexual jackboot crowd” in a recent post and on crosstalk they will be picking apart Obama because “you need to know”. It is so easy to shoot from the vantage point of “higher ground”. They want to cleanse the Temple like Jesus but they don’t desire to consort with whores like Jesus, as well as live a life of poverty.

I call it the “Jesus smorgasbord” – take what you like and leave the rest!

56   Pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
November 20th, 2008 at 2:16 pm

I

love to do a praise dance to John Lennon’s “Imagine”. People seem really blessed.

When they are wretching and twitching on the floor, that is called being sick, not being blessed. :)

57   John Hughes    
November 20th, 2008 at 3:14 pm

Rick: If you are against dancing to secular songs in a worship service – don’t do it.

Yes, but they talked me into a pair of sequined gloves and I can’t take them back, so I’m stuck.

Are there more pressing issues? Yes, of course. Is it a non-issue? No. Becuase it is a visible manifestation of a larger problem.

They want to cleanse the Temple like Jesus but they don’t desire to consort with whores like Jesus, as well as live a life of poverty.

Point taken and agreed.

58   John Hughes    
November 20th, 2008 at 3:15 pm

BTW: what’s a “jackboot?” We have jack rabbits and jack-a-lopes here in Texas.

59   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
November 20th, 2008 at 3:42 pm

Jackboot is a nazi reference. Real Christian, would you agree? :roll:

60   nc    
November 20th, 2008 at 5:40 pm

Pool boy?

Really?

Pool.

boy.

61   john b    
November 21st, 2008 at 2:25 am

I think too many sometimes treat “worship” as a Sunday morning “service” kind of thing. Our life should be continual worship to our creator and we don’t need Ken and Ingrid to tell us how to run our “worship” whether it be on Sunday morning or any other time.

62   john b    
November 21st, 2008 at 2:30 am

SoL uses the phrase “homosexual jackboot crowd” in a recent post and on crosstalk they will be picking apart Obama because “you need to know”.

It’s interesting how Brannon Howse knows so much about this “youth army” since no one has ever elaborated in it. But please, do scare and hyperventilate the naive.

The SoL. Too much ______!

(fill in the blank) LOL

63   John Hughes    
November 21st, 2008 at 9:30 am

John B: I think too many sometimes treat “worship” as a Sunday morning “service” kind of thing. Our life should be continual worship to our creator and we don’t need Ken and Ingrid to tell us how to run our “worship” whether it be on Sunday morning or any other time.

“Can we not set aside one hour each week to worship God in a corporate setting?” And again the answer is “no we cannot”.

64   john b    
November 21st, 2008 at 12:05 pm

“Can we not set aside one hour each week to worship God in a corporate setting?” And again the answer is “no we cannot”.

Respectfully John, I am for much more than one hour a week with corporate worship. But what YOU consider worship is not necessarily the end all to worship. Worship takes various forms and I believe God takes delight in the worship of His children in those various forms. Of course that gets into intentions and motivations which can only be a matter of the heart.

Worship styles and actions are decisions best made by the leadership of the local church…..not Ken and Ingrid.

65   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
November 21st, 2008 at 12:25 pm

“Can we not set aside one hour each week to worship God in a corporate setting?” And again the answer is “no we cannot”.

I don’t understand how you’re making this charge, really. Having someone do a solo song or performance doesn’t mean you still can’t have a big chunk of corporate worship songs. Is there some rule that the service has to be an hour long?

Now, I’ll admit, that there have been a few solos during church services that made me cringe, and I question the wisdom of some of them, but I don’t want to go to the extreme of saying a church service has to be a certain way.

66   Pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
November 21st, 2008 at 12:38 pm

worship…I do not think that word means what you think it means.

The philosopher Basho once said a donut with no hole is a danish.

A worship service that does not glorify God, exalting his name above all other names is not a worship service, it is man-made entertainment. I can get that everywhere else; the church should be a unique institution.

67   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
November 21st, 2008 at 12:55 pm

A worship service that does not glorify God, exalting his name above all other names is not a worship service, it is man-made entertainment. I can get that everywhere else; the church should be a unique institution.

And again, who is denying that a worship service is about glorifying God? Who says that singing hymns and choruses is the only way that God can be glorified in a corporate setting?

As far as the church being a “unique institution”, I would say it’s not an institution at all. It the collection of all believers on earth. The local congregation of believers has a lot of freedom to decide they will and will not do during a weekly gathering.

68   John Hughes    
November 21st, 2008 at 2:11 pm

Phil, when did I say anything about solos or styles of music? I am solely addressing secular songs being used within corporate worship for entertainment purposes. I will concede there might be times when it is appropriate to use secular songs as an illustration and to make a spiritual point, but to use secular songs to “get the crowd going”, show off the band’s talent, or to just entertain is the rub. If something is not Godward in a worship service, it, by definition cannot be described as worship, and to me, if a church produces a constant diet of this, it is indicative of an underlying problem.

69   John Hughes    
November 21st, 2008 at 2:14 pm

Phil: The local congregation of believers has a lot of freedom to decide they will and will not do during a weekly gathering.

Most local congregation has total freedom to decide what they will do during a weekly gathering. That does not make it biblical.

70   John Hughes    
November 21st, 2008 at 2:15 pm

Phil: Is there some rule that the service has to be an hour long?

Phil. I’m asking for JUST an hour. It’s obvious many churches can’t give their attention to God for even 60 minutes a week.

71   John Hughes    
November 21st, 2008 at 2:27 pm

JohnB: But what YOU consider worship is not necessarily the end all to worship.

I agree John. But words have meaning and worship means to ascribe worth to a deity, so technically you cannot have a worship service if said deity is not being ascribed worth to in some form or fashion. Entertainment of mortals cannot be defined as worship of a diety just because it takes place in a time designated for worship of that diety. In fact it should be considered profane in the strict sense of the definition. If I walked into a Buddhist religious ceremony and the monks were singing and dancing to Booty Call I would think them insane. If I walked into an Islamic ceremony and the Imam was belting out I Heard It Through the Grapevine . . . well I guess he would be dead very shortly, so bad illustration, never mind.

Worship takes various forms and I believe God takes delight in the worship of His children in those various forms. Of course that gets into intentions and motivations which can only be a matter of the heart.

I agree, but refer you back to the definition of worship. At the minimum at least the thoughts have to be directed Godward and how you can reconcile that to dance routines to secular songs is beyond me.

Worship styles and actions are decisions best made by the leadership of the local church…..not Ken and Ingrid.

I totally agree. (Ingrid would definately not like my selection for worship songs by the way.)

72   Nathanael    http://borrowedbreath.com/
November 21st, 2008 at 2:38 pm

John,
You keep harping on this “secular song.”

At the minimum at least the thoughts have to be directed Godward and how you can reconcile that to dance routines to secular songs is beyond me.

We are taking the word of a man who was clearly critical of the whole service. The tone of the email, in my opinion, was bitter.

We don’t know what song was danced to.

There are some instrumental songs and other songs that are not “Bootie Call” or “Imagine” that are not anti-christ in and of themselves. In fact, the songs, inspired by the Creator of all things, are beautiful and soul-enriching.

Who calls what songs secular and “Christian.” There is some Christian music out there that quite frankly stinks. It is not original. It is predictable. But because CCM has put their stamp on it, and because they use the name Jesus, it’s okay to dance to it?

I worship in my car listening to the new Coldplay cd. Is it a Christian cd? No. Is it secular? I don’t know. But I know that they are some crazy-talented musicians and song-writers. It is art. And it makes me praise my God for the gift He has given that band.

73   Nathanael    http://borrowedbreath.com/
November 21st, 2008 at 2:40 pm

By the way, I hardly ever listen to Christian radio anymore.
I have a few artists I like, Derek Webb, Caedmon’s, Shane and Shane, Hillsong United…

I listen to them and NPR.

And Coldplay.

74   John Hughes    
November 21st, 2008 at 2:52 pm

I worship in my car listening to the new Coldplay cd. Is it a Christian cd? No. Is it secular? I don’t know. But I know that they are some crazy-talented musicians and song-writers. It is art. And it makes me praise my God for the gift He has given that band.

Nathanael, good for you! (Sincerely). I too have often listened to secular musicians and have been moved to praise God for how fearfully and wonderfully He has made us.

But I will point out two things (1) You were worshipping in private and not during a corporate time supposidely dedicated to the worship of God. (2) Who would a non-Christian give glory to for Coldplay’s talent? You have a Christian world view and recognize God as the ultimate source of all gifts and talents. You give glory to God because you are **aware**.

75   John Hughes    
November 21st, 2008 at 2:53 pm

John: You keep **harping**.

Pun intended?

76   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
November 21st, 2008 at 2:53 pm

I agree, but refer you back to the definition of worship. At the minimum at least the thoughts have to be directed Godward and how you can reconcile that to dance routines to secular songs is beyond me.

I don’t know, I’ve had God whisper things to my spirit while listening to “secular” music plenty of times. If a song contains truth or beauty, it’s only because created that truth and beauty.

77   Nathanael    http://borrowedbreath.com/
November 21st, 2008 at 2:56 pm

No pun intended, John.
I’m just that good…and humble.

I still hold to the fact that we have no idea what song was danced to.
We’re basing this whole thing on one man’s take on the event.

78   John Hughes    
November 21st, 2008 at 3:01 pm

Who calls what songs secular and “Christian.”

This is not rocket science. Songs that address a deity, his or her attributes, works, actions, followers, etc. are sacred songs. Anything else is secular. Gray areas? Of course, but style, quality, etc., have nothing to do with the definition.

There is nothing wrong with many, many secular songs although some are ontologically evil.

Instrumentals are another issue. I’m open to your thoughts (and can be bribed). :-)

79   John Hughes    
November 21st, 2008 at 3:02 pm

I still hold to the fact that we have no idea what song was danced to.
We’re basing this whole thing on one man’s take on the event.

I agree. But sadly, this is not an isolated incident.

80   Nathanael    http://borrowedbreath.com/
November 21st, 2008 at 3:06 pm

Instrumentals are another issue. I’m open to your thoughts

My thoughts are that I am less prone than I used to be to label something that my God inspired as Christian or secular.

81   John Hughes    
November 21st, 2008 at 3:14 pm

Nathanael, just a thought to consider. If everything is sacred, then nothing is sacred. The former is not the Biblical worldview. The Bible has much to say about “set apartness”, both in the Old and New covenants. On the other hand, it is a gift to be able to discern God’s fingerprints in all of Creation’s myriad facets. We should all have your spiritual eyes.

82   Nathanael    http://borrowedbreath.com/
November 21st, 2008 at 3:17 pm

“Set-apartness” had to do with people, not with music.

83   Pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
November 21st, 2008 at 3:19 pm

82
Yes, and that is why people who choose to follow Christ, based upon convictions they find in the Bible, along with the Holy Spirit’s work in their lives, choose not to listen to certain types of music. They are set apart to God, and in this set apartness, they are following God in obedience in mortifying some of their fleshly desires.

84   Nathanael    http://borrowedbreath.com/
November 21st, 2008 at 3:23 pm

Is my wanting to listen to Coldplay a fleshly desire?

85   Nathanael    http://borrowedbreath.com/
November 21st, 2008 at 3:26 pm

…people who choose to follow Christ, based upon convictions they find in the Bible, along with the Holy Spirit’s work in their lives, choose not to listen to certain types of music.

Could we just start that statement with “…some people…”?

Otherwise, it appears from this statement, if I don’t “choose not to listen to certain types of music,” I am not following Christ and the Holy Spirit is not at work in my life.

86   Nathanael    http://borrowedbreath.com/
November 21st, 2008 at 3:26 pm

Sorry for the double negatives.

87   nc    
November 21st, 2008 at 3:28 pm

This is going to sound elitist and arrogant, but….here goes…

I’m glad I’ve moved beyond these discussions.

What a waste of time.

Circles, circles, circles with a dash of sanctimonious ick.

forget it.

These battles also rise largely because “free church” worship–which used to be a theological term meaning “free to order worship apart from hierarchal ecclesial authority and presumably according to the Bible”–has morphed into a stance of “free to do whatever the H, E, double hockey sticks we want”.

We don’t have this argument when we use the prayer book. Every activity focuses on God as Trinity and the person of Christ. There’s no arguing that.

Matters of style become an issue of what is the local parish cultural language, but the content and the rubrics do not change. So some parishes are high-church formal, others are broad church convergence style, some are simple low church no bells and whistles, but we’re all on the same page and our content is God focused.

If you’re not after worshipping with us then it’s really on you.

88   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
November 21st, 2008 at 3:37 pm

I do not like the term “worship service” since it seems to denote some form of organized pageant. How many believers hold “worship services” alone? How about “worship services” without any music or singing?

What exactly is worship?

89   John Hughes    
November 21st, 2008 at 4:07 pm

NC. What a waste of time.

I understand where you are coming from, but I for one can be moved by a well heeled cohesive argument based on Biblical principles. For example, my awareness and understanding of several issues have been affected by my participation here. (For example SOL is no longer on my Favorites list :-)

I welcome challanges to my convictions. Of course I often have a gut reaction when any of my core personal convictions are challenged, but I always try to hear what the other person is saying, weight it against Scripture and change if I need to or say “thanks for your comments, but I don’t agree” and move on.

I have written off certain individuals who post here because I see absolutely no light in them, but even then it is helpful on some levels to know what the “other” side thinks.

I have found most authors here to be fairly balanced. So I do learn and evolve in some instances or conversely, my current core values are strengthen when challenged.

But back to your original point, yes, there are certain topics I’ve analyzed to death and have only become more certain of my convictions and find it best to just move on.

90   John Hughes    
November 21st, 2008 at 4:15 pm

Nathanael,

I for one could say without a moments hesitation that someone who listens to **and** enjoys music on a consistent basis which glorifies premarital sex, drug use, murder, misogeny, rebellion, etc., and sees no problem with that ** or** is not under conviction is either backslidden or not a Christian. Such a lifestyle shows one who is absorbed with pleasing and justifying self and not the god they say they profess.

91   john b    
November 22nd, 2008 at 2:31 am

Rick Frueh Says:

I do not like the term “worship service” since it seems to denote some form of organized pageant. How many believers hold “worship services” alone? How about “worship services” without any music or singing?

What exactly is worship?

Soooo very true! Our entire life is supposed to be a worship service…..directly to God. So what exactly is “corporate worship”? Serious question. Is it a gathering of Christians? Is there a specific protocol of a “worship service?” Is a “worship service” different from a “church service”? Are we just holding things to a standard of tradition?

Obviously there is a time to study as the Bereans did….and the Bible is pretty clear that is done corporately as well as individually. There is a time to celebrate and that has been shown in the Bible as a corporate thing and individual as well.

Our giving of our time and talent is also worship. We do that corporately and individually. Doing the things that God has gifted us to do to His glory IS worship be it in business, arts, labor, etc. When we really realize that we can find worship all around us all of the time.

Now some of those gifts can be more “showy” than others and that is where we have to be careful. But when in balance God can be glorified by someone say, painting or playing music or reciting poetry (ugh….lol) as he has been gifted to the glory of God while others observe and share in that gift as worship to God for being The Creator of creativity.

I think when we start to see worship in it’s fullness and not just an hour on Sunday morning for music and a sermon then we see the freedom to engage in worship in so many more ways.

Who knows, perhaps a talent night at church led in the right manner could be one of the best “nights of worship” a church could have. And the body could see many talents in a way they have never seen.

Ok, I know I am really stretching the envelope here. LOL

92   John Hughes    
November 22nd, 2008 at 2:45 pm

John B. Let me ask you a question. Do you honestly believe that someone who is NOT willing to set aside just one hour a week for intentional worship is going to “find worship around them all the time?”

93   john b    
November 22nd, 2008 at 6:56 pm

John Hughes,

I think you have missed my ENTIRE point. Sadly. You seem to be prescribing some certain type of worship for only one hour a week for “corporate worship.” I wish for worship much more than just an hour in various ways among the body including giving, serving, celebrating, etc.

There is no magic formula for worship. God is an infinite God with an infinite capacity to receive worship. He is not restricted to one hour a week on Sunday mornings, as much as I LOVE that. But let’s let other local churches decide as their body how they will worship together without our ridicule.

94   john hughes    
November 22nd, 2008 at 8:36 pm

JohnB You are missing my point entirely. American Christians are so self centered they cannot devote just one hour to worship (in what ever form) without demanding to be entertained. That is my point. And if they can’t even do that then they are light years away from experiencing what you are describing.

95   john hughes    
November 22nd, 2008 at 8:37 pm

But let’s let other local churches decide as their body how they will worship together without our ridicule pity

96   john b    
November 23rd, 2008 at 1:27 am

It would appear John Hughes that you are trying to be the arbiter of what is worship and what is entertainment……and still stuck on this hour thing?

Oh well. Enjoy your hour later this morning. I will have a couple with the family at church. I will be teaching SS and I promise you we will laugh a bit. Hope that’s cool.

Sincerely, have a good Lord’s day.

97   nc    
November 23rd, 2008 at 5:08 pm

All you people should just entreat Chris P to descend from his holy mountain and make a pronouncement.

Since he regularly seems to think he’s in a position to do so on these things.

*cough* “Holy Spirit” *cough*

;)

98   john hughes    
November 23rd, 2008 at 9:34 pm

John B. Thanks! We did have a great Lord’s day at church. About 4,o00 of us sang contemporary praise songs (gasp!). Well actually we had five services. One traditional with just hymns, two blended and two contemporary. We made it through all five services without one secular song sung and without a single chorus line. We laughed a lot BTW. Raised our hands in praise and worship and then heard a great sermon. Wow. I was holding my breath on that one! Pretty much everything was Godward (except our music minister’s silly pun about his middle age spread).

It is so cool and awesome to look out over the congregation, thousands strong and see them praising the Lord in **corporate** worship. There is something special and thrilling about the synergery generated when two or more are gathered in His name. It just takes on a special meaning and signifigance. You know it’s a special time. A time set apart from the mundane and profance. Why it’s a sacred time. That’s it!. A building of brick and mortor suddenly becomes a place where the Church, the true Church meets God in a special way. You know, a sacred place, made sacred (i.e., set apart) not in and of itself but because of the people gathered there with common intent and purpose whose God **promised** He would make His presence known in a special way.

So thanks for your blessing this morning. It took!

99   john b    
November 24th, 2008 at 1:41 am

Good deal John. My, dare I say it should Ingrid be reading it, “experience” was much the same. :) I love church.

I do hope you wore your “Sunday best” to further consecrate the hour. LOL.

Not to belabor the point. I think we have probably “spoke” past each other and it’s just not that big of a deal to me. I’ve never been to a church that played secular music, well, except at the very end when people were leaving and the band was jamming. LOL

But I still won’t tell other churches what their “worship” should be limited too if it is not unbiblical. I guess I best be blessing all of your Sunday mornings in the future since it worked out so well.

LOL. Have a good week bro.

100   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
November 25th, 2008 at 7:17 am

Phil – here is another wonderful example of God’s love and redemption that runs through SoL:

http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/culture-war/the-fairness-doctrine-comes-to-eharmony/

Notice these redemptive gems – “gay fascism outrage” and “queer shakedown”. This is what happens when Christianity morphs into a culture war and is championed by sinners who claim to be standing in grace personally but whose hobby is sowing Christless law through adolescent invectives.

101   john b    
November 25th, 2008 at 2:03 pm

Rick, I was disgusted by the same use of “queer” as you. We will never reach those we do not respect no matter their sins. You know, “love the sinner, hate the sin.”

I do not necessarily agree with your apparent stand that Christians should not engage in the cultural battle if I read you correctly but it should be done with respect, something I’m not sure Ingrid is capable of.

Has anyone else noted her article about Michael Jackson converting to Islam? I have not seen it anywhere else. Drudge would have had it linked I’m sure and I did a google on it. Methinks Ingrid was hoodwinked by a tabloid. Would not be a first for her.

102   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
November 25th, 2008 at 2:20 pm

John – I cannot express in words how profoundly I reject the high browed hyperbole leveled against individuals and/or groups of people. Ingrid knows nothing about gay struggles and is obvious content to spew self serving invectives rather than reach out in uncompromising love and grace.

Many ODMs are very concerned with parading their doctrinal floats to the applause of many, but they are not interested in deepening their love and compassion toward sinners for whom Christ died. There will be some gays who commit suicide this very week because of a tortured self hatred and the reality of harsh, name calling rejection spoken by those who claim they know the Author of redemption’s grace.

103   john b    
November 25th, 2008 at 4:44 pm

Rick – you put into words much better then what I could have. So many believers utter lip service to “grace” and then trash sinners for sinning.

I “hit bottom” in my sin, even as a staff member of a church and had to resign, but that church, so often maligned by the ODM’s, lovingly restored me, without shame. I learned so very much from that painful episode in my life yet God allowed some good to come from it and as a result I am able to minister to grace to others. Admittedly, I have a hard time administering that grace for bitter Pharisaical Christians we so often see in ODM ministries.

I would much rather err on the side of grace than judgment anytime. Occasionally some might think me “liberal” (what a hoot) but in that area I think Christ would have been a “liberal” in their mind.

I would love to see someone post an article on this and the resulting discussion. Thank you for your wise and reasoned response.