me, on a good dayADM Policy:  If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.  If it is broke, don’t fix it.  Just point it out.

You know how, when shopping in a store, if you actually need help, you can never find an employee; but if you’re fine, they come crawling out of the woodwork?  I’ve yet to find a solution to the problem, but I have figured out how to alleviate the frustration a bit.  When asked, “Can I help you?” (which is only when I don’t need help), I respond, “They tell me that I’m beyond help.”  It amuses me, sometimes the employee laughs too, and (if not) it’s always fun to mess with someone who talks as though they’re reading a script and doesn’t really give a rat’s glutes about you.

Well, apparently they (who say I’m beyond help) are right.  Or at least, so would say an ADM owner.

I’m not going to name the person, and will take pains to genericize the issue so as not to make it easy to figure out.  I will give the person a pseudonym — Patrick — and I will note that (surprise, surprise) the issue was regarding the “Emerging church”.  But the exact identity/issue is not particularly relevant, especially given the fact that I’ve encountered the same kind of spirit in many ADMs.

I recently came across a post by Patrick whose main point stood in direct opposition to an argument used by others of his ilk against a statement I have made on several occasions.  Actually, it’s inaccurate to state that this was it’s main point — it was the headline, and was obliquely referenced a number of times — but there was no evidence, links, or information supporting that point.  There were, admittedly, 8 links in the article, but none supporting the point.

I sent Patrick an email noting both the dissonance between his “point” and that of others, and also the lack of information on how he arrived at that point.  His response, though somewhat brief, contained all of the following:

  • absolute non-sequitur
  • statements that only bolstered my issue
  • gross over-generalizations  (What?  About Emerging?  No, never.)
  • insight into the inner workings of others’ hearts  (What?  From an ADM?  No, never.)
  • snarky and facetious uses of terminology used by some Emerging leaders
  • a statement that his point was “quite obvious” to him
  • an accusation that I hadn’t provided proof that his main “point” was incorrect (!!!)

This last one really threw me for a loop.  Patrick makes a definitive public statement, I ask him for evidence, and he states that I haven’t provided evidence to the contrary.  But let’s not dwell on that — it makes my hair bleed.

Having sufficiently evaded/ignored my actual questions better than any politician could dream of doing, he closed his note with “Thanks for playing”.

Trying to drag the conversation back into the same area code as my point, I sent him another note, clarifying my questions, claiming honest ignorance over what was “quite obvious” to him, and (to what extent possible) responding to the points in his email.  Riffing off his “Thanks for playing”, I closed my note with “Thus beginneth round 2″.

I received a reply stating that there would be no round 2.  I asked why, and he replied that it was pointless. I (admittedly, sarcastically) responded with what seemed to be his interpretation of Galatians 6:1 :

Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, unless you deem it pointless.

His response was “Titus 3:9″ which reads:

But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

Never mind that the context of this verse is false teaching and church discipline, not questions.  If you don’t want to talk to someone anymore because you consider them a fool, just whip out this verse.

I’m glad God didn’t give up on me that easily.

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This entry was posted on Friday, December 5th, 2008 at 11:50 am and is filed under Misuse of Scripture, ODM Policies. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
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15 Comments(+Add)

1   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
December 5th, 2008 at 12:02 pm

Brendt,

Patrick makes a definitive public statement, I ask him for evidence, and he states that I haven’t provided evidence to the contrary.

Logic? We don’t need no stinking logic!

As for Titus 3:9 (and 10), when dealing with ADM’s, you know they’ve reached the Godwin point when this verse appears.

2   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
December 5th, 2008 at 12:13 pm

I received a reply stating that there would be no round 2. I asked why, and he replied that it was pointless. I (admittedly, sarcastically) responded with what seemed to be his interpretation of Galatians 6:1

Ah, yes, it’s basically the ADMs fall back position of “I’m right because I’m right” followed by the “you’re wrong because I said so”.

Who can argue against such inscrutable debating skills?

3   Paula    http://www.purposedrivel.com
December 6th, 2008 at 12:47 am

Without any specifics as to the ISSUES we have to take your word for it that your assessment is accurate. I have no clue on either side, without being privy to details, which side I agree with.

Todd Friel does this kind of thing once in a while where he brings up something in too general a manner and it’s a completely frustrating waste of airtime. But I love his show otherwise.

4   Brendt Waters    http://www.csaproductions.com/blog/
December 6th, 2008 at 1:29 am

Paula, comparing me to Friel is a low blow. But I won’t hold it against you.

Having said that, I think you miss my point. The specifics are not important for this post. Nor am I interested in anyone’s agreement with “my side”.

My point is that Patrick apparently sees me as a waste of perfectly good carbon, and has no interest in actually educating me in (his version of) the truth. This stands in defiant disobedience to the command in Gal 6:1.

5   johnnyb    
December 6th, 2008 at 12:54 pm

Really…..just who ARE these self-professed “discerners”? What are their qualifications other than having a keyboard?

6   Joe    http://joemartino.name
December 6th, 2008 at 2:15 pm

Have you seen on Apprising where Ken Patrick compares his style to Irenaeus? Unbelievable.

7   j    
December 6th, 2008 at 5:42 pm

johnny, you said:

Really…..just who ARE these self-professed “discerners”?

What are their qualifications other than having a keyboard?

I got a question:

why isnt the churches using or teaching DISCERNMENT

———————————————–

What prophecy is currently being fulfilled?

(a video that most of the folks on here wont have the courage to check out)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB7fz8LrzYk

8   j    
December 6th, 2008 at 5:45 pm

BTW:

Jan Markell and Todd Friel and Noah Hutchings and Bill Keller of liveprayer.com

are all radio show hosts

they use DISCERNMENT too,

I mean they are at least qualified to speak out against false teachers like Warren and Bell

oh, that is right, anyone who criticizes Rob Bell and Rick Warren

is to be discredited cause you want your ears itched and could care less if they are leading people astray

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB7fz8LrzYk

9   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
December 6th, 2008 at 6:20 pm

What prophecy is currently being fulfilled?

I predict that you will continue to link to inane Youtube videos full of hearsay, fearmongering, and horrible production value..

I predict that people like Rick Warren and Rob Bell will continue be trashed by two-bit internet critic out of jealousy…

I predict that I will continue to not care what the ADMs say…

Prophecy is being fulfilled in my lifetime!

10   j    
December 6th, 2008 at 6:32 pm

so, in other words, you didnt watch the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB7fz8LrzYk

phil, since when is using DISCERNMENT considered “fearmongering”

11   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
December 6th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
What prophecy is currently being fulfilled?

I predict that you will continue to link to inane Youtube videos full of hearsay, fearmongering, and horrible production value..

I predict that people like Rick Warren and Rob Bell will continue be trashed by two-bit internet critic out of jealousy…

I predict that I will continue to not care what the ADMs say…

Prophecy is being fulfilled in my lifetime!

Phil Miller – modern prophet.

phil, since when is using DISCERNMENT considered “fearmongering”

Since “DISCERNMENT” (as provided in your video) became devoid of very little actual discernment…

12   Brendt    http://csaproductions.com/blog/
December 7th, 2008 at 2:27 am

j, I find it quite fascinating that you refuse to address the actual — ya know — topic of my post; then take it even further by naming names when I specifically took pains not to do so.

But, hey, it’s impossible to make ad hominem attacks on an issue, so it’s understandable.

You stated:

… you want your ears itched and could care less if they are leading people astray.

Actually, this is not true for a number of reasons that I won’t go into right now.

So, seeing as how you were the one who brought up the issue of prophecy, and seeing as how they stoned false prophets in Bible times ….

13   johnnyb    
December 7th, 2008 at 3:58 am

>>>>>>>> j Says:

BTW:

Jan Markell and Todd Friel and Noah Hutchings and Bill Keller of liveprayer.com

are all radio show hosts

they use DISCERNMENT too, <<<<<<<<<<<

Sooooo, a radio program counts as a value point towards being qualified to be a “discernment minister?” On that basis so could: Howard Stern, John-Boy and Billy Bob, Dr. Laura, etc.

:)

PS. Can someone post a quick tip on how to properly post quotes? Have not discerned it correctly on this type of forum yet.

Gracias,

14   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
December 7th, 2008 at 9:31 am

To box your quote: Shade your quote, click on the double arrows above this comment box, and click on B-Quote.

Is there anyone with whom we disagree that we can approach as sincere yet misguided? The projected transferance of authority from God’s Word to people is unfortunate and just adds to the unchristian ambiance.

There is perhaps nothing so intoxication, nothing so empowering, and nothing so patently dangerous than assuming one speaks for God. When dialogue elicits rancor and condescention and a general atmosphere of verbal assault, then we can be assured that nothing productive can be birthed. In three years of internet partcipation I have learned two main things.

1. It seems that the church is continuing to expand the parameters of what is called “doctrine”.

2. It seems that the personal and practical exhibition of the life of Jesus is no longer a core topic of interest.

In short, I continue to be more and more convinced that Christianity as God desires it is not being practiced in the western church, and in fact, the entire definition of what it means to be a believing follower of Jesus the Messiah has been changed to accommodate many differring schools of thought that usually focus on different aspects of Biblical teachings to the detriment of others.

15   johnnyb    
December 7th, 2008 at 12:02 pm

Thank you Rick.

Good words.