I went home to visit with the family yesterday and while there my dad burned me a couple of Dolly Parton CD’s. I remember listening to DP as a kid and enjoying the fine harmonies and country smoothness. One of the songs I was treated to, and hadn’t heard or a long time, was Harper Valley (PTA). I thought you might enjoy it. The only problem is that this version is not the Dolly Parton version of the song. It’s Jeannie C Riley.
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126 Comments(+Add)
I am curious:
is radio show hosts Noah Hutchings and Hank Hannegraff and Jan Markell
all ADM’ers since they are critical of Rob Bell
Not necessarily… I have no idea who 2:3 of those guys are – but that’s moot. ADM (armchair discernment ministry) status is not achieved by who you oppose – opinion in this is irrelevant. One attains ADM status through shoddy research, guilt-by-association tactics, silvanizing quotes, etc…
In other words, ADM status is not decreed based on position – it is decreed based on lack of actual discernment and/or honesty.
No one here opposes honest disagreement and critique of anyone (Bell included). But we will insist it involved actual discernment and honesty. So, we’d have to see the actual objections to Bell before granting ADM status.
Hasn’t this question been asked and answered a few times on other threads? You got any new music, J?
neil and Joe, I thought that is how someone got branded a ADMer
cause it seems anyone who criticizes Rob Bell and Rick warren
automatically gets attacked by Chris Lyons and Joe Martino and other bloggers
joe, to answer your question:
Batman Intro from the 1966 Show with footage from the Joel Schumacher Film “Batman & Robin)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2OhHn-qd1k
neil, I want to ask this to you and to anyone else who is on this site a lot:
has anyone made any criticism of Rob Bell or Rick Warren
that you guys actually agree with the critic of Bell or warren’s on
BTW:
I have disagreed with a number of things that Ingrid and Ken say
though there have been instances where they are right.
for instance, theyre comments on Joel Osteen and Ed Young Jr
are right. both have watered down the gospel in order to be loved by the world.
Right. The ADM culture is not based on intellectual honesty or actual theological error. It is based on condescension, arrogance, and the ungodly assumption that anyone on earth has a right to determine who is and is not ‘in the club.’
The ADM culture is not interested in honest theological discussion and debate. It is interested in being the sole arbiter of truth and the absolute authority of righteousness.
It is based on the idea that there is one ‘right’ interpretation of Scripture and that those who do not have it are heretics or apostates of the most egregious sort.
It fails to take into consideration Jesus’ challenge that ‘he without sin should cast the first stone.’
I don’t know anything about any of the three people j mentioned. I have only ever heard of Hanegraff, never read any of his books, or listen to his programs.
I’m critical of Bell: I don’t like his glasses.
why do you not listen to Hank’s programs.
cause he speaks out on false teachings or is it….
http://www.olivetreeviews.org/
is Jan Markell’s website
http://www.swrc.com/
and:
http://www.swrc.com/ministry/schedule/schedule.html
is Noah Hutching’s website
jerry you said:
The ADM culture is not interested in honest theological discussion and debate.
couldnt that argument be made by some in the emergent church movement as well
who try to avoid answering questions in interviews
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=rob+bell+false+teacher&start=10&sa=N
google.com info on Rob Bell and his “teachings”
I have at times been very critical of Bell and Warren as well as Ingrid and Ken.
Anyone who goes by the title, “Bible Answer Man” is suspect, IMO.
Reducing the Bible to something that would make for a good game show makes a mockery of that which they desire to exalt.
RE: …in order to be loved by the world.
You see, J, THAT is exactly where the critique comes against ADM’s…
It’s one thing to demonstrate someone is watering down the gospel…it’s another to assert all kinds of specious motives that you or I have no way of knowing.
Couldn’t it be that they have watered down the gospel (notice I’m agreeing here…) because of some mistaken or misguided desire to spread the Gospel as far as possible?
That’s what gets critiqued here…those kinds of “God-like” looking into the heart and attributing the worst kinds of motives possible to people.
They may be mistaken, but to attribute “intentionality” to it is what really gets many people’s goats around here…and, by the way, it deserves a sharp rebuke. Because the “intentionality” implicity or explicit in those charges is the very basis on which people justify the demonizing and high-minded rhetoric.
That’s the difference…and that is what gets dealt with here.
Anyone whose full name is one letter is, IMO, suspect.
No, it’s an issue of tactics.
“Reducing the Bible to something that would make for a good game show makes a mockery of that which they desire to exalt.”
I agree, just like the xxx church. Gimmickery.
You have also, at times, been very critical of Rick F. Strange, that.
neil: you said you guys are open-minded
I would be curious, then what
http://christianresearchnetwork.info/2008/12/19/dear-a-little-leaven-a-holiday-gift/
or:
http://christianresearchnetwork.info/2008/12/09/pirate-christian-radio/
in which Joe Martino is saying that he dosent want anyone who disagrees with
the emergent church and the seeker sensitive movement and Rick warren
to have a voice
BTW, Joe Martino is a mouthpiece for Mars Hill “Church” in Grand Rapids
It’s like a preacher I heard the other day say that during Easter the major news mags always do articles on Jesus featuring “liberal” theologians that want to shoot holes in our faith.
Yeah…it couldn’t possibly be out of a desire to be “faithful” as they understand it in light of the scholarship of history.
I know a few of those “liberal” theologians and they are people who love Jesus dearly and the Scriptures and don’t want people mishandling them in light of what they understand.
Do you see how the aforementioned rhetoric is dishonest and neutralizes any real kind of understanding between people…not to mention it’s bearing false witness against your neighbor?
nc – well said.
Jerry – I always thought j was you, only feeling lazy.
Jerry – Rick Frueh deserves much more criticism than he receives, but I tend to give him a charitable reading.
rick, dont get me stated on the xxx church
a number of the pastors who are the mark driscoll wannabees out there
who have preached questionable sermons on sex
and have gotten publicity because of their language
have close times to the xxx church
go on to almost any church’s website that has preached a mark driscoll like sex sermon,
chances are you will find the xxx church is a close friend of that church
conicidence?
I praise God that there are people courageous enough to follow the leading of the Spirit into the wilderness such as xxx church has done.
It is so hard to imagine what the world would like like if we prayed for what we don’t understand rather than criticize and tear down.
Not sure, probably… but that’s not the point. This site is dedicated to pointing out the faulty methods and attitudes of the ADM’s. To point out criticisms we agree with would be pointless.
J,
You are either grossly misinformed or just flat out a liar. I imagine it is the latter as your reading comprehension skills would have to be really bad to be that misinformed. You should repent.
1. I am not the mouthpiece of anyone or any organization
2. I do not state anywhere that I don’t want anyone to not have a voice.
Please stop lying about me, Miss made up name
1. Actual quotes would be more helpful, as opposed to just post linking.
2. I’m pretty sure Joe didn’t say anyone disagreeing with the emergent church and the seeker sensitive movement and Rick Warren should have no voice.
3. There is no such thing as “the” emergent church.
4. Joe attends Mars Hill, but I do not think he is their mouthpiece.
Congrats on your promotion, Joe!!
Are you the guy I often hear doing the announcements just before Rob speaks? I will send a case of your favorite beverage if you can let me read one of them sometime.
OK – we’ve beaten the xxx-church horse to death before… unless you have a new complaint… move along please.
The Apostle Paul was sometimes heard “tearing down”, or in balanced parlance, contructive criticism. Read I Corinthians and find many criticisms – carnal, people followers, over emotional, – all to instruct and not just tear down. My criticism of the xxx church centers on their theatrics and not their targets for redemption.
With the right marketing techniques we can draw followers to Popeye.
Sure, but they are drawing people to Jesus. Jesus doesn’t need spinach.
But out of respect for Neil’s request, this chicken done been choked.
LOL,
The guy this is doing those announcements is one of the guys I share with so I’ll let you know what I can work out.
BTW, if J looks back, she’ll see the shark she just jumped over with that absurd comment.
Rick,
I know! Imagine how successful the church could have been if Paul hadn’t gotten involved!
jerry
Joe,
How’s the mouthpiece business these days? It’s quite a racket you got going there. Between your writing, your family, your schooling, your work, etc., etc., etc., you should be getting paid quite well to be a mouthpiece. You should tell the rest of us how you live without sleep.
jerry
That is the entire Pirate Christian Radio post.
J, you are a liar.
Well, Jerry, everyone knows that porn stars and sex addicts are just dying to walk into a traditional church where they are convinced they will be struck my lightening. When Paul said he becomes all things to all people he certainly did not mean them.
Anything in the comments that could be silvanized into you thinking they should have no voice – or was this a complete fabrication.
But Chad, we in the church don’t want their type in the church do we? I mean, people might talk. They might snicker. They might look at us strangely if they think that we have made room in our church for those types of people. It might give the church a bad reputation.
…bottom line is xxx.church is a parachurch organization – right? SO we can argue tactics all day long… I wonder if Campus Crusade has ever down anything “wrong.”
Complete Fabrication. I’d bet money J is a ADMer in hiding. By that I mean, hiding behind a little letter.
Hmmm. You have a point, Jerry. I work hard at maintaining the image I have in my community. I joined the respectable church downtown, ya know. Even the mayor attends! We have lunch at the country club after worship some days. I will never forget the day the town drunk barged in on one of our meals. I was never so embarrassed! I could hear the Jones’s at the next table over (they go to First Baptist cross town – and I KNOW how word spreads around over there!) whispering to each other, “look at them, eating with that sinner!”
I tell you what, we formed a committee straight away and voted unanimously that membership at our church comes with certain responsibilities – upholding our fine reputation is one of them!
I do.
This is also why we switched from ODM (Online Discernment Ministry) to ADM (Armchair Discernment Ministry)
The former is too general since there may be good discernment ministries online… the latter is more specific.
I never questioned their motives or their Christianity. Their methods are a legitimate topic of dialogue, at least among those neanderthal believers like me.
Chad and Jerry,
Enough of this nonsense. You know that Jesus would have never hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors. He certainly would not have hung out with anyone who believed in feeding the poor.
Well, to be fair he would have preached at them on a street corner. He would have spouted the 95 solas at them. He would have scremed at them. He would have told them they were going to Hell and made up posts about them offering their children to molech. He probably would have said something cool like, “Turn or Burn, buttheads!”
None of the religious leaders of His day were ever able to accuse him of looking like the world, or being too friendly with it. I mean, He even said “You’re always going to have poor people” and besides only those who are elect will be saved. He made them read, “Hell’s best Kept Secret” and slandered all of His Apostles…Oh wait. OK, I made that last bit up.
Jesus would have had an American flag behind Him on that street corner as He yelled,
“Go back to the bath houses you deviants!!”.
Yet another lie! How many do you get?
You know the irony about Pirate Christian Radio is that A Little Leaven has made a living, so to speak, by mocking those who take ‘real life’ things and baptize them for profit by slapping the adjective ‘christian’ on them.
Then he goes and takes a real life tragedy, not some merely harmless think like a company log, but real life, people are being murdered goods are being plundered kind of situation and uses it for profit.
Man, I love irony.
So, j, I’m fairly certain that was at least a part of Joe’s concern.
I have criticized Bell and Warren and yet I comment here without being “attacked”. So I am not part of “anyone”.
Joe, I have recently completed an extensive diachronal and linguistic study surrounding the semantic structure of “buttheads” in the 1st century.
My research has led me to conclude the the first century evangelists who screamed “Turn or Burn, buttheads!” were in fact our very first proctologists pleading with hemmorhoids to either retreat to whence them came (turn) or face the everlasting fires of their scapel (burn).
While launching grenades at Evan’s parade float.
But Rick, we all know that you are harmless.
*sharpens scapel*
Don’t get too comfortable, Rick.
And don’t try to run – I’m slippery.
I believe the origin of the “turn or burn” evangelism began in Geneva. Calvin’s decendents still recieve royalties.
Chad – I am a pacifist…unless provoked.
And Servetus’ decendents would still recieve life insurance proceeds had it not been for that unfortunate “collateral damage of the church” clause.
More specific – it’s the “justified doctrinal homocide” clause. The burning of Servetaus was the beginning of the practice of dinner on the grounds.
Listen, I’m still very concerned about all ‘those’ people who are thinking about church. Don’t you think it would be a good idea to at least get them to dress correctly? Shouldn’t they bathe and have some grooming? Chad, I know you are really concerned about people, but I just don’t know if I can go along with you on this one. Who’s going to clean the carpet or get the stink out of the $115 chairs? And can we risk all the illnesses that might come along with sharing communion with them? I think the risk is too great.
I do not understand the significance of this post.
Jerry, is the singer representative of the ADM ministry of CRN.info (Against Discernment Ministry) and folks like Rob Bell, Brian McLaren, Doug Pagitt, Rick Warren, et.al being accused by ODM’s of wrongdoing and wrong preaching by folks like Myself, Chris R. Ken S. and Ingrid? (The harper valley ADM’s)?
If so, are we saying that we are all guilty of wrongdoing?
John – I have never heard Ken do this, but Ingrid has several times criticized unbelievers behavior and looks when they enter a church in which she is attending. That is the point.
The point of this post is the listen to a fun song that was originally sung by Jeannie C Riley, and re-recorded by Dolly Parton. Oh, I just noticed the ADM part. It should have said, “Harper Valley, PTA”. My bad.
You can make of it what you want. The rest of us just enjoyed a good ole country song from days gone by.
#60
Oh. Well you better have Neil change the title then. We wouldn’t want any misunderstanding.
Two questions:
1. Have you ever actually heard Ken preach? (honest question a yes or no will do as long as it is/was a sermon that he preached not just wrote)
2. are you saying Ingrid is a preacher?
Joe,
Is ‘Ken’ even a real person? His FB is a picture of an ape?!?
jerry
Exhibit A =
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/announcement/wanted-an-old-fashioned-church/
Joe,
No, Ingrid is not a preacher. No I have never heard Ken preach. But the point was we are pointing out bad teaching and preaching.
Kind of the old ‘those can, preach; those who can’t/won’t, ADM’ thing right?
#64
I guess “A. Christian” would not come to our church plant. We cannot afford Hymnals yet, so we have to put words on the wall. We sing hymns and contemporary songs which are theologically correct. Our little band, made up of two guitarists which are my sons (one adopted, one biological) have very long hair, but still love the Lord.
Careful, John, your church may warrant a post on SoL.
Yeah, PB…the cosmetics of your church, by ADM standards, is an abomination and a blasphemy…you might even rate as a “pastor”…
Could there be anything so self righteous and even so humanistic as presenting a testimony of someone’s salvation and showcasing it as your presentation of the “clear cut gospel”? Does the self righteousness ever end? Some cannot even rejoice in the saving grace of God without TAKING SOME CREDIT THEMSELVES!!
I was saved listening to a vague and foggy presentation of the gospel by Billy Graham.
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/evangelism/a-powerful-testimony-to-the-clear-cut-gospel/
BTW – If that presentation did not include BAPTISM it wasn’t the clear cut gospel!!
Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t that SoL post by implication mean that God cannot save the elect without her version of the clear cut gospel? Where is Calvin when you need him??
This one of the most arrogant, ethnocentric, self-absorbed expressions I read in a very long time. It’s shameful.
Neil – you have inadvertantly revealed that your church is not what she’s lookin’ for.
Too bad…
Can you imagine having Ingrid sitting in your congregation and every phrase, every illustration, every attempt at humor, and all throughout your message you are aware she is sifting you and your message? I would rather go through the tribulation period.
Rick,
Particularly since it’s all externals…
This talk about who the church is inspired this:
Being and Witnessing: The Church
I once told Ingrid that a liturgical service was a shadow of the law and not in keeping with the spirit of the New Testament. She took some offense but I still believe the redundant semblance of things like candles, altar, priestly robes, etc. are carry-overs of the Old Testament temple. And interestingly enough many who worship in those externals are prdieful about it.
We are the temples in the New Testament.
Rick,
With each passing comment you make, I find myself drawn closer to your heart. Seriously. I really appreciate your point of view on a lot of things. Are you sure you are a real person? Real people are not supposed to be so even-handed and cool-headed and light-hearted. Stinking peacemaker! Anyhow, I don’t want to ruin a good ADM bashing by getting all sentimental or anything, so I’ll shut up now. Later.
jerry
Jerry, thanks. The older I get, the more I have to go. I honestly believe that when we arrive in the presence of the Risen Christ, two things will stand out most prominently.
God’s holiness.
God’s grace.
And I will praise Him for both, because if it were not for Him, I would have neither.
Of course there is one season in which I practice the litergy – college football season, you know, Notre dame and all that. Purdue should try it!
#79
I am still waiting for Rick to sing the USC rouser after the huge defeat of the Irish!
The first shall be last.
Chris – the submissions will not connect. The current SoL post contains this snide and adolescent quote:
Where is there room for condescension when attempting to deal with offering redemption to sinners? I find quotes like these to be unchristian and a looking glass into the breathtaking self righteousness of some bloggers. Jesus was a friend of sinners and the enemy of the self righteous, and the Scriptures declare He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
There, a mini systematic theology.
Being unfamiliar with the A. Larry Ross mention, I assumed it was in keeping with the overall pontification of the quote. He seems to have a Christian communications firm that trains in effective communication in this culture.
Of course that can be overdone, but could that type of traing not be considered on a par with certain missionary training about communicating in different cultures?
French? Russian? South African? Etc.? I get it, because Rick Warren uses him (I guess) that makes it part of the antichrist system and useful in adding to the Christian book:
“One Thousand Demeaning and Cynical Jokes for the Humble Follower of Jesus Christ”
As is evidence by my comment I have no respect for those who address important issues with caustic and self serving words designed to demean the target person and cement your own unassailable standing before God.
Looks like another “everything sifted through the grid of dispensationalism” site… even her critique of the Emergent Church (she uses the term monolithically and confuses it it with “emerging” – two errors she has in common with the ADM’s) is based on eschatology.
I was given a new Bible translation for Christmas. Here are a few of the highlights from Matthew:
Matt 5:29-30 – If your right eye causes you to sin,
gouge it output a patch on itand throw it away. It is better for you (to lose the use of one part of your body) than for your whole body to be thrown intohelltime-out. And if your right hand causes you to sin,cut it off and throw it awaydon’t wash it until it shapes up. It is better for you (to lose the use) of one part of your body than for your whole body to go intohelltime-out.Matt 7:13 – “Enter through
the narrowany ole gate. Forwide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road thatall leads to life, andonly a feweventually everyone find it.Matt 7:21-23 –
Noteveryonewho says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’will enter the kingdom of heaven,but only he who doeseven those who do not do the will of my Father who is in heaven. . . Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you.Away from me, you evildoers!’but come on in anyway!Matt 10:32-33 – “Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will
disownacknowledge him anyway before my Father in heaven.Matt 12:36-37 – But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be
condemnedsent to time out until you learn better.”Matt 13:28-30 – “…The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
” ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the
weedsproto-wheat, you may root up the now-wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect theweedsproto-wheat and tie them in bundles to beburnedput in time-out; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ ”Matt 13:43 – “As the
weedsproto-wheat are pulled up andburned in the firesent to time-out , so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they willweedtather out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They willthrowgently sned hem intothe fiery furnacetime-out, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, but they will eventually see the errors of their way and join the wheat. Thenthe righteousthey all will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.Matt 13:50 – “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets,
but threwthe badawayin time-out. This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate thewickednaughty from the righteous andthrowgently, but firmly, place them intothe fiery furnace,into time-out where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, but they will get over it.Matt 18:7-9 – “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! If your hand or your foot causes you to sin,
cut it off and throw it awayjust don’t wash it for a few days. It is better for you to enter lifemaimed or crippledwith dirty hands than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown intoeternal firethe heavenly time-out. And if your eye causes you to sin,gouge it out and throw it awaycover it with a patch. It is better for you to enter life with the use of just one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown intothe fire of helltime-out.Matt 24: 31-46 – “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the
goatsproto-sheep. He will put the sheep on his right and thegoatsproto-sheeps on his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. . . .“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are
cursed, naughtly into theeternal firetemporary time-out prepared for the devil and his angels. . . .”Then they will go away toeternal punishmenttemporary time out, but eventually with the righteous to eternal life.”Looks like another “everything sifted through the grid of dispensationalism” site… with the KJV is superior topping. I suppose if you are expecting a great falling away in the dispensational hermeneutic, you’ll find what you are looking for.
He confuses Christianity with culture a lot, probably due to a modernist view of Christendom. Most of his article under “Christianity” were about the culture… not Christianity, but then again – if you use the dispensational hermeneutic the end of Christendom fits nicely (though you pretty much need to ignore all the down-sides of Christendom to make it fit)
John – we are not starting the universalism discussion again… please move on to something else.
It probably could. Though the latter avoid the issues while the former engage in dishonest twisting, shallow reading, sloppy posting – in other words… lack of true discernment.
#85
John,
Did you get the Voice for Christmas?
These are excellent arguments, and the are, for the most part, red letters!
I suppose it could. So? No one here is arguing that the so-called ‘emergent church movement’ is without flaws. however, neither are we saying that the opposition is perfect. The ADM culture condescends as if they are without flaw, as if their discernment is vital to the progress of God’s kingdom. That’s the problem. They have no room for grace and most of their discernment is not vital theological discernment, but matters of mere interpretive dissent.
That depends… most of the interviews you might be referring to were not honest in their purpose as they engaged the interviewee.
I most cases the answers are given and then twisted to the point that the interviewer makes them the opposite as the the interviewees statement.
I remember one where Ingrid kept asking, “how do you base truth?” the person stated, “Scripture, tradition, history and a relationship with Jesus..” and Ingrid brought out Bob Dewaay… and then stated that the person denied the bible…
What answer did Ingrid want? “the bible”… but that was not the answer given… and though the bible is insufficient an answer to how what we base truth on, it was dishonest in how it was presented and what was expected..
The other interviews where with Todd Friel who was just rude off the top and really deserved no answer to his antagonistic attitude.
Also if you just base your questions on those who are against Emergent… you are missing the many other interviews, lectures and blogs where answers are given…
iggy
“Also if you just base your questions on those who are against Emergent… you are missing the many other interviews, lectures and blogs where answers are given… ”
That is sometimes a problem as well. Even if the interview was not honest in its approach, that is no excuse for being slippery. Let us be honest also, many times the unclear/slippery answers are to soften the blow about what the interviewee actually believes.
If you truly believe something – say so clearly.
#85
So, John, did you get the “Voice” for Christmas, or did you make those ‘corrections’ yourself?
There should not be any disagreement from our closet Universalists, I mean, after all, these are mostly ‘red letter’ quotes.
Of course, you and I will be labeled as insensitive, lacking grace, because we say that there are those who actually go to Hell.
Found this quote below at Jan Markell’s website. I had never heard of Jan Markell until a day ago. Anyhow, consider this quote:
It’s almost as if Markell has read her Bible, isn’t it?
The very fact that she rails against Harry Potter is enough for me to dismiss her ‘ministry’ as meaningless, over the top, hysteria filled nonsense, and, to answer ‘j’s’ question, yes: She is ADM too.
No we will just say that your seeming delight in it is rather depressing. But this is a thread about Dolly Parton and Jeannie C Riley, so please don’t mess up this thread.
#94
I take no delight in people going to Hell. In fact, it is my secondary motivation for evangelism: The first being bring glory to God. I do not want to see anybody going to Hell. But, if they do, that is still to the glory of God.
We will not be able to understand this fully until we are in glory, but even when a loved one goes to Hell, we will praise God because we will be able to see and to understand the lengths He has gone to save that person. He will wipe every tear from our eye.
The greatest glory God gets is by saving people like me who were wretched, wicked, unredeemable sinners. When God saved me, it was not for my benefit (though I benefited) it was for His ultimate praise and glory.
#93
So a commentary on a wicked series of books that promote witchcraft, idolatry, sorcery, lying, stealing, etc. gives you enough to dismiss her entire ministry? Have you done the same for Richard Abanes?
I made this observation over the holidays; one of my nieces is absolutely infatuated with the Twilight novels, and she claims to be a Christian. She literally during the entire family Christmas Eve gathering did not stop talking about twilight. I asked her if she had read her Bible as much as these books, if her Bible was as doggeared as these. She said no; and I simply reminded her, as a Christian, she should love the Lord and speak of Him more than of any human being and love His book more than any human book. Isay this because the danger in these books like Potter and Twilight is not so much the witchcraft and vampireism, but the idolatry of the characters and the novels themselves. Anything that removes desire for Bible study, prayer, and proclamation of Christ is evil.
Talk about depressing…..
Would that instrument in the video be considered a steel guitar or a lap steel?
Here’s from SWRM:
This doesn’t necessarily mean he is any smarter or better or more saved than anyone else. Plus the whole ‘end times’ thing is rather boring. Anyone can be an ‘acknowledged expert’ in ‘end times’ ‘Bible prophecy’. Example 1: JVI ministries. But to your point, I suppose if he is in the business of condemning others whose ministries he disagrees with, then Yes; he’s ADM too.
I don’t follow or read books by Richard Abanes, but if he has opposed Harry Potter for any of the reasons you stated, then yes, I will not pay attention to his work on the subject. Again, John Granger has written passionately about the value of HP. They are not anti-christian; they are not handbooks for witchcraft in any real life test. They are fictional novels along the lines of Narnia, LOTR, and others. But again, this is a post about Harper Valley,
ADMPTA.I believe Harry Potter is way down the list of evils in the world. Perhaps the millions in Darfur that are being murdered and starved might render a slightly higher evil in this world.
The “wicked witch of the west” phobia is way overblown, the demonic activity upon this planet is much more sophisticated and camouflaged that many seem to think. Harry Potter has been used as an easy target to substantiate anti-witchcraft credentials. I have not read any of them, and I do not suggest reading them. However I think the hedonistic ambiance is much more demonic than an admitted fictional story.
“Here’s a little fire scarecrow!”
PS–I dismissed her ‘ministry’ because it is a look at things filtered through a peculiar sort of dispen-sensationalism that have long since rejected. Also because if that’s all the better she can do with HP, then she either hasn’t read the books for herself or she has an agenda that has missed the point.
Rick,
OK yes or no… will a person stay eternally in the “biblical” hell?
don’t even bother answering as there is no
“yes or no” as it is such the type of question asked where if you are a Dualist/Platonist… they yes is the answer… but if you are a “biblical” believer, you would ask “what hell are you talking about?”
Now of course then the issue is the one asking will then assume…. you do not believe in hell… when the real issue is the asker did not define which “biblical” hell he was asking about?
Is hell… meaning the “grave” eternal? No… Is Tartarus, where Peter says the fallen angels are held until judgement eternal? No again… that one is not eternal…
So most often a slippery answer follower an inadequate question…
Do we go to a “place” call heaven when we die?…
Again,,, the Kingdom of Heaven is not a place as we know places… so my answer is “yes and no.”‘ Oh so slippery…. yet, if the eye has not seen or the mind conceived what God has prepared for us… then how can we with that in mind… describe heaven at all?
Is heaven eternal” Again… a Platonist/dualist will say yes without hesitation… but a biblical believer will stop and say… “Which heaven are you talking about?”…;
Again, not a slippery answer, but an inadequate question that is most often even unbiblcial or based on extra biblical concepts.
So what do we base truth on…?
My answer would be wrong by Ingrid… for it would have been “Jesus.”
iggy
I got a new book this holiday season. Sweet cover. Leather. Cross engraved in it. Sssssweeet. I mean it is awesome. I’m such a nerd. I love to read it. Until I got about half way through the first book in this mega-book. There was lying, murder, idolatry, even incest. It was morally reprehensible.
I had to stop reading it. I mean I know it’s the Bible and it’s ESV at that but come on, that stuff doesn’t have to be in there for the story of Law and Grace to be there does it? I doubt our friends would approve.
The hell question is not the entire controversy. Who gets saved is also high on the list. Your disection of the hell question should be condenced to a “I don’t know” answer.
And if all tough questions can be answered by “Jesus” then that is again unclear and an avoidance of an answer.
Rick,
Again, if the question itself is proposed to “catch” someone or at its core unbiblical… how do you give a “pet” right answer?
As far as the “who is saved?” Question… I hear over and over the answer from emerging and Emergent… is those that believe in Jesus for salvation.
The REAL controversy is that those posing the question assume God is not working in those who have yet come to believe in Jesus…
Now a Wesleyan would agree with the answer that God is wooing those to Himself through Jesus… but that would be “wrong” by many who are posing the question… as Wesley was not saved and taught works… and was a semi pelagian…
So most of the interviews that you and others are referring to… are from a minute section of Christianity…
As it is… if the question “who is saved?” were posed to CS Lewis and he pointed to his book The Last Battle… he is not saved…
I believe that this is the thought of many Emergent/emerging… can anything offed that is truly good be “satanic” or is all good from God alone?
So the question I have for you Rick… does God work in the lives of the unbeliever? Is what is done by an unbeliever that is offered to another God… still good or is good only from God?
Remember what Jesus stated?
So, is what is done that is good only of God and can an unbeliever do good though not knowing God? And finally was CS Lewis really saved IF he did believe what he wrote?
iggy
Has anyone read, Heaven is a Place on Earth by Mike Wittmer?
Temporal good is good no matter who performs the good deed. But, as you yourself have said in the end it is who has the Life of Christ that is utlimately what matters. I think it is useful to contemplate the idea of sonship in that through the born again experience we are adopted into the family of God. My neighbor’s children may do good deeds and in the altrueistic sense it “pleases” me to see children so engaged. However, because they are not a part of my family, their good deeds are really rather moot. They do not affect their sonship — i.e., their good deeds although good, do not make them my children. I do not **necessarily** reward their good deeds as they are not my children. Instead, it is the deeds of my own children that I am primarily concerned with and have lasting consequences and which determine if they are rewarded or chastised depending on the type of deed. And even here it is important to note that their deeds do not affect their sonship in the slightest, be they either good or bad.
Who said anything about universalism?
All our works are filthy rags without the washing of Christ’s blood. Does God work in the lives of unbelievers? Yes, the Holy Spirit tries to draw him to Christ.
The unregenerate sinner is an enemy of God, without God, and without hope in this world. The principles that Christ was teaching that you quoted cannot be summarily applied to unsaved sinners.
Interesting as I asked pretty simple and straight forward questions and neither John or Rick answered my questions… why the avoidance? Both of you gave good systematic theological answers… but not biblical answers.
So you both deny that this scripture exists?
If no man does “good” and all that is “good” is of God, if an unbeliever does good in the name of another God are they really worshiping Jesus?
It is an easy question… straight forward…
How about
iggy
“So you both deny that this scripture exists?”
Yes.
Iggy – if you suggest that those Scriptures include the unsaved, that they will receive rewards, then you are teaching works salvation. Rewars will only be given to saved men, all others will recieve the “rewards” of their sin.
Pretty straightforward.
Rick,
Works salvation… not at all… but if you are saying there is no reward and the bible states clearly otherwise… I would double check your own theology…
The bible states as I quoted…
Now, is salvation by works no… but you are still not giving a biblical answer… only a systematic theological on and still avoiding answering the question…
Which is the main point of this exercise as it was accused of the Emergents that they do not answer questions. Yet, I am asking what should be a very simple and easy bible question and you have yet to answer it… are you avoiding answering?
I can break it down more for you… but really this is very simple and you are making it much harder than need be by falling on “systematic theology” instead of looking at what the bible teaches.
Strip away Calvin, Wesley and many others… and see what the Bible teaches….
I am not accusing you of anything Rick, just that it seems that there are streams of biblical understanding the easy pet answers do not give biblical answers… but need to be fleshed out much more to have an actual answer…. and that is what I am stating in the case of many who seem to accuse emergent of avoiding answers… often the issue is that the “biblical” question is not biblical or that though it is biblical, the bible will cut the guts out of the “systematic theology” if you let the bible state what it states clearly without the lens of our relativistic theological bend.
iggy
My answer was simple. I do not believe those verses, unerstood in the context of the entire New Testament, teach that unsaved sinners can look forward to a good reward for any “good” works they do. There is no good. Filthy rags. There is none that do good. These are just a few of “Bible answers” that I believe give perspective to the ones you culled out, there are many more including:
Dead in tresspasses and sins.
The Scriptural reference to good and bad are perspective and object lessons rather than a reality for those who can only do bad.
Simple. If you believe differently, so be it.
Who is my mother and my brethren? For whosever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother and sister and mother.
Works!?
And this is the will of God, that you should believe on Him who the Father has sent.
Simple.
Iggy,
God will give to each person according to what He or she has done. However, God does not judge according to the way that we judge. We may look at a person and say that he or she is doing Good, but that person in God’s eyes is dirty, sinful, and wicked because he or she has transgressed God’s law. Good works do not change the fact that we have lied, stolen, committed adultery by looking with lust…God sees everything, all. God does not look at a pair of scales and say this person has done more good than bad. One lie is enough to transgress the whole law. Keep reading in the same passage:
Now Iggy, these verses describe what sometimes only God can see. We must understand there is a world of things that we do not know about individuals. God sees one lie as worthy of the lake of fire. He judges mens hearts, their motives, as well as their actions.
Again, Iggy, this verse is taken out of context by you. Paul was addressing Christian slaves and their Christian masters. Lets look at context again:
In the context of Christian relationships, he was dealing with a relationship between slaves and masters which was a common (about 1/3 of people were slaves) relationship. As Christian slaves, we should obey our masters (like we should the Lord) and do good work, even when it seems no one is looking. God sees all things, and he will reward the Christian slave. (or Christian employee) for doing the work no one else sees. The Master is to treat the slave well, because, as Christians, they both serve the same master.
The Bema seat, rewards and losses, is for believers. There is only one judgment seat for unbelievers, The Great White Throne Judgment. I just cannot understand how you can separate verses and suggest they teach God will reward sinners for “good works” before they are cast into the lake of fire.
It is ludicrous.
Yes, but what does any of this have to do with Jeannie C Riley?
Oh, and I never got my question about the steel guitar vs. lap steel answered. It was a steel guitar….played like a lap steel.
PB,
You are closest to the biblical answer but still missed it.
I did not take anything out of context… the context is does God judge what we do… IOW does God judge us by what we do?
But still not the biblical answer that is where I am going with this….
It seems that you guys are just avoiding giving a biblical answer and always fall into your systematic theological answers… but still not the biblical answer.
Again, does God do things in unbelievers and if they do good, is that good of God or not?
IOW, if an unbeliever does the will of God as an unbeliever so far you are saying Jesus lied and they will not be rewarded for the good they did… but whether one is “saved” or not… and do good, the bible is clear they will be rewarded for the good they do.
And part of the answer is that God does not judge as we do… so in that PB is right…
but I am amazed that it seems that the answer is fairly easy but I am not getting the biblical answer.
iggy
“but I am amazed that it seems that the answer is fairly easy but I am not getting the biblical answer.”
That you want.
The point that I am making is that we all swim in very different theological streams. So to say someone is “avoiding giving an answer” just because it is not the “accepted” answer is really not true.
When confronted with the question of “Where is Heaven if it is a place?” Todd Friel could not give an answer… so I guess he avoided the question which was based on his own assumption Heaven is a place.
A place by definition means that Heaven occupies a definite or indefinite boundary… it occupies a “space”. If Heaven is a “space” then were is it? The question that was posed to Doug Pagitt was really not thought out biblically as to define Heaven as a “place” when there is no indication that the bible states it is a place.
The other point is that of those of unbelievers and believers receiveing reward for what they did.
The issue is not of what they did, but what God did through them. If a unbelieving person does the will of the Father, they are then on the path if they continue to pursue God’s will, receives the rewards of doing God’s will…
In fact the answer was given in the first scripture I gave you.
That is the biblical answer… for we on our own may do good things but they amount to nothing if one does not persist in doing good… or IOW doing the will of the Father.
Now can one not know Jesus and do the will of the Father and if they do persist in doing His will will they receive reward?
Again the answer is in the 1st verse I gave you. If they persist, they will eventually come to a saving knowledge of Christ… and that is where PB statement of God not judging as we do came in as true… as the bible is very clear that some that say they believe are not going to be known by God for they did not persist in doing His will but sought out doing their own will instead, thus proving that in their heart of hearts they did not truly believe.
They were like Saul before he became Paul and had a zeal for godliness but lack the power within.
iggy
And the question is:
What is a Christian?
http://judahslion.blogspot.com/2008/12/what-is-christian-w-hat-is-christianity.html
You’ve lost me Iggy, from what I see – you gave a verse and interpreted it, Rick countered with a different interpretation.
Interesting that no one mentioned the blatant violation of U.S. copyright laws(s).
“Interesting that no one mentioned the blatant violation of U.S. copyright laws(s).”
Don’t worry, Keith, I have reported him and his father and the authorites informed me they have been watching that whole family for years. They’re ready to make a move.