Here’s an article/essay a friend of mine sent to me.  I’m publishing it with his permission:

There’s an essay that was brought to my attention that I think has a lot of relevance to the church in general and to the world of ADM blogging in particular. You can find the essay here at Frontline Fellowship. There is a lot of truth to what the author is saying here about the way in which pastors are treated both in their local congregations and by those who do not belong to their congregations.

The author of the essay is reviewing a book, The Wounded Minister (Dr Guy Greenfield). I’ll excerpt these two sections and let them speak for themselves. The essay (review) is helpful. The men and women who serve in pulpit positions really do struggle with this and with the proliferation of internet web pages and blogs upping the ante, it’s no wonder more and more men and women leave the ministry each year.

Who are these clergy killers? “These are not normal people, average complainers, critics and typical dissidents who are generally unhappy about life itself … they are deadly and have a knack for gathering a following of ordinary folk with common complaints and disagreements in the church. They can easily create the illusion that there are hordes of people against the pastor. They are masters at using the tyrannical they in their comments: ‘They are very unhappy about …’ or the illusive people: ‘people are saying that ….’ These are verbal instruments in the arsenal that they use to destroy a minister.”

Dr.Greenfield describes pathological antagonists/clergy killers, as persons with “a very mean spirited disposition … they are destructive. The damage that they want to inflict is intentional and deliberate. They are not out simply to disagree … they want to inflict pain and damage persons.… clergy killers are determined. They are headstrong and will stop at nothing. They may pause for a time, change strategies, even go underground to reconnoitre, but they will come back with a vengeance to continue the intimidation, networking and breaking all rules of decency to accomplish their destructive objectives. For them, their plans have priority over all other programmes of the church. These persons are deceitful … masters of manipulation, camouflage, misrepresentation and accusing others of their own atrocious deeds … experts at twisting facts. … maybe mentally disordered, but they do not yield to patience or love, nor do they honour human decency. Apparently clergy killers carry around a lot of internal pain, confusion, anger, and even rage. Spiritual leaders … become available scapegoats for this pain and confusion, which is unidentified and untreated.”

“Clergy killers are masters of intimidation, using it to violate the rules of decency and caring that most Christians try to follow. Intimidation is a powerful weapon … therefore, ministers and their supporters are easily intimidated by these persuasive and charming religious assailants. Clergy killers are experts of disguise when they see it would be to their advantage. They are able to present themselves as pious, devout and spiritual church members, who are doing their destructive work ‘for the good of the church to advance God’s Kingdom.’ They can convince naïve church members that they are raising legitimate issues. These religious monsters often hide among their allies of opportunity … they openly intimidate any opposition by making it clear that they will fight dirty and use any tactic to accomplish their goals. Gentle and peace-at- any-price church members are quickly sidelined by such threats, leaving ministers and those who support them to cope with the problem the best way they can.”

“Clinically speaking, … they may possess distinct personality disorders… anti-social, borderline paranoid, narcissistic … others have learnt to throw tantrums to get their selfish ways. They’ve learnt how to distract, confuse, lie and seduce to do harm to the vulnerable.”

“Clergy killers wound or destroy either by direct attacks or by inciting others to inflict the wounds. Sometimes they induce victims to self-destruct, by harassing them to the point of frustration and anger. … it only takes one or two in the church to create havoc and bedlam. Because these people live in denial as to their true nature, they would not see themselves in this chapter, even if they were to read it. Clergy killers have surrounded and insulated themselves with a whole array of defense mechanisms and justifications for their actions. They firmly believe that what they are doing in harming and terminating a minister is the right thing to do. For them, it is the will of God. Nevertheless, they are sick and mean people.”

What is a Pathological Antagonist?

A pathological antagonist is an intransigent person of antagonistic disposition.

1. “The arguments of a pathological antagonist are usually found in little or terribly misrepresented evidence … quibbling over petty details, offering strong proof of irrelevant points … exaggerating the position of one’s opponent … making an accusation that cannot be disproved and then claiming that this makes it true … outright lying or falsification. An antagonist, in his attempt to make the kill, will take certain facts and so twist them that they are blatantly false when presented. In time he convinces himself that his twisted facts are true.”

2. Pathological antagonists are ‘”hyper-sensitive to any word or action, even trivial oversights, so that he takes these things as a personal attack and responds aggressively.”

3. “The pathological antagonist is never satisfied. His demands are insatiable. No amount of accommodation on the ministers part will ever suffice. Attempts at appeasement will not calm him down, but will encourage him to make more demands. … he is persistent and unstoppable.”

4. “The pathological antagonist will lead a campaign of attack on the minister … not trying to give constructive criticism … his goal is nothing short of control, no matter what it may cost the minister or the church. The antagonist is so full of rage that he feels compelled to attack the enemy (the minister) until he is destroyed (terminated and eliminated from the scene).”

5. “This person probably has a God problem. He feels some deep-seated anger towards God for some reason out of his past experiences. Because it is difficult to show anger directly towards God, the pathological antagonist chooses the minister, the ‘man of God’, as his target. Sometimes this anger is guilt-driven (possibly due to some hidden sin) … a smokescreen to cover his own moral indiscretions.”

6. “The attacking behaviour of a pathological antagonist is selfish in nature … this person is rarely interested in authentic spiritual goals. If one rationale no longer works to his advantage, he will devise another … his stated reasons for opposition are a ruse for his own hidden agenda. What he really wants is power, control, status and authority.”

7. “The attacks … are for destruction rather than construction. The antagonists’ actions divide the church; they do not pull the people together.

In the Pulpit and Pew Project at Duke University, Hoge and Wenger did some research and wrote a paper detailing the reasons why ‘numerous pastors’ are leaving church ministry. The paper, from 2003, is insightful and contains wonderful tables at the end. They write,

The most commonly mentioned motivation was “an opportunity came for new ministry.” This factor was not always the only one in pushing the decision, since a highly satisfied local church pastor may not be likely to leave even if an opportunity came for new ministry. We need to see it as often acting in combination with other factors, making the task of discerning its importance a difficult one. In any event, it is lower as a motivation for the Methodists and Assemblies of God than for the others, and it is highest for the Missouri Synod pastors.

The second most common comment was that the denomination was not supportive, or that there was conflict with denominational officials. It is similar across denominations. The third most common was that the minister was burned out, discouraged, stressed, or overworked, a feeling voiced by ministers in all the denominations. The fourth–needs of children and family–was slightly higher for the Presbyterians than for others. The fifth–conflicts with church members—and the sixth–doctrinal conflicts over specific issues –occurred similarly in all denominations.

(This work was later published in book form and titled Pastors in TransitionHere.)

It seems to me that armchair discernment, then, is not limited to the online types. They are everywhere in the church. John the apostle did warn that a certain type of malicious person would come from within the church and Paul makes warnings to Timothy for how to deal with such rebels. I am not saying that all preachers are innocent, nor am I saying that all accusations are false. All I am saying is that if this type of ‘ministry’ is so damaging in the local church, to local pastors, (and the repercussions and collateral damage are massive), then how much more damaging is it when you have an online audience? If I am reading the author of the paper correctly, nothing good comes out of this type of ‘work.’ It damages too many people, not to mention the pastor, his family, his children, his wife. It is an insidious evil that is not meant to build up the church, but to destroy it, sidetrack it, and utterly ruin it’s effective witness in a community.

What I have learned personally about such people is that normally the issue is one of control. That’s all. Pure and simple. Being in the public eye is hard enough as it is. Being a local church pastor, in a small or large church, is terribly difficult. It’s downright terrifying when the worst critics of the pastor are not those outside the church, but those inside it.

Seeking justice, mercy, and faithfulness amidst persecution from within.

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101 Comments(+Add)

1   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
January 7th, 2009 at 7:08 pm

If people haven’t served in a ministry, I don’t think they really understand how their action can affect ministers and their families. I can speak from my own personal experience in ministry and from growing up in a pastor’s house, that there are just some people who make pastor’s lives hell.

I think a big part of it is that there’s just a vulnerability when you’re ministering to people. You are constantly opening yourself up to rejection in one form or another. Even preaching a sermon is standing up in front of people who will evaluate you in some way. It can be very trying.

There was a song by the Vigilantes of Love (Bill Mallonee’s group) called Skin where he talked about opening yourself up to rejection. I always found it very accurate. He compares the rejection that Van Gogh felt when he cut off his ear to ministering to people. The one chorus says:

now look if you’re gonna come around here
and say those sort of things
you gotta take a few on the chin
yeah you’re talking about sin and redemption
well you better wear your thickest skin
sometimes you can’t please everyone
sometimes you can’t please anyone at all
sew your heart onto your sleeve
and wait for the ax to fall

2   Aaron    
January 7th, 2009 at 7:23 pm

Out of curiosity (as I have no experience in leadership ministry yet), just how difficult and/or disastrous could it be to ask the troublemakers to leave the church (with Elder consent, of course)?

What are some common solutions to dealing with or removing these problems or troublemakers?

3   Neil    
January 7th, 2009 at 9:07 pm

1. “The arguments of a pathological antagonist are usually found in little or terribly misrepresented evidence … quibbling over petty details, offering strong proof of irrelevant points … exaggerating the position of one’s opponent … making an accusation that cannot be disproved and then claiming that this makes it true … outright lying or falsification. An antagonist, in his attempt to make the kill, will take certain facts and so twist them that they are blatantly false when presented. In time he convinces himself that his twisted facts are true.”

I thought the essay rather extreme, but

petty details

irrelevant points

exaggerated positions

twisted facts

all reminded me of a lot of the accusations against Bell and Warren, and Wright, and Kimball, and others.

4   nc    
January 7th, 2009 at 10:19 pm

Aaron,

I think pastoral patience is key, but as soon as you get a sense that someone is a “watch dog” or a self-appointed critic start documenting and communicating with your leadership your experiences. It would be important too to make sure that you clarify that such documenting and communication is done for the sake of accountability and clarity.

I’d also check your church membership covenant to make sure there is clear language about the freedom of the organization’s leadership to “excuse” people from the assembly.

And after making sure you’ve documented clear pastoral engagement, open communication, etc. you can whip out the Titus language about warning and expelling divisive people while demonstrating that you have exhibited patience above and beyond the language of the Titus text…

hope that helps.

5   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 7th, 2009 at 10:21 pm

But first check their giving record, that may help direct you between restoration or annihilation. :cool:

6   nc    
January 7th, 2009 at 10:22 pm

I would agree with the OP.

My experience in churches all through growing up as a PK and in ministry myself is that congregations really need to sometimes be protected from themselves…and that congregationalist ecclesiology needs to have clear checks on the “majority will” of the gathered people who, as a whole, cannot devote their time and will to the shaping of the ministry of the church.

simply put:

sheep don’t lead shepherds. they don’t command them. shepherds don’t work “for” them. Shepherds may serve the sheep but they are not their servants.

7   nc    
January 7th, 2009 at 10:23 pm

#5

Actually, I’ve really enjoyed telling a big donor who used that fact to try to avoid church discipline that “we don’t need or want his 5 dollar check and neither did Jesus” if that was his strategy with his spiritual leaders.

:)

8   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 7th, 2009 at 10:25 pm

If he is a 100 million dollar lottery winner I will gladly dsimiss all the other members and start all over again with just him. :)

9   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 7th, 2009 at 10:28 pm

Somehow when I read the word pathological I immediately thought of Joe Martino. I don’t know why, I just did. :roll:

10   nc    
January 7th, 2009 at 10:30 pm

8

yeah, if he gives it ALL to the local church since that’s dirty money and shouldn’t be used by only one person, but redeemed by the ministry of the Church.

;)

11   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
January 7th, 2009 at 11:06 pm

You know, Rick, somehow I don’t happen to find this a subject that is all that funny nor do I think joking about people’s giving to be all that humorous either. Sometimes, it is OK to just read and not comment if there is nothing particularly constructive to say.

Forgive me for saying so, but the issues dealt with in this post, and the linked essay, are serious issues in churches even if the author (of the essay) does engage in a wee bit of hyperbole to make his point.

You are entitled to your levity, but I’m not all that impressed. :(

12   Joe    http://www.joemartino.name
January 7th, 2009 at 11:13 pm

#9
Probably b/c of your meds

13   John Hughes    
January 7th, 2009 at 11:20 pm

NC: Shepherds may serve the sheep but they are not their servants.

NC, perphaps I did not understand your point but pastors **are** to be servants as are we all.

John 13:14 – “If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet.

14   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 8th, 2009 at 12:04 am

Somebody needs to complain at Mars Hill seriously.

Good Post, Chris L. We have all seen these things in the church.

I hope, really, that you are not trying to draw a line to ADM’s though, for you folks do the same here…no level of denial will cover up for that!

15   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 8th, 2009 at 12:07 am

Sorry Jerry, my comment were directed at someone else and not meant to offend you.

“Sometimes, it is OK to just read and not comment if there is nothing particularly constructive to say.”

I believe that would probably cut the comment section significantly, even when some are serious. I’ll run my comments by you first. :cool:

16   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 12:39 am

I hope, really, that you are not trying to draw a line to ADM’s though, for you folks do the same here…no level of denial will cover up for that!

Are you really this obtuse?

17   nc    
January 8th, 2009 at 12:53 am

John H.

I would say to wash another’s feet is to “serve” them, but does not make you their servant.

That text is important, but there are other texts about the role of leaders who are to “rule”. Scripture commands the people of a church to submit to their spiritual leaders and to not make their work a burden.

A servant’s heart, full of compassion and care does not mean congregations “run” their leaders.

It just doesn’t.

sheep don’t lead shepherds.

18   nc    
January 8th, 2009 at 12:55 am

RE: 16

apparently the answer is “yes”.

19   Ron B    http://ronsbloviating.blogspot.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 1:02 am

RE:18
This sums it up well (from the article).

“Clergy killers wound or destroy either by direct attacks or by inciting others to inflict the wounds. Sometimes they induce victims to self-destruct, by harassing them to the point of frustration and anger. … it only takes one or two in the church to create havoc and bedlam. Because these people live in denial as to their true nature, they would not see themselves in this chapter, even if they were to read it. Clergy killers have surrounded and insulated themselves with a whole array of defense mechanisms and justifications for their actions. They firmly believe that what they are doing in harming and terminating a minister is the right thing to do. For them, it is the will of God. Nevertheless, they are sick and mean people.”

20   john b    
January 8th, 2009 at 1:50 am

Oft times it’s the levity that gets us through the tough stuff.

21   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
January 8th, 2009 at 8:16 am

Rick 15 is apples and oranges and you know it.I’m not talking about censorship but knowing when and when not to be a joker. I wasn’t offended, I just didn’t think it was funny or timely.

Jerry

22   Eugene Roberts    http://eugeneroberts.wordpress.com
January 8th, 2009 at 8:28 am

I had the “privilege” to deal with PA’s in my short time in ministry and it is extremely tough. Lying awake at night thinking how to address the problem, answering questions from other members that didn’t have questions before the PA’s got to them, that turning tummy before you call them to discuss their newest issue, explaining their “big issue” with the elders… It leaves you emotionally drained and then you realise it is Friday and you have to prepare for Sunday…

I have found the following to be helpful:
1. Never give a person that complains about a previous pastor/church any position of authority. They are most likely a PA.
2. Never take them on in front of other church members (except elders)
3. When discussing their issue with them, take an elder with you. They WILL twist your words
4. Don’t try to explain your position on the matter to them – they’re only listening for ammunition. Rather just listen with patience and tell them you are sorry they feel that way. Pray with them asking for God’s peace to be with them and leave.
5. If they continue, ask the elders to deal with it. When the PA’s realise that they are dealing with church members(elders) and that they are not up against one person but the assembly they’ll either leave or calm down (for a while anyway).

I would also want to ask you guys not to write any negative stuff about pastors of churches (like Paul Washer). We all say some stupid stuff from time to time. We don’t need it broadcasted across the globe. This site’s aim is to counter the arguments/attacks of the ADM’s, not participate in their ways.

23   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 8th, 2009 at 9:14 am

I would also want to ask you guys not to write any negative stuff about pastors of churches (like Paul Washer). We all say some stupid stuff from time to time. We don’t need it broadcasted across the globe. This site’s aim is to counter the arguments/attacks of the ADM’s, not participate in their ways.

Eugene, I agree.

Ken Silva is a Pastor. Is he included in this admonition? SJ Walker is a Sunday School Teacher (and a very good one) Is He included? No, none of these folks are included because if it were not for the Pastors and Teachers and Radio Show Hosts and Apologists out there, This site would have no one to attack and no one to smear and the site would dry up and die.

This site is part of the problem, not the solution when it attacks people. It is hypocrisy at its peak. It is a great example of promoting PA, not getting rid of it.

24   chris    
January 8th, 2009 at 9:20 am

Great article…

I know all to well the damage created by “well-meaning” and “we’re concerned about the church” types.

It doesn’t matter if its PD or The Truth Project whenever your/our agenda is anything other than Jesus’ the writing is on the wall.

25   chris    
January 8th, 2009 at 9:23 am

This site is part of the problem, not the solution when it attacks people. It is hypocrisy at its peak. It is a great example of promoting PA, not getting rid of it.

“hypocrisy at it’s peak”

Is there a stronger word than “obtuse”?

26   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
January 8th, 2009 at 9:27 am

Ken Silva is a Pastor. Is he included in this admonition? SJ Walker is a Sunday School Teacher (and a very good one) Is He included? No, none of these folks are included because if it were not for the Pastors and Teachers and Radio Show Hosts and Apologists out there, This site would have no one to attack and no one to smear and the site would dry up and die.

This site is part of the problem, not the solution when it attacks people. It is hypocrisy at its peak. It is a great example of promoting PA, not getting rid of it.

Come on, get your head out of your butt!

Using this reasoning, if you were walking down the street, saw a man attacking a woman, and you pushed the man away to protect the woman, you’d be attacking the man.

You live in your own little fantasy land…

27   Joe    http://www.joemartino.name
January 8th, 2009 at 9:30 am

Ken Silva is a Pastor.

That brings up an interesting point: What makes a pastor a pastor? BTW John, I’m a pastor. I’ll look for your admonishment to yourself on your blog later today. Got some weddings coming up, visitation. All the good stuff.

28   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 8th, 2009 at 9:38 am

There is nothing wrong with using names as long as you avoid labels, hyperbole, and personal invectives that divert attention from the issue and feed the sharks.

Ken and Ingrid are infamous for creative personal adjectives that promote themselves and do not address the issue directly, that is surely a problem and unchristian.

Rob Bell, for example, is an elder, a pastor, a Father, a son, and a fellow believer in Jesus Christ. You disagree with his teachings? Go for it with Scripture, logic, and even strong and serious language. But leave the man himself, his motives, and his appearance alone, unless you are stooping into the same fleshly chasm that others seem to abide.

Using the person’s name helps in identifying what you are speaking about as long as you do it with a level of respect and Christian maturity.

29   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 8th, 2009 at 9:44 am

Joe, I have never attacked you on my blog. You, on the other hand, wrote an entirely spurious article about me, filled with lies.

30   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 8th, 2009 at 9:46 am

John, my friend, you and Joe bring up an important point, one that continues to completely undermine the integrity of the discernment ministry and those who proudly proclaim Sola Scriptura. No one, and I mean no one, who has discernment credentials and profess to hold the Biblical offices in high regard, has reproved Ingrid for her unbiblical role in rebuking, criticizing, reproving, demeaning, and correcting ordained elders and pastors.

If we really believe the Scriptures it sometimes means taking unpopular and unpleasant stands. All the words of Ken, Chris R., you, and others are compromised by your continued acquiescence of your Biblical mandate to correct someone’s unordained wife and have her step back into a more Biblical role within the church at large.

It remains a log in the discernment eye.

31   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 8th, 2009 at 9:50 am

Rick,

Ingrid’s church (elders, Pastors) should be the ones doing this, of at all. I do not know Ingrid (personally). And, believe it or not, I have disagreed with her publicly (as I do with Rob Bell).

32   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
January 8th, 2009 at 9:58 am

Ingrid’s church (elders, Pastors) should be the ones doing this, of at all.

Bwahahahah…bwahahaha!!!!

Seriously, now your supporting local church governance!

So it’s OK for Ken and Ingrid to attack whomever they please, when they aren’t on any of these pastors’ boards, but for anyone to say they’re wrong suddenly becomes an issue of their local church?

Typical legalist response. The rules only apply to me when I want them to, but the rules I make up for you are God-ordained.

33   corey    
January 8th, 2009 at 10:00 am

PB 31 -

So I assume that this means you will be allowing the elders of Rob Bell’s, rick Warren’s, etc. etc. etc. churches to rebuke them?

I mean, you wouldn’t want to hold a double standard.

34   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
January 8th, 2009 at 10:03 am

PB,

Phil’s got a point. Can’t argue with you Phil.

jerry

35   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 8th, 2009 at 10:03 am

With that logic Bell’s elder should be his accountability. Everyone has disagreed with everyone at some point, that is skirting the issue. It isn’t what or even how Ingrid says what she does, it is by what Biblical authority can she take on ordained pastors throughout the world and correct and rebuke them?

The answer: She operates unbiblicly and is supported as such by those who generally hold to her views. You have brought upthe fact that many will not confront Bell on issues, well the same is for Ingrid (she is not the only woman that does this). By all literal interpretations of the written Scriptures, even if you believe in women pastors, Ingrid is an unordained wife and mother who has taken it upon herself to fill the capacity of “elder at large” and rebuke whoever she pleases.

That alone reveals the extent of compromise when the issue becomes the targets and not obedience to the Word. The emporer has no clothes.

36   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 8th, 2009 at 10:05 am

I am simply discerning their publicly published works, recordings, videos, etc.

#33 Rick Warrens elders wouldn’t dare, for he has published very clearly what to do with dissenters. Rob Bell’s followers are in a philosophical induced haze and they do not know which way is up. To them it does not matter; for only the rich who do not give away their money to the poor are going to hell.

37   corey    
January 8th, 2009 at 10:09 am

So what are the rules for discerning when local church authority matters and when it doesn’t. Oh I know! When you agree with them!

38   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
January 8th, 2009 at 10:11 am

I am simply discerning their publicly published works, recordings, videos, etc.

#33 Rick Warrens elders wouldn’t dare, for he has published very clearly what to do with dissenters. Rob Bell’s followers are in a philosophical induced haze and they do not know which way is up. To them it does not matter; for only the rich who do not give away their money to the poor are going to hell.

Legalist Rule #2: If you can’t refute an argument, change the subject and start throwing more baseless accusations.

39   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 8th, 2009 at 10:12 am

#35

There is a difference, here however.

By the way, Ingrid is not the only woman in this role of discerner. Berit Kjos and several others- are in a discernment ministry.

Their role is different, Rick, than that of a Pastor. They are not overseers over a pastor or a church. This does not remove them from the role of being prophets, or of having the gift of discernment. There are many gifts, they are not gender specific, but some gifts within the auspices of the local church are regulated according to Gender.

I argue that anyone can do the ministry of evangelism, discernment, prophesy- etc. We are talking apples and oranges here; local church ministry vs. global discernment. One is clearly spelled out. If Ingrid was trying to gain rule over her local church, was elected elder, had control over the pastor….I would have a scriptural problem.

And when Ingrid or any of these others are wrong in my opinion, I address it.

40   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 8th, 2009 at 10:13 am

Corey,

You are my personal pathological antagonist!

;)

41   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 8th, 2009 at 10:15 am

John – the Scriptures are clear, elders have authority over the church and elders correct and rebuke other elders or else you have a free for all. Your position does not make sense, Ingrid has even asked for some pastors to hand in their resignations.

And the gift of discerning of spirits doesn’t depend of the secular press for guidance.

42   Joe    http://www.joemartino.name
January 8th, 2009 at 10:19 am

Joe, I have never attacked you on my blog. You, on the other hand, wrote an entirely spurious article about me, filled with lies.

More veracity issues for you my friend.

43   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 8th, 2009 at 10:20 am

#41
Rick,
I do not feel that this is a global church issue. She does not have rule over a man (I do not know about her home life ) as far as the local church.

Joyce Myers- I have a problem. She is a ‘Pastor’. I have issues with that.

Ingrid-She is not a Pastor. Nor is she an Elder. Nor does she have any official role overseeing men in her local church (that I know of).

Again, I treat Ingrid and others all the same way. If they say something biblically off base in public or in a public forum I will address it.

It is not a global church issue. It is a local church issue.

44   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 8th, 2009 at 10:23 am

You are blind to this issue. So any wife can rebuke the pastor of the church down the street publicly in the grocery store? My wife can rebuke you and call you names in the store, in front of your wife and kids? But, of course, she is not taking any “rule” over you.

It’s just goofy and unbiblical.

45   nc    
January 8th, 2009 at 10:26 am

Formally, Ingrid has no title.
Materially, she acts along the lines of and swims in the arena of issues that are the province of spiritual authority.

If she’s calling for resignations of local church pastors, I don’t get how she justifies it. and I don’t get how supporters can too, especially if they have a congregationalist ecclesiology that sees the local church as the fundamental unit of expression of the church–autonomous, etc. etc.

I’m an egalitarian, but if we follow Rick’s line of thought you just can’t get around a woman rebuking a man….in any circumstance with respect to spiritual authority/teaching/doctrine.

sorry…it’s a big case of hypocrisy…

46   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 8th, 2009 at 10:27 am

BTW – why is the discerning of spirits limited to attacking and confronting doctrinal issues? What about using that gift to help identify depression issues, or suicidal spirits, or anger issues, or a host of other more redemptive purposes?

47   nc    
January 8th, 2009 at 10:28 am

btw,

“global church issue” vs. “local church issue”…

Scripture, please.

I can tell you that “prophetic ministry” is clearly described as being under the authority of elders…i.e. it’s a local church ministry.

48   Eugene Roberts    http://eugeneroberts.wordpress.com
January 8th, 2009 at 10:29 am

If I knew how to back peddle I would do it now!
Pastorboy, you are using something I said being concerned for the well being of a pastor and creating another rabbit trail and don’t like it. Please stop.
Perhaps I should word my concern/request differently. I don’t think we should use something that a pastor said in a sermon to put him/her in a bad light. Criticise the content but be sure to upheld and protect that pastor’s position and integrity. I felt the post about Paul Washer crossed the line and made him sound . . . well stupid. Ken and Ingrid often acts like PA’s and I think the content of their accusations should be addressed like CRN.Info does.
How’s that for back peddling?

49   nc    
January 8th, 2009 at 10:31 am

With regard to Ken Silva being a pastor…maybe he should just worry about his own bible study.

Same idea…local church, etc.

There is no such thing as a “pastor at large”…unless of course you and he believe that he is really an “apostle” in the 1st century sense…

but even then he has issues because he can’t just go and start directing churches he didn’t “plant”….

50   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 10:32 am

PB,

Would you consider Ingrid doing a “ministry”?

iggy

51   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 8th, 2009 at 10:32 am

Most of us understood your point, Gene.

52   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 8th, 2009 at 10:35 am

NC, Rick
Thats the point…they are not directing churches…they are discerning what the believe to be false teaching, as I do.

We are ALL called to do that….Unfortunately, with the new technology false teaching can be spread worldwide through different media, and we must discern this false teaching through the same media.

If that were happening in a local grocery store to a pastor down the street…yeah…I could see that. But that is apples and oranges, here.

53   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 8th, 2009 at 10:36 am

#50
I do not understand the question.

54   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
January 8th, 2009 at 10:38 am

Joyce Myers- I have a problem. She is a ‘Pastor’. I have issues with that.

Actually, I don’t even know if she calls herself a pastor. She pretty much functions as a traveling evangelist. I don’t think she oversees a local congregation. I could be wrong, though.

In any case, Ingrid has pretty declared herself pastor for many churches she has no association with. This is wrong whether a man or a woman does it.

55   Eugene Roberts    http://eugeneroberts.wordpress.com
January 8th, 2009 at 10:40 am

Pastorboy,
I want to say this in the nicest way I can… You frustrate me immensly when you create these rabbit trails and take the thread away from the OP. Sometimes you add a very important respective to the coversation but then other times you just say stuff that derails the thread. This is one of the derailing times.

56   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 10:40 am

Ingrid’s church (elders, Pastors) should be the ones doing this, of at all.

You really crack me up PB… perfect example of your relativistic theological view… it has a sliding scale of self justification a mile wide for yourself and friends, but those flesh and blood “representatives” Satan are judged and condemned.

Again, you never answered my question from another thread… what are your thoughts on Dewaay stating that doctrinally he and RW agree and that it is only ministerial style that he disagrees with RW over? And I have asked this at least 3 or 4 time with no answer….

Dewaay is one of the biggest critics of RW… and according to him… he has not doctrinal disagreement with RW… yet you seem to have a lot of doctrinal disagreement with RW so much disagree with Dewaay on a lot of stuff…

iggy

57   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 10:44 am

PB,

#50
I do not understand the question.

You don’t know what a ministry is?

Is SoL a Ministry? When Ingrid does a radio show is she ministering to others? It is a simple question…

iggy

58   Bo Diaz    
January 8th, 2009 at 10:45 am

It seems pastorboy has the same problem with application of scripture as he does with interpretation of it.

Ingrid assumes a role that supersedes that of elder and pastor, no problem at all.

Rob Bell and Rick Warren function in the role of pastor and elder, oops problem.

Of course, if Pastorboy were to actually follow the principles he articulated here and allowed the local church to govern itself then he’d have to give up the acclaim of his fellow unBiblical discerners. He’s nothing more than a latter day Pharisee.

59   Nathanael    http://borrowedbreath.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 10:59 am

Rick,

What about using that gift [discernment] to help identify depression issues, or suicidal spirits, or anger issues, or a host of other more redemptive purposes?

Amen!

I know you don’t put a whole lot of stock in what other people think or write or say ;)
but Oswald Chambers once said, and I’m paraphrasing but putting it in in quotes, “The main purpose of discernment is intercession.”

And I think that is spot on. Rarely do these ADM’s call something into the light and then intercede for that person.

60   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
January 8th, 2009 at 11:00 am

To get back on point, I think that the main issue with antagonists, either in churches or of the ADM variety, is control. They want it, they feel afraid when they sense they are losing it, and they will do anything to keep hold of it.

A pastor who understands the heart of God understands that Christ will protect the church, and that it’s his job to work with Christ, not run out in front of Him looking for heresy under every rock. In fact when pastors do this, they are most likely neglecting their members rather than actually helping them. As for members who think they are to be watchdogs of their pastor, unfortunately my experience is that usually these people need to go elsewhere, but they usually won’t without taking as many people with them as they can.

Antagonists from both camps are operating out of the same spirit of fear, though.

61   Nathanael    http://borrowedbreath.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 11:02 am

I found it online:

March 31st.

“My Utmost For His Highest”

“If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and He shall give him Life for them that sin not unto death.” 1 John 5:16

“If we are not heedful of the way the Spirit of God works in us, we will become spiritual hypocrites. We see where other folks are failing, and we turn our discernment into the gibe of criticism instead of into intercession on their behalf. The revelation is made to us not through the acuteness of our minds, but by the direct penetration of the Spirit of God, and if we are not heedful of the source of the revelation, we will become criticizing centres and forget that God says – “. . . he shall ask, and He shall give him life for them that sin not unto death.” Take care lest you play the hypocrite by spending all your time trying to get others right before you worship God yourself.

“One of the subtlest burdens God ever puts on us as saints is this burden of discernment concerning other souls. He reveals things in order that we may take the burden of these souls before Him and form the mind of Christ about them, and as we intercede on His line, God says He will give us “life for them that sin not unto death.” It is not that we bring God into touch with our minds, but that we rouse ourselves until God is able to convey His mind to us about the one for whom we intercede.

“Is Jesus Christ seeing of the travail of His soul in us? He cannot unless we are so identified with Himself that we are roused up to get His view about the people for whom we pray. May we learn to intercede so whole-heartedly that Jesus Christ will be abundantly satisfied with us as intercessors.”

62   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 8th, 2009 at 11:11 am

#61.

Amen.

Lets shut this site down, and when we feel like being PA’s, lets pray for those we desire to criticize.

Eugene,
The Rabbit trail was a question asked by Freuh and when I responded, others jumped in.

Iggy,
Most of my comments have been about Seeker Sensitive, (Regarding RW) and to a degree that affects or is affected by doctrine. I would agree with about 95% of RW’s doctrine, but I think His methods are wrong.

Now back to the regularly scheduled OP.

63   Nathanael    http://borrowedbreath.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 11:14 am

PB,
I’ve read prayers offered up on this website.

Just sayin’

64   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 11:15 am

Nathanael

And I think that is spot on. Rarely do these ADM’s call something into the light and then intercede for that person.

In fact ODM’s and ADM’s mock those who pray for them and say things like :

At the end of the day, the body of Christ on this earth looked like a pack of ravenous dogs. How Pathetic. Iggy closes it out with more false piety/hypocrisy calling for a day of prayer for Ken

Though not one ODM/ADM has ever called for prayer for their “enemies” PB calls me a ravenous dog and am pathetic as well as displaying false piety and hyposcosy for calling other to pray blessings on Ken and Ingrid.

Talk about hypocrosy…

I also think you might need to change your name a bit…

Paster Boy: A person who copies other peoples’ HTML source code and pastes it into their own Web page in an effort to look like they know what they’re doing.

iggy

65   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 11:15 am

Lets shut this site down

We’ll do so as soon as the ADM/PA’s repent and stop attacking the church…

and when we feel like being PA’s, lets pray for those we desire to criticize.

Agreed…

66   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 11:16 am

Man spell check really let me down…. :lol:

67   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 8th, 2009 at 11:17 am

#63

Great. Hope they were genuine.

By the fruit (in abundance) I would say that we on all of our sites and commentaries are guilty of being PA’s and we would do well to spend the time we do on this site and others in intecessory prayer.

Just sayin.

PS…Me first.

68   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 11:18 am

PB,

Once again I will ask you this simple question…

Is SoL a Ministry? When Ingrid does a radio show is she ministering to others? It is a simple question…

iggy

69   Nathanael    http://borrowedbreath.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 11:19 am

I don’t think I’m a PA on my site…but I guess part of being a PA is that you don’t know you are.

Hmmm…

70   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 11:22 am

Also PB I would like an apology for your words I quoted in #64… that was really nasty and uncalled for by you.

iggy

71   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
January 8th, 2009 at 11:23 am

By the fruit (in abundance) I would say that we on all of our sites and commentaries are guilty of being PA’s and we would do well to spend the time we do on this site and others in intecessory prayer.

Sorry, but I don’t buy this relativistic drivel. I’m sure no one here is guiltless, but there is clearly one side doing the attacking and one side being attacked in the vast majority of cases. If we just say, “well, we’re all wrong” nothing will ever change.

Legalism is a cancer and it needs to be dealt with, otherwise it is fatal.

72   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 11:26 am

Phil,

Isn’t it interesting that two of us caught PB in his relativistic theology?

It should make PB think about things a bit… but…

iggy

73   Joe    http://www.joemartino.name
January 8th, 2009 at 11:33 am

I’d love to hear PB’s answer to Iggy’s question.

74   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 11:39 am

Notice PB gets really quite when he has to really think about an answer? shhhhh be verrrry verrry quiet…

iggy

75   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
January 8th, 2009 at 12:05 pm

To get back on point, I think that the main issue with antagonists, either in churches or of the ADM variety, is control. They want it, they feel afraid when they sense they are losing it, and they will do anything to keep hold of it.

In my experience, this is dead on the mark.

76   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
January 8th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

Most of my comments have been about Seeker Sensitive, (Regarding RW) and to a degree that affects or is affected by doctrine. I would agree with about 95% of RW’s doctrine, but I think His methods are wrong.

Nevermind that Paul said, “I become all things to all people in order that I might save some.”

Yes, methods matter. *Shrugs*

77   Bo Diaz    
January 8th, 2009 at 12:21 pm

To get back on point, I think that the main issue with antagonists, either in churches or of the ADM variety, is control. They want it, they feel afraid when they sense they are losing it, and they will do anything to keep hold of it.

Not to mention its the very definition of worldliness.

78   Bo Diaz    
January 8th, 2009 at 12:22 pm

Methods are theology. Only an evangelical would try to draw some kind of disconnect between belief and practice.

79   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 12:23 pm

PB,

Many of us disagree with RW on his methods… but you call him a heretic over his methods…

Paul stated something you should consider.

Phil 1: 15. It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice, 19. for I know that through your prayers and the help given by the Spirit of Jesus Christ, what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.

iggy

80   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 8th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

Nathaniel – I also wonder why those who claim to have the gift of discerning of spirits never discern some evil spirits in themselves? Never pride, never judgment, never malice, never hatred, never causing strife, and so on and so on. They never discern anything in themselves except a champion spirit for God.

Curious, don’t ya think?

81   Nathanael    http://borrowedbreath.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

Who was it that said the best sermon clearly states “Me too”?

Did I read that in one of the comments here?

I think the bottom line is grace. When I begin to grasp even a little bit how much grace is poured out on me moment-by-moment, day-in-day-out, without reserve or diminishment, I MUST BE ABLE TO EXTEND THAT SAME GRACE TO YOU.

It doesn’t mean I let you go on in your sin and pat your back and say “Everything’s alright.” But the posture of my heart is one of humility and love because I’ve caught a glimpse of just how much I am loved.

82   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 8th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

* Discerment without love is hate.
* Discerment without redemption is judgment.
* Discernment without humility is self righteousness.
* Discernment without grace is unchristian.
* Discernment without Jesus is humanism.

83   Nathanael    http://borrowedbreath.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 1:07 pm

Rick,
Do you write poetry?
Serious question.

Sometimes your gift with words is quite impressive.
#82 is a prime example.

Well said.

84   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

I don’t know how many times I state I have issues with RW, somethings in the emerging church, stated I disagree with things Tony Jones and Doug Pagitt have stated and on and on…

It seems that often I am too busy correcting outright lies about them I do not have time to address some of these issues as I wish. Yet, I have stood against Universalism and how some stand on homosexuality.. and yet I am always wrong… according to PB and others like him…

Some time I would love to have Ken or Ingrid or PB fly me out to their church so I can critique it with the standard they set on others… now wouldn’t that be fun?

iggy

85   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 1:11 pm

And sometime I would like an apology and answer to my question from PB… I guess he must be off somewhere doing “ministry” or something.

iggy

86   nc    
January 8th, 2009 at 1:11 pm

#62

Amen! Let’s shut down the ODM sites and then there will be no reason for this site.

87   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 1:12 pm

That was awesome Rick…

igs

88   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 8th, 2009 at 1:16 pm

Nate – I write music which includes poetic lyrics. I play piano, trumpet, and guitar and I have led worship music as well.

Thanks for the kind words. I have issues with some teachings as well, but I cannot justify unchristian words and behavior to confront the doctrine of others. In Christ, the end does not justify the means, and the spectacle of the cross must always be the example and prism through which we interact with others.

A very difficult proposition, but impossible when it is ignored.

89   nc    
January 8th, 2009 at 1:17 pm

RE: 52

FORMALLY, they are not directing churches. That means, PB, they don’t have an official title at the local church in question.

MATERIALLY, they are attempting to direct churches, ad hoc leadership whose material, commentary, etc. is often used to stir up people with misinformation and outright lies that ends up undermining leaders of congregations.

The ODM’s don’t have to be there to clean up the mess they make and they have no vested interest in the process in any given church they may poison.

They also are beyond accountability within the contexts that they are making doctrinal pronouncements over (i.e. exercising teaching authority, i.e. exercising spiritual authority)

Sheeeesh…and you people say you think the RCC is bad.

Talk about a disgusting, arrogant self-appointed magisterium.

90   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
January 8th, 2009 at 1:22 pm

If we are proper missionaries we will work ourselves out of a job. True.

Nathanael, grace. Very nice!!! Good job!!!!

91   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 8th, 2009 at 1:23 pm

And on SoL there are also National Enquirer-esque posts that re-report on the moral failures of believers, almost always without a call for prayer, just a self righteous voyeuristic ambiance. I have yet to see a report when any of these people are restored.

I am not sure I have ever seen a restoration post, and if there was, it was the proverbial “nickel”.

Discernment without restoration is satanic.

92   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 1:24 pm

nc,

As in the case of Dan Kimball and Ken Silva… though Dan showed undeniable proof and answered all the questions for Ken and others… Dan was still told he was a heretic… there was no reconciliation or forgiveness for him… he was labeled, judged and condemned… and no Grace, mercy or love was given nor any concern for Dan as a person…

PB claims to be a reconciliationist… yet he promotes people and ministries that do not care for reconciliation at all… they care only that they are right in their own eyes and in the eyes of their peers…

iggy

93   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 1:31 pm

Most ODM/ADM seem to act more as Overseers/Bishop than display discernment… and that is strange as I see that some of their own churches suffer from their leadership… others seem to promote works and hide behind Luther quoting Paul… yet their words and actions do not match “salvation by grace”.

iggy

94   nc    
January 8th, 2009 at 2:02 pm

93:

EXACTLY! They function like bishops of non-geographic regions/dioceses.

Like “bishops-at-large”…

or…just maybe…

POPES.

hmmmmm….

ironic, indeed.

95   Joe    http://www.joemartino.name
January 8th, 2009 at 2:05 pm

Re: 192
I know I am going to go against some of the wishes and desires of friends I have on this site by what I am about to say, but it was Ken’s treatment of Dan Kimball and his refusal to allow Dan’s words to be Dan’s words that caused me to really begin considering Ken a false teacher.

96   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 2:28 pm

nc,

John MacArthur is the New Pope of the Lordship Salvation people… what he says is never wrong and infallible…

iggy

97   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 2:29 pm

Joe,

Sadly I agree as that was when I realized that Ken was not sincere…

iggy

98   John Hughes    
January 8th, 2009 at 2:41 pm

Rick: I play piano, trumpet, and guitar

Concurrently? I have a mental image and I’m not afraid to use it! :-)

99   Nathanael    http://borrowedbreath.com/
January 8th, 2009 at 2:43 pm

I play piano, trumpet, and guitar while riding a unicycle and juggling flaming torches.

100   John Hughes    
January 8th, 2009 at 9:14 pm

Nathanael: The unicycle is of the devil. It’s either got to be a boy or a girl as
God made it. Repent!

101   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 8th, 2009 at 9:18 pm

I play piano, trumpet, and guitar while riding a unicycle and juggling flaming torches and travelling through a labyrinth.

I feel so close to the circus church!