“Everything and everybody could then come home.” JWtSC page 89

Notice that IF Bell was a CU or even U believer Bell would have stated it, “Everything and everybody WILL then come home.” or “Everything and everybody could is now home.”

Yet, that Bell stated, “could” means that some might not… only that the potential that everything and everybody might… and if the reader noticed the othe clues such as Bell stating that one needs to “repent” and “believe” it should be obvious that PB is so far off the mark.

To me to state that Bell asserts Universalism and then with this statement Bell seems to leave it open that some might not come home even though they can, means that those who do assert that, miss huge clues that Bell in not saying everyone WILL be saved.

There is a big difference between “could” and “will”…

iggy

neil,

if i am supposed to prove it, then don’t get angry with me when i try to do just that. – Pastorboy

Agreed. I will get angry if you continue to ignore rebuttals, deflect and switch topics when confronted, and offer objections to things not said.

Historically these have been your three main tactics.

I see that hell itself is like Wright stated, a state of being that is of life continued in everlasting death. Again, that is not that clear, but of a constant realization that one is not whole and will never be.

I see that Dante may have taken it to be a a perpetual doing of whatever sin held one in bondage… fornication with no release, the murderer being murdered over and over with out the release of death, the coveter always pushing bags of gold but never feeling the satisfaction of using it. All this in a real sense is what is happening now, but in a real sense (though maybe not as Dante suggests) will be present in those lost forever.

Imagine being raised to New Life at the resurrection only to desire to be away from God out of fear of their punishment only to find that is their punishment. They will never have the opportunity to be redeemed and will stay in an ongoing torment over it.

Again, the bible does not paint a clear picture but only alludes to Hell’s likeness in things like an ever burning garbage dump… or death that has a living person being eaten eternally alive forever… or a fire that is never quenched. These are but pictures but we really do not know the reality any more than we know the reality that Heaven will be.

iggy

To be less than human would be hell in itself as it is now at times. We have no idea what being fully human means. At least not until we are resurrected and given our immortal bodies.

I can see a debate around hell itself whether it being eternal or not… Some like Stott see that it is not yet those who are tossed into the lake of fire are utterly destroyed.

To me I have read a few books of Wright and listened to many of his lectures and never once heard anything to lead me to even think of him as a Universalist… of any kind.

Again, the issue I see with Bell is that when taken out of context his words can be made to sound as if he is, which is what PB does… yet, in context, all those in Christ are to be saved which is what the book is about. Jesus The Son of David that leads us out of exodus into the New Creation as New creatures. In that we do as He does and imitate Him in His work. To state the True believer will go to hell seems to be adding and reading into Bell’s words and not taking an honest look at what he is actually saying. Again, if one does not understand the context and subtext Bell is building on, they will not “get” the book…

iggy

That is, some of statements seem to lean that way at times. Also, his understanding of “hell” is, in my opinion woefully inadequate.

Well, I guess his view is that we just aren’t told the specifics of what it will be, so we shouldn’t focus on it too much.

Seriously, I grew up in the type of Evangelicalism that loved trying to scare people out of hell. In my experience, this only goes so far. It scares little kids and eventually the older ones will laugh at it. The people who make decisions based on this fear seem to have a huge rate of recidivism.

My little pet theory is that many American Evanglicals are drawn to the graphic descriptions of Hell because most of have had pretty posh lives, and we need to try to convince people they need to be saved from something. I would think that in different circumstances, people have an inherent understanding that they’re not in a good place and they need saved.

I don’t think Wright is a universalist, but he is quite adept at not entirely making that clear to people. And I can fully understand why some believe he is. I don’t believe he is, but I’ve only read six or seven of his books.

This is true… but they cannot maintain that he is after seeing the video in which he flatly declares he is not.

Though clarity seems to be in the eye of the beholder…

What so many Wright haters do is lump him in with Borg and others that are more liberal in their views. Wright is the good guy in that conversation and they miss that.

Now I don’t agree with all that Wright states. I see that not all Jews saw the Law as a way to attain righteousness unto salvation… meaning “Legalistic” as it is used. Rather that some understood the Law, and some also used it to justify themselves before God. Wright may goo too far in stating that justification was just between the Jew and gentile.

I see that both views are valid. At times Paul is addressing the Jew/Gentile’s about justification and at times he is addressing our individual standings before God.

Since Jews and Gentiles are made equal in the Law as all have sinned, all are justified at the Cross and made into new creations by the resurrected Life of Christ.

I love Wright… he is thought provoking and can inspire more thoughts in one sentence than some can in an entire sermon.

I agree though that justification is not just a one time event, but a continuing process of events as we work out our salvation while God does His work in and and through us. In that we become as Christ being the Just living by faith bringing justices as Christ did. JEsus was the Just and the Justifier… and that is imparted to us.

So many misunderstand that it does not just pertain to the Elect but to all. For we were justified at the Cross by the death of Christ… and without that justification, we could not have had our debt of sin taken away. Sin was dealt with at the Cross for it was judged and died as the bible states “He became sin for us”.

But, this whole idea that Wright is a Christian Universalist is ludicrous… and a gross misrepresentation of what he teaches. So anyone who seriously believes that Wright teaches that would be laughed out of the room by Wrights more serious critics. There may be some room for criticism of his writings but to state he is a Christian Universalist is so out of touch with reality it is in the realm of La-la land and straight jackets.

And so that leads us to PB…

iggy