With the NFL playoffs in full swing, it’s time for a pool. Unfortunately, it’s got nothing to do with football. The bet is this — despite
- its glaring inaccuracies
- its obvious pre-meditated agenda
- its hideous mis-characterizations
- its inaccurate descriptions of many aspects of Christianity, and
- its appearance in a secular journal,
which ADM will first claim this article as holy writ, simply because it takes shots at Mark Driscoll, one of their favorite whipping boys.
I’m so excited about this contest, I may even give away a copy of a book to the winner.
HT to JT.
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on Saturday, January 10th, 2009 at 3:01 pm and is filed under ODM Writers, Theology.
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144 Comments(+Add)
I call digs on Slice!
Bah, looks like its CR?N today by “Editor”.
http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=8812
Do I at least get a consolation prize?
The funny thing is that the “editor” probably saw Brendt’s post here first and was like, “oh man, they beat me to it!”…
Aaron, you’re still in the running. While I’m 99% sure of
Ken’sthe C?N editor’s viewpoint, he didn’t specifically say anything positive about the article, so that one doesn’t count.Phil, that’s called “giving the ADMs enough rope”.
I find Mark Driscoll offensive on many levels. By his own admission and my perseption he comes across as arrogant and smug, and his style and verbiage is careless and coarse. He, like so many, are obsessed with new and dramatic exegetical revelations that shock one group and elicit applause and wonder from another.
His “unpacking” of Song of Solomon is a post modern revelation that leaves most theologians, past and present, scratching their heads. It is curious that when God had the opportunity to use the clarity of the New Testament writers to expound on the particulars Driscoll claims to see in SoS, God chose to remain silent, simply saying the marriage bed is undefiled. God didn’t write enough material in the New Testament to even hold a “better sex” conference Himself today!
Although Driscoll participates on cutting edge church growth seminars, he claims Calvinist credentials. I find those streams of evangelicalism to be incongruous and mutually exclusive. And when Driscoll left the emergent group, he could not wait until he castigated McLaren, Paggit, and I believe Bell as teaching heresy. Oh how I love this game, even within the targets of the word “heretic” they pick up those same stones and spread the wealth!
I find Rob Bell much more humble, much less coarse, and would much rather listen to him that I would Driscoll. I am not sure what it means that the congregation’s favorite movie is “Fight Club”, however it cannot be good.
You are free to receive this as a voice from the past whose Christianity has left him behind. We will die out soon.
I find Mark Driscoll offensive too.
what makes me more offensive is the Mark Driscoll and John Piper supporters
who say Driscoll should get a free pass because he is friends with Piper.
I think those who support Driscoll’s teaching ought to use a better defense for Driscoll
than he’s “friends” with John Piper
I like Driscoll despite the support of Piper.
I’m not sure why anyone thinks Driscoll needs defended, he communicates the gospel well, and loudly in a city where that doesn’t happen all that often.
Unless you happen to be against communicating the gospel in dark places.
Every generation passes sooner or later and takes their good and their bad with them.
so, bo you are saying pushing
false teachings like contemplative prayer
and being as vulgar as he can for attention
is a means to end to witness to the lost
j (#7)
Seriously? There are really people who say that? I like both men, but that’s just silly. It’s kinda a reverse of GBA.
No, I’m saying you’re just making stuff up about Mark, or you’re making up stuff that isn’t in scripture.
j (#10):
Too bad you don’t run an ADM, j. That comment would prove that you bought the NYT article.
Wait a minute, I though Steve Camp held the sole ability to “discern” Driscoll’s motives.
Oh, wait. Camp’s middle initial is J.
bo, you are saying that driscoll
has called contemplative prayer
a false teaching
or you just lying for him
or you obviosuly dont have a clue about what Driscoll actually is pushing
2 TIMOTHY 4:3-4
This really made me laugh a bit. Driscoll grew up blue collar, went to public schools, and lived in a rougher part of town. Do you really think what he says in his sermons is as “being as vulgar as he can”?
Just more ridiculous hyperbole coupled with slander meant to inflict damage. The exact opposite of what we’re called to in scripture.
brednt, so cause I am not a kool-aid drinker of Driscoll’s “theology”
I am a admer
congrats. it shows you have little care for people who use discernment when you say that anyone who criticizes Driscoll
is a “admer”
No, I’m saying that contemplation and meditation aren’t forbidden by scripture. In fact, they’re encouraged.
I”m also fairly certain that the more formalized versions of such have occasionally been condemned by Driscoll. I recall him specifically speaking out against walking the labyrinth. I disagree with him on the issue, but I’m not going to lie about him to smear him, as you seem determined to do.
bo, I grew up blue collar, went to public schools, and lived in a rougher part of town
does that give me a automatic pass to be vulgar
and obsessively preach on the song of solomon
Bo Diaz, I think you are a ADMER
No, but you seem to think it gives you a license to slander.
One sermon series is “obsessively preach[ing]“? Just another example of your lies against Driscoll. Repent.
Well, Brendt, it took exactly 6 comments to miss the point.
I call Rev. Ratliff.
bo, how am I smearing Driscoll?
I mean this website smears anyone who criticizes
the shack
the emergent church
the seeker-sensitive churches
yet, you are calling those who use DISCERNMENT
“smear merchants”
Bo diaz, I officially brand you a admer cause you act like
what you accuse Steve Camp and Ingrid S and Chris R
of:
being “smear merchants”
Steve Camp is the easy call on this one.
He hates Driscoll.
Um, no, j. I said nothing of the sort. I did not equate disagreeing with Driscoll with being an ADMer. I said that making a comment like “being as vulgar as he can” is totally in lock-step with the article and with ADM’s mis-characterization of Driscoll.
Perhaps a little less “discernment” and a little more reading comprehension skills are in order.
bo, what is repentance
cause since most churches in america are
seeker-sensitive and purpose-driven and emergent
and pastors are forbidden to preach on repentance
most christians in america dont know what that is.
j–Driscoll hates The Shack. Does that change your mind?
Where and how you grew up is irrelevant. I sold drugs into high schools, I was pervasively permiscuous, I was extermely violent, and I and three other friends were planning on robbing a bank and killing the guard on the way in. At that point I was seriously injured in a street fight and while recovering saw Billy Graham on TV and was saved.
During my growth as a believer God helped me overcome coarse langauge and other inappropriate behavior. Billy Graham did not use any of those things to reach a sinner like me, the Holy Spirit used the gospel without any “relevant” and “avante garde” type of presentation.
brendt, so you are saying
I shouldnt believe in sound doctrine and I shouldnt use discernment
and that I should also ignore
1 JOHN 4:1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eau07xkFG2c
————————————————-
2 TIMOTHY 4:3-4
Jerry (#20):
Yeah, well, I kinda asked for it, just by bringing up Seattle’s Lightning Rod.
#24: Blah, blah, blah, blah and don’t forget yada yada yada. Oh, and I almost neglected blah, blah, blah and blah; blah blah; blah!!
blah. blah.
Once again, I reiterate: I got dibs on Rev Ratliff.
jerry, show me where Driscoll has spoken out on the shack
Alright lets go over the lies you’ve told just in this thread.
1. Driscoll is as vulgar as it is possible for him to be.
Clearly he isn’t. In fact calling him the “cussing pastor” is really only appropriate in the context of discussing Blue Like Jazz where he was termed such since I’ve never heard him cuss either from his own podcasts or from his website or interviews.
2. Driscoll approves of contemplative prayer.
He’s condemned walking the labyrinth and generally hasn’t had much to say about other formalized versions of it.
Also, I would point out that contemplation and meditation are commended by scripture, so I’m not really sure why you would try to make anything out of this.
3. Driscoll obsessively preaches on Song of Solomon.
He has a single sermon series in his years of preaching.
You are a liar J, and you need to repent.
I am partial to strawberry shacks.
j (#27):
My bad — a LOT more reading comprehension skills are in order.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK65Jfny70Y
Gee that was easy. You really need to stop talking about Driscoll until you actually know something about him.
brendt, actually Mark isnt just
seattle’s lightning rod
he is also
the Guardian of Grunge and Seattle Sludge
bo, thanks
are you sre chad holtz has seen that video.
chad is a fanatical promoter of that blasphemous book
Someone has to go out and minister to the dirty dirty sinners. Not everyone can earn their pristine way into heaven like you.
bo i will ask again
bo, what is repentance
and how does one do it
cause since most churches in america are
seeker-sensitive and purpose-driven and emergent
and pastors are forbidden to preach on repentance
most christians in america dont know what that is.
j (#30):
If you go to YouTube, and search for “mark driscoll” (don’t even bother adding “shack” to the search), the VERY FIRST video listed is an 8-minute video of Driscoll speaking against The Shack.
Repentance – metanoia – to change your mind.
Usually about Jesus in terms of salvation. After salvation it means to change your mind about something else (sin, witnessing, etc.) but that doesn’t automatically mean deliverance. Sometimes repentance is a process – most times in fact.
I do go out and minister to the dirty dirty sinners.
I dont have to be vulgar and “relevant” like Driscoll does in order to witness.
http://wayofthemaster.com/
http://www.livingwaters.com/
——————————————-
BTW, if I am so bad, why arent you guys praying for me to change.
I’ll take your refusal to discuss the very matters you brought up as an inability to admit error and turn from them.
Thanks for playing.
Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, who doesn’t agree with me on every jot and tittle on this thread will be exposed for the absolute jerks that they are, and the unregenerate nature of their souls.
But I enjoy the dialogue.
j (#36):
Tell me where I’ve missed the connections:
* Chad supports The Shack.
* Chad is often in agreement with writers on this blog.
* I am a writer on this blog.
* I support Mark Driscoll.
* There’s hypocrisy there, even though Chad and I are two different people.
Did I get your conclusion right?
(You may note that I asked. I didn’t tell you what you were saying.)
youre welcome bo (sarcasm)
I do.
j: why arent you guys praying for me to change
Bo: I do.
You obviously don’t, Bo. j has made it very clear that he knows all our actions and motives.
poster 44
http://chadholtz.wordpress.com/2008/10/18/the-shack/
#36
j, I am a fanatical reader of the Shack. I read it to my children. I share it with my family. You see, God gave us these things called ‘brains’. He said ‘use them.’ No one at this blog has ever said: “We are in full 100% support of every single jot and tittle written in The Shack.”
You are being obtuse. I happen to disagree with Driscoll on his points about The Shack. I think for all his wonderful Reformedness he thoroughly, absolutely, 100% missed the point of the Shack. As you are missing the point of this thread.
I could be wrong, but I don’t even think everyone who writes for this blog has read the Shack.
Like I said, quoting you, “Blah, blah blah…etc.,”
*headsmack* + DOH!
Wait, wait, wait….
j is being obtuse and misrepresenting things – that’s unpossible!
brendt, how is saying
j has made it very clear that he knows all our actions and motives
any different from some on here who say
that they know what ADMers actions and motives are
how do you know that Steve Camp or Chris Roseborough
doesnt have pure actions and motives when
they criticize some questionable teacher who may or may not be leading people astray
j,
I’m not praying for you to change. I am praying for you to learn how to use your powers of discernment, I am also praying that you will start using your brain and start thinking a little instead of always blathering on about a bunch of nonsense.
jerry
Really? This is where you’re going with this?
I’ve pointed out obvious lies that you’ve told in this thread and this is where you think the issue is? How about you address your action and sin instead of doing everything possible to talk about everything else except that?
phil,
wouldnt me being obtuse and misrepresenting things
wouldnt that make me a emergent
if I was being obtuse and misrepresenting things
#36
Chad is not around to defend him self. He is not a fanatical promoter of The Shack. He wrote a favorable review on it and then you came with a bunch of really stupid comments and links about The Shack and it was clear that you never read the book but just wanted to argue. Stop slandering your Christian brothers j!
Oh but we’ve shown how J has lied in the past. I’m willing to bet that either J is an ADM or the son of an ADM.
Brendt,
New Pool: Guessing the real identity of ‘j’; or is it ‘v’.
My guess is that ‘j’ is really ‘mike’.
jerry
j (#52):
Oh, that’s an easy one. It’s different because (to my knowledge) the latter hasn’t ever actually occurred. Unless you’d like to correct me with an actual example.
Provide for things honest in the sight of all men.
Who are you j?
I miss Joe C. How is he doing?
Tim Reed used to be the expert at unravelling anonymous identities.
Brendt – are you an Eagles fan?
Maybe ‘j’ is Tim Reed?
Ooooh the plot thickens…
Rick, yes. I was born in Philadelphia, but have been down here in Atlanta for 30+ years now. Variations occur, depending on the sport, as to where stronger loyalties lie (Atlanta or Philly team). As far as the NFL goes, it’s probably a draw between the Falcons and the Eagles (now that Vick is in jail and TO is in Dallas).
Brendt,
My son would love you. He’s got a big hang-up for the Eagles. I’m pulling for them against NY.
jerry
I grew up in South Jersey and was an Eagles fan, after the Cowboys. I like Donovan and believe he gets a bad rap.
Ok…
2 crazy things I’ve read today:
First,
Driscoll’s official cross over into “cult-leader” status by saying:
“they are sinning by questioning.”
Yikes. This will sound horrible, but I honestly pray for his leadership to de-rail and his church to implode and re-organize without him.
Second,
J writing that pastors are forbidden from preaching repentance and that most churches are the evil seeker-sensitive or emergent types.
Then again, if I drank deeply from the toilet of the ADM blogosphere then I might think this too.
there isn’t a word in the english language that can sufficiently describe the degree of bat doo-doo craziness my day has achieved.
ick.
Dem would be fightin’ words up here is Montana…
LOL!
iggy
(Honoring the spirit though not the letter of Driscoll) (I am a bit paranoid as Driscoll follows me on twitter!)
RE: #55
No, that would make you an intentional liar and slander and one who shares in the ministry of Satan, The Accuser.
Most definitely not emergent, but very close to your islamic cousins in the 10-40 window.
that’s what intentional misrepresenting and obfuscation means.
Driscoll once referred to us goofballs that see the church, the believer, and Christ in the Song of Solomon as “wingnuts”. And he suggested that if I place that metaphor within the context of the book I am forcing a homosexual realtionship with Christ.
Yea, he’s a real classy guy. That type of comment would be castigated here if the tables were turned. It’s a real shepherd’s heart.
My guess is that “J” is…uh, oh…ready for it. Nah I won’t out him now but I can tell “J” that his IP address and email are all over the net. Including his facebook page.
Is it someone we all know??
Improbable, Rick.
“J” is somewhat of an anomaly. I can’t draw any connection between him and typical lurkers here.
I personally have never been on the Facbook site. I wanted to “confess” that in order to give some perspective on how medieval I really am. Here are some other oddities that may amuse you:
* My cell phone cannot give or receive texts.
* My cell phone is over 4 years old and not a flip design.
* I do not know what IP stands for or where to find it.
* I sometimes do not understand what you guys are talking about.
BTW – what is television?
*
I think you should “out” J.
It’s only fair…and consistent with the stated posting policies of this site.
I think we should give him the opportunity to “out” himself. If he continues to come here, misrepresent and slander those he opposes, then he should be outed.
From the policy section:
“We also do not accept anonymous comments. If you can’t put your name to it, come back when you’ve grown a spine and then comment.”
Also from the policy section:
“You don’t have to respond to everything we ever write, whether you like it or not. We encourage you to exercise this right, particularly if you are a moron.”
Maybe I am wrong, but I sense the presence of either a Martino or a Reed!
Nah…not gonna happen. If he wants to remain anonymous to everyone except the writers than he can in my opinion.
I think we should out “NC”.
I can assure that it isn’t either of them.
Also IP stands for internet protocol.
Let’s out Chris L.. What does “L” stand for, legalistic?
So Chris Lyons wrote those policies?
Interesting how a “conversation” suddenly stops when you ask for proof (#59). “Patrick” would be so proud.
#84. I believe he did. I know that I did not. I can’t speak for Tim, but I’m fairly certain he did not as well.
I must say I was impressed with this phrase:
“hideous mis-characterizations ”
An excellent interjection of the word hideous! Good form, Brendt.
No, that would make you an ADM or one of their mindless sycophants, as you’ve just described their modus operandi to a ‘T’…
With just a tad bit of “discernment”, you’d know that there is no real stereotypical “emergent”, because it’s not a denomination or monolithinc organization, but rather a similar response to the church’s selling out to modernism & nationalism in the most recent generations….
Rick,
Having listened to that video, I thought his “wingnut” comment was directed at those who said that SoS could not be taken at face value, but ONLY as metaphor…
I think I drafted them from Julie’s blog policies…
He has ‘outed’ himself a number of times – and I think he went to ‘nc’ because we had too many Nathan’s…
I know that I have life, and that abundantly.
Apparently you “mindless sycophants” have no life at all.
Yeah – no hyperbole there…
I chuckled at the bit about contemplative prayer being false teaching… with all that’s going on in the world they’re worried about the “method” of meditating on God’s greatness.
I agree with that. That seems really crazy to me. It’s kind of amazing to hear that coming from a guy like Driscoll who is only where he is because of questioning leadership to a big extent. He basically said a big reason he started Mars Hill was because he couldn’t find a church that met his criteria in his first book.
I guess I hold out hope that he was taken out of context in some way, but that seems pretty clear. It is the NYT, though.
We point out the ADM tactics. I think you misunderstand what “smear” means. It is usually applies to those who twist, selectively quote, lie, etc… You won’t find that from those who contribute posts here, and you won’t be able to show that we do…
ah, yes…#89…a person who apparently thinks the Holy Spirit retired.
Yes, Template/coward/imam/whoever you are….
what would any of us have done until you came with your “gospel” of anger and resentment to bring us life?
criticism on substance doesn’t equal smearing.
demonization for cosmetic difference or differences of personal preference IS smearing.
that’s the difference…
I don’t think we’ve every posted on their motives. I have o doubt their motives are pure (in their own minds anyway)… it’s the methods we address.
Anybody who needs to know who I am can ask. I’ve been here a while and there were to many “Nathans” on the threads.
J should be outed.
So should Template.
Oh well, I’ll be happy to change Template. In fact, I think he should go into moderation until he rectifies his name.
That’s the famous Chris P.
I love this statement from the blog of the Template of General Disdain.
“Don’t make the prophet force you to consume your own idol.”
I love it!! Of course it made me conjour up some others:
* Don’t make the prophet backslap you.
* Don’t make the prophet disrobe you publicly.
* Don’t make the prophet spit on your sister.
* Don’t make the prophet make you kiss Joel Osteen.
* Don’t make the prophet urinate on your systematic theology.
* Don’t make the prophet vomit on your profession of faith.
* Don’t make the prophet desecrate your church building.
I just find some of this stuff sooooo goofy. No Joe, I am not on pain medicine. The Template of General Disdain – I cannot help but laugh out loud. Here are some internet names for ADMs:
* The Highest Tower of Rebuke
* The Emperor of Deepest Discernment
* The Henchman of Hideous Homiletics
* The Regal Reformer
* The Urinator
* The Destroyer of Everything Positive
* The Executioner of All False Life
* The Representative of the Redeemer
* The Mouthpiece of Eternity
* The Universal Authority
OK, I feel better. I hope some ogf these will lighten up your evening!
Geesh -what’s the point?
I wish j would come back to the conversation. I kind of miss her.
Thank you, Neil, that made me think of another. As opposed to a mindless sycophant -
The Savant Sycophant
The Corrector
The Calvineer
ah…so it is Chris P….
lovely.
His church’s website says they are “renewing the strength in relationships”–as in plural.
sounds very man-centered.
Or possibly crypto-modalist, or tri-theist, or semi-mormon that holds to multiple relationships with the deities.
hmmmm.
something to think about enough to make me filled with obsessive rage to the glory of myself….oops, I mean, the glory of god.
When Chris P’s blog says, “Don’t make the prophet make you eat your own idol” is he speaking of chocolate Easter bunnies??
I’m sure it’s got some cryptic fringe tin foil hat significance against the dirty cathy-licks.
Actually it is referring to Moses making the Jews drink the golden calf, but it is so funny and so creatively self righteous. I love these things because I am demented!
Don’t make the prophet force you to watch Oprah!
Don’t make the prophet order you get a tatoo that reads “Spurgeon Rocks”!
I think I need help…
oooooh, yeeeeeeah! That’s right! And they all got really sick and stuff.
yeah, and he’s said that the “emergents” are the ones with a self-inflated sense of their “prophetic” role.
well…he’s made my crazy list for today:
Driscoll
The unknown “j”
and Chris P.
nc – you are demented as well!
I’m glad to be in good company with you, Rick.
And if it weren’t for bad luck, I’d have not luck at alllll… Gloom despair and agony on me.
Just thought I’d finish the song…
iggy
I am thinking of changing my name to the toilet of general disarray…
or
The Porcelain Throne of despair.
or
The temple of the aborted emergent idiots.
or
The Warden of locked away self awareness.
iggy
I do believe that when you change your nternet name in order to provide a clandstine way to comment o a particular blog, you are obsessed. And instead of using a generic “John Smith” type of name you use “The Template of General Disdain”, well that just may be enough evidence for a psycological inarceration designed to protect yourself from yourself.
On a more serious note: j has illustrated well how to take an issue of style (e.g. preaching style, personality style, contemplation of Scripture style) and blow it completely out of proportion.
And at the same time make wild accusations that are false (e.g. – Driscoll promoting The Shack), wildly exaggerated (e.g. – Driscoll is as vulgar as he can be),or based on a faulty interpretation (e.g. – contemplative prayer is a false teaching).
For guys who go on about love and tolerance, you don’t really talk your walk, tearing people you disagree with to shreds. They’re in the wrong – don’t perpetuate the same cycle of hurt, anger and bitterness.
Just so we’re all clear on names:
K is also our friend and frequent critic CommonSense Christian
Yup, I’m CSC. Figured my moniker was a lie so I’m using my real initial. The name’s Kofi actually…
Hi Kofi,
Welcome. Cool name.
CONGRATULATIONS BRENDT!!!
Good luck against the Cardinals!
CRN has posted Mark Driscoll, sex therapist, talk on sex. In the talk he mentions that some girls asked him if performing oral sex or having anal sex still qualifies them as being virgins. Now here is my question:
Are these girls professing believers or unbelievers? If unbelievers, then their sex lives are incidental. If professing believers, well you can arive at your own thoughts.
And his advice to girls who are engaging in oral sex is “stop”. Good advice but he gives no Biblical reason or Biblical process that would help them stop. If a girl comes to me and wants to know if she is still a virgin because she’s only having oral sex, I ask her about her salvation and her relationship with Jesus Christ.
Talking about specific acts of sex by a pastor has no Biblical foundation (unless you make something up in Song of Solomon), and it expands the calling of a shepherd far beyong what God ever intended. We’ve come a long way baby, and look around, we’re the better for it.
With enough teaching about sexual acts and the permissible orafices perhaps we can curtail the waterfall of divorces.
(And if you buy that, perhaps you believe Dr. Ruth is a prophetess)
We’re through playin’ now!
Rick I would disagree. As a pastor I’m often called upon to counsel and unfortunately these are questions that are being asked. I would consider it unbiblical to not address it.
Furthermore I do believe that Paul spoke pretty plainly about sex in the bible. See 1 and 2 Corinthians for a start.
“I would consider it unbiblical to not address it.”
What verses do you use for anal sex? What verses in Corinthians do you use for oral sex? What verses for sex toys? What verses for frequency?
Is your counsel your best wisdom or do you have specific verses that give open guidance?
I’m not really a Driscoll fan, but I thought in the context of that question, Driscoll pretty much did the right thing. He basically said that the question isn’t “where is the line” but rather what is the proper context of any sexual relationship. And he made it clear that it’s within marriage.
He actually cited a few different passages of Scripture in his answer as well.
And when a church challenges their congregation to have sex every day for a month, what do you tell those who may be impotent? Do you say “Sit this one out?”
How about women who are physically unable to do that? Wait for another challenge? How about couples that are experiencing marital problems and their intimacy has suffered? How do you keep them from feeling like their problems are magnified with the majority of the congregation acting like giddy high schoolers?
The entire thing is absurd and completely out of the scope of Scripture and the intent of God concerning the church. How about praying for two hours every day for a month? Fasting two days a week for a month? I would rather challenge my members to walk the labyrinth every day for a month.
“And he made it clear that it’s within marriage.”
A real stand. He is offensive and provocative and self centered. There is no controversy about a prayer series, or a fasting series, or a holiness series, but a sex series – wow, bring it on. If there is anything that Americans know all about is sex. The obsession with sex, even in the church, is pathological.
Let’s see – in the past several years, he’s had one (1) short series specifically on the SoS (along with a series based solely on questions asked by, and voted on by, his church that included a few sexual topics), not all of which were specifically about sex. In that same time, he’s had all sorts of long series on such things as basic beliefs of Christianity (multiple times), Nehemiah, prayer, spiritual warfare, generosity, etc., etc. and somehow he’s singled out for talking about sex because that paragon of Christian virtue, the New York Times, wrote an article about a Christian who’s not afraid to be frank in our nancified culture?
Whatever. Apart from his Calvinism (which isn’t always on display, fortunately), Driscoll is a darn sight better than any other “Reformed” voice heard today, and a good number of evangelical ones to boot.
I believe that was a church in the SE US, not Driscoll.
I recall Driscoll suggesting something similar (though I believe it was one hour per day).
And he’s spoken on the biblical practice of fasting.
Not every topic will be applicable to every member of a church every week. Teaching the body is about teaching the body – not searching for the lowest common denominator on a weekly basis.
Maybe the mechanics, but when you’ve got a church full of twentysomethings who know all of the mechanics, but haven’t been Christians long enough to know the owner’s manual, they need someone willing to answer their questions – whether they’re relevant to every Tom, Dick and Harry evesdropping via the world-wide-web or not…
As weird as I would find it… does this mean we can only talk about subject we find in the Bible?
Chris L.,
So he’s done one series that lent itself to sex (i.e. – SoS) since that’s the subject of the book… and addressed some question about is when asked. And in the meantime a whole bunch of other stuff…
Yet people always attack him for the sex talk – I wonder who’s really obsessed.
I found that a bit odd as well, but as Chris L, said…
Provocative – maybe, so what?
Self-centered – How so?
Offensive – such as?
This is why I never teach about money… there might be some in the congregation without a job.
My philosophy about Christian growth is different than others, I believe grwoning in the knowledge of Jesus Christ through the Word and prayer will be massively more effctive that dealing with the mechanics of sex. I was 23 when I was saved, I was promiscuous in the extreme, although I had things in my life that God removed in a process, I knew all kinds of sex outside marriage was wrong.
I do believe there are many things at play here.
* The shallow commitment to Christ
* The redefining of a pastor’s calling
* The massive incursion of American culture into the church
* The inundation of sex via many forms of entertainment
* The alluring power of a pastor’s personality
* International exposure via communication vehicles
* The insatiable need for “new” and “provocative” by the western world that has everything
* The unhealthy loyalty to men which prohibits any genuine assessment
* The general Samson-esque backslidden condition of the church
Never before in the history of the New Testament has there been so many churches, so many professing believers, so much original language knowledge, so many Bibles, so many Christian resources, so many programs and conferences, and so much Biblical information, with so little effect on the nation in which they dwell. And to complete the Samson analogy, most of the church is blind to the entire situation while much of the unbelieving community believe they are becoming more spiritual.
As I said earlier, Rick, I disagree with Driscoll on a lot of things, particularly the way he seems to fight against the sissification of the church by presenting a caricature of masculinity, i.e., Jesus as an ultimate fighting champion, etc. Personally, I see that as an image of Christ that takes a metaphor in Revelation a bit too far.
As far as what he’s saying on this particular video, I’m having a hard time seeing how you’re reaching all of your conclusions from this. It seems like a bit of a stretch to condemn all of a church’s discipleship and prayer teaching because of this one question and answer.
“because of this one question and answer.”
It is not because of this one answer, it is cumulative. You will not see it as do I. Either a have a greater perspective due to a transgenerational experience, or I am in bondage to the past.
I continue to earnestly attempt to be malleable in my methodologies and my interaction with others, however there are lines being crossed which I personally see as unbiblical, carnal, and part of a dismantling of redemptive Christianity wholly centered on Christ.
Even when someone like Driscoll speaks of Jesus, he, as you noted, repackages Him into a tortured “manly-man” caricature which is not only irrelevant, it brings the focus away from Christ’s mission of redemption and encourages carnal aggressiveness in Christian men that resembles Clint Eastwood more than it resembles the humble, cross adorning Savior.
Fight Club – that is what delights the Holy Spirit.
All this other stuff is obviously up for debate…just look at the thread.
I’m still blown away by:
“They are sinning by questioning.”
If he said that…I can’t imagine what “context” is needed to justify it.
So I don’t get all the concern about the NYT, or anything else, etc. etc.
They are sinning…
by questioning.
Driscoll is like Bill O’Reilly.
He takes social class resentments and uses them to fuel his energy.
He’s constantly harping about his “wrong side of the tracks” persona that gives him a sense of the “real world”…blah blah blah blah…
you know, the church plant I did was very similar in outreach to his…we didn’t buy into oppressive social strictures that alienated people, we had the whole “freaks and geeks” hipness thing, but we didn’t have to walk around acting like we were compensating for size and we certainly didn’t think our hipness was a mark of success…we just wanted to love people as they were and where they were….but then again…that’s all “sissified” and “queer” talk.
yeeeesh.
that guy is sick.
I am not a Driscoll fan.
Yeah, there are plenty of good reasons to dislike Driscoll. I just don’t understand all the hubbub about this specific video.
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/false-teaching/national-pastors-convention-rounding-up-the-usual-suspects/
Classic example of focusing on externals, being petty and small…
all things we’ve come to expect and love about the High Priestess
nc – the post at SoL is exactly why that site is not to be taken as a serious Christian blog. The chronic practice of hyperbole and demeaning labels render any perspectives moot. I cannot understand how someone who takes her motherhood so seriously can present such an example of personal attacks, condescention, and open disrespect for ordained men.
Her description of the pictures of these pastors as “mugshots” was a new one. Let all our children learn from her example, when you disagree with others make them criminals and refer to them in the most debasing terms. That is the type of Christianity that exalts the Risen Christ.
It looks like an awesome conference to me… I wish I had the money to go…
iggy
Ig – submit a mugshot, maybe you can speak!
Maybe after my book is finished and published….
igs