On this day when the 44th President is sworn into office I have many thoughts and prayers. Kendall Payne sums up my thoughts best in her song “Pray”. BTW I also love the pastors words at the end.
On this day may you shine forth brightly His light. I will pray for you my friends.
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157 Comments(+Add)
Although I am profoundly a-political and attempt to be a-national as well, I will watch the inauguration. I must say, Chris, that although my views of politics are well known, I have found some of the rhetoric concerning Barak Obama to be most unchristian, disrespectful, and in opposition to Biblical teachings.
The cause for us Christians is not abortion, it is not homosexuality, and it is not socialism. Our calling is to present and live the gospel of Jesus Christ. Cause motivated Christianity betrays the spirit of redemption and does dispite to the spirit of grace. It appears as though humility has vanished and with it goes the spirit of jesus Christ.
I wish the church could get their eyes off of people and be fixated on the Lord Jesus Christ and His mission, not all the different agendas created by mankind.
Good Prayer by Warren.
Very Humble, bibically sound.
And in the name of Jesus.
Ive got mad R E S P E C T for Aretha too…
Wow, John, thank you for that humility. Except for “in Jesus name, I thought it was benign, which of course is exactly what was required. (I like the short “he changed my life” testimony at the end.
Thanks, John.
We all need to pray for PB. He’s surely about to be taken to the woodshed and have the skubala “discerned” out of him for saying something good about Rick Warren.
Sincere kudos to you, PB, for not throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Yeah, well wait till the imams get mad when they realize that he prayed in the name of Jesus “inclusively” by referring to him as Yeshua (Judaism) and Issa (Islamic)…
I’m sure they’ll find something sinister in there and that he didn’t pray in the name of the “real Jesus”. Since that’s one of their favorite strategies…
oooh, you prayed in the name of “jesus”? What Jesus are you referring to exactly?
give it time, people…give it time.
I can the ADMs getting mad because he didn’t mention any Death and Resurrection and didn’t use the word “sin”, though he did give specific sins.
I almost wait with anticipation to see the latest mis-reasoning that the ADMs use, especially Ingrid since she seems to be on the warpath toward Obama. One would think she believes he’s the Anti-Christ.
Here is how the AMDs actually “heard” Rick Warren’s prayer:
Dear Lord and Mother of All,
That proves it, the compromise is complete.
Is Arabic, not Islamic, but I suspect you knew that and was only projecting…
please God, please don’t let that be an actual response…
Neil,
got me.
but you know what “they” would most likely do with it.
nc and Neil – I cannot accept your language credentials until I see more accomplishment in your usage of the mother tongue, English.
I suppose it’s a can of worms to say I have worshiped with Arab brother and sisters in Christ who use “allah” and “Issa” as we use “God” and “Jesus.”
It would be just like an ADM to tell someone what words are acceptable in THEIR language…
oh no, Neil…you and they are deeply apostate.
“Allah” is a demon.
At least that’s what the ADM’s might say.
Aaron #7:
That’s a bit extreme, especially considering the fact that she seems to believe that Warren is the antiChrist.
Neil #13:
Hey, English was good enough for Jesus!!!!
Not that i had a problem with Ricks prayer,in fact i thought it was great..
But i would say most Arab brothers/sisters ( the vast majority) call Jesus by the name of Yasu.
I was told and read that you will hear Issa, but ironcally because Christian missionaries had mistakenly used the term in witness phamplets..
As this as nothing to do with the thread i will shut up now
And if you have faith like a watermellon, encompassing every minor point of doctrine, every systematic unfolding of the gospel, every Levitical revelation of your sin, and substantiated by a great ocean of sharply defined works that must be approved by the Sanhedrin, then…
You might be saved.
I was a bit surprised in that RW did use the Arabic name as well as Allah. My understanding of the origins of Allah is that of the Moon God, though most would just accept it is “God” in a generic term for most in the Muslim world.
So, I guess I would fall into the ODM category a bit… yet I realize that this is a volatile time and some sensitivity need be used for all faiths. (Well the dominate and most easily offended which in some way can be either Christian or Muslim.}
I had thought rather jokingly that RW could have had a U2 COEXIST sign behind him and wear the COEXIST bandanna and done the same thing.
Personally, though it is great that we still can mention Jesus as well as God at a secular government event.
Really the whole issue was and still is a non-issue to me and was a way that ODM’s could get numbers up at their sites.
iggy
I thought she thought I was! I am so disappointed now.
iggy
If you were an uneducated native who was hearing the gospel for the first time in your own language which included many idioms necessary for understanding, could you be saved if at that embryonic stage you called Jesus:
The One
The Son
The Offspring
The Sacrifice
The Chosen One
or other terms that you understood to mean Jesus?
I have never watched an innaguration, a post-election victory speech, or an acceptance of nomination speech. Why? Because they are irrelevant as soon as they are through. This man will be no different than any other president in that he will not be able to accomplish half of what he promised. The fact that hot air stays aloft brings new meaning to the term” soaring rhetoric”
Which brings us to the real reason we pray/ The church does not pray according to the “model” given us in Matthew 6, which btw Daniel, Jehoshaphat, Nehemiah, etc prayed according to.
If we have no “certainty” of God’s will then we are unable to pray properly.
Trust and certainty are one and the same root. I have faith in God as He has given me that gift through the hearing of His Word. Therefore I can trust and obey, because
He is a God of His Word. Which means we should know how to pray.
Kendall Payne and the sensitive pastor guy are focused on the “all about me and my murky journey” prayers.
Lord I do hate post-modern mindsets.
So I came into the hotel room tonight after a day of travel looking with great anticipation to see what complaint Ingrid would have with Warren’s prayer. Knew she could not complain that he didn’t pray “in Jesus’s name”.
Ummm. Nothing there? She must not have had a complaint. Is that possible? I guess if so it would be too much to ask for a complimentary post huh.
I just wanted to say ,my post might of appeared as splitting hairs, and i’m sorry for that….
Listening to Rick again i’m really touched at how passionate he was …I think he did a swell Job, he was very clear about where he stood,but gracious to people of different faiths..
You’ve been demoted to False Prophet.
Was he all covered in sores?
Oh, job, not Job. Never mind.
Yeah, those modern mindsets were so much more biblical… [roll eyes]
ummm…so why is this thread being pushed toward “epistemology”?
Who said anything about “uncertainty”, etc. etc.?
Talk about a non-sequitur…
I guess I shouldn’t question the Disdainful Spirit. He is guiding us into his anger filled truth.
Thank you, oh Template Spirit, for your wisdom.
Well then we know where you stand.
But really that was always plain by your previous comments. So either love your brother and sister post-moderns and believe the bible for God is love and first loved you… or hate them and remained in the dark without the Truth (Jesus) living in you… it is YOUR choice.
Hope you make the right one…
iggy
QUESTION: Since Warren mentioned Jesus in about 4 different languages, will he be praised by his detractors who said he would not?
ANSWER: Only if they act like Christians.
When was the last time some here did a post on Dwayna Litz? She responds to someone who suggests Jesus is against war. Well here is an exquisite example of wresting Scripture.
http://lightingtheway.blogspot.com/2009/01/did-jesus-come-to-bring-world-peace.html
She quotes two New Testament verses to “prove” Jesus is not anti-war, and in her search to find these two out of context verses she says “it was fun to think about this”. And all this time I thought peacemakers were blessed!?
Sometimes I feel as though aliens have taken over my mind.
Of course we know God uses everything to accomplish His will, but what New Testament verses can you find that say something else than what Ms. Litz suggests? I will start with “He who lives by the sword will die by the sword”.
May I suggest that even if Jesus was openly in favor of war, it still would not be fun to know. Ask the Iraqi’s if they have been having fun.
Wow, Rick, that piece you linked to actually quite disturbing. I love the line, “war is part of God’s sovereign plan”. Yes, I guess He does have to thin the herd every now and then…
Then there’s this gnostic gem:
It’s like she’s a parody of herself…
Dwayna’s post is actually a quite fascinating read. I’m intrigued at how Christians can repeatedly miss the distinction between descriptive and prescriptive language. Just because Jesus understood that war is inevitable does not mean that He condones war, especially as it is waged today.
It’s this fallacy that makes many believers hard to have adult conversations with. Any sort of nuanced or detailed understanding of how the world operates can be interpreted as a tacit acceptance or even blessing on our world.
BTW, minus 50 points to Chris for simply referring to Francis Chan as “the pastor”.
M. G. – well said. But it sure is fun to show how Christ is pro-war! When Jesus said turn the other cheek He meant to buy time until you get your gun!!
Who is Dwanya Litz and why is anyone asking her about these kind of issues?
I knew it was Francis Chan. I also know how the ADM’s like to detract from a message because of who says it. So I left that obvious piece of info out.
T.T.O.G.D. maybe you should listen to the song one more time. Your statement of “all about me” and the lyrics
Seem counter to one another.
Dwayna’s post is scary. I mean scary that she thinks those verses support her position and that there are people who give her money for her ministry and listen to what she has to say.
s
c
a
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y
“Who is Dwanya Litz and why is anyone asking her about these kind of issues?”
I believe she offers more than she is asked. Her blog is a study on hermeneutical distortion and complementarian compromise.
Other than that she seems cheery.
While Dwayna’s post is not really complete, War is something that God commanded in the Old Testament against certain tribes and people; in some situations to wipe out an entire people from the face of the earth.
While Jesus was not likely talking about war and peace in the same way that we do, he neither came down on the side of war, nor did he say that he disapproved of war. Jesus did not come to bring peace, but a sword in context was really about familial and tribal relationships in light of His message about the kingdom. He acknowledged there would be war, and destruction in the last days. It is just a reality that in a sinful world, there will be war.
Paul, in Romans 13, tells us to be subject to the authorities. This means that we are to pay taxes, submit to laws, and support our government. Our government, indeed our country, is at war. We are to support the war effort, our troops, and our president in the completion of that war and that effort.
If my broken down 43 year old body was called to war, I would go. If my president told me to kill the enemy, I would. And, like President Bush, I would look myself in the mirror and feel good.
chris,
I had to laugh at the comment that the song was “all about me” as it shows:
1. thetemplate of general disdain does not listen well.
2. Probably has a more “me centered” faith than they realizes… I bet he would fight to the death that Christianity is all about “not going to hell” which is about as “me” centered as it can get.
3. Hates his brothers and sisters in Christ so proves he does not take the bible serious and only reads and obeys what he feels fits himself.
All in all I would say he seems most selfish from his own comments… besides his name should give a real clue of his heart… He is a temple of disdain and not a temple of the Holy Spirit unless he thinks the Holy Spirit is Disdain.
I will add this… it is a quote from John MacArthur’s Grace to You ministry.
#40.
So what? that has nothing to do with her post. She twisted Scripture and showed a complete lack of basic hermeneutic skill. If someone you decided was a liberal emergent universalist did that, you’d castigate them.
Do you believe she handled the text properly?
I could not in good conscience kill another human. When Paul tells the Christians in Rome to submit to the government, it does not mean they need to actively approve of everything it does. It basically means they are not to rebel against it. It may even mean they may have to one day die at its hands one day.
The fact that we can take Jesus’ clear command to love our enemies and somehow justify killing them is pretty amazing to me. Christians can serve in the military I believe, but I do not think they should participate in a capacity where they are bearing arms against combatants. There may be some justification for self defense, but if you look at what happens to people who are forced to kill others, they cannot simply look at themselves in the mirror and feel good about it. Most of these people spend years being tortured by memories of what they’ve done.
War is a symptom of a fallen creation, and in many ways it is inevitable, but it is not what God intended. There will be no war in the renewed creation.
John – my political views notwithstanding, that is not the issue. Jesus is against ALL war, but He has incorporated ALL things into His plan. Some of these things are a direct result of sin, but until He comes back all these wars are senseless and usually over dirt.
But the verses she quoted are not proof that God is orchestrating wars between nations at all. How about love your enemies, and turn the other cheek, and all those verses. She seemed miffed that anyone would suggest that Jesus might be for peace, and she found it fun to search that Bible for verses that supported war.
Pretty creepy if you ask me.
Ok, seriously, let’s keep this on track here. Before we delve into “can a Christian be a combatant?” –personally I believe he or she can– or before we delve into the logical problems with the way John presented his case– if we are just supposed to support our government without question of moral rightness, we need to just shut up about abortion–I would like to know, and I think I can speak for many readers here, does he believe Dwayna used a sound hermeneutic and handled the text properly?
John – this statement is irrelevant and misleading as it supposes a continuation into the New Testament:
“War is something that God commanded in the Old Testament against certain tribes and people; in some situations to wipe out an entire people from the face of the earth.”
God did a lot of things in the OT that he does not do today. We must build out from the New Testament not shadow it with the Old Covenant. You are well aware of that, and I do not mean to suggest no Christian can fight in a war.
#45
Hold on Joe, I am listening to a message from some guy who says that Mass, Communion, Eucharist celebration is all about God coming into this world not to save people from our sin, but to bring about a new creation for everything and everyone. Very amusing rewrite of hymns to reflect winter in Michigan, however….BRB
I do not see a verse that states this at all… the early church up until Augustine was persecuted because they did not allow their children to join the military. The reason for Augustine to write about the “just war theory” was to give justification for Christians to join the military.
Yet to use Romans 13 to justify war seems to be pushing it much…
You’re killing me, Joe…
Dwayna using a proper hermeneutic! That’s a good one!
I should also note about my comment above (even though it was a bit of a tangent), that I was not intending to condemn Christians who have been involved in combat. It is a matter of conscience to some degree, but I do believe that there is a problem in the fact that the US sees itself as a Christian nation and maintains the world’s largest military.
“i’d look in the mirror and feel good about it.”
Yikes…
BTW I have nothing against any Christians that are in the military, I just see that historically that is what happened as well that I do not see that we are to go to war for our country in obedience to God… and at times need to stand against war… I pray for those who are in combat either Christian or not…
And “just war theory” was developed as the “exception” not the basis on which to go to war in general.
Also, Augustine was deeply influenced by Ambrose who was a civic leader first before becoming a Christian and his thought marked the first departure from the historic witness of the church with respect to violence, military involvement, etc.
again…
who is Dwanya Litz?
Why is she someone anyone listens to?
If my president tells me go to war, and to carry a rifle, and to shoot the enemy….Yep…I wouldn’t lose sleep.
sorry, I wouldn’t.
If Osama Bin Ladin was crossing the street I would run him over, and I wouldn’t blink.
I do not believe God is going to reconcile and restore Bin Laden either…unless he repents and trusts Christ. This is what this guy I am listening to seems to think. I better listen again.
#47
I’m sorry I couldn’t understand you. I saw that you were typing but you worked so hard to sidestep the question that I’m surprised your” broken down body” didn’t pull a hamstring.
.
Spoken like someone who’s been a civilian his whole life.
Please answer the question because right now it just sounds like your baying at the moon.
nc,
I think that we as Christians can serve the military… and find functions within the military to serve, yet at least for me I do not see this serving “nationalism” as mandated in the bible as serving God. We are to be good citizens, but as far as promoting war… (note I am saying promoting) I do not see that we should do so… I believe we need all to constantly look at ways to bring peace.
I have talks with my mother all the time who really supports the war effort and it is tough. Her motivation is out of fear and to me that is not the proper motivation we should have a Christians. I also do not agree (though I used to) that the terrorist is beyond negotiating with. In fact most of the people that blow themselves up are victims themselves. They are victims of poverty and a religious system that allows these victims to be duped to believe they will get to heaven instantly if martyred as well as have their family taken care of. In impoverished countries, which often have some of the biggest oil resources and riches emirates… these people see no real options. They are too poor that Allah would bless them, and too poor to take care of their families.
I see if we worked with the rich in those countries to help their own, much of the bombing would stop… not overnight.
Overall I just see that if we allowed God to lead us in our problems His solutions would work better than our bombs.
iggy
So much for being a reconciliationist.
Talking about Romans, I find it interesting in Romans 12:14-21, Paul says this:
I suppose there’s an exception in there for dealing with terrorists I’m just not seeing that says “run over terrorists whenever you get the chance”.
Yeah, come on PB at least stop and offer a glass of water before you put the tread to him…
#55
Joe, I stated, I did not think she used the verses rightly. I do not think Jesus was taking about war in those verses.
That being said, there is a difference between abortion and war. If the government says kill innocent babies and pay for it, that is morally wrong, clearly against the Bible (and yet emergents voted for Obama in incredible numbers) we are to stand against it.
If our government is involved in a war, right or not, it is within the bounds of the Bible to fight in that war, and to kill if necessary. There are good, sound bible teachers and Christians who disagree with me on that one.
PB,
Do you pay taxes? If you do… then you are guilty of supporting abortion also by your own standard.
Good grief.
And not all “Emergents” voted for Obama…
You are very insulting to others sometimes… I know quite a few who did not vote for Obama.
I think it would be fair to say not only Emergents but Christians as a whole voted for Obama….
sheesh
#61.
No, you did not say that she didn’t use the verses rightly, what you said was
There’s a distinction between being wrong and not complete.
As for your distinction between war and abortion. Again, it fails. If you are to stand against abortion (I believe you are) because it kills innocent people, it stands to reason that your government could go to war and kill innocent people and you’d need to stand against that too. IF what you are saying is correct, then the Germans did right by following Hitler. (Hint: they didn’t)
I know this is again a tangent, but, hey, it happens. But one thing I’ve always wondered is how those who hold to a Reformed theology can claim that the babies who are killed in an abortion are innocent? Doesn’t the doctrine of total depravity mean they’re condemned sinners? I’ve always wondered how they reconcile those two things.
Joe,
“Word mean something”… they say that all the time… but it seems none of them have a dictionary! Or the really mean… “Words mean something?”
WOW – no matter what you think of the issue of war, Dwayna’s use of the Scriptures is pathetic. It’s as if she just picked a couple, verses that had the words “war” and “peace” in them.
Just read Litz’s post… and am wondering what she inhaled before she wrote it?
This is an amazing statement. If the Gov’t instructs you to kill someone they perceive as an enemy, you would… whether they are right or not. Does this include all administrations or only those of a certain party? Why does the enemy of you Gov’t automatically become your enemy no questions asked?
Wow this is just amazing. The alleged pastor publicly proclaims he would deliberately sin and break his own countries laws by running down Bin Laden in a car.
These are your discerners ladies and gentlemen.
With such an inability to interpret and apply scripture is it any surprise he can’t understand people writing today?
ummm…
where’s the numbers on “emergents” voting for Obama?
Who knew they had their own statistical category over at Gallup…
yeesh.
seriously. Just shutup.
And supporting a war, even if it’s wrong?
Are you serious?
You see, this is where the hypocrisy of people really gets to shine through.
People who get on their sanctimonious high-horse over abortion, but then without regret support war?
Please, just stop running your fool mouth
Does this include all administrations or only those of a certain party?
That’s a critical question.
The death of Iraqi children is ok when ordered by George Bush who is anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage.
I get it now.
I’m sorry, if you believe that our military is purposely killing children, regardless of their nationality well, I don’t know what to say. If you think that Bush ordered the execution of children, I’m not sure what else to say to you either. If you think that if Mr. Obama orders us to war of some sort, that children won’t die, you are best naive.
If you don’t believe that any of this is happening than why make such an inflammatory statement?
Joe, you read me like you say I read Rob Bell
#63
No Christian could vote for Obama. Sorry.
#73 Amen Joe
I voted for McCain. But have you ever sat down and talked with another Christian who voted for Obama and listened (actually listened) to why they voted for him?
It was touched on a few times in this comment section, but pro-life and anti-abortion are not synonymous.
Pro-life means pro-life.
Anti-abortion means anti-abortion.
If you are against abortion but for war, you are not truly pro-life, you are anti-abortion.
C’mon, Joe.
That’s not what I’m saying at all. Calm down and think about it.
PB can off load the smug back smacking. You’re the person who is totally okay with war even when it’s wrong.
My point is to highlight the hypocrisy at play.
Of course I don’t think there is direct ordering of executions of children.
Please.
Really.
Please.
#78 just made my point.
I clearly demonstrating the hypocrisy of getting angry over the death of unborn children, but saying you’d look in the mirror and feel good about yourself when it comes to a war
…especially when we all know that children are inevitably killed as part of it.
You get my point now?
#75
You bucking for the HOly Spirit’s job again or just adding to the Gospel?
Just asking.
Joe,
honestly, could it be that you’re just trying to justify your own location in life?
Just asking…
something to think about.
Take a deep breath and really think about it.
For the record, I don’t think killing children is worse than killing adults.
I think killing human beings is tragic.
While I too voted for McCain, this is one of the sorriest things you’ve said yet. Are you really saying that no one who voted fir Obama could be a Christian?
Who should they have voted for then? McCain?
Of course McCain is divorced, and if you’d bother to read your scriptures you’d know that God hates divorce.
Of course as we’ve already seen you’re more than willing to overlook things like divorce if the guy (or particularly, girl) is on your team.
#81
NC,
Could it be that you are? I mean sure, it could be, but you said that Bush ordered the death of children. I’m telling you that is an inflammatory sentence that sounds much like something I’d expect from PB. It seems to say that anyone who disagrees with you about war must be for killing babies.
Now, do I find John’s statement to be hypocritical? Yes. Do I think that there is an inherent contradiction in what he says? Yes.
But you said, “The death of Iraqi children is ok when ordered by George Bush.”
Maybe I misread you, maybe you communicated poorly. both are possible, but it seems to me that you are implying that there are people who condone the killing of Iraqi children. I want to know who those people are, besides the extreme far right whackos. Help me understand how that sentence is different from something Silva, Chisham, or Ingrid would say.
#81.
No, I’m sorry. I’m taking opposition to what you said. The words you used. To me you were cavalier with the language and wrong in your implications.
To me, that statement is no better than John’s foolish statement that “no christian” could vote for Obama.
I understand that as the president there is a certain responsibility for what the military does, but blaming Bush for the death of all the Iraqi civilians who died seems a bit shortsighted. I’m sure military operations are going to continue in that region during Obama’s term, so will he get blamed as well? It just seems we like to be selective with our moral outrage.
Since Pastorboy missed this the first time…
John,
Have you chosen to end our discussion regarding Bell?
My immediate response to your own hyperbolic statement, Joe, clearly stated that’s not what I trying to say with my own hyperbole and that Neil’s comment better gets at what I’m trying to say.
Sometimes it’s good to explicitly state what is really being claimed by the hypocrisy:
i.e. when someone claims they know the state of someone’s salvation…that means they’re acting like the HOly Spirit.
but putting it that plainly offends people apparently. so much for the “truth”.
From Barna research:
I guess Jesus must have added the “don’t vote for Obama law” recently…
Really, for some who supported Obama it came out of the realization that overturning RvW will not fix the issue of abortion. Obama’s focus was to give better prenatal care and to focus on reducing abortion.
It is naive to think that overturning RvW will fix anything… Even if overturned, it will then go state by state and since abortion is a multi billion dollar industry, there is little hope it making it illegal. besides with the current political polarization on abortion has come to a stalemate… So many who voted for Obama saw that this might be a way to at least reduce abortions.
We are saved by grace not by who we vote for or our political alliances. Again, PB preaches works righteousness over grace….
nc,
I do not believe Bush approved of killing of innocents let alone Iraqi children. I agree this is something that is horrible that happens and do wish it would not. Yet, it is hard for me to accept your statements about Bush or even anyone involved would see that as a gov’t approved action.
I agree in Spirit in your comments but not the words.
NC,
I apologize if I have offended. Seriously. I am not offended by truth, but I read your statement to say that Bush was ordering the death of Children, a complaint I have heard others say.
Now, what hyperbole did I use? I agree that PB was wrong in his statement, about salvation.
I am against abortion and I believe that war can be justified. That doesn’t make me a proponent of killing kids.
#90
Those people are probably the same who Barna research called christian evangelical born agains who believe that Jesus is not the only way to heaven and that Jesus sinned.
Not everyone who calls themself a Christian is a Christian. A Christian, filled with the Holy Spirit, could not vote for someone who supports the murder of children (FOCA) who wants to silence preachers of righteousness, and who supports homosexual marriage and lifestyle. I could go on.
Neil, #88
I chose to stop it because I feel like you are getting upset and taking my stand way too personally. I still wonder aloud if Bell is a Universalist because of what he has said in this book and others. I wounder if he understands why Christ died after hearing his latest sermon posted on Mars Hills website.
I don’t think Bush intended the death of children.
I was stating the clear implication of supporting the death of children by war when you claim to “feel good about yourself when looking in the mirror for supporting war even when it’s wrong”.
I don’t get why people are so concerned with explicitly stating what someone is materially claiming.
PB,
Did you read the article?
It seems you did not.
Again, the bottom line is you are adding works (who someone votes for) to Grace. Try addressing that!
iggy
93:
Yeah, the Holy Spirit that tells you to support war even when you know it to be wrong.
Again, you bucking for the job or just adding to the Gospel?
seriously.
you said you would support a war even if you knew that war to be wrong.
How about saying that you believe certain Christians to be sorely mistaken…
I feel strongly about war, but wouldn’t say you can’t be a Christian if you support it.
I believe you’re profoundly mistaken. But I wouldn’t say you aren’t of Christ. Even if my darker impulses would like to say so…
You don’t get to take the high ground on anything, PB, if you openly acknowledge something is wrong and still support it.
There’s a world of difference between that and the person who supports what they actually think is right–even when they are mistaken.
check #71
There’s the best advice you’re gonna get all day.
PB,
I don’t think someone who confesses his willingness to kill another man illegally and immorally has the right to opine on whether an Obama supporter may be a Christian.
Seriously, what part of pray for your enemies and bless those who persecute you do you not unserstand?
#94
Fair enough. We cool?
OK… for the record it was not personal – just business… What angered me was not your stand, but your methods… your refusal to understand what it is Bell is actually talking about… your picking and choosing what you’d respond to… your switching topics when rebuttals were met.
The fact that you use his most recent book as a resource on whether or not he is a universalist proves you continue to miss the point of the book.
No reasonable person can suggest that ripping unborn children from their mother’s womb is the same as collateral damage in war. I strongly disagree with the Iraq war but people assuming they are defending the country is not the same as abortion.
You can be a Christian and vote for Obama. It may be wrong but it doesn’t reflect on your salvation.
No one, AND I MEAN NO ONE, can criticize me for who I voted for.
(It is times like these that I allow myself to wallow in a self righteous high.)
OK, at the risk of derailing the topic… what am I saying, it’s been on so many rails – who cares?
We need an example to illustrate Pastorboy’s misuse of Bell’s most recent book. Something to help him see that going to that book to see if Bell is a universlist is missing the pint of the book, since that’s not what it’s addressing.
Fill in the blanks:
Using Jesus Wants to Save Christians to judge if Bell is a universalist is like using… to judge…
Tactic: Change the subject. After tying Bell to NT Wright, and then charging that Wright was a universalist, we produced video evidence to the contrary, in direct quotation from Wright. Then, the PB smear train derailed and (apparently) decided that changing the subject was the only course of saving face, rather than reaching truth…
Using Jesus Wants to Save Christians to judge that Bell is a universalist is like using Relativity to judge if MC Escher was an architectural realist.
“I swear, Rob Bell is a universalist. I am compiling evidence as we speak!”
I am not a universalist, I believe all sinners will be saved but only in the Milky Way galaxy. So I am a galaxion. The other billions of galaxy?
So long suckers!
Chris L…What evidence?
There is a video posted in the JWTSC #3 thread in which Wright is interviewed and very clearly says he dos not believe in universalism… of any kind.
Rick,
I don’t want to play a game where we start weighing human lives lost against each other.
Children being killed is tragic, evil and wrong. I don’t think their age or obstetric status mitigates it.
Then again, if I was an unreflective literalist, I might be able to build a whole theology of child killing from the Abraham/Isaac story.
Enter, PB.
oh why would that matter, Neil and Chris L?
Seriously, after all this time and the track record found here and elsewhere, why would you ever think any form of evidence–even the words out of a person’s own mouth–would really matter?
nc – that is your construct, not mine. A man is stranded on a ledge and will fall to his death if not rescued. The rescue truck hurries to the site with sirens blaring, but because they were speeding they were involved in an accident and a driver was killed.
That is tragic, but it is not the same as shooting someone with the intent of murder. I am in stong oppostion to the Iraq war, however I do not lump all deaths in the same “intent” box.
nc, Neil and Chris L,
When PB states “what evidence?” it should be a clue that there is no win with PB as with other ODM’s.
Fact, Truth, Scripture, direct quotes all amount to nothing when they can just judge and condemn someone… they go against God’s word and pervert to their own justification… and in the end no matter it all comes out they are truly the Relativists that misuse God’s word to their own ends.
PB has shown he denies many essential doctrines and when it comes down to it, teaches things like who you vote for decides if one is a “true christian”…
To me they are either in it for the money, or just sick… or demonically influenced.
They all need serious prayer.
iggy
I don’t know if you can draw some kind of equivalency between a fire truck and a B-2 stealth bomber or any other weapon technology.
There is only one function of weapons tech.
Also, the driver had a choice to pay attention or be wherever she was.
You’re implicitly drawing a line on where we can be outraged at the death of a child.
I get what you’re trying to say…
but “intent”, after a certain point, shall we say, matters not.
It’s better for people to just be honest and say that there is a certain kind of tragedy we are ready and willing to live with.
I’d respect that “realpolitik” more than trying to raise ethical justifications/ameliorations for what is wrong.
I’ll grant that intent can matter, but “ends” are where we have to live.
Sincerity is overrated.
Chris #37:
OK, your points will be returned to you in 6-8 weeks, minus a 10% re-stocking fee.
chirp chirp chirp of the crickets.
one wonders if PB and Holy Template Disdainful Spirit are off in the 4th heaven thumb wrestling over who gets the job…
PB, your statement about going to war if your President told you to is a tad disturbing. Where would you draw the line.Hopefully you are not talking about blind obedience to an earthly authority. Here is an article for you consideration http://www.geocities.com/fountoftruth/dejavu.html
nc – you miss the point. The driver thought he was heading to save a life, and inadvertantly was involved in the accident. Soldiers think they are saving lives. Bombing Hiroshima saved in a conservative estimate 2 million lives, MOST OF WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN JAPANESE.
I share your outrage at the Iraqi war, but I do see a difference between a legitimate war of defense and abortion.
Bombing Hiroshima was still wrong.
I just wish people wouldn’t make it sound so tidy.
The world is a mess. War is another indicator of sin…and is itself an indicator of the pervasive and permeating features of sin in the world.
We may feel we have to choose it…it may even seem the “lesser” of evils, but it seems that all this talk mitigates the fact that it is still evil and sinful nonetheless.
NC,
Is all killing wrong? Do you believe any war is justified? How do you feel about Bonhoffer believing it would be for the best if he killed Hitler?
NC,
Nevermind, we were posting at the same time. I see your comment #120. I would still like an answer about the Bonhoffer thing though.
It’s just sounds like an ugly game to me.
well it was only a couple hundred thousand once you take into account radiation illnesses, etc….at least it wasn’t 2 million.
1 person is too many.
1 person is a tragedy.
people being killed for whatever reason or intent is a tragedy that I believe Christians should mourn, not attempt to justify.
C.S. Lewis even spoke of the death penalty this way. He said that when a person is put to death the Christian perspective should be one of sadness and wishing the condemned had been better and had lived out a life of redemptive value and flourishing.
This attitude is sadly absent from most Christian discourse about these things…
Even Bonhoeffer said that his choice to participate in the attempted assassination of Hitler was sin. That he was faced with an impossible choice between different kinds of sins and that it reflected the brokenness of the world. That he chose to act and cast himself on the mercy of God.
That strikes me as an possible acceptable attempt at a Christian articulation of acceptable violence.
I’ve yet to hear that…anywhere.
And that bothers me.
Bonhoeffer was honest about the ambiguity of life. I respect that he was forthright about it.
#110
Oh…I’ll have to watch it
nc,
I have gone full circle on the death penalty myself. I used to say that for some (those that are so far gone that they have become more animal than human) needed to be put down like an animal… I now see it as a sad thing and that I am personally opposed to it now.
That being said, I still see that if the law of the land states it be so if someone commits a crime that deems it should still be committed to that penalty. If I am on a jury (which I would not be picked) I would fight for a life sentence… but not the death penalty.
War is not of God. For someone to use the OT as a justification shows they miss the “why” God told Israel to war against the other nations… Those nations at one time or another were given the opportunity to turn to God and choose not to… The Amalekites were descendants of Esau and were cursed by God for their sins… and then later God used the Israelites to judge them.
I do see that God uses other nations to judge nations that are out of control yet to say those nations doing the work of judgement are Godly is so far off. Babylon was not a godly nation nor the Assyrians… yet God used them to judge Israel… and if one notices… often the Jews in captivity led the Kings to the True God… yet once they turned from God, they were judged by God.
We are not able to judge as God… and we are told not to do so. So to say America is doing God’s judgment does not mean we are godly in doing so… and need be careful in how we do war with nations if it be that God is using us.
That is the double edge sword war is… often even if we win… we still can lose.
All of that though does not prove God is pro war nor desires it… He desires repentance and humility not violence and war.
iggy
As far as the war thing ya’ll
I believe war is horrible. That said, If I were called upon to battle in this present war, right now, I would do it.
In the future, if our current president declares war on Christians in this country, I will take up arms with them. I am not going in lock step.
Talk about an unclear sentance!
iggy
Just how many government officials did Jesus mow down when they came for him? Can you give me the body count of all the people the disciples killed when they were being arrested? If our government decides to arrest Christians are we supposed to take up arms? Are the Christians in China taking up arms? Are we not called to be martyrs for Christ instead of Rambo or am I in some alternate universe here.
nc – you present questions about which there are no pat answers. No one makes it tidy, and seeing little Japanese children die a slow death due to radiation impacts me greatly.
Sin is tangential, and one sin usually begins a chain reaction. If you are attempting to convince me that this world is a mess, I reference you to my former body of work. A grieving Palestinian mother feels the same pain as her Israeli counterpart.
There won’t be any satifactory answer until He comes back.
#129 – that is the core. We as followers of Jesus Christ should avoid politics and serve Christ alone. Our involvement with governmental issues has obscured our message and caused us to compromise.
PB,
The fact that you have just admitted to valuing your political rights over the lives of men abroad speaks volumes of your character. A President may ask you to wage an unjust war, and you’re okay, but a law cutting funding to religious hospitals is over the line?
Seriously?
Well Obama’s election has accomplished one thing – Ingrid has stepped up her hyperventilating rants about gay rights, abortion, and any negative thought that wisps through her mind. I would imagine that bynow any semi-intuative person would realize that radio and blogging are having little impact against this culture shift.
And indeed, if God does not choose to open their eyes, the particulars that energize these rants will only increase. If only these gays had free will, we might be able to reach them, but alas, we are mere spectators at the divine chess match where God plays both black and white.
As ncgal55 Biblically noted, what are we called to in a culture? Political badminton? Legislative pressure? Written yelling?
How about fasting and prayer? Sacrificial love? The simple way? The painful walk of humility? Or maybe we are called to pick up our cross, dying daily to us, and share and live the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ, birthed in a trough, grown in the dust, and culminating with a gory mess and a borrowed tomb.
Why would Jesus let sinners do that to Him? Why would He not castigate them, reject them, call them names, and generally demean them without an offer of redemption? Which Jesus are we following?
133:
Barry Bonds, Rick.
Out of the park.
“divine chess match where God plays both black and white”…
what an image.
“declares war on Christians”…
tin foil hat, anyone?
Seriously…go peddle crazy somewhere else, PB. We’re all full up here, thanks to your blogging friends.
The fact you say this in a discussion of literal war, is totally bind-blowing…
it’s a disease, Neil.
I hate it when pathology masquerades as cultural exegesis.
and people say “emergents” drink Kool-aid.
Here ya go PB
What exactly do you mean? You would shoot policemen or soldiers? That is counter to the teachings of Jesus – period. I don’t have all the answers however violence is not our calling, the weapons of our warefare are not carnal, and it just may be that our greatest weapon is faithful martyrdom.
The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church.
The CMA must be different kind of church up north…
Oh please. I remember thinking in the 8th grade that if Jimmah Carter was re-elected in 1980 that it would be the last free election in the US. Bit hey, I WAS in the 8th grade. I at least had a bit of an excuse.
Yeah, Christianity is no longer revered like it was at one time (100+ years ago) and it is fair to say we get a fair amount of scorn heaped on us…..some deserved I might add, but I don’t think we are remotely close so that THIS administration or any in the foreseeable future) would declare an actual war on Christians. Methinks you think the sky is always falling such as Sister Ingrid. Regardless, my God IS in control. That is what us real Calvinists (and real Christians whether Calvies or not) believe.
As stimulating as I find it how everyone is arguing for their positions I’m posting
the lyrics for your reading pleasure. Maybe others will find it as convicting as I do every time I hear it.
I do not espouse fully the “God is in control” terminology as it is colloquially understood. No one can view the world and suggest God is contolling everything.
He may know everything, but until the end He does not control everything unless He controls the rape of 5 year old girls, the torture of innocent African boys, the murder of millions of unborn babies, and a general chaotic state of the entire world.
It must be understood that in some way God allows history to unfold affected greatly by the control of sinful man.
Rick,
I view the God is in control statement to mean that ultimately God’s plan is going to be worked out. Not that God controls the minutia of my day.
Agreed.
I found most like a good stout Guinness…
PB #54:
Jim Elliot, Steve Saint, et al, had guns with them when they were slaughtered. They shot them in the air, but didn’t use them to kill the men who eventually killed them (who only had spears). The missionaries’ reasoning was that they were ready to die (since they were going to heaven), and the killers probably weren’t.
Just sayin’….
nc #134
nc, if I was Rick, I’d come and beat the snot out of you. What a disgusting insult.
Exactly
B,
c’mon, man. I lived in SF for a bit. Giants, garlic fries, marzen bier…
mmmmmmmmmm
147 =
The incongruence between comments #147 and #148 is breathtaking. From pacifist to street brawler in one easy comment!
Rick, just pickin’ my battles.
It happened, just like I said it would. It only took 3 days, but enjoy:
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/purpose-driven-madness/rick-warren-prayed-in-the-name-of-false-christ-isa/
nc – you win the prize. Anyone with no axe to grind knows that Warren was attempting to reach Muslims with the word for Jesus in their own understanding. I’m sure many bloggers were prostrate before God in fasting and prayer all day Tuesday.
And in her dramatic way, she suggest all the blood of aborted babies are on Warren’s hands, complete with a photograph. Get ready to enjoy a continuing assault about abortion in the coming 4 years. We are called to lift up Jesus, not turning a cause into a spiritual phalanx.
BTW – President Bush never offered a bill to outlaw it.
156.
word.