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	<title>Comments on: The Seven Cities of Revelation: Ephesus, First Love</title>
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	<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/01/20/the-seven-cities-of-revelation-ephesus-first-love/</link>
	<description>Engaging the depths of God and life in the Kingdom</description>
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		<title>By: Paul C</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/01/20/the-seven-cities-of-revelation-ephesus-first-love/comment-page-1/#comment-86567</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:26:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=2213#comment-86567</guid>
		<description>Chris, I would say that it was perhaps a little more tricky than that, else Christ wouldn&#039;t have commended them for this.  For example, there was nothing to stop men declaring (much as they do today) that they had a direct commission from Christ in a dream or a &quot;road to Tarsus&quot; experience like Paul.  It seems Paul spent a lot of time, as did Peter and Jude, warning about false teachers.

Remember Hananiah (Jer 28) in the days of Jeremiah the prophet.

The reason I asked the question is because of the 2 ends of the spectrum we find ourselves, in my observation: either harshly criticizing and condemning with relish false teachers on the one hand, and accepting everyone with the name of Jesus on his lips as true, irregardless of his departure from the faith.  

2 things come to mind that I see as so critical:
- self examination (motives and a right spirit)
- true humility (as opposed to self-depracation or false humility)

The second, easily representing the core of Christ&#039;s character, seems to escape most of us (me included), as it did the Ephesian church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, I would say that it was perhaps a little more tricky than that, else Christ wouldn&#8217;t have commended them for this.  For example, there was nothing to stop men declaring (much as they do today) that they had a direct commission from Christ in a dream or a &#8220;road to Tarsus&#8221; experience like Paul.  It seems Paul spent a lot of time, as did Peter and Jude, warning about false teachers.</p>
<p>Remember Hananiah (Jer 28) in the days of Jeremiah the prophet.</p>
<p>The reason I asked the question is because of the 2 ends of the spectrum we find ourselves, in my observation: either harshly criticizing and condemning with relish false teachers on the one hand, and accepting everyone with the name of Jesus on his lips as true, irregardless of his departure from the faith.  </p>
<p>2 things come to mind that I see as so critical:<br />
- self examination (motives and a right spirit)<br />
- true humility (as opposed to self-depracation or false humility)</p>
<p>The second, easily representing the core of Christ&#8217;s character, seems to escape most of us (me included), as it did the Ephesian church.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris L</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/01/20/the-seven-cities-of-revelation-ephesus-first-love/comment-page-1/#comment-86557</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 04:24:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=2213#comment-86557</guid>
		<description>Paul,

I would also point out that one could actually test to see if one was an apostle, since you had to study under Jesus to be one.  I would also note that, at this time, there was no codified &quot;New Testament&quot;, or even canonized gospels with which to refute false apostolic claims...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul,</p>
<p>I would also point out that one could actually test to see if one was an apostle, since you had to study under Jesus to be one.  I would also note that, at this time, there was no codified &#8220;New Testament&#8221;, or even canonized gospels with which to refute false apostolic claims&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Paul C</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/01/20/the-seven-cities-of-revelation-ephesus-first-love/comment-page-1/#comment-86552</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 01:23:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=2213#comment-86552</guid>
		<description>Good comments Phil.  I agree that it is a tough balance to strike: on the one hand being vigilant and on the other maintaining the core calling we have which is love.

The tendency we have is to err on either side (become hyper-vigilant that we see everything critically and with a mote-hunting spirit or to translate love as tolerance and &quot;everything goes&quot;).  

The thing that I get out of Revelation 2 &amp; 3 is really how firm Jesus is, and how rarely these verses are taken into account when we discuss His nature and character, though these addresses might give us the clearest concept as to His righteous judgment.

We spend hours on the woman caught in adultery and other accounts, and well we should, but the balance in understanding the Lion of Judah and the Lamb of God often escapes us.  Just my 2 cents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good comments Phil.  I agree that it is a tough balance to strike: on the one hand being vigilant and on the other maintaining the core calling we have which is love.</p>
<p>The tendency we have is to err on either side (become hyper-vigilant that we see everything critically and with a mote-hunting spirit or to translate love as tolerance and &#8220;everything goes&#8221;).  </p>
<p>The thing that I get out of Revelation 2 &amp; 3 is really how firm Jesus is, and how rarely these verses are taken into account when we discuss His nature and character, though these addresses might give us the clearest concept as to His righteous judgment.</p>
<p>We spend hours on the woman caught in adultery and other accounts, and well we should, but the balance in understanding the Lion of Judah and the Lamb of God often escapes us.  Just my 2 cents.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Frueh</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/01/20/the-seven-cities-of-revelation-ephesus-first-love/comment-page-1/#comment-86551</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Frueh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 01:23:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=2213#comment-86551</guid>
		<description>Following Jesus is not hurling scathing invectives at lost sinners.

Following Jesus is not embracing a systematic theology like an idol.

Following Jesus is not trolling the secular news in search of something to criticize.

Following Jesus is not pronouncing ordained men as apostate carelessly.

Following Jesus is not speaking to the hungry without providing food.

Following Jesus is not teaching that the &quot;attack life&quot; is the &quot;abundant life&quot;.

Following Jesus is not straining at doctrinal gnats while swallowing the camels marching in your own life.

Following Jesus is not thanking God you are not like the current culture.

Following Jesus is not loving a sinner&#039;s soul while hating his guts.

Following Jesus is not consistantly reporting your own valiant stand for God&#039;s Word while you ignore your open defiance of much of the same Word.

*****

Following Jesus must be a constant journey of humility born of grace. A true followship must never have others in our windshield, we must be looking unto Him. No credit must be taken, and an open admission of our daily frailties and sins must temper our verbiage concerning others. A true follower of Jesus must re-evaluate his tone, especially when he feels led to correct.

A faithful follower must carry his cross, not just his bullhorn. A faithful follower must draw attention to Christ, and never himself. A faithful follower meditates, thinks, dwells, and assesses God&#039;s truth through the Scriptures and expresses them through a humble and contrite spirit.

A true and faithful follower of Jesus must see the gap between where he is and where Christ calls him to, as widening with each and every revelation of the Risen Christ. Any believer who sees himself closing in on His Savior has deceived himself and will attack others with little regard for their well being.

A true and faithful follower of Jesus must die...whatever that truly means and however that can be revealed in our earthly lives. I sometimes believe that kind of death is a pursuit rather than a pronounciation.

That is my answer to &quot;criteria&quot;. Let me know when you arrive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Following Jesus is not hurling scathing invectives at lost sinners.</p>
<p>Following Jesus is not embracing a systematic theology like an idol.</p>
<p>Following Jesus is not trolling the secular news in search of something to criticize.</p>
<p>Following Jesus is not pronouncing ordained men as apostate carelessly.</p>
<p>Following Jesus is not speaking to the hungry without providing food.</p>
<p>Following Jesus is not teaching that the &#8220;attack life&#8221; is the &#8220;abundant life&#8221;.</p>
<p>Following Jesus is not straining at doctrinal gnats while swallowing the camels marching in your own life.</p>
<p>Following Jesus is not thanking God you are not like the current culture.</p>
<p>Following Jesus is not loving a sinner&#8217;s soul while hating his guts.</p>
<p>Following Jesus is not consistantly reporting your own valiant stand for God&#8217;s Word while you ignore your open defiance of much of the same Word.</p>
<p>*****</p>
<p>Following Jesus must be a constant journey of humility born of grace. A true followship must never have others in our windshield, we must be looking unto Him. No credit must be taken, and an open admission of our daily frailties and sins must temper our verbiage concerning others. A true follower of Jesus must re-evaluate his tone, especially when he feels led to correct.</p>
<p>A faithful follower must carry his cross, not just his bullhorn. A faithful follower must draw attention to Christ, and never himself. A faithful follower meditates, thinks, dwells, and assesses God&#8217;s truth through the Scriptures and expresses them through a humble and contrite spirit.</p>
<p>A true and faithful follower of Jesus must see the gap between where he is and where Christ calls him to, as widening with each and every revelation of the Risen Christ. Any believer who sees himself closing in on His Savior has deceived himself and will attack others with little regard for their well being.</p>
<p>A true and faithful follower of Jesus must die&#8230;whatever that truly means and however that can be revealed in our earthly lives. I sometimes believe that kind of death is a pursuit rather than a pronounciation.</p>
<p>That is my answer to &#8220;criteria&#8221;. Let me know when you arrive.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Miller</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/01/20/the-seven-cities-of-revelation-ephesus-first-love/comment-page-1/#comment-86550</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 00:45:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=2213#comment-86550</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;How do you envision this and by what criteria do you think they rendered judgment? Is there a practical application to this discernment today?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well, I think within the context of that whole section, it may be not the best compliment.  In many ways it does remind me of segments of the American church.  There are people who are very passionate about doctrine and &quot;discernment&quot;, but yet they seem to exhibit so little in the way love - exactly what the church in Ephesus is being chastised for.

The problem with seeing everything critically is that is simply easy to become nothing more than a critic.  It can prevent a person from really experiencing and exhibiting the love of Christ if they aren&#039;t careful.  Jesus said we are to be as wise as serpents but as gentle as doves.  So, like many things it needs to be a both/and situation, not an either/or.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>How do you envision this and by what criteria do you think they rendered judgment? Is there a practical application to this discernment today?</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, I think within the context of that whole section, it may be not the best compliment.  In many ways it does remind me of segments of the American church.  There are people who are very passionate about doctrine and &#8220;discernment&#8221;, but yet they seem to exhibit so little in the way love &#8211; exactly what the church in Ephesus is being chastised for.</p>
<p>The problem with seeing everything critically is that is simply easy to become nothing more than a critic.  It can prevent a person from really experiencing and exhibiting the love of Christ if they aren&#8217;t careful.  Jesus said we are to be as wise as serpents but as gentle as doves.  So, like many things it needs to be a both/and situation, not an either/or.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Frueh</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/01/20/the-seven-cities-of-revelation-ephesus-first-love/comment-page-1/#comment-86549</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Frueh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 00:44:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=2213#comment-86549</guid>
		<description>I believe that verse applies mainly to &quot;apostles&quot; that preached another Jesus and/or departed from the gospel of grace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe that verse applies mainly to &#8220;apostles&#8221; that preached another Jesus and/or departed from the gospel of grace.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul C</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/01/20/the-seven-cities-of-revelation-ephesus-first-love/comment-page-1/#comment-86548</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 00:18:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=2213#comment-86548</guid>
		<description>BTW, not trying to open a discussion re the ODMs, but get your take on this verse and how it applies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW, not trying to open a discussion re the ODMs, but get your take on this verse and how it applies.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul C</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/01/20/the-seven-cities-of-revelation-ephesus-first-love/comment-page-1/#comment-86546</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 00:11:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=2213#comment-86546</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

How do you envision this and by what criteria do you think they rendered judgment?  Is there a practical application to this discernment today?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. </p></blockquote>
<p>How do you envision this and by what criteria do you think they rendered judgment?  Is there a practical application to this discernment today?</p>
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		<title>By: nc</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/01/20/the-seven-cities-of-revelation-ephesus-first-love/comment-page-1/#comment-86545</link>
		<dc:creator>nc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 00:09:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=2213#comment-86545</guid>
		<description>Just a little FYI:

Pagitt&#039;s facebook status recently took issue with the cries of &quot;o-bam-a&quot;, he said it sounds too much like something in a dictatorship (i.e. personality cult). He said people need to &quot;watch that&quot;...

yep, those unreflective emergent idolaters...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a little FYI:</p>
<p>Pagitt&#8217;s facebook status recently took issue with the cries of &#8220;o-bam-a&#8221;, he said it sounds too much like something in a dictatorship (i.e. personality cult). He said people need to &#8220;watch that&#8221;&#8230;</p>
<p>yep, those unreflective emergent idolaters&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: nc</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/01/20/the-seven-cities-of-revelation-ephesus-first-love/comment-page-1/#comment-86544</link>
		<dc:creator>nc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 00:07:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=2213#comment-86544</guid>
		<description>#6

regardless of party and/or policies regarding abortion.

;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#6</p>
<p>regardless of party and/or policies regarding abortion.</p>
<p> <img src='http://prophets-priests-poets.info/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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