Just because something was written in 1923 doesn’t mean it is of value, nor does it mean it is right. Just because the title of the book has the words ‘Christianity’ and ‘liberalism’ in the title, doesn’t mean the author, in 1923, was speaking to same issues we are confronted with in 2009. It doesn’t mean the quote is bad or wrong either. Machen was an outstanding scholar and preacher.
That said, here is the thesis of my short post: Machen was addressing a different issue altogether than the one Pastor-Teacher Silva thinks he was addressing; therefore, Silva is, in my opinion, wrong and his case is not substantiated by the quote he provides.
The title of the post is ‘The Emergence Gospel of Good Deeds.’ The post goes on to spout off a quote written by J Gresham Machen. It is sad to me that Machen’s legacy has been tarnished by the opening sentence of Pastor-Teacher Silva’s post:
If you still think that this reimagined and repainted inclusive squishy social gospel of good deeds preached by postliberals like Rob Bell is something new; you’d better think again.
Actuallllly…..the ‘Gospel of Good Deeds’ didn’t arise with Rob Bell (Oh, by the way. I watched my first ever Nooma video the other day; ‘Rain.’ The woman at the book store told me, “I have a friend who bought [a particular Nooma video] and showed it to a unbeliever and ‘won him to the Lord.’” I also showed it to the FCA group I help lead at the middle school. It led us into a time of prayer. Amazing. One of the other adult leaders commented how it moved her because her family had gone through almost the same situation recently and her husband was feeling badly about it.) But I digress. The so-called ‘Gospel of Good Deeds’ didn’t arise from any so-called ‘emergent’ theologian. This is just bad, bad misrepresentation of Bell among others as I’ll show in a minute.
I think it is best summed up by NT Wright when he writes, “What are we waiting for? And what are we going to do about it in the meantime?” (Surprised By Hope, xi) What would they have us do, sit around doing nothing? Are we supposed to eschew good deeds? Are we supposed to sit back in our comfortable faith, clutching the pews, while we wait, staring at the sky? No. The angel confronted the disciples, in Acts 1, and said, ‘Why are standing here staring at the sky? He’ll come back. But you: Get busy!’ (I’m paraphrasing just a bit since Jesus had just told them they would be witnesses and there they stood.) He doesn’t mean for us to be do nothings–and I would say that merely sitting around the ‘ministry office’ collecting receipts is not a ‘good deed’ as Christ defined it. I like how Bell has said it, “Jesus wants to save our church from thinking that the priests are somebody else.” (Jesus Wants to Save Christians, 178) Amen.
Would the good Rev Silva have us to do nothing because someone in 1923 seemed to be saying do nothing? Or was Machen fighting another battle? Bell, as far I understand him, is not saying we should ‘abandon historic doctrines of Christ (which are found only in Scripture; not in the creeds or theologies formulated by the church) in order to promoted a new social agenda’. He is saying, I believe echoing Wright, ‘the fact of the resurrection changed everything and we have no reason to sit around doing nothing. While we wait, he has work for us to do.’ I can hear the angel now, “Why do you sit there, staring at a computer screen, doing nothing, complaining about folks like Bell, Wright and Warren who are out living a resurrection driven life? Oh. I see. You disagree with their methods. You disagree with their different types of thought and life. Oh. OK. You’re justified.” Angelic aside: *Right.*
To be sure, Machen was warring against something entirely different in 1923 than what our esteemed colleague and friend Pastor-Teacher Silva says because folks like Wright, Warren, Bell and others have not denied or thwarted cardinal doctrines of historic Christian faith. No doubt some today have and no one denies it. Those Machen argued against in his book had done so since he was warring against a particular liberal version of modernism that had ransacked the church; Machen was right. As Machen himself wrote, “There is much interlocking of the branches, but the two tendencies, Modernism and supernaturalism, or (otherwise designated) non-doctrinal religion and historic Christianity, spring from different roots.” (see previous link.)
This is exactly where Machen’s war and Silva’s war are different: The roots are not different in our day. In fact, I might go so far as to say that many, like Bell and Warren, would actually agree with Machen because they too would reject such a liberal modernism as he warred against. (I could be wrong.)
Getting back to that idea of ‘good deeds’ and where its origins are found. Here’s what I remember from Scripture:
“You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. (Matthew 5:14-16)
Then I also remembered this:
The sins of some men are obvious, reaching the place of judgment ahead of them; the sins of others trail behind them. 25In the same way, good deeds are obvious, and even those that are not cannot be hidden. (1 Timothy 5:24-25)
And then there’s this:
Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. (Hebrews 10:23-25)
And oh, don’t forget about this doozy:
Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life. (1 Timothy 6:17-19)
And finally:
“Be careful not to do your ‘acts of righteousness’ before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. (Matthew 6:1-4)
If good deeds is a part of the so-called ‘emergent’ theology heralded and promoted by preachers such as Rob Bell, then I guess Jesus was emergent and so was Paul because they both seemed to think that good deeds should be a part of our continual practice as we Christians wait.
In conclusion: I don’t think the out of context quote provided by the Rev. Pastor-Teacher Silva today proves his point in any way. The roots may have been different in Machen’s day, but they are not (at least in the case of Bell, Warren, Wright, and many others that ADM’s hate) in our day. Pastor-Teacher Silva needs to go back and regroup. His condemnation is unjust and unfounded. His quote is meaningless to his cause.
*I used Bell as the example here since that is who P-T (Barnum) Silva used in his article.
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
151 Comments(+Add)
There. Fixed it.
We need to take the log out of our own eye over here.
Silva’s article on the new Emergent Gospel of Good deeds is right; for even in Bell’s writings (as Well as NT Wright) you must admit he does focus on social
justicemercy and the social Gospel. What has God called us to do? What is He redeeming us for? So we can make this world a better place so that it will look more like the newly restored heaven and earth when Jesus comes.The problem I have with that (I am repeating myself) is that you must MUST have a proclamation of truth in order for it to be called evangelism or proclamation of the Gospel. Oprah can give someone a drink of water. Oprah can build a well. Oprah cannot spread the Gospel that whe can be saved from sin and death because of the love of God demonstrated in Jesus Christ. The focus of Bell and many of his ilk is the redistribution of wealth to the poor (VERY clear in JWTSC) and this redistribution of wealth may save people who live here on this earth, but it will not save them, or the people who give them the wealth. It is by the grace of God alone that we are saved. PERIOD.
You’ve not fixed it at all, PB…
apples and oranges…
Anyone who rejects the gospel of faith in favor of good deeds must be avoided as a false teacher. However, if someone is suggesting that a vibrant and demostrative life of hospitality and humanitarian efforts can provide an effective climate that both enhance the sharing of the gospel message while simultaneously creating a spiritual curiosity about our motivation, well, that is not only a good thing, it’s a Jesus thing.
Oh, yes.
The problem, PB, is that that is exactly NOT what Bell or Wright or Warren are saying. That is exactly the point of my post and exactly why Silva is wrong.
# 3
Amen Rick
#2
Exactly how so, Chris? It is just changing the names. You folks spend a lot of time around here casting stones when you are ODM’s yourself in the sense that you criticize other Christians, just from the other side.
Oprah could do those things. Sure. Who said she can’t. But she doesn’t do them specifically because she is a Christian person of faith. She does them for the sake of Oprah. We do them for the sake of the poor, for the glory of God. Or, we do them for Jesus without even knowing it is Jesus we are doing them for (he told a parable about this too). Jesus didn’t say anything about preaching in that parable. He just said: You came, you visited, you gave, you helped. Never said, “you made sure you preached as you did.”
So also with Matthew 5: We do our good deeds and our good deeds speak for us, for God.
And Micah said something about it too.
I guess I have issue with the critics of the “social gospel” who use the original definition and do not see that when it is used now it does not mean leave out Jesus.
One example that comes to mind is Shane Claiborne who if anyone really reads him is Jesus centered in his social gospel.
The point I see missed it that Jesus met people where they were and at their need. He healed the blind, sick and fed the hungry… all as he was about doing the work of the Father according to the Father’s will. When I read Ken and Ingrid and even PB, often they ignore this part of the Gospel… that doing these things are signs of the Kingdom message that JEsus gave. It did not end with JEsus as Jesus now lives in us and continues the work of the Father in and through us. The book of Acts is not about the apostles, but about the continuation of the works of God done through Christ in the apostles.
I see that often the attempt at so called “balance” is really an attempt at swinging the pendulum against social justice and acts. That seems so contrary to the gospel as without these works of love, we are just banging gongs… which is what I hear whenever I read most ODM’s.
PB–I didn’t cast any stones at Pastor-Teacher Reverend Silva. I merely pointed out that his use of that quote did not suit the ends he had hoped. I debated an idea, complete with a thesis statement and demonstrated (at least in my own mind) that he is wrong. That’s hardly an attack or a log-jam.
It’s an act of mercy.
#4
Amen to the scripture, but BS!! on the
because that is exactly what they are saying.
The next ‘Nooma’ you should get is Bullhorn, where Bell excoriates and builds a strawman street preacher to emphasize his disdain for evangelism. warren and Bell (and others) all too often abandon the preaching of the good news for the purpose of doing ‘good works’
good works without faith is dead.
Warren example: He will work with any religious/governmental/ social group to feed and give aid, even if it means he cannot preach the Gospel because of the involvement of government.
Bell example: NOWHERE in JWTSC (so far) does he encourage us to proclaim the Gospel in concert with these ‘good works’. It is all about building the ‘kingdom of god’ on this earth. How do we do that? Redistribute wealth.
Give me a break!
hahahahah! If only you could actually speak about something you actually knew.
hahahahahaha
I’ve just been reading a book about the history of Christian theology (I’m not that far yet), but the one thing that I found interesting about the apostolic fathers (men who actually studied under the apostles) is that much of their writing is focused on telling Christians how they should live. It’s to the point that most people would call it legalistic today, because they actually make it sound like a person loses or gains salvation through what they do.
Now, the author is clear to point out that none of these men believed in salvation through works, but they were correcting Christians who seemed to think their faith didn’t require action. So it’s interesting to me that this issue has been around from the very conception of the church.
It’s as if there are always voices that are trying to push Christians to live like differently, but there are always people who accuse them of pushing salvation through works. There’s nothing new under the sun, in other words.
That is what God did with Israel… why do you think it won’t work now? Does God’s word return void? Does He change?
Again this is the banging gong and misrepresentation I stated above… and in the end we might as well just mail out tracts to the world watch it die and be soooo happy we did someting.
God forgive us all.
Faith without deeds is dead…
iggy
There is a point that is being missed in all of this: right now we are entering into an era of “do-gooding” that the world has never seen. It would appear that the ungodly are just as eager (if not more so) to get involved in acts of kindness as children of God.
On inauguration day, my company of 3000 employees launched this website in the spirit of Obama’s call to service: http://pledge5.starbucks.com
The problem is the motive: the world does acts of kindness for legacy, to be seen of men, to feel good about itself, to have its name on a plaque.
The challenge I see is somewhat similar with large Christian movements that are literally sounding a trumpet every time they do something wonderful.
God will be the judge and weigh the motives in the balance of His justice.
We ARE called to good works, to good deeds, to patient continuance in well-doing, but the glory must be for the Lord ( a very, very tricky area that causes each one to examine himself ).
#6
The emergent great commission:
Mark 16:15 And he said to them,“Go into all the world and
proclaim the gospelfeed, clothe, give water to, and housetothe whole creation.18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority i in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and
make disciplesfeed people of all nations,baptizingbuilding wells for them in the name of theFather and of the Son and of the Holy Spiritcompassion, 20 teaching them toobserve all that I have commanded yourely on your kindness, while helping sustainability. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”8 But you will receive
powerwhen the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be mywitnessesfood, clothing, and water distributors in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”So very sad.
False. There was no strawman there – I walked past “that guy” all the time on the Purdue Memorial Mall daily for 4 years and occasionally after that, during my 10 years in West Lafayette. Except that he was more obnoxious than what Bell showed in “Bullhorn”
Speaking of BS, you seem to be shoveling a lot of it here…
But of course, if those people who were fed and healed happen to live longer as a result (which is kind of the point), then missionaries who follow behind will have the ability to share with those who would otherwise be dead…
a) that wasn’t the point.
b) if you have to preach the gospel independent of the works you are doing, then it’s quite likely the works that you are doing aren’t what you ought to be up to…
c) To repeat: The gospel isn’t a viral marketing plan for fire insurance…
#10
I have watched that Nooma, beginning to end, several times. I see nothing but disdain for evangelism, along with a straw man built of evangelists.
How unloving.
BtW – evangelism isn’t constrained to standing on a corner, shouting at passers-by…
#16 – no straw man. I’ve seen ‘em…
Well, anyone who has read what I’ve written here as far as politics should know that I’m against governmental redistribution wealth for the most part, but Jesus clearly does command Christians to redistribute their wealth. The early Christians in Acts had everything in common, and they did it willingly.
The Kingdom of God is something we live in everyday, so evangelism through demonstration and speaking will just come naturally. Bell is not against speaking to people about God. He’s against being an ass and claiming you speak for God.
It’s amazing to me (OK, not really anymore) that you will so obviously distort Scripture to make it say what you want it o say. Actually the typical Jewish mindset would be that participating in the right actions can lead one to the right belief. It’s not that our works can save us, but doing the right thing can point us in the right direction and show us our need for a savior.
If that is the case, Chris, you should have put your arm around him and said brother, here is where I think you are doing it wrong. Or, perhaps, you should have demonstrated the ‘right’ way. None the less, God used an ass to preach, so he can use the WORST preacher to change peoples hearts.
A good point, Chris, however the church is very well equipped and suited to do grandiose humanitarian acts without secular help. Step one might be for the church to examine itself in the slight of stewardship. Just a three year moratorium of buildins would provide BILLIONS for feeding the poor.
It isn’t either/or when discussing cooperating with non-religious groups, its that we can and should do it ourselves. To suggest that God hasn’t blessed His people with emough to obey His commands without secular help is to indict God.
I have seen the many men who were worse than the bullhorn guy in real life as well. And trust, you can’t tell these guys anything. Putting your arms around one of them would most likely get you punched in the face. They’re usually big bullies. They may have good intentions, but they’re flat out wrong.
Even if God, can use them, pragmatism is not the measurement of the rightness and wrongness of something.
How do you know the typical Jewish mindset? Something you Created like NT Wright for the purpose of changing what Justification is? Give me a break. You or I do not know the typical Jewish mindset. And Chris L doesn’t either, no matter what he says. All we can do is study, and make a real good educated guess. That said, right belief shapes right actions. Our trust in Christ is reflected in what we do and our motives for doing it.
Unfortunately, for many, even the Pharisees in Jesus day, believed they were doing the right things (observing the law) for the right reasons (to honor and to please God, to make themselves right in His eyes) and became self righteous, and could not see their need for a Savior.
It is true today also.
PB – I find it interesting that when Jesus quotes Deut 6:4, he adds “all your mind” to the list of heart, soul, and strength.
Why does he do this?
From his contemporary teachers, we find that Hellenism was separating the way people viewed action (strength). Prior to the introduction of Hellenism, the Jewish mind viewed action and belief as one – the way you acted demonstrated your belief. Post-Hellenism, belief was treated as something that could be compartmentalized from action. This view had already caught on with secular Jews (Herodians, primarily) and the Sadducees.
Thus, the confusion that arose when the gospel was brought to Gentiles.
Was it faith or works? Yes – both.
The key difference between Oprah offering water and Warren offering water is the one is done in Oprah’s name (or in the name of humanism), and the other in Jesus’.
So how many street preachers have you approached? How many times have they punched you in the face?
STRAWMAN ALERT
Peace, out…I gotta go to work…
I’ve met both kinds of street preachers, and I have done street/beach preaching myself.
I read Bell’s bullhorn guy as a statement of methodology, effectiveness, and tone.
It’s called research, PB. The Dead Sea Scrolls, Josephus, other first-century writers, the Talmudic preservation of Hillel, Choni, Gamaliel, etc., etc.
We’ve got plenty of evidence of first century context.
The most plain evidence is in Jesus’ alteration of the shema (which was not considered controversial, at all) (see #24)
Interestingly enough Bullhorn is the next Nooma I will watch. I bought them both on the same day!
I know one of them got escorted off of Purdue’s campus a few years ago for getting into a physical altercation.
I would also note that after my first encounter with “Brother Max”, I tried to approach him as a Christian, and got shouted down as a pagan headed for hell, because I was attending a secular university. No Christian would be a member of such a place, we were all informed…
STRAWMAN ALERT
“I could while away the hours,
Conferrin’ with the flowers…
The same way we know how anyone thought in antiquity – by studying writings and history of that era. It’s not a huge mystery. Even orthodox Jews today think that faith and action are closely tied together.
Actually, the Pharisees that Jesus disagreed with were talking the talk, but not walking the walk, so to speak. They were more concerned with the letter of the law opposed to the spirit. Had they been faithful to the spirit, Jesus probably would not have been that upset with them.
That’s basically the point Jesus is making in Luke 11. Look at what He says here:
He says if they actually do what the Law says, by giving to the poor, “everything will be clean” for them. He’s not promoting legalism, but just pointing out that a right action will guide one’s heart.
#16
You have no idea how that man feels about evangelism, only that he disdains the method you employ.
BTW, you seem a tad touchy today, take your meds. If you’ve run out email Rick, I understand he sells them to those in need as part of his universal help plan
Throught the Old and New Testament the care for the poor seems to be a priority. Not so much today. Some seem to suggest that certain camps fight against the gospel message while others seem to fight against feeding the poor.
No one can be saved but by faith in Jesus Christ.
Feeding the poor is a command of God.
Now what is the problem here?
Phil,
re: #11 What’s the name of the book. Sounds interesting.
Anyone who rejects that, in this life, good deeds are the telos of our salvation has rejected the authority of Scripture for their lives and is apostate.
Consider the plain meaning of this passage from Ephesisans:
“…in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
It is clear. Submit to the Truth of the Word. Stop denying that the telos of the Gospel made real in our lives today is to do good works. They are prepared by God’s eternal decree in advance.
You are rebelling against the sovereignty and command of God when you use rhetoric that marginalizes the clear call of the innerrant, infallible, inspired, very Word of God.
To emphasize the Truth that the Gospel is also social to communities of faith that have sinfully rebelled against their divinely commanded responsibilities is not a betrayal of the Gospel.
Rather, it is a corrective to the spiritualizing rebellion of those very communities that sin against God by using the term “social gospel” as a pejorative, thus betraying the clear witness of Scripture.
They also implicitly bear false witness by their characterizations when the explicit writings of Walter Rauschenbach–who coined the term “social gospel”– clearly stated that the spiritual and the physical proclamation of the Gospel must go together.
Stop sinning against God and leading the spiritualizing pietist rebellion against the Word of God that implicitly denies the salvation of the body and not just the soul.
I call you to repent.
phew…
how do they do it?
That takes effort.
I’ll hand it to Kenny and the other imams. It takes a certain kind of strength to sound off at that level.
No wonder they’re crabby. Tantrums take energy.
Maybe all they need is a nap after their graham crackers and juice.
I just don’t get why some like PB insist that emergents preach good deeds without Jesus… really I guess ignorance is bliss…
But the reality is that Jesus is the motivation for emergents as well as those emerging in why they call out for doing good works. It is people like PB who insist this is not true that do harm to so many with his constant lies. He seems only out to harm others ministries, families and churches with his lies without care to really understand and look at ways to present the gospel.
He claims he supports different ministries that do things like dig wells and funny thing is I believe he did, yet if it involved anyone he deems as not a true believer (I guess he is the new judge of all men’s hearts) then it is wrong.
Really I am so tired of PB’s ignorance and insults against what he has no idea what he is speaking against.
It is one thing to be like Oprah who is out for her own glory, and another to attack and lie about others who guided by the Scripture, seek to bring about what God is doing in Heaven also on earth… as Jesus prayed.
I am disgusted in PB and others like him who out right speak against the scriptures teaching to do the work of God now… out of Love for others… to them it is all about “winning souls” and getting another notch of glory in their own belts as they do it…
How many souls have I saved today, yesterday tomorrow…. hopefully NONE! as I can save no one… only Jesus saves us.
iggy
PB,
I suggest a great book in understanding what God wants and desires as far as the Gospel and social justice…
THE BIBLE! READ IT!
iggy
A very good thought. As long as those good works are not redemptive in themselves, but are viewed as the conduits through which God opens hearts, expresses His love through believers, and creates spiritual thirts in sinners.
Troy,
The book is The Story of Christian Theology: Twenty Centuries of Tradition & Reform by Roger Olson. It’s over 600 pages long, and I’m still less than a 100 in. So far it’s been very interesting.
Phil – e-mail me with any big word questions.
Re #1
Once again Pastorboy has shown his failure to comprehend and articulate what Bell and Wright mean and proclaim and call people to do.
True.
But we do not questions anyone’s status as a believer based on our own culture as a standard – as they do.
We openly admit we address the methods of others while maintaining the distinction between what people believe and what people do – they do not.
We do not assume that our way is the way that most pleases God – as they do.
We do not assume motives, twist meanings, partially quote, build straw men… – as they do.
Other than that we’re exactly alike.
More adventures in missing the point…
Rick,
In regards to some of your recent comments, the balance between holiness and salvation is a hard thing to teach. Although Paul explicitly claims that salvation comes through faith in Christ, James says that your faith is dead without works (I read that to mean that your faith will produce the fruit of good works; no good fruit=dead faith). Don’t know if your familier with Keith Greens music, but his song about the Sheep and Goats never fails to get me thinking. He beautifully travels through the passage that Christ teaches regarding how we treated Jesus when he was sick, hungry, in prison, etc…right into how Jesus will separate the sheep and the goats. He emphatically ends the song with the claim that the only difference between the sheep (saved) and goats (not saved) is what they did and didn’t do; although both groups claim to have the same faith. Just food for thought.
BtW…thanks, Phil, for the book info. I’ll look into it.
From what I can tell it is the feeding the poor part… More specifically, following PB’ian logic, if you encourage others to feed the poor but omit an explicit encouragement to proclaim a certain set of truth as well… you deny said truths.
Just finished ‘Bullhorn.’
Having trouble seeing what the problem is with that video.
You know what it is for me, is that for so long I was tethered to this idea that being a Christian insulated me from the hurt, pain and suffering of the outside world. Then one day, the things I had read in the Bible just didn’t seem to match up any longer with what is reality and practice.
What I think I have found in people like NT Wright and Rob Bell is freedom to live the Resurrection life. It’s where the crucifixion driven life meets with the resurrection driven life.
It makes much better sense than to live an insulated life where my hands never get dirty and my only responsibility is to the sheep. the Resurrection driven life frees us to live and serve even and especially the least of these.
Conversion in any plastic sense is not the goal. That is the job of Jesus anyhow. We plant. We water. He makes it grow. Frankly, that seems a very reformed idea to me. What power to I have to convert anyone?
Bullhorn Guy! What a trip.
Love wins.
Love without an agenda. It’s amazing that I came to these ideas myself long before I ever watched a Rob Bell Nooma video. All I did was read the Bible.
Funny to me is this insistence on the unbiblical idea of “balance”…
Here’s some balance in the response of the sheep in the parable of the sheep and goats. Out of Matt 25:
Both did not know they served Jesus… but one did the work and one did not. It was not the work that was done but to who it was done to… and Jesus says that it was done unto Him.
Meanwhile the goats state the same question but a different answer is given:
Sad that PB and others think that we must always share teh gospel… it seems that these sheep did not all the time… in fact they seem to not even realzie at times they were serving Jesus!
Yet, according to PB, these sheep are the “Emergent” goats…
good grief.
Jerry,
Love without agenda is tough to comprehend for some… when God started working on me about it, it was tough… I had so many different agendas.
Yet, it freed me to love others… sometimes we have agendas that even sound good… like inviting someone to church. That isn’t bad, yet sometimes our motives are. We can want someone to come to our church for reasons like… church growth, showing others that we get people to come to OUR church, want the pastor to be impressed… or to have the pastor do the work for us… and in the end never have truly loved that person with God’s love.
This often to me is the “wrong” in the bullhorn guy… I cannot tell you what some individual motives are. Yet, some (as I did) do this for reasons other than that they truly love people. I have talked to some that seem to not like people and are out to just condemn sinners…. Like Brother Jed and sister Cindy…
As they “preached” their gospel, I asked them to share the “good news” of what Jesus had done to saved sinners… I pointed out that most here in the crowd already know they sin, but do not know the cure for it… Cindy’s response was this…
“You marshmallow.””
To this day I laugh but find it obvious they were not there to save sinners, but to condemn them… they never gave a “salvation presentation”…
Jed’s gospel was something like this. “Abortion is a sin and you will go to hell… you are all fornicators and will go to hell… Only true Christians are capitalists” and so on… but not once did they tell of Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection.
I have come across others who preach “hell” but never give the salvation message… I have given up confronting them as they are content with judging and condemning…
iggy
The bottom line is that if Jesus didn’t come to condemn the world, and that from his own mouth, who am I to think I have been given such a mandate?
It was about a year ago that my eyes were truly opened to the word Grace.
I cannot believe had radically different my life has been since I discovered what was always there beating me in the heart. I cannot believe I missed grace.
Funny how some’s entire ministry is about condemnation and judgement and pointing out sin…
Judging other pastors and their churches.
condemning those pastors and churches and often by doing that their families.
and all that to share the good news that they are sinners and going to hell…
They are without grace, compassion… or love…. and seem to have an agenda contrary to scripture.
And PB has yet to tell if he thinks Ingrid heads a ministry.
iggy
I wonder if PB can make a point w/o belittling someone? A brother in Christ no less.
huh, who knew historical/contextual work was “making stuff up”?
nc,
I guess one could just make things up like PB… LOL!
It must be easier than NT Wright’s 20 yrs of studying Paul’s writings or Chris L taking the time to research a post.
iggy
Jerry – #53 is the question of the ages. If soemone’s heresy/sin/error come TO my ears, I would address it within the confines of my own multi-faceted non-compliance to what I already know, in other words, humility.
But is there such a thing as being called to SEEK the sin/error/heresy in others? Is not seeking Jesus a full time and expanding adventure that demands our own time, and infact consistantly reveals His glory and our own sin/error/heresy?
The ministry of condemnation was the law, the ministry of the Spirit is full of grace.
PB,
I dont know much about Bell,but I do know NT Wright and you are talking out of your ignorence regarding Wright.
Neil,
Did you say, “PB’an”. That ranks up there with Silvanized.
Jerry
especially if we’re talking about PB’an J…
Without love there is nothing.
I meant “PB’ian”
Without Love You Are Nothing by Larry Norman:
You can be a righteous rocker, you can be a holy roller
You could be most anything,
You could be a Leon Russell, or a super muscle,
You could be a corporate king,
You could be a wealthy man from Texas, or a witch with heavy hexes,
But without love, you ain’t nothing without love
Without love you ain’t nothing, without love.
You could be a brilliant surgeon, or a sweet young virgin,
or a harlot out to sell,
You could learn to play the blues, or be Howard Hughes
or the scarlet pimpernel,
Or you could be a French provincial midwife,
or go from door to door with a death-knife,
But without love you ain’t nothing, without love,
Without love you ain’t nothing, without love.
You could be a woman feeler, or a baby stealer,
you could drink your life away,
Or you could be a holy prophet, get a blessing off it,
Or you could fast for fifty days,
You could shake hands with the devil, or give your life to God on the level,
But without love you ain’t nothing, without love,
Without love you ain’t nothing, without love
Great song, Iggy.
And a Scarlett Pimpernel sighting as well!
or is it “PB’an”
OK- I did say “PB’ian” – but maybe it should be “PB’an.” – arrrrgh….
Speaking of love, there is a TV movie on Lifetime tomorrow at 9PM called “Prayers for Bobby”. It is true story of how a young man told his mother he was gay and because of her church, and wanting to protect him from the visciousness that some Christians spew, she would not accept him and he eventually commited suicide.
Without getting into Biblical doctrine concerning homosexuality, we should be discussing more and more about showing love and compassion for people with same sex attractions. I feel strongly that much of the evangelical world has projected hate to these people, and the church as a whole is standing by without entering into a serious dialogue on just how we reach out to gays.
People like Ingrid are getting the press, and people like Peggy Campalo seem to be headed for the other extreme. But we as the followers of Jesus should be diligently seeking the leading of the Spirit in our dealings with gay people, and if we can widen our redemptive approach it just may impact our entire walk.
Much talk about love, but what are the practical revelations of that spoken love when it comes to sinners who practice “unorthodox” sin? That kind of love is dangerous and openly runs the risk of the label “condoning”, which all too many believers will rush to attach.
It seemed Jerry missed this in his post, and it is important to the
conversationdialogueLook guys, no one from the ODM side is arguing that we should not participate in good works. James is very clear, faith without works is dead. But the opposite is also true; works without faith is dead. We can add nothing to our salvation by doing good works, but good works are the mark of salvation.
Ephesians 2:8-10 is true; we are created in Christ Jesus to do good works. But it is after a work of grace by faith (which is not of ourselves) it is a gift of God.
So all that we do after salvation is not about us, and its not even about the people we serve: It is about God and His glory. If it is not, these are the works that will be burned up.
Rick,
When I was a kid, I thought Larry Norman was talking about some early Superhero when he sang “The Scarlett Pimpernel” like… “Only the Shadow Knows”…
I credit Larry for guiding me through his music to salvation… I did meet him about 10-12 yrs ago and also spent time with his parents… they were cool… old style AoG people. I helped them do some work around their house when they moved from San Jose to Oregon. I almost went with them to help on both ends.
Larry was a strange and wonderful person… I was shocked when we met him and he saw my wife… he just sort of stared at her and then said, “You are so striking”… LOL! I was not sure what to make of that…
His music (though rapture oriented) had a huge affect on me. If it was not for that long -haired -hippie- rockin’ -folk singer… I would not have accepted Jesus as I did not believe “rockers” would be accepted in church… but I was.
iggy
Then why do you and others make such a big fuss and misrepresent people like Shane Claiborne and the exhortation of Brian McLaren, Jim Wallis and Tony Campolo to put feet and action to our faith?
It sounds to me like you should be applauding them for at least that!
iggy
And when have you ever heard of me (this emergetn guy) ever say otherwise? I hve yet to hear one other “emergent” let alone anyone emerging state otherwise… in fact this is ALWAYS the underlying motivation… that we do the good works we were created to do in Christ by faith…
Sheesh!
And then after we state that… You and your “friends” attack me and all these other people with lies and slander and claim we do it without Jesus…
iggy
#72
Because those fellows, from their writings and their speeches believe something entirely different from the orthodox Christian faith. Some of their views are antithetical to the Bible.
I’ve never heard Bell nor Wright even hint that good works add to salvation – not in the sense of getting saved. I think they do add to our salvation – not in the sense of getting saved, but being saved… I suspect this is what Bell and Wright mean. Which is a distinction the modernist ADM mind ignores or misses.
It seems to me that when you say “works without faith is dead” couple with your complaint that no Gospel call was referenced in JWTSC – that goods works are only valid if a Gospel call (in the classic modernist sense) is made.
Your inability to back up such statements… and your ability to ignore evidence when proven wrong is mind-boggling.
Maybe both Bell and Wright (and probably me) hold interpretations you think are antithetical to the Bible. But you have yet to show any evidence that they hold positions that are in opposition to historical orthodox Christianity.
In other words, any differences are “in-house” debates.
I am beginning to the place of “if you like him read him, if not don’t” view. The attack/defense method of dialogue gets tired after a while. If those guys are emphasizing works as a definite enhancement to the gospel of Christ, that is a good thing.
Some see it that way, some do not. Someone once said,
“What is that to you? Follow Me”.
This church cut back on the American Christmas and spent it on Africa.
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/advent.conspiracy.telling.the.christmas.story.better/22080.htm
From what I have seen from the ADM/Modernist mindset they operatre from with this truism as a premise:
A: If a cup of cold water is given in the name of Jesus,
B: but a Gospel tract is not given at the same time,
then C: the cup of water is not a valid good work and the giver should be rebuked.
#75
No, Neil, what I am saying that as an outpouring of the love of God in ones life, they will do good works, one of which is to share the good news that Jesus Christ died for sinners, that we can have our sins forgiven and be justified and redeemed, and brought to new life in Him.
If you are doing that good work, and you see a poor or hungry person, give them physical aid, out of that same heart of love. If you are in an American church, and you are doing that good work, and you become aware of a need overseas, continue doing that good work and send what you can.
Rob Bell ONLY speaks of help in the physical sense. The physical help of those in need is not the Gospel; it is an outworking of the Gospel in those people who are born again. But the theological root is deep in this book (JWTSC) that what we need to do is to change the world by doing social gospel style works. And I will say that these works, done in the name of Jesus, are real nice, and they help people, but without the gospel proclamation, it is just another act of welfare and has no spiritual benefit for the person being fed. In other words, we are doing good things because we love Jesus, but when they receive the food, they only know they are being fed. The givers get a blessing, the receivers get fed. But when they die, if they do not have their sin problem taken care of, they will not be reconciled and restored in the new heaven and earth, they will be spending eternity in Hell.
And it won’t matter how full of food they were.
We must desire to attach Jesus name to that water or the recipient is ignorant to who we serve. It is not a law, but our acts of kindness should point to Jesus just as His healing, miracles, and others kindnesses ultimately pointed to Him.
#80
Thank you Rick, a pithy statement that encapsulates my view.
Your first paragraph in #79 says proclamation of the Gospel is “one of” good works… which implied others.
Your second paragraph in #79 “has no spiritual benefit for the person being fed”… does this negate your previous statement?
The fact you say “Rob Bell ONLY speaks of help in the physical sense” in JWTSC is as true as it is irrelevant.
You continue to show you completely miss the point of the book.
You continue to beat the same irrelevant dead-horse addressing an issue to which Bell did not speak.
As often as you shoe you miss the point, I will continue to point that out to you… maybe you’ll catch on sooner or later.
True enough – but it is the method in which the name gets attached we are discussing… PB may agree with you, but so would Bell.
In the case of PB I see the truism of 78 applicable.
I forgot to mention every glass of water must be accompanied by a Jack Chick tract.
More harm then good – I’m afraid…
In my truism both “cups” and “tracks” are metaphorical.
Rick,
Really, since it is God who saves us, I believe and act of kindness done to someone as we are moved by the Holy Spirit without our words can do more.
When I give I give to God not man… and when my church or organization uses the money to help someone… or I do it directly I do not see it necessary to announce that I do it in Jesus Name… Often that can come across as insincere.
Yet, sometimes, the one that receives already had God working on them and the act of kindness itself will be seen from God.
Sometimes saying “I am doing this because I am a Christian.” Or “Jesus told me to do this” (which I do on occasion) can come across as the act being all about me and not God.
So really be it said or unsaid, if it is down by being compelled by the HOly Spirit, God will get the Glory as that is why the Holy Spirit is here.
I see it that we are to trust God in His work… and it is not about us at all… so an act of kindness done without a word can have more effect than our words.
Also, tell me how many of those brought to Jesus by missionaries would ever know the money was from you? And really if we sow to righteousness… that is what we will reap be it that we see the results or not.
iggy
I find this really funny… as it seems most the time I spend here I am showing you how what you often say as “truth” is antithetical to the Bible…
1. You state something outrageous to show someone is teaching error.
2. Others as well as myself show you that you are wrong and that really your statement is in error.
3. You twist what you actually stated to mean the opposite.
4. You are then in agreement with the person you originally wanted to show was in error.
5. You argue that they are still wrong.
6. You then switch topics.
7. We then start all over from #1
iggy
So Iggy, are you saying God’s vision to Jim Elliot was to go and help the Auca’s with building wells and farming techniques and other modern helps and Elliot could do it unto God and not preach Jesus?
Two men, stragers to each other, are stranded on an island, one is a healthy man who is a Christian, the other has health problems who has never heard of Jesus. They are never rescued, but the Christian man sacrificially sees to the other man’s needs for 17 years without sharing Christ, and finally the unbelieving man dies without hearing the gospel.
Iggy – that is serving Christ? That is obedience to the Great Commission? That Christian man had the eternal interests of his friend as paramount. Please do not elevate good works higher than the subordinate role they play.
The gospel saves, alone.
Hypothetical scenarios are often times overly polarized.
The bottom line is Pastorboy continues to miss the point of the book… and lashes out against it.
“Hypothetical scenarios are often times overly polarized.”
Like parables? I believe they can sometimes unfold an issue to a greater and more expansive understanding.
I agree – but they are easily abused as well.
As we have seen ADM’s do repeatedly.
#88
Amen Rick, AMEN!! There you go again making my point better than I can make it.
#92
Ricks mastery of theology and the english language never ceases to amaze me.
Rick,
Yes… to all of that… meaning that God alone saves us… and if those people watched and interacted to the man who believes, his actions alone could lead someone to Jesus…
Of course I see that your examples are over exaggerated… and I think you totally are mischaracterizing what I stated.
If for example 2 men on a deserted island do not get to know each other over 17 years… then there is a major issue… but if the “Christian” always has to state… “I got this coconut for you in Jesus Name.” or “I made this hut for us in Jesus Name.” or… I noticed you were cold and I have 2 coats, here have mine in Jesus Name….” Really I would probably want to kill the guy and be alone! LOL!
Yet a man can let known his faith and do all those things without adding “in Jesus Name” to the actions and the other will come to the Lord. For it is Jesus that draws all men to Himself…
The same with Jim Elliot. The Indians might ask him of his God as he digs the well… or why he was there to do so… or they might see him pray and read a bible… but still without a word, God could have saved who He wanted to be saved.
The point is that it should be a natural thing for us to serve and love others. To always label things as “of God” can also be presumptuous of us… sometimes we do “good” things that are not that “good” after all.
There was a story of a missionary who lead a chief to Christ who had 3 wives. The missionary explained that it was not right to have more than one wife… so the chief had the other 2 executed. The missionary asked why he did so… the chief stated it was shameful for a woman to be divorced in their culture so to execute them left them without shame.
Was it good for the missionary to share the “truth” that a man should be married to only one woman which lead to the death of 2 women?
iggy
In Jesus’ parables there were usually real life parallels.
Who is the parallel in this story? If the answer isn’t Rob Bell, Rick Warren and the rest of the usual suspects I doubt that Pastorboy will still be kissing your ass.
Lets relate another parable:
Two men are stranded on a desert island. One man, a Christian is perfectly healthy, the other is hurt and has never heard the name of Jesus. The Christian preaches the name of Jesus while never lifting a finger to help the hurt man.
That is serving Christ? That is obedience to the Great Commission? That Christian man had the eternal interests of his friend as paramount. Please do not elevate mouthing the gospel higher than living the gospel.
Bo – that is from my perspective a false construct because I think good works should naturally emanate from a follower of Jesus. But the core of our lives must be redemptive, and in fact we ourselves would nort be concerned about such good works had we not be regenerated.
I do not believe that is what John was expressing. Who could be against good works? But Jesus came to “seek and to save that whcih was lost”. That can only be accomplished through faith in Jesus Christ.
“if you have no desire for others to be saved, you are not saved yourself. Be sure of that”
Chuck Spurgeon
#95, and #96
Actually, that’s a perfect construct. Except for his profanity, he laid a theological smack down on you. In the context (or construct) of what we’re talking about here, he drew a wonderfully accurate picture.
#79 from what I have read from Bell your stayment is simply wrong. He is not just about the physical at all! He says our problem is much deeper in his book.
I know people in New Tribes mission work who live and work and educate remote tribes in Indonesia.
It has taken 5 years to set up the context and language work and educational structures, etc. etc. etc. before they started to share the Gospel explicitly.
Obviously there were language barriers, etc. but the long view, living in their community, learning about them, their stories, their hopes, their culture…I don’t think that’s a bad thing or a failure…and I think those principles translate elsewhere.
The construct is yours actually, Rick.
You’re setting up somekind of dichotomy of importance.
“he laid a theological smack down on you.”
Aside from your WWE verbiage, my point was that I have never dismissed good works. And if elevation is your point, no good works should ever be elevated to the cross of Jesus Christ. I find imbalance on both sides depending on who your are attacking or who you are defending.
The apostles did not become martyrs because they were giving out too much water.
As I keep saying, works should be a natural outflow of who we are in Christ… we need to be hearing and doing as the Holy Spirit leads.
I have been told to walk up to a person and talk to them of Jesus and have done so…
I have been told to do something for someone without any words and have done so…
In both cases God has done His work that he prepared for me to do.
Really some people should not talk to people… seriously… they are too ignorant in a sense… have you ever wondered why Jesus told people not to say He healed them? Or why he told the disciples at times not to say who He was?
They were not ready to do so…
In the case of those healed… Jesus did not want to be known as the “Healer” but as the Messiah… as in the case of the disciples, they know Jesus was Messiah, yet had wrong views of what Messiah was.
So again, it is about listening to the Holy Spirit and doing what God wants… not adding our own “gotta get them saved” agenda… sometimes God is adding judgement to someone (Yes I stated that) as they had been given the drink of water and were not thankful for it…
Good works should always accompany believers, but they are subordinate to the gospel message.
I was saved hearing the gospel from a man who never did any good works for me. But I do not believe I could have been saved watching him feed the poor unless it drew me to hear him further.
#102
No, Rick. I agree you haven’t. For the most part you have exuded balance. My WWE verbiage was a quote of Chris Rosebrough. He uses that phrase in his radio programs occasionally.
But if Bo’s picture was lacking, so was yours. If you believe yours was legit then you have to accept Bo’s as legit too.
I agree with Bo’s mirrored coonstruct, except for the last sentence. I would add that if that man never lifted a finger to help the other I might dounbt he was a Christian. Sinners do not get saved by good works, the good works come as a result of salvation.
Rick,
I completely disagree… we were created to do good works in Christ… it is out of the abundance of our hearts and should be the core of our being to do as we are created to do and be as we were created to be. Faith without works is dead… there is no subordinate part… it is the living out in faith in our being that expresses the Gospel… with words or not.
A man once was a persecutor of the church… people heard rumors of him and that he was part of the stoning of Stephen… then one day that man was changed… and his labor of love… in actions such as writing letters and teaching and working side by side with them… and sometimes being ministered to as he was to ill to do anything… was what gave notice to that this man was now a true believer.
If Paul had not put actions to his faith… then we would not have heard of him and he would be of no importance to us as he is now.
iggy
BTW Joe – I am thankful that the quote was not yours. I should have known it came with ADM credentials.
Iggy – it’s jusy illogical. Which comes first, faith or works? If they are equal, then they can be interchangeable. But of course they cannot. We are justified by faith and then created for good works.If we cannot agree on that so me it.
If not for the works of Christ Jesus none of us would be saved… it was His good works at the Cross that saved us… so again I totally disagree… God’s works in and through us bring salvation as they are the works of God and not us.
If a missionary hears the call and does not act on it… then he did nothing. Works and salvation are interconnected in our being as new creations in Christ.
iggy
One must believe and receive to be saved… if one just believes and does not receive…. then no salvation…
It is the actions believing and receiving that we are saved… these are “works of God” done in us and worked out through us by God. Again, James states “even the demons believe” and that without works faith is dead.
Paul was not stating works are not part of salvation, rather that works alone to gain righteousness will not save us as there is no righteousness apart from Jesus.
iggy
The inability to accurately define works and faith has been evident since the days of the apostles. It continues today.
Sorry I see that as a cop out…
iggy
well, it seems the question really is…
is incomplete faith (i.e. without works) really saving faith?
Maybe your question, in and of itself, is faulty, and we go back to Phil’s note on Hebrew thought -
Maybe they’re so intertwined that they can’t really be separated, and it all comes down to one’s motivation (heart, in the Hebrew context) as to whether ones belief/action is honoring to God or not.
Maybe we’ve just made it far too complicated by trying to compartmentalize “faith” and “works” as separate entities. How can you really have “faith” (belief) if your works don’t demonstrate it? How can your works really demonstrate your faith if you do it for your own glory or for the glory of man?
Is an ‘incomplete faith’ really faith at all?
Yeah, I do think it’s been overcomplicated. If we say we believe something, but it doesn’t change the we act, then we don’t really believe it. That’s the point James makes.
I can say I love my neighbor all I want, but if I don’t do something to back that up, then I don’t really love him.
That’s the question.
I mean, I have my opinions, but I threw the question out there for the sake of the discussion.
Rick, what do you believe works to be? Was not the sharing of the Gospel to you a work? Was not his work based on his faith in Jesus?
Anytime you share the Gospel, it’s a work.
I view the so called controversy between James and Paul like this.
It is like a bridge…
On the entrance Paul greats you with, “You can’t cross this bridge by doing good works as to cross takes Godly Righteousness. You must admit you cannot earn your salvation by your works… yet as you cross you will find a new thing growing inside you and that is the desire to do the works of Christ God has placed in you…
Then as you cross and exit the bridge you meet James who reminds you that you crossed by faith, but faith will have the works of faith that now dwells in you for Christ Jesus now lives in you. Do not forget that it is not just that you believed for demon also believe, but put feet to your belief and walk in faith guided by the Holy Spirit seeking to act on your faith as He guides you.
There is no conflict… it is that Paul and James are at different points of the bridge and have slightly difference yet the same messages… their focus is of one who has yet to come to saving faith (Paul) needing to understand that their works do not save, while James tells us that works will accompany true faith.
Both agree it is God’s works not our own.
iggy
Repent and believe the gospel.
Abraham believed God, without works, and was made righteous. Paul says that if works plays any part in the very act of regeneration, then he could boast. Works have no part in saving faith, none.
The revelation of becoming a Christian by good works is a valid measuring rod, but they are revelations of a changed life, not part of saving faith.
Jn.3:16 is clear, I cannot believe you guys will not admit that works have no part in the act of regeneration period. It shows the fine line that we all play when fear we might take the side we reject.
Anyone who suggest that works are necessary to be saved is preaching another gospel. Period. To make such a simple theology so complicated is baffling to me.
And to say the cross is a work and therefore works play a part is being disingenuous and parsing words. That is not the discussion we are having.
I don’t believe any of has said that works have anything with someone becoming a Christian. All we’re saying is that true faith will be demonstrated by works. If it’s not, it’s not a true faith.
I don’t know how this became a discussion on justification.
“Anytime you share the Gospel, it’s a work.”
That is not the works we are discussing.
“If not for the works of Christ Jesus none of us would be saved… it was His good works at the Cross that saved us… so again I totally disagree… God’s works in and through us bring salvation as they are the works of God and not us.”
Again, not germaine.
“Maybe we’ve just made it far too complicated by trying to compartmentalize “faith” and “works” as separate entities.”
I refer you to comment #112.
“I don’t know how this became a discussion on justification.”
That is the core of the issue. Saving faith produces works, but they are separate entities completely.
Unless I have missed something, I don’t believe any of us have said this or disagreed with it. Even the OP has nothing to do with ‘how’ we are saved, but what we do with our salvation after we are saved.
I think you are mixing the message here.
It is just this kind of confusing discussion that leads people like John to think some are espousing a works based salvation. Project post salvation works all you want, contend for humanitarian efforts, correct the church for their doctrinal idolatry, but make it clear that salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ.
That means we all must agree with Calvin and MacArthur and Luther and Silva, as painful as it might seem to some of you. And most importantly we would agree with God’s Word.
Rick,
Who denied such a thing? Surely not I? Surely not the OP? I’m not sure I understand who you are arguing with. Has anyone at this site, that is the writers, ever said salvation is any place else?
jerry
From the OP:
Clearly, the OP was talking about a post (whatever that means) salvation effort and not a pre salvation effort.
“Even the OP has nothing to do with ‘how’ we are saved, but what we do with our salvation after we are saved.”
Finally, a trumpet with a certain sound. That is all I was asking, not the hysteria that has ensued. Faith in Christ saves. Salvation brings good works.
This single line of scripture should pacify this debate entirely – Paul outlining his commission to King Agrippa (Acts 26):
This issue only becomes complicated when you theologically dissect it. Right now there are people living out their lives in accordance with this scripture: they have repented and now they are living lives in line with this repentance. This is salvation.
“Right now there are people living out their lives in accordance with this scripture: they have repented and now they are living lives in line with this repentance. This is salvation.”
No, that is the revelation and genuineness of someone’s salvation and it is the “working out” of a person’s salvation.
Salvation is faith in Christ. Period. Repentance is changing your mind, the works you do later reveal the authenticity of your repentance.
If they “repent and turn to God” and yet don’t perform “deeds in keeping with their repentance” then no repentance (and therefore no salvation) occurred.
This is really a non-argument because salvation, in the early church, was a life-long process, started at repentance.
Mormons do great works around the world; secular organizations do the same; and there are a multiude of organizations and individual people who would never categorize themselves as believing followers of Jesus Christ.
So the truth about who Jesus is and what it means to be saved is essential. You can feed every poor person on the face of the earth but if you haven’t been born again you are lost. That is why we as believers should do all those good works, but make sure to share why we do them.
There is a Mormon father. He doesn’t drink, smoke, curse, and he is faithful to his family. He does much good throughout the community, and he is involved in humanitarian efforts in Africa.
His neighbors think he is just great since he is handy around the house and yard and offers his services without any strings attached.
So why is this man not saved?
I agree 110%. I am more on your side with the necessity of this than I’m seeing from anyone else here.
Again, 110% agreement. See my comment #13 on this thread. The message (spoken and told) is absolutely essential in conjunction with the good works.
Personally, I don’t get that hung up on people’s motives for doing good works as I used to. If a cultist gives a poor person a meal, the blessing of that meal still comes from God. All good ultimately comes from God. The fact that the church isn’t always in the forefront of these efforts should be to our shame.
The thing that God wants from us is obedience. He’ll take care of the results.
I find it interesting that most here say that doing good work won’t save but would turn around and say that doing something bad means you’re not a Christian. see homosexuality, smoking, drinking, swearing, etc…
“I find it interesting that most here say that doing good work won’t save but would turn around and say that doing something bad means you’re not a Christian. see homosexuality, smoking, drinking, swearing, etc…”
Most here? I believe I have made it clear only God knows who is saved, and that the absence of salvation works doesn’t necessarily mean a person is not saved. The man in Corinth was saved.
Rick,
Sorry, John is just mostly confused about most things… and seems to add things not stated as if they were… often I wonder if he is just being divisive or just cannot see others may have an understand if not more understanding than he think he does.
Again… John is mostly just a confused person from what he states here often…
iggy
Well Rick I put you in the “some here” category.
Rick,
Apples and oranges… Mormons believe in a different Jesus…. the brother of Lucifer who was a man like us and became a god like we will be.
That is nothing like the true Christian faith. In fact, they will say their good works add to their righteousness… and it is THEIR GOOD WORKS not God’s… much like MacArthur followers have stated to me…
Again, true faith is so intertwined with doing God’s works that if one does not do them I would boldly state they may not be saved.
Also, as far as Abraham… you are stating that he was not saved by his works… that is right… it was by Grace, yet James states this.
Notice again it is as I am stating… his faith and his actions were working together… one cannot have true faith without actions… nor do actions without faith save us.
Again this is not that Abraham was saved by his works, rather that his works. Salvation is a process and Abraham was saved by Grace, and being saved in his actions of faith as he believed and followed God.
Paul never states that Abraham was without works… only that Abraham was not justified by his works (again this is the point PB misses about justification) As there was still the debt of sin that needed to be paid and only Jesus could pay that debt. Abraham’s faith was in God and the promises of salvation through Messiah.
Doing good works do not take away our sin… only Jesus does and so works do not justify us. Again the example of the bridge above… Paul states that in our sin we cannot justify ourselves before God and earn salvation… James states that faith and actions are declare us righteous AS JESUS IS RIGHTEOUS… works do not add to our righteousness, but reveal the righteousness of Christ Jesus in us. Abraham by his actions revealed the Living God that chose him by Grace in his actions of obedience to offer his son as a sacrifice.
Also, at the very place Abraham was told to sacrifice Isaac is where Jesus was crucified… Abraham in faith and action was living out the model of prophecy that would later be fulfilled in Jesus at the Cross… “God will provide the sacrifice” were the words of Abraham to Isaac who being a man born in sin and would need pay for those sins with his own death, was given the substitute ram in his place.
The whole story of Abraham and Issac is that of Jesus and the Cross…
iggy
Phil’s contention in comment #136 is that all good works come from God, even that Mormon man. Do you subscribe to that position?
Therefore God is doing all good through everyone from ma Satanist to an evangelical pastore and in tha scenario he gives credibility to heretics and enemies of the cross. So when Bin Laden gives a colleague a cup of water that comes from God?
Rick,
No doubt a person who does not know Jesus can do good works, and even be guided by God to do so… but this if not mixed with faith amount to nothing as far as our relationship.
A Mormon or satanist can do good things like feed the poor, but their motives are what matters. If of God and for God, it is by God… if not it is man’s works that mean nothing in the eternal scheme of things.
The issue is not whether man can do good or not… all men are capable of doing good… it is sustaining doing good that is what cuts us all down… Just as we think we are good at doing good we do something wrong.
The works of God being done by a believer or say the King of Babylon who attacked Israel… are God’s work and will fulfill their purpose according to God’s will.
So no works will not save us but no where in the bible is it stated man cannot do good on his own at times.
This is much which Bonhoeffer as well as Iraenius state in their writings.
iggy
Unregenerate “good works” are filthy rags. If you suggest that God is doing good works through all religions then I strongly disagree. The unregenerate are spiritually dead and cannot do God’s works.
I cannot understand this entire conversation. God only has one family, all the others have a different father.
So Rick, God did not soften and harden the heart of Pharaoh… He did not soften the heart of Xerxes toward Esther and so on? God does not hold the hearts of kings in His hands both saved and not?
I agree there is a difference between the “works” yet to say God does not do His work through unbelievers as well means we need toss out much of the OT.
iggy
I don’t see how you can disagree. God works through non-Christian people all the time. If I go to a non-Christian doctor and he diagnoses my sickness and helps me get well, that a good work. God used him. That pattern is repeated all throughout the Bible.
Those are generic good works, horizontally measured abd sometimes used of God but is not working through them in the same way He works through us.
And this conversation has forced me to make decision. From this day forward, I will never do another good work. I will turn a deaf ear to all suffering, I will mock tragedy, and I will never meet the needs of another person. Why?
So when I get to heaven, I can prove to you guys that you can still get to heaven just by faith. I am beginning…NOW.
Rick, I have not read all the comments… who advocates what that you need to prove this?
hey, not pertinent to this thread I know…
but i just wanted ya’ll to know that it happened just like I said it would. It only took 3 days, but here you go:
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/purpose-driven-madness/rick-warren-prayed-in-the-name-of-false-christ-isa/
Does this mean you will be writing for SoL or CRN?
iggy