Someone at Slice is really confused. For example this gem:
This article fully addresses what was so wrong about Rick Warren getting up and praying his Interfaith prayer. It sowed spiritual confusion. Did Jesus really teach Buddhists and atheists to pray, “Our Father, who art in heaven…?”
If you follow the link it takes you to a blog post at Huffington Post in which the blogger blasts Rick for saying Jesus taught “us” to pray. The blogger complains of Rick’s use of “us” in the phrase … “Jesus, who taught us to pray, ‘our father, who art in Heaven’…”
The Huffington blogger clearly missed the common formulaic use of this phrase, choosing to be offended instead by being included in Warren’s conservatism. Ingrid at Slice uses this as evidence of some kind attack against Warren. The warrant – his prayer sowed spiritual confusion and was interfaith. Of course, to do so she must also miss the point of the Huffington Post blogger – at least the Ingrid is consistent.
I challenge anyone to show how this prayer is interfaith… it invokes a prayer to “our Father” which clearly excludes Muslims who would never refer to their god as father… it excluded Buddhists who deny a personal deity to be a father… it excludes those religions who are not based on the Hebrew Scriptures in general, or Deuteronomy in specific… and most significantly by praying in the name of Jesus he excludes all those who would not – i.e. everyone except Christians.
So, in an effort to attack a brother in Christ Ingrid at Slice chooses to side with someone who was offended by Warren including them in a Christian prayer.
But the confusion does not end there.
There is the post [HT: nc] griping about which translation of the name of the Messiah was used. The issue here is the use of the Arabic “Isa” – apparently Arabic is an inappropriate language to use when referencing Jesus. The complaint is based on this assertion:
`Isa´ is strictly Koranic and used by Arab Muslims. Even Arab Christians don´t refer to Isa,´ but to `Yesua.´ – Daniel Cordell
This is nonsense, as is the rest of the post that tries to make Isa a technical term used by Muslims. Apparently someone thinks if it’s on Wikipedia it’s true. There is only one problem… Arab Believers do indeed refer to Jesus as Isa since it is simply the Arabic translation – as Jesus is English. Furthermore, to say Arabs are going to stop using Arabic and take up Hebrew when they come to Christ based on “Isa” being Koranic is asinine.
These attacks on Warren and his prayer in the name of Jesus are as shameful as they are shoddy. But it does show, once again, that narrow minds are easily made up – and no facts will stand in their way.
***UPDATED TO ADD***
It is evident that Ingrid Schlueter (along with others) has such an unrealistic view of Warren that she is willing to use any source, advance any claim, create any objection regardless of merit.
The whole “Isa” discussion aside (cf. early comments below)… the very fact that she calls a prayer prayed to Our Father…in Jesus’ name interfaith shows her willingness and ability to ignore facts in an effort to discredit Warren.
This claim is so blatantly false it discredits no one but herself…
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
35 Comments(+Add)
I mean I know logic and reason are usually beyond the grasp of ADM writers, but this is taking ignorance to new and staggering heights. Seriously, how does mentioning Jesus’ name (which is a freakin’ translation if his actual name, anyway) in Arab equate to Warren being a universalist?
Seriously. I can try to be gracious with this crap, but this is plain stupidity. A first grader could understand it.
Yep… sowing confusion is their game… I mean they believe in Grace, but you must pray this way, wear a suit, sit in pews, preach from a pulpit, listen to only classical music (regardless whether it was originally a secular piece, not wear t-shirts, sleep in your suit in case someone calls you at 3am, not let your kids listen to Hannah Montana (that little girl of Sodom), be purpose driven, not listen to Rick Warren,not be Rick Warren, not be emergent, not be Doug Pagitt or Tony Jones or Brian McLaren, agree with John MacArthur, agree to disagree with your allies even though they watch RCC programs and observe advent though you state that is all of the Antichrist,… and… and…
I think you get the point… Grace + means no Grace… dependency on one’s own logic will lead only to confusion.
iggy
I realize that Warren’s heavy handed attempt at reaching the Muslim community only obstructs the massive outreach by Ingrid to bring Christ to Muslims.
But you guys are overlooking one important tenant of being an ADM.
Rick Warren can do nothing right.
So please, next time you think you see hatred, or duplicity, or hypocrisy, or even blog dementia, refer to the above law and it will save you a lot of time. So please repeat with me,
“Our Father, Who art in heaven…”
Even the guys at Pyro treated Warren with some respect and understanding. Those compromising liberals!!
What if Rick had prayed “Jesus, Isa, The Jesus of Mormonism, The New Age Jesus…” Because Isa isn’t the Jesus of the Bible. Isa is a completely different person than Jesus. That is a fact.
Josh – repeating something disproven as if it were fact does not change that it has been disproven…
Don’t worry, God wasn’t listening anyway.
What amazes me beyond the shoddy scholarship that tries to shoehorn meaning where it does not fit, is the ethnocentric arrogance that tries to inform other what the meanings of their words are…
The next time I’m with my Arab brothers in the Lord, and they pray in the name of Isa, I’ll be sure to current them on your authority…
But it says so on Wikipedia…
I’m trying to apprehend the logic that must go into believing this… if someone writes a book and falsely describes a person in it… anyone else who uses that name must translate the name into a language other than that of the book, or they too are referencing the false description… even if it is their mother tongue…
hahaha.
But he didn’t pray that so it’s moot.
Uh…No it isn’t. Stop believing everything that you read. Actually do some research and discover the etymology of the word “Isa” and you will see that it’s a little more complicated than that.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Intro/islamic_jesus.html
Here is a good essay on Isa according to the Qur’an.
Of course, someone having a false Jesus does not mean we cannot use the name as Josh illustrated by using “Mormon Jesus.” Obviously the modifier indicates the false Jesus, the particular Jesus in mind… When Josh wanted to differentiate he said “Mormon Jesus. In the essay linked above the author qualifies “Isa” thus – “‘Isa (Jesus) of the Qur’an is…”
If Jesus always meant that of The Book of Mormon, Josh would not need to be specific, no modifier would be necessary.
In the same way, if Isa always meant the false Jesus of the Qur’an, no modifier would be necessary.
Warren was just trying to reach out.
Sheeesh. Even if one could prove that pronoun was ill advised, it doesn’t change Rick’s sincere intentions. The hatred is stiffling.
I guess Jesus was praying to a “demon” as some ODM’s claim because the aramaic word for God basically sounds like “allah” and is rendered in romanized spelling as “aalah” or “aaloh”.
hmmm…
that apostate Jesus who was praying to a false God.
it’s been a while, but excuse me while my eyes roll back into my skull so far and I can see my own insides.
then again, i just looked at #4’s website…
explains a lot.
Unlike a lot of the screeching we see from the likes of Slice, Lighthouse Trails, Appraising, etc… their site had a few good posts.
I wonder if praying in the name if Jesus (the Spanish pronunciation) was a reference to the false Jesus of Roman Catholicism… code-speak ya know…
I really dont want to split hairs , i liked Ricks prayer, but as far as Arabic Christians the term is Yasu…I agree some Arab Christians use the term Isa but the majority use Yasu…
This Article is by the same site
Answering Islam
The traditional Arabic name for Jesus is Yasu’. Until very recent times, all Arab Christians used no other name for Jesus. And even today, that is the name used by more than 99% of all Arab Christians.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Abualrub/true-name-isa.htm
And this blatant lie from the same SOL post:
She knows better. Here is a current link to Saddleback’s website with a q&a regarding the Bible’s stand on homosexuality. Question #22.
Sorry……screwed up the Saddleback link in prior post.
http://www.saddlebackfamily.com/home/bibleqanda/index.html
You know, it’s frustrating when the ODM’s are so blatantly dishonest and you aren’t able to tell their readers the truth. Of course most wouldn’t believe it anyway I guess.
If we use the same logic, “Jesus” in English is not the one of the Bible as He is Y’shua… we need to be sure not to cross the cultural lines in language now in order to be saved by grace.
Really this is the whole JW argument and logic that is being used… as far as discernment… Walter Martin should be rolling in his grave!
This is a common tactic for Ingrid. She often will twist words and stories to fit a preconceived agenda.
This is what absolutely baffles me about ODMs. Why can’t Ingrid display that same level of integrity as is displayed by secular news sources? Why is it that I can trust the New York Times when it posts a link but I can’t trust Ingrid?
And why do people continue to defend her and her tactics?
This high pitched screeching will only result in more and more people tuning out the abortion issue entirely.
john b – Ingrid’s tone about a number of people cannot be described as anything but hate. You can put lipstick on it, put a hat on it, and dress it all up as “discernment”, but it’s still hate. A person can become so filled with self righteousness that even when they write about God’s grace or Christ’s redemption or most things spiritual, you can detect a subtle and not so subtle air of superiority and self righteousness, and that is very sad.
Without huminity spawned from grace, all you have are organized words that sound like brass and tinkle like a cymbal, and without love all you have is hate, which to God is nothing.
And the current article on SoL about new revelations of homosexual activity by Ted Haggard begins with this sentence:
What kind of demented mind, much less Christian, refers to this utter tragedy, exploited by the secular press, with that kind of comic carelessness? What does it say about a person’s Christianity when they find open glee about someone’s sin and downfall?
What “gift” is Ted Haggard? Is his sin a “gift” for gossiping sinners to feast upon? And what does he keep on giving? Sin? His sin is a gift to us that gives us more opportunity to inventory his awful story?
What brand of Christianity isthis?
Andy,
Regarding #17, from my experiences I would agree with you, that Yesu is also a name used for Jesus of Nazareth. Though I think statement like “…Until very recent times, all Arab Christians used no other name for Jesus. And even today, that is the name used by more than 99% of all Arab Christians” can be misleading.
How do we know that all Arabs used no other name? And who studied them to determine 99% use Yesu?
My point is to agree that Isa may be a minority used name for Jesus.
But that does not relieve others their double error; first of constructing some monolithic persona for “Isa” that every reference must refer to, and secondly compounding this error as an attack on Warren.
Just for the record, no one denying that Arab Muslims use the term Isa to describe a false Jesus… and that this is based on the errors of the Qur’an.
What we are saying is that “Isa” is not limited to just that “version” of Jesus any more than the error filled New World Translation or Book of Mormon force us to abandon “Jesus” in favor of another language.
There’s also a difference between “Arab Christians” and the very tiny, but burgeoning “messianic muslim” movement that calls Jesus “Issa”
nc,
Good reminder… as much as I would oppose the “Messianic Muslim” movement (at least what I have been exposed to and know of it) it just further goes to show how naive it is to assert that there is but one “Isa” – to which all uses must refer.
Do motives count for nothing? We can be sure Warren was attempting to reach out to Muslims, nothing more and nothing less. I will take a questionable use of the nam of Jesus before I approve of referring to a fallen brother as “a gift that keeps on giving”.
How disgraceful.
Rick,
Right you are. This just goes to show the lengths that Ingrid will go to attack Warren… I won’t assign motives, since that is so dangerous and easily abused (as Ingrid so often does) – I just wonder why she can’t just address real issues instead of manufacturing them… and why does she delight in the failures of others.
It is odd behavior for a believer.
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/obamanations/obama-messiah-enters-on-a-donkey/
I find the demeaning terms to describe the President as unbiblical, regardless of his views on a variety of issues. Honor the King, says God’s Word. That statement makes no reference to the king’s political views, and in fact Caesar was a ruthless tyrant, but isn’t that the king to which Paul was referring? I have come to understand that many who scream the loudest about sola Scriptura don’t really believe it at all.
And those who scream about Rick Warren’s use of the Muslim word for Jesus turn around and carelessly use the word “Messiah” in referencing President Obama. So let me get this straight, Warren’s use of Isa is blasphemy but Ingrid’s sarcastic use of messiah is alright? And the post at SoL suggests a socialist revolution, but we as believers are not called to oversee the economic system, we are called to preach and live the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I now believe many blogs can no longer be considered Christian.
I agree Niel…Personally i think this is one of them times, when what the person meant, is far more important then the actual word he used…
Its sad how Rick’s getting hit from both sides,i read one site (i think it may of been the post again) and the comments were fierce…
And from the other side,hes getting it from Camp’s site now…
I would of thought with that type of persecution Ingrid would of taking him to her bosom
What a shame – Steve Camp piles on with more petty accusations and critique…
Somebody help me see why this isn’t openly contradictory. In this segment MacArthur rightly dismisses moralism as a means to change a “nation”.
http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=9033
But I ask you, how does that square with blogs like Ingrid’s and Mohler’s and a lot of others that continually rail against abortion, homosexuality, and a litany of moral issues?
What am I missing??
Ok…I’ve read enough to ask; is Jesus that fragile that He needs the defense of those with internet connections?