Here is a perfect example of modern legalism/phariseeism, particularly once you start reading the comments.

Perhaps we ought to just link to this when we want to demonstrate how Armchair “Discernment” “Ministries” completely miss the kingdom of God…

  • Share/Bookmark
This entry was posted on Saturday, January 24th, 2009 at 5:11 pm and is filed under Church and Society. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+/- Collapse/Expand All

178 Comments(+Add)

1   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 24th, 2009 at 5:24 pm

“You observe days and months and times and years, I am afraid of you lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain”.

“He that regards the day regards it unto the Lord, and he that doesn’t regard the day unto the Lord he doesn’t regard it”.

To make any day the “law” is a return to the “beggerly elements”.

2   Neil    
January 24th, 2009 at 5:41 pm

Same rot every year… the self-righteousness of those comments is revolting…

3   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 24th, 2009 at 5:53 pm

We are opening our home as we do every other Sunday after church to college students. We will likely watch the super bowl and have some chili with our church family.

But if you have a church service at night, and you cancel if for the super bowl, where are your priorities?

I am a big football fan, but it has taken a backseat to the Lord. I won’t put it on any one else’s back unless they are a member. Miss one service every once in a while? no problemo. Miss every service, or every home game service? Spiritual issue.

Superbowl can be an outreach, just another opportunity to invite neighbors and friends over. But calling it an outreach, and just stopping church to watch the game? Issue.

4   Neil    
January 24th, 2009 at 5:59 pm

But if you have a church service at night, and you cancel if for the super bowl, where are your priorities?

There are so many nuances to this scenario.

Some churches have multiple services on Sunday with evening services being the same. So if they cancel they are only canceling one from a bunch – people would most likely be going to other services anyway.

Some churches run different services in the evening. So even if they cancel, they are not canceling a week’s worth of worship. Just one occurrence of what is pretty much a modernist invention anyway.

Either way -NBD (No Big Deal)

5   Neil    
January 24th, 2009 at 6:02 pm

Superbowl can be an outreach, just another opportunity to invite neighbors and friends over. But calling it an outreach, and just stopping church to watch the game? Issue.

Legalism – a real issue…

…even if it’s just to hang out with fellow believers. The need to stick to a formulaic schedule as proof of priorities sounds like an example of legalism to me.

6   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 24th, 2009 at 6:21 pm

If you do not have a worship service every night of the week…what are your priorities? Legalism is a fractured lifestyle that transfers the power from the Spirit to the tradition. If we desire to go back in history as a template for today, then let us arrive Sunday morning and stay all day, eating, fellowshiping, praying, praising, receiving the Lord’s Supper, and return at sundown back to our own homes.

All day, every Sunday. And let us do away with vacations which seems to be a tradition I’m sure Chris R. has no problem observing, even though it removes his presence from the local gathering. Where oh where are your priorities?

Alas, Sunday night has become an idol and has been placed upon the high places with all the rest of the golden calves – clothing, music, litergy, seminary, systematic theology, and all the rest of Dagon’s offspring. God awaits us on Sunday night confined to a New Testament Ark we now call a “Church Building”.

If we are to measure ourselves with ourselves using the plumbline of man made traditions we will all be found wanting…infinitely.

7   Neil    
January 24th, 2009 at 6:26 pm

Alas, Sunday night has become an idol and has been placed upon the high places with all the rest of the golden calves – clothing, music, litergy, seminary, systematic theology, and all the rest of Dagon’s offspring.

Rick,

And most of these, or at least the variations that are held as sacred, are products of modernity.

The very folks who are so quick to hate one abiblical way of thinking are so quick to love another which is equally abiblical.

So much of what Chris R and P (I can never keep then straight) and PB (but to a lesser degree) love to hold aloft as the way God wants things done – is nothing more than the way it has been done in the modernist era of their culture.

8   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
January 24th, 2009 at 6:27 pm

I agree. Stupid legalism. Chris L, do you remember that verse in the Bible that says we should have multiple services on Sunday? I forget where it is.

Oh, in case it doesn’t actually make it through moderation at ALL I made this note: I wonder if Kurt Warner (a devout Christian) should be chastised for actually playing in the game?

Just sayin…

9   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 24th, 2009 at 6:28 pm

Good point. So you are suggesting that by definition they are post modern emergents?

10   Joe    http://www.joemartino.name
January 24th, 2009 at 6:29 pm

I wonder if Kurt Warner (a devout Christian) should be chastised for actually playing in the game?

Don’t worry, the Steelers D will help out. (I hope)

11   Neil    
January 24th, 2009 at 6:31 pm

Ben Roethlisberger as well – so I have heard… and others I suspect…

12   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
January 24th, 2009 at 6:34 pm

I suppose, too, all those pregame and postgame prayers offered up by the players will likely be ignored by God because he is mad they are not ‘in church.’

Have you ever seen those giant prayer circles they have after games? Winning and losing team players gather in the middle of the field for giant prayer circles. It is very moving and emotional to see a guy rush away from an interview so he can join the prayer group–IN THE CENTER OF THE FIELD.

But, they are playing on Sundays so I suppose they are ignored.

Shoot, if it wasn’t the super bowl, I’d be staying home for the Daytona 500.

:)

13   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 24th, 2009 at 6:38 pm

Is it not curious that those who make so little of humanitarian externals, make so much of religious observance externals.

14   Neil    
January 24th, 2009 at 6:42 pm

…giant prayer circles.

Sounds rather Celtic, therefore pagan…

15   Neil    
January 24th, 2009 at 6:43 pm

Is it not curious that those who make so little of humanitarian externals, make so much of their culturally determined religious observance externals.

Just thought I’d add that…

16   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
January 24th, 2009 at 6:58 pm

#15: Ain’t that the truth!

17   Bo Diaz    
January 24th, 2009 at 8:55 pm

Wow. A lot of ugliness going on over there. Do they think their salvation is earned by going to Sunday evening service? Because it sure seems like it.

What a sad life they must lead, especially since most Sunday evening services I’ve been to would be improved by canceling them entirely.

18   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 24th, 2009 at 11:58 pm

And while people debate over days, there are millions who exist in much pain and confusion about much greater issues. I again have been moved in compassion for gay people. This came forth tonight.

http://judahslion.blogspot.com/2009/01/grace-for-gays-t-onight-as-i-watched.html

19   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 25th, 2009 at 12:02 am

Someone Searching

Face lost in the crowd
Feet wandering empty streets
Voice crying out loud
Heart aching with every beat

Someone searching
Searching for someone
Everywhere and endlessly
Wishing, waiting
Could there be someone?
Searching for
Someone searching

Soul battered and bruised
Pride wounded and left for dead
Ears deaf to good news
Eyes tear-drenched and sleepless red

Someone Searching
Searching for someone
Everywhere and endlessly
Wishing, waiting
Could there be someone?
Searching for
Someone searching

Oh I hear the cry
And I know the pain
Can it be denied?
That everyone has been
And will be someone searching

Love standing alone
Hands scarred by the nails of hate
Hope suffering long
Faith urging that it’s not too late

Someone searching
Searching for someone
Everywhere and endlessly
Loving, longing
Always there’s someone
Searching for
Someone searching
Searching for someone
Everywhere and endlessly
Loving, longing
Always there’s someone
Searching for
Someone searching

Ginny Owens

20   Brendt Waters    http://www.csaproductions.com/blog/
January 25th, 2009 at 9:31 am

I like how the first commenter calls the attendees of these churches ‘idiots’ and no one calls him out. Shades of the comments-on-Slice era.

21   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 25th, 2009 at 9:48 am

Brendt – this is the exact quote:

“After all, these idiots don’t follow the true Jesus anyway (as much as they think they do).”

That brings discernment to a new level.

22   nc    
January 25th, 2009 at 10:28 am

Yaaaaay!

by their fruit we shall know them…

23   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 25th, 2009 at 10:33 am

nc – you can find the Biblical truths about people who skip Sunday night in my book –

Crapology 101 - Taking depravity to another level.

24   Scotty    http://scottysplace-scotty.blogspot.com/
January 25th, 2009 at 10:44 am

Jerry #8: Oh, in case it doesn’t actually make it through moderation at ALL I made this note: I wonder if Kurt Warner (a devout Christian) should be chastised for actually playing in the game?

You should see the heat some us muscians take for playing primarily in secular bands!!

25   nc    
January 25th, 2009 at 11:18 am

#23.

Dang. I wanted to write that book.

Maybe you and I could collaborate on a “graduate level” degree program?

M.A. in Crapology (30 hours)
Systematic Crapology I-IV (12 credits)
Practical Crapology I-III (9 cr.)
The History of Crapology I-II (6 cr.)
Crapological Perspectives in Ethics (3 cr.)

26   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 25th, 2009 at 12:49 pm

Total Crapology - An unplifting devotional that plumbs the depths of depravity

Unconditional Craption - God picks which crap He wants

40 Days of Crap - a journey into the core of crap

Your Best Crap Now - a blueprint for successful crap

These and other books will help you more effectively display the piece of crap you really are and in so doing create a thirst for others to follow.

27   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 25th, 2009 at 1:00 pm

My favorive crappy christian books would be:

My Crap for His Highest

Jesus wants to saved crappy Christians

The Crap Wars

Marks of a Crappy Church

A new kind of Crappy Christian

Generous crappy orthodoxy

Ziglar on Crapping

How to write and sell a crappy Christian novel

12 Crappy Christian beliefs that drive you crazy

This could be a long list.

iggy

28   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 25th, 2009 at 2:43 pm

Somewhere after the invention of electricity and the electric light, the Sunday night service became viable, and then it became a law, which when disobeyed, means you are not following the true Jesus.

That is legalism squared.

29   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 25th, 2009 at 2:56 pm

My personal favorite book right now would be,

The Crap Driven Life

30   nc    
January 25th, 2009 at 4:18 pm

#29:
Subtitled: The Guide to Christian Jihadist Hermeneutics

31   Neil    
January 25th, 2009 at 6:00 pm

You should see the heat some us muscians take for playing primarily in secular bands!!

When ever anyone bring up this kind of logic to me I ask them if carpenters can only build building for ministry purposes, or teachers only teach in Christian schools, or…

32   Neil    
January 25th, 2009 at 6:02 pm

… or websites;

Craphouse Trails

Slice of Crap

Appraising Crap

Crap on This

A Little Crap

33   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 25th, 2009 at 9:21 pm

Craphouse Trails

Slice of Crap

Appraising Crap

Crap on This

A Little Crap

Niel, should we be giving them such great ideas?

:lol:

iggy

34   Aaron    
January 25th, 2009 at 9:22 pm

#26, 27, 32:

Ha!! Keep them coming! Ohhh, my sides hurt! *cries*

35   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 25th, 2009 at 9:54 pm

The newest sites I found.

Crap to You ministries.

Crap of the Master Radio.

A Lion haw Crapped.

Crapped in His Presence.

Extreme Theological Crap

Crap.vin.ist

Running Crap

The Crappy World View w/ David Wheaton

Crapping together for the Gospel

I think I need to stop now… I am about crapped out…

iggy

36   nc    
January 25th, 2009 at 11:23 pm

“Crap on This”

That’s perfect…and rich (no pun intended)

37   Neil    
January 26th, 2009 at 1:06 am

Seems this has run it’s course.

38   Brendt Waters    http://www.csaproductions.com/blog/
January 26th, 2009 at 1:08 am

by their fruit we shall know them…

nc, I know you were being facetious and simply quoting the guy who I referenced in #20, but it does bring something to mind.

Can we please mother-dog-slap everyone who misuses Matthew 7:16?

39   the template of general disdain    
January 26th, 2009 at 1:27 am

May God forgive you morons.
You claim to be better …..how?

40   merry    
January 26th, 2009 at 3:16 am

. . . I don’t think I’ve ever even been to a 5 pm service on a Sunday.

41   Ian    http://lostintheheartofsomewhere.blogspot.com
January 26th, 2009 at 5:09 am

My understanding of history is that teh Sunday evening service (as opposed to evensong which occurred every day) started as a response to the need for agircultural workers (at least here in the UK) to work on Sunday morning on all those duties that would wait – feeding animals, milking etc. So, the local parish church would do an evening service that blended divine office with ‘outreach’ (not a word that would have been used), probably from a patronising attitude that the poor needed ’sorting out’ while the rich must have been deserving enough anyway -or something.

Anyway – the point is that the service started for purely pragmatic, seeker-friendly reasons.

42   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 26th, 2009 at 8:10 am

Ian – I believe the Scriptures were written to accommodate those who can read which seems pragmatic and seeker friendly, no? And God introduced preaching as a pragmatic approach to ears. All of this seems so seeker friendly, no? :)

43   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 26th, 2009 at 8:23 am

Neil – was #37 a pun? :)

44   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 26th, 2009 at 8:51 am

Anyone want to read an short uplifting testimony from a former atheist? Here is a miracle:

http://jesusandtheatheist.blogspot.com/2008/11/thank-you-jesus.html

45   nc    
January 26th, 2009 at 10:04 am

#39

What do we need to be forgiven for?

Not being angry to the glory of yourself?

46   Brendt    http://csaproductions.com/blog/
January 26th, 2009 at 11:02 am

Well, Ian (#41), if you’re gonna start dragging facts into this… ;-)

My understanding as to how Sunday evening services came about on this side of the pond was the advent of the circuit preacher. Many small rural communities were not be able to support a full-time pastor, so a few of them would “share” one. He would walk or horse-back ride to the next town on his “circuit” once a week. Since the community may only get him once a month, they got as much preaching out of him as they could while he was there. Hence the Sunday evening service.

47   Brendt    http://csaproductions.com/blog/
January 26th, 2009 at 11:03 am

nc, at least he didn’t call us “idiots”. ;-)

48   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 26th, 2009 at 11:32 am

Talk about missing the point….

It isn’t about legalism. It is about priorities and the purpose of church.

Listen to their advertisements posted on the net. They are communicating something that the church has become in this seeker-sensitive culture. They are cancelling an established service because ‘everybody is going to be watching the superbowl anyway’

It is a symntom of the entire culture, and a misinterpretation of why we gather as a church. True believers desire fellowship. They would show up to church to fellowship with one other believer. Today we gather to ’see a miraculous sign’ so to speak; to see the pastor jump a motorcycle across the platform, etc. etc. This Sunday, the quality entertainment is the super bowl, so stay home.

Is it wrong to watch the superbowl? Nope. Is it wrong to gather with saved and unsaved friends to watch the Super Bowl? nope. Is it wrong to cancel a service because 90% 0f the people have messed up priorities? Yep.

I would rather worship together with another committed believer than watch the superbowl (even if the Vikings and the chargers were playing.

49   nc    
January 26th, 2009 at 11:36 am

Refresh my memory…are we talking about a church cancelling their only worship gathering for the game?

50   nc    
January 26th, 2009 at 11:37 am

I ask, cuz it seems that if you have a church with multiple services it can’t hurt to cancel one for the game.

51   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
January 26th, 2009 at 11:51 am

Is it wrong to watch the superbowl? Nope. Is it wrong to gather with saved and unsaved friends to watch the Super Bowl? nope. Is it wrong to cancel a service because 90% 0f the people have messed up priorities? Yep.

Oh get off your freakin’ high horse, PB!

As if you can correctly judge anyone’s priorities? As if you have the right to judge what other churches are doing? This is just the latest in the pharisees worrying about people living up to their made-up external definitions of what Christians should and should not do.

I’m sick and tired of one group of Christians thinking they have the right to tell others what they should and shouldn’t do. The ironic thing is that many of these people wouldn’t go to a Sunday evening service usually, and they’ll probably watch the game themselves, but this is just giving them a chance to pass judgment. It’s beyond ridiculous.

For those ADMs that do have Sunday Evening services, I have news for you. God stopped attending your Sunday evening services long ago. I wonder if you miss Him.

52   nc    
January 26th, 2009 at 11:53 am

47:

True. I mean, he did ask for God to “forgive us”…so it’s a step in the right direction, I guess.

Then again, I’m confused…Couldn’t Chris P/Template/whatever just extend the forgiveness himself? It’s clear he thinks he is in the Godhead.

53   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
January 26th, 2009 at 11:53 am

Not that it will help but the “church is us not a building or a service”.

Quotes because I’ve said this before.

54   nc    
January 26th, 2009 at 11:56 am

I’ve got another question:

What if a church does have a regular sunday evening service every week, well attended, a great time of worship, fellowship, giving, serving, evangelism, etc. (ooops, that’s the 5 purposes, isn’t it?)…

anyway…say they do all that regularly and then they decide 1 week they should encourage people to stay home, use the Super Bowl to build relationships with their lost neighbors, etc…

Does that still mean their priorities are wrong?

So the other 51 Sunday nights didn’t count or mean anything with respect to their “priorities” because 1 Sunday they did something different?

And that’s not legalism?

55   nc    
January 26th, 2009 at 11:59 am

51:

Why would you need God at your services when you already think you are God?

56   nc    
January 26th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

#39

Another thing:

I don’t know if anyone here ever claimed to “be better”.

so, thanks for putting words in people’s mouths and bearing false witness.

then again…considering your sacred position…you can “do whatever you want”, right?

I’ll let my church know that God has struck that part from the “Law that must be used to show people sin”.

Somebody call, Ray Comfort. We wouldn’t want him left in the dark.

57   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 26th, 2009 at 12:11 pm

#54
Well, I guess in that scenario it would be a whole lot different than announcing that we are cancelling services because no one will be there.

#51
As I stated earlier, we do not have a Sunday service, we will do what we do every other sunday, we will have a gathering at our home, fellowship, and eat with college kids. We will probably turn on the game. And talk about judging people’s motives (and I quote)

This is just the latest in the pharisees worrying about people living up to their made-up external definitions of what Christians should and should not do.
I’m sick and tired of one group of Christians thinking they have the right to tell others what they should and shouldn’t do. The ironic thing is that many of these people wouldn’t go to a Sunday evening service usually, and they’ll probably watch the game themselves, but this is just giving them a chance to pass judgment. It’s beyond ridiculous.

58   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
January 26th, 2009 at 12:15 pm

So, PB, how is that judging their motives? I don’t doubt they think they’re doing the right thing, but they are wrong. Where the ADMs are judging motives is by claiming to know that anyone who is canceling a service is bowing to culture, lukewarm, etc.

I will say this, though. At some point, we have to say those who have set themselves up as the judges of Christendom do expose the darkness in their hearts. Jesus said that from the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. So from vile hatred that is spewed from their blogs, it’s not a huge leap to take a guess at the state of their hearts.

59   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 26th, 2009 at 12:18 pm

#58
Good point.

Maybe Crn.info should look in the mirror.

60   nc    
January 26th, 2009 at 12:31 pm

59:

Yaaaaawn.

61   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 26th, 2009 at 12:32 pm

#8

I suspect Kurt Warner will be chastised frequently by the Steelers’ LB’s

62   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 26th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

#60

I’m sorry.

Nobody on this site has any problems in this area whatsoever.

You all are holy (self righteous) and above reproach (self righteous) and your judgements on motives are accurate without question (self righteous)

Talk about a ‘god’ complex

63   nc    
January 26th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

Another question:

What if a church has 5 identical weekend services and they say that 1 of them will be cancelled that weekend because they know most people will be staying at home anyway to watch the Super Bowl?

Is that still bad?
Especially when there are 4 other identical options for people to go to?

64   nc    
January 26th, 2009 at 12:37 pm

Don’t confuse my finding your comment tedious with any particular assessment of myself.

Thanks.

Nice try though.

I’ve never claimed anything like you described, PB.

Fail.

65   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 26th, 2009 at 12:44 pm

At 57 years old a look in the mirror is like watching a still frame of the Rocky Horror Picture Show!

66   nc    
January 26th, 2009 at 12:48 pm

Another thing, PB.

My laying the wood to Template about having too high an opinion of himself is based on his actual words.

He’s claimed people are not of the faith who are, he’s arrogated to himself knowledge about the intentions of people.

That’s called acting like God.

When I criticize that it’s based on the actual reality of what he does and says.

I know you’ve got this really concrete way of looking at things, but our criticizing self-righteousness doesn’t mean that we are self-righteous.

It’s a nice rhetorical strategy though…if it worked.

67   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 26th, 2009 at 12:49 pm

I am no longer amazed that PB picks the legalistic side of the argument… I mean… most the time he mouths grace… but fights for legalism… so his actions really place where his heart is… the Law…

I mean… here PB cancels his own services… (with some other so-called excuse) and still judges another church with condemnation for doing what he does…

So whatever PB… your actions speak louder than your words.

iggy

68   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 26th, 2009 at 12:59 pm

PB,

#62 I have some issue that a church cancels their service if it is the ONLY service cancelled… Yet it seems that they are not cancelling every and all services at some of these churches.

Really again PB who are you or who is Christ R to judge another man’s servant? If God is guiding your church I would think that the same for these churches… so why would you defend the hate spewed out over at Little Leaven against brothers and sisters in Christ?

Go and read those comments and notice the judging and condemning and even outright statements that not only are the pastors not saved, but those that attend their churches are not?

Notice not once has anyone ever stated that about the sites that CRNinfo speaks about?

Big difference there bro… even if I suspect you at times by your consistent denial of biblical tenants and actions toward others… I would never state that those at your church are not saved… maybe poorly lead…

iggy

69   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 26th, 2009 at 1:05 pm

Judging people’s priorities is always within the common standard of that particular day. Just a soft reading of Wesley’s journals would not only indict all of us, but render ua all unsaved if we were called to compare ourselves with ourselves – WHICH WE ARE NOT.

Assessing individual prioprities is God’s business, and without God’s grace we would all be without excuse. I believe the cancelling of a Sunday night service takes a place of the church’s important-o-meter just above how many handicap spaces should be in your parking lot.

70   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 26th, 2009 at 1:16 pm

I am not cancelling any service, Iggy, so thats a lie.

If we had a service ( at our church 2 years ago we did) I would be at the service and then watch the 4th quarter

Am I calling into question someones salvation? Nope. So Iggy, the law argument fails. I am only questioning priorities.

71   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 26th, 2009 at 1:18 pm

#69
What about chairs vs. pews?
Color of carpet?
contemporary or hymns?

I mean, all these important things…

God looks on the heart.

72   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 26th, 2009 at 1:20 pm

#66

Sure it does…you are elevating your standard of righteousness (not seeing a problem with not going to church and watching the Super Bowl instead) above the ‘ODM’ standard (church is for believers, God more important than Super Bowl watching, importance demonstrated by attending service)

73   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 26th, 2009 at 1:33 pm

PB,

As I stated earlier, we do not have a Sunday service, we will do what we do every other sunday, we will have a gathering at our home, fellowship, and eat with college kids. We will probably turn on the game. And talk about judging people’s motives (and I quote)

I did not mean to “lie” about you “cancelling” your service… so sorry… the point is

YOU DON”T EVEN HAVE ONE!!!!!

So you are worse that those who have multiple services and cancel one… one day a year!

At least by the standard you are protecting and arguing for… it seems you then are worse…

iggy

74   Bo Diaz    
January 26th, 2009 at 1:37 pm

Wait, so, pastorboy cancels all services on Sunday at his church, and that’s somehow cool, but this church cancels a single service amidst multiple services on one sunday of the year and that’s a problem?

How is this not favoritism and legalism all wrapped up in one?

75   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 26th, 2009 at 1:38 pm

I will add to #73 that PB then is the last to talk about priorities as even having a Sunday service is not important to him…

Sheesh…

Yet, he will attack others and support someone in judging and condemning pastors who do and cancel one service in 5 they have every Sunday…or whatever.

So according to PB a Sunday service is worth attacking and judging another pastor… yet he does not have any himself… and in fact only meets every other Sunday!

:lol:

Tell us more of YOUR priorities PB… this is really rich with irony…

iggy

76   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 26th, 2009 at 1:40 pm

PB,

Seriously… and you came here to tell us to check our own hearts?

:lol:

What a farce!

iggy

77   Neil    
January 26th, 2009 at 2:06 pm

I don’t think PB is canceling anything, Bo

78   Neil    
January 26th, 2009 at 2:07 pm

I’d like to see one thread w/o Iggy and or PB calling the other a liar…

79   Neil    
January 26th, 2009 at 2:12 pm

PB,

ADM’s castigate any church that changes its routine because of the Superbowl – allowing comments to go so far as to judge their salvation….

We call this legalism and get a little goofy with the whole “crap” stuff… maintaining that culturally defined service times are not the standard by which we should judge a person;s heart or intent…

And for that we are told we are the ones elevating our standards to a self-righteousness?

80   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 26th, 2009 at 2:13 pm

I never call PB a liar… Sheesh…

I apologized for stating he “cancelled” a service he does not even have…

iggy

81   Neil    
January 26th, 2009 at 2:16 pm

PB,

I do not care whether a church changes its routine this weekend or not. I will not judge them based on this whether they do or they do not. I will point out even judge, the “crapiness” of those who use their own non-biblical, culturally conditioned standard as a canon for judging the motives, heart, and even salvation of a their fellow brothers and sister in Christ.

82   Neil    
January 26th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

I know, but he called you one…

83   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
January 26th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

Sure it does…you are elevating your standard of righteousness (not seeing a problem with not going to church and watching the Super Bowl instead) above the ‘ODM’ standard (church is for believers, God more important than Super Bowl watching, importance demonstrated by attending service)

The whole point we’re getting at is that it isn’t about anyone’s “standard of righteousness”. The fact you think it is demonstrates that you’re missing the point completely.

As Christians, we have complete freedom in Christ, and we can choose to glorify Him through many different ways. Now obviously, there are many things that we can do that may not glorify Christ, and a lot of these are spelled out in Scripture. But many of them are not. There is no Biblical mandate on having a worship service on any particular day, at any particular time. There is freedom in that area. If a group of believers chooses to watch a football game instead of having a service sometime, then it’s their choice. If another doesn’t feel it’s right, then it’s their choice. One group does not have the right to impose its will on the other, though.

I don’t see what’s so confusing about this, other than that there are Christians who would rather be bound to their man made rules and have others beholden to them than live in freedom.

84   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
January 26th, 2009 at 2:19 pm

you are elevating your standard of righteousness (not seeing a problem with not going to church and watching the Super Bowl instead) above the ‘ODM’ standard (church is for believers, God more important than Super Bowl watching, importance demonstrated by attending service)

Actually, no, PB.

We’re suggesting that the “standard of righteousness” is that each church ought to follow Galatians 6:4 in determining how local events (ex. Superbowl parties, Indy 500 (here in Indianapolis, which greatly impacts traffic on Sunday afternoons and early Sunday mornings on Memorial Day weekend), etc.) ought to impact their schedule, since they best know what their church community’s needs are, rather than the ODM “standard of righteousness” which says that any random blogger can chastise and ridicule a church community, in which they play no part, for altering their gathering times to best meet the needs of the community.

85   Neil    
January 26th, 2009 at 2:25 pm

Speaking of PB’an tactics (one of which is to switch topics when backed into a corner)

I see that he never commented on the N. T. Wright video. I’d like to see PB recant that Wright is a universalist of any kind.

86   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 26th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

John, let me familiarize you with some of Ingrid’s unchristian verbiage, the same Ingrid that castigates the cancelling of one church service:

“Pastor Ruth Westheimer, also known as Mark Driscoll”

“With the coronation of the messiah over in Washington”

“Ted Haggard is a gift that just keeps on giving.”

“the jack-booted foot soldiers of Sodom”

“painted girls of Sodom”

And the list is endless. I quoted those to make this observation:

Ingrid’s church should cancel all their services since it seems obvious nothing spiritual is happening there.

87   Neil    
January 26th, 2009 at 2:33 pm

Rick,

While I share your disdain for Ingrid’s (insert a bunch of adjectives here) attitude. Do we knoe enough about the church she is active in to make this kind of statement?

We have said in the past that we should not judge a whole church by the sinful actions of a member. Maybe this should be applied to her fellowship as well.

(at the risk of appearing self-righteous, I would just like to point out to PB and the other detractors that this is the kind of self-policing and challenging of each other that you never see at ADM sites)

88   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 26th, 2009 at 2:41 pm

My comment was hyperbole meant to showcase the disconnect between Ingrid’s words and her actions. The church thing was just a literary prop, I know nothing about it. I do though surmise that Ingrid would not attend a church that was overwhelmed with grace and compassion, except maybe doctrinally.

I’m just guessin’.

89   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
January 26th, 2009 at 2:42 pm

Yeah, I don’t really know anything about Ingrid’s church, but I will say this. I feel bad for the pastor…

90   Neil    
January 26th, 2009 at 2:51 pm

Rick,

I understand and agree – but it’s a distinction worth making since.

91   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 26th, 2009 at 3:17 pm

Still missing the point, yall

Listen to this church’s advertisement.

They are saying the reason for cancelling. This reason has to do with most (not all) choose to watch the super bowl. They are even mocking the few (two) who might show up to find themselves locked out.

They forget that if there are two gathered in Jesus’ name, Jesus is there also.

This is a stupid argument.

And Iggy, not that it matters, but we have a service EVERY Sunday. We are changing nothing. Every SUNDAY we have an “after party” at my home where students come over and hang out, fellowship, eat, play, etc. We are changing NOTHING

But this makes me no more spiritual than anybody else.

92   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
January 26th, 2009 at 3:22 pm

They are saying the reason for cancelling. This reason has to do with most (not all) choose to watch the super bowl. They are even mocking the few (two) who might show up to find themselves locked out.

And they are well within their rights to cancel a service. Of course everyone knows the reason the service is canceled. What’s the issue?

I grew up in a church that did have a Sunday evening service, and we would typically cancel service before holidays like Memorial Day and Labor Day because many people were traveling and the like. It wasn’t saying anything about people’s love for God or anything. It was just acknowledging the reality of the majority of the congregation. It was also nice because it actually gave the people who served in the service a break.

Of course the modern-day pharisees don’t understand grace, so they think they’ll be given extra rewards in heaven for the number of church service they sit through. In reality, they remind me off this passage:

“And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.

93   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 26th, 2009 at 3:32 pm

# 91 And Iggy, not that it matters, but we have a service EVERY Sunday. We are changing nothing. Every SUNDAY we have an “after party” at my home where students come over and hang out, fellowship, eat, play, etc. We are changing NOTHING

# 51 As I stated earlier, we do not have a Sunday service, we will do what we do every other sunday, we will have a gathering at our home, fellowship, and eat with college kids.

Hmmm… so you do/don’t have a Sunday service?

Glad you cleared that up!

Remember words mean something… or again… is it “Words mean something?”

So which is it PB… you do/don’t have a service that is/is not cancelled?

:lol:

iggy

94   nc    
January 26th, 2009 at 3:35 pm

After working a long time in churches, I know that people will still not follow instructions/get the message even after weeks and weeks of lead time in letting people know about schedule changes, etc.

Making a little humor about that is now “mocking people” and disrespecting the presence of God?

You see, PB, THAT kind of take on it is exactly what is at issue here time and time and time again.

You may not like that they cancelled a service. You may think their reasons are crap. If you stopped there then you’d have a great discussion on your hands.

BUT…

you and your other ADM friends then go from there to making claims about the hearts of people, their relationships with God, etc.

THAT is the move that gets people upset and rightly so. AND THAT is exactly why to critique you and the others is NOT self-righteousness.

Naming self-righteousness is not being self-righteous.

And the fact that in your concrete way you just keep going back to the same tactics again and again and again is what elicits a big ‘ol yawwwwn.

95   nc    
January 26th, 2009 at 3:39 pm

btw, you’re right. This is a stupid argument. Remember your imam friends are the ones who started it.

furthermore, I think you might need to go back and read Matt. 18 and you’ll see that the “prooftext” verse about Jesus being with people gathered in his name is not about church services.

Ironically, it’s about those gathered in the Name of Jesus to reconcile people who are caught in sin (a la Mt. 18 process) and the guarantee that the Reconciler and his power are in that process.

Stop misusing the Scriptures.

96   Bo Diaz    
January 26th, 2009 at 3:54 pm

PB said earlier “If we had a service ( at our church 2 years ago we did) ….” implying that his church at one time had services on Sunday and now does not. Therefore, he was part of canceling all their Sunday services for every Sunday. And yet criticizes this church for canceling one of their multiple services on a single Sunday.

97   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 26th, 2009 at 4:06 pm

Bo,

Now I put up both PB’s comments on this thread and let’s get this straight.

# 91 And Iggy, not that it matters, but we have a service EVERY Sunday. We are changing nothing. Every SUNDAY we have an “after party” at my home where students come over and hang out, fellowship, eat, play, etc. We are changing NOTHING

# 51 As I stated earlier, we do not have a Sunday service, we will do what we do every other sunday, we will have a gathering at our home, fellowship, and eat with college kids.

He does/does not have a Sunday service so don’t lie/state the truth about his services held/not held every Sunday… PB made it very clear what he does/does not do at his church in those two comments… so read them together and try to understand… Try to read those two comments with charity… OK?

PB’s priority is to have/not have a Sunday service every Sunday which now gives him the privilege to judge and condemn other churches that let their yes be yes and their no be no…

:smile:

iggy

98   Bo Diaz    
January 26th, 2009 at 4:19 pm

WORDS MEAN THINGS DAMMIT!!!!!

99   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 26th, 2009 at 4:32 pm

Yes they do.

The church I was an associate pastor at two years ago had a Sunday evening service regardless of what was going on.

I am a church planter.

Each Sunday, we have a service.

After each Sunday service, we have an informal get together at my home.

We do not cancel services. In fact, we were among only two other churches in the area who held services when the weather forced all others to close. There were only a couple people who came, but we worshipped all the same.

This makes me no better than you.

I am not being self righteous. I am stating facts.

100   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 26th, 2009 at 4:33 pm

I am #100 again!!!

101   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 26th, 2009 at 4:41 pm

# 51 As I stated earlier, we do not have a Sunday service, we will do what we do every other sunday, we will have a gathering at our home, fellowship, and eat with college kids.

So at risk of being called out by Neil… you lied to us with this statement?

Just trying to figure out what words mean to you…

Again, why are you judging another church if they are not cancelling ALL OF THEIR SERVICES? I mean if the amount of people showing up does not warrant 5 services and the amount that show up fill the other 4… why are you and the other ADM’s so self righteous about all this? Isn’t 4 services enough when most churches only have one or 2 at the most on Sunday?

iggy

Note to Neil… I am not saying PB lied… but asking if he did as he seems he did or is really double minded and confused what he does/does not do and likes to state truths/untruths about his own church. :smile:

102   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 26th, 2009 at 5:02 pm

I find it funny that PB called me a liar when I took him at his own words… and though I apologized over his clear and undenialable contradicting statements… PB is content at name calling though it was stated out of his own confusing statements.

Cuz you know…

Words mean something…

iggy

103   Neil    
January 26th, 2009 at 5:48 pm

Iggy,

As we have seen before, Pastorboy sometimes seems to post in haste and says things that he should later regret, or things that are unclear. I believe this is the case here.

And yeah, calling you a liar over it was escalating…

104   Neil    
January 26th, 2009 at 5:54 pm

They are saying the reason for cancelling. This reason has to do with most (not all) choose to watch the super bowl. They are even mocking the few (two) who might show up to find themselves locked out. – pb

I watched the New Spring announcement and now think the position of PB and A Little Leaven even more vacuous. They will have three other services on Sunday – what’s the problem? And no one was mocked PB. – geesh, lighten up.

105   Neil    
January 26th, 2009 at 6:01 pm

Still waiting for PB to admit he was wrong to say N. T. Wright was a universalist.

106   nc    
January 26th, 2009 at 6:23 pm

RE: 100

You’re 100 again?

Sounds like you’re old and reincarnated.

;)

107   wilson    
January 26th, 2009 at 7:26 pm

#32. Neil Says:
January 25th, 2009 at 6:02 pm
… or websites;
Craphouse Trails
Slice of Crap
Appraising Crap
Crap on This
A Little Crap

#34 Aaron Says:
January 25th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
#26, 27, 32:
Ha!! Keep them coming! Ohhh, my sides hurt! *cries*

iggy Says:
January 25th, 2009 at 9:54 pm
The newest sites I found.

Crap to You ministries.
Crap of the Master Radio.
A Lion haw Crapped.
Crapped in His Presence.
Extreme Theological Crap
Crap.vin.ist
Running Crap
The Crappy World View w/ David Wheaton
Crapping together for the Gospel
I think I need to stop now… I am about crapped out…
iggy

#51 said “For those ADMs that do have Sunday Evening services, I have news for you. God stopped attending your Sunday evening services long ago. I wonder if you miss Him.”

#68. said “Really again PB who are you or who is Chris R to judge another man’s servant? If God is guiding your church I would think that the same for these churches… so why would you defend the hate spewed out over at Little Leaven against brothers and sisters in Christ?

Go and read those comments and notice the judging and condemning and even outright statements that not only are the pastors not saved, but those that attend their churches are not. Notice not once has anyone ever stated that about the sites that CRNinfo speaks about?”

______________________________________
Just like the ADMs you have some good articles on here from time to time but like the ADMs you analyze, you may just find yourself going too far.

What about this: Why not just start watching the game when the service ends (what are you really going to miss), or start the service slightly earlier, or have a shorter service (do you really need 45 minutes of rocking out?).

I don’t think people’s salvation is on the line because they want to watch the game, but if people would rather watch a game than attend church/read God’s word/fellowship – i.e. if we can’t live without football or can’t wait til we get home to watch the game, if we can’t shut out ‘a game’ from our minds for a couple of hours for the sake of the mutual encouragement and fellowship of our Christian brothers and sisters – then you may have an idol on your hands.

There will be other games. Football will continue. Football will live on. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with inviting your non-Christian friends over to watch the game either, but we don’t exist to be entertained like the world.

We have in the past at our church watched the game after the service. Those who want to watch, watch the game, those who don’t either hang around playing games or just go home. We do have freedom, we shouldn’t hold service times as sacred nor should we hold a game of football as sacred either.

108   Neil    
January 26th, 2009 at 7:49 pm

What about this: Why not just start watching the game when the service ends (what are you really going to miss), or start the service slightly earlier, or have a shorter service (do you really need 45 minutes of rocking out?).

Interesting choice of words “rocking out” – one brothers pejorative is another brothers worship… I believe the ADM’s would probably take issue with adjusting the service times at all – since it shows accommodation.

109   Neil    
January 26th, 2009 at 7:51 pm

…but if people would rather watch a game than attend church/read God’s word/fellowship – i.e. if we can’t live without football or can’t wait til we get home to watch the game, if we can’t shut out ‘a game’ from our minds for a couple of hours for the sake of the mutual encouragement and fellowship of our Christian brothers and sisters – then you may have an idol on your hands.

I’d agree if it were a regular thing – but once a year (and this comes up with the every year). I’d also be more apt to agree if all the services were canceled, but in the case of those sighted – they only canceled one of multiple…

110   Neil    
January 26th, 2009 at 7:52 pm

We do have freedom, we shouldn’t hold service times as sacred nor should we hold a game of football as sacred either.

Agreed – and the whole point of the original post was to address the false dichotomy they raised.

111   Neil    
January 26th, 2009 at 7:55 pm

…you may just find yourself going too far.

I suppose that is true. Though we tend to go too far in our humor and mocking of their legalism and ethnocentrism. I believe their “going to ffar” is much more dangerous as they judge another’s righteousness and standing before God.

…and I think

Craphouse Trails
Slice of Crap
Appraising Crap
Crap on This
A Little Crap

fits for the most part…

112   wilson    
January 26th, 2009 at 8:13 pm

#108: Interesting choice of words “rocking out” – one brothers pejorative is another brothers worship…

I would suggest that ADMs, worship leaders and CCM artists alike would use the words rocking out to describe what the air guitarist in the video was doing.

113   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 26th, 2009 at 8:21 pm

wilson,

After you have people who don’t know you judge and condemn you, call you names, insinuate that you are sexual predator (because you have a Myspace.com site that promotes an Online Christian Radio station) and claims you are not saved for having links to people they claim are heretics…

Having fun with those people who lie and slander and attack you and disregard the bible in their using of worldly tools to harm, me, my church, my family and friends… all the while claiming themselves as “biblical” and justifying their own sin right and left….

IOW… lighten up… until you have some of that happen to you and find in the end you can still laugh at it and about it… don’t judge us that can.

iggy

114   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 26th, 2009 at 8:22 pm

C – common
R - refuse
A - acting
P – pompously

115   wilson    
January 26th, 2009 at 8:30 pm

#111. Neil wrote: I suppose that is true. Though we tend to go too far in our humor and mocking of their legalism and ethnocentrism. I believe their “going to ffar” is much more dangerous as they judge another’s righteousness and standing before God.

I agree that they are on dangerous ground when they judge another Christian’s standing before God. I also agree that the use of humor can be helpful to show people their error, or the extremity of a position, I use it alot in my own conversations with people (perhaps too much sometimes).

Still, simply resorting to saying everything these people do is crap is neither constructive nor funny. Isn’t it enough to say “Slice said this. Points #1, 2, 3 are good, maybe #4 & 5 would be better expressed this way, we don’t agree with points #6 & 7 and here’s why, Scriptures A, B & C speak about this. Concluding statement” And we can have some healthy discussion about it.

Like I said, you have some excellent research presented here but some of the posts here do not garner much respect when they essentially write “this christian writes crap”. it is possible to analyze and critique without resorting to the simplistic notion that they are “crap”.

116   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 26th, 2009 at 8:38 pm

wilson – to be clear, in my opinion, CRN writes some reasonable stuff, same with Lighthouse trails, Mike Ratliff writes some great stuff, and Steve Camp the same, I know most of the people here would disagree with that. But most of what Ingrid writes is crap.

Plain and simple without humor.

117   Neil    
January 26th, 2009 at 8:39 pm

Still, simply resorting to saying everything these people do is crap is neither constructive nor funny.

Well… it’s probably not constructive I agree, but I do think it funny… (when applied to the ADM websites).

118   nc    
January 26th, 2009 at 8:45 pm

Actually, Wilson…

the “crap” theme comes from a running joke between me and Rick about theology that teaches people proclaims a gospel that tells people they are crap.

119   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 26th, 2009 at 8:49 pm

Wilson,

There is an ongoing joke you may not realize goes on here concerning “crap”…

Rick likes to refer to us as well as himself as “a peice of crap” in regards to being sinners.

THis came out of how Ray Comfort brings someone to feel like a piece of crap for the sins so he he can then lay Grace on them….

iggy

120   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 26th, 2009 at 8:50 pm

It is an evangelistic theme that elevates the fallen state of man above the revelation of Jesus Christ.

nc referred to it as “you’re a piece of crap” evangelism and I laughed for days. It was a masterpiece that still gets me, profound truth mixed with profound sarcasm. It is also a joke between my oldest son, a Bible school student, and myself.

It is the worst curse word I write and I feel so naughty! :)

121   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 26th, 2009 at 8:58 pm

Chris L,

I would agree with some things that CRN writes. though I have had run-ins with Mike R… I do think he does some great writing, though he hates anyone that disagrees with him and loves the “amen” choir. I am even friends with one writer at CRN who at one time asked me to read his submissions before he sent them in… LOL! And I really had not issue with him other than he seemed to make a lot out of nothing regarding Rob Bell talking about a prayer shawl.

As far a Lighthouse trails… I have not read much there that is based on anything factual…. maybe about Mormons and JW’s but the bulk is “crap” which then taints the good stuff.

Now the funny thing is I have come across some of Ken Silva’s early writings out there floating around… and they for the most part are good… yet, what he has become is not.

Ingrid will in a like a broken clock say something good maybe twice a month, but really the rest of the time I wonder who really reads her garbage.

I used to love Steve Camp… I mean the old SC before he repented of his ways… He was strong, prophetic and one could see his desire to reach the lost with love. My personal run-ins with him have shown me that unless he deems you worthy… he views you as a peice of crap… I feel sad for the person SC has become and the hate he spews in between sharing his Calvinist gospel…

iggy

122   nc    
January 27th, 2009 at 12:23 pm

SC’s website is a sanctimonious, high-minded, “cut and paste” joke.

It’s just longer winded version of Template’s praise of himself and being angry to the glory of yourself.

123   Steve    
January 27th, 2009 at 1:00 pm

“Now the funny thing is I have come across some of Ken Silva’s early writings out there floating around… and they for the most part are good… yet, what he has become is not.”

Kind of reminds me of Bob Larson, who’s become something of a caricature since his real heyday in the 1970s.

He used to have a really good thing going when he challenged Christian teenagers who listened to secular rock music bands like KISS and the like. He had a really good point when he asked them why they would spend so much time listening to music that is antagonistic to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

He started to lose it when he stepped out of his field of expertise and jumped on the anti-cult bandwagon. I think his heart was in the right place at first, but he’s degenerated into a shocking Satanism salesman who, at last glance, spent most of his time looking for money.

Anyone remember him?

124   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
January 27th, 2009 at 1:45 pm

I heard he needs 10 champions today and 5 heroes.

125   nc    
January 27th, 2009 at 2:03 pm

Bob Larson?

Isn’t he the one that goes around randomly identifying people with demons and casting them out…all for a fee..oops, I mean, Love Gift?

126   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 27th, 2009 at 2:09 pm

I have identified several demons in some of you. I will cast them out, just follow
the directions for PayPal.

127   nc    
January 27th, 2009 at 2:18 pm

you know Bob Larson has a “demon test” you can take online?

seriously.

128   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
January 27th, 2009 at 2:33 pm

How to tell if a song is demonic.

1. Does the song use the word “baby” in reference to a member of the opposite sex?

2. Does the song instruct you to rock ‘n’ roll all night and/or party everyday?

3. Does the song mention or allude to any J.R.R. Tolkien books?

4. Does the singer wear a codpiece?

If you can “yes” to any of these questions, your song may be demonic. Please discard of all copies immediately.

129   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 27th, 2009 at 2:40 pm

Gene Simmons isn’t demon possessed, he is possessed by a combination of three people:

P.T. Barnum, Hugh Hefner, and Bill Gates.

130   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 27th, 2009 at 4:48 pm

Riiighhht Bob Larson.

I used to love him… I would not miss a show.

Then… after some money “issues” (scandals) arrived… he went off the deep end.

I had no issue with his “cult” books. as I even have on I refer to at times. It was simple and less expensive that Walter Martins…

I even had to say Bob was open to God using rock after he met Stryper.

I think the real downfall was the luxury cruises… it was at that point I began to question… then he began the whole “demonic” thing… and well he is as stated, a caricature of his former self.

Which I have to agree… It seemed that Ken was someone approachable until the “Truth War” was pronounced… The “Truth War” became Ken’s “Demon” to attack… and so Ken seems so far gone that I really see no hope outside of God taking Ken to task.

I used to at least see some of the guys at CRN as open… until they began to threaten people with lawsuits.

Ingrid.. is another case. To me she is like the wife of a guy I knew a while back who’s wife left him as he was not “spitual” enough. She considered herself a “prophetess” and saw other men she deemed more spiritual than her husband. He was a hard working believer who loved his family and was crushed as his wife wanted to divorce him over this. It is that when someone looks at themselves and others as “more spiritual” or “more mature” or a “remnant” or whatever elitist lie they believe… they fall into the lie of favoritism and think themselves “higher” than others….

Really the issue of those like Ingrid are that they are like a seed that grows fast and tall, but has no real root system to support it… and in the end there will be a sad failing as the shoot falls under its own weight.

To look and judge others as the standard and see yourself as one that is or holds the standard misses that “no one is righteous” and we are all in that same boat. Only Jesus is right… and to see this as truth, is when we begin to see the root system grow deeper.

iggy

131   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 27th, 2009 at 4:53 pm

And as a kid I had an alter/shrine I built to KISS… and it was way cool… I took a cow skull and painted it with the combination of all the guys from KISS and then pasted a postcard of them in concert on the forehead… I attached a black light to the back so the light would shine out the eyes and nose…

Now, I have seen them a few times on TV and have to laugh at all that as they lost me with their disco song…. and now… when I see Gene I admire his empire of wealth he has made… but think KISS began to suck after their disco hit.

Peter Criss is said to be a believer in Jesus and has on occasion had bands that played Christian music…

Thought that was interesting…

132   John Hughes    
January 28th, 2009 at 9:28 am

Iggy: #130 — well written sir.

133   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 28th, 2009 at 9:43 am

Let us be clear, legalism is humanism. It comes in many forms, from religious observances to humanitarian demands.

When a sinners trust Christ as their only Savior he is a child of God. Period. We can encourage him to behave in a way that reflects that change, but we cannot make them laws that when not followed relegate him to an unsaved status. Only God knows that, and that type of standard setting is legalism.

We can also set up humanitarian standards that say people must do this or do that or they are not true believers. A person should help feed the hungry, but if he never feeds one hungry person it still does not mean he is not saved. Rules and standards are legalism and are the offspring of self righteousness.

Legalism is the illigetimate form of the ministry of the Holy Spirit. It is a spiritual bastard. (sorry)

134   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 28th, 2009 at 10:14 am

#133
And it all goes back to pride.

Amen Rick.

There is a legalism/humanism in the emergent movement, like Rick stated, in saying that we must do this or that for others to build God’s kingdom on this earth (of which He is perfectly capable). This same legalism/humanism demonizes those who desire to see the whole world saved through Christ via the proclamation of His Word. This is humanism/legalism and living by a code of conduct that makes one self righteous. It is sin.

There is a legalism in the ‘modernist’ church that goes to dress codes, music codes, hair codes, and what you can drink, eat, or do socially. This is humanism, and living by a code of conduct that makes one self-righteous. It is sin.

There are also those who take Grace to mean that we can do anything, believe anything, and say anything and we are covered by the grace of God. This is humanism, and idolatry, making the grace of God powerless to change and conform one into the true image of Jesus Christ. This is also sin.

135   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 28th, 2009 at 10:29 am

#105

NT Wright, like Doug Pagitt, has stated that they are not universalists. I do not agree with either of their self asessments. By definition, a universalist holds a wider grace position. N.T Wright, in his positions about Justification, and the view of Paul’s writings makes it clear that justification is corporate and future. In other words, (as is his church position) infant baptism enters one into a covenant, and you are part of the corporate justification of Christ’s ‘church’. As an Anglican…you can live like HELL your whole life, and because of an act on your behalf (infant baptism) you are corporately justified? and at the end will be justified? Give me a break.

The Bible is clear, the words of Jesus are clear: Strait is the gate, narrow is the road, there are few that will find it.

In my opinion, this wide grace view that he holds, this corporate justification, his description of hell and the very few that will go there, and his unclear position on what saves someone makes NT Wright a universalist in my view.

Of course, you all will say that I am wrong.

136   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
January 28th, 2009 at 10:35 am

As an Anglican…you can live like HELL your whole life, and because of an act on your behalf (infant baptism) you are corporately justified? and at the end will be justified? Give me a break.

This is such a strawman. Wright constantly encourages people in his writings to live with a “realized eschatology” – to live like they are redeemed. Whether or not a person is in or out is not our call to make – that’s all he believes about that. As far a baptismal regeneration goes, there are plenty of people on “your side” who believe in that as well.

You have basically said that Pagitt and Wright are universalists because you make up your own definition of a universalist. At least you finally admit it. There’s no point in arguing with someone who won’t agree to the rules. And you call us post-modern!

137   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 28th, 2009 at 10:41 am

Pagitt may not be a universalist, however I have heard him explain his version of the post death judgment of a Muslim who has not embraced Christ in an extremely unorthodox and unbiblical way. He like others seems very slippery.

138   nc    
January 28th, 2009 at 10:44 am

PB,

Well, you are wrong. We wouldn’t want to avoid the absolute Truth, would we?

139   nc    
January 28th, 2009 at 10:46 am

Does Wright really believe in baptismal regeneration?

I can say that, as an Anglican, there is actually a wide variety of opinions on it in our churches.

Same goes for how we see Eucharist…etc.

That’s the beauty and challenge of our tradition. No one person gets to speak for us.

140   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 28th, 2009 at 10:47 am

“That’s the beauty and challenge of our tradition. No one person gets to speak for us.”

You learned that from us Baptists!

141   nc    
January 28th, 2009 at 10:47 am

Another thing…

I don’t understand why people take the examples to such extremes.

I’ve yet to hear anyone say that you can be baptized, lived like hell and be ok.

In fact, I’ve heard the opposite proclaimed.

142   nc    
January 28th, 2009 at 10:48 am

140:

haha…

You baptists wish we learned anything from you…

;)

143   M.G.    
January 28th, 2009 at 10:50 am

PB,

Your definition of universalist, clearly, is not “someone who believes all will go to heaven,” it’s someone who “holds soteriological positions I disagree with.”

Fair enough. It’s an abuse of the word, but still fun to see where the point of disagreement comes from.

I’m not surprised by the abuse of the word, though, because in your world “liberal” is anything to the left of you, “socialist” is anyone who is not a Republican, and “non-Christian” is anyone who doesn’t look, act, talk, and preach like you do.

There is a truth war going on out there, PB, and I’m concerned that you’re on the wrong side of it.

144   nc    
January 28th, 2009 at 10:51 am

Another thing:

A basic rule of good communication, healthy arguing, etc. is that “I get to define myself”.

So if someone says: I am not a universalist.

Guess what? You’re in the wrong for insisting that they are.

And it means that YOU have to go back and start listening all over again.

145   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 28th, 2009 at 10:51 am

John the Baptist, my friend, the founder of our denomination! (the greatest man born of woman)

But we take no pride in the fact that we are the core of God’s flock.

146   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 28th, 2009 at 10:55 am

Look, Wright and Pagitt (and Bell) have a slippery (at best) version of who will be in the Kingdom.

Jesus made it very simple. You must be born again. (John 3:3)

Call it what you will; wider grace, restoration and reconciliation on the last day, future Justification…or universalism. It is still not the Bible. It is the broad way that leads to destruction. No matter how you live, like Hell or like a saint… you must be born again. There can be no argument there.

147   nc    
January 28th, 2009 at 10:55 am

M.G.,

I always have hated that “Truth War” language…

Considering the gas-bag who started pushing it and speaking of people as “spiritual terrorists”, etc. etc….

I just think the “Truth War” is a bunch of people throwing a tantrum after finally waking up to the fact that their way of thinking/seeing/speaking about Christianity was thankfully left behind long ago.

Isn’t it interesting that most of the people they “fight” against don’t even really address them or care about what they have to say?

There’s no war if people won’t fight with you.

And all it does is serve to expose them for what they are.

148   nc    
January 28th, 2009 at 10:57 am

So…has Wright denied that people need to be born again?

Or do you just not like how he understands “being born again”?

149   Neil    
January 28th, 2009 at 11:00 am

NT Wright, like Doug Pagitt, has stated that they are not universalists. I do not agree with either of their self asessments. – PB

In other words… “I dismiss what they say in favor of what I think they say.”

I’m no fan of Pagitt.

If words mean things… Wright is clearly NOT a universalist.

150   Neil    
January 28th, 2009 at 11:11 am

N.T Wright, in his positions about Justification, and the view of Paul’s writings makes it clear that justification is corporate and future. . In other words,… – PB

It is in “your others words” that you show your lack of understanding Wright.

Only a renewed heart can believe in the resurrection: only penitent heart can submit to Jesus as Saviour and Lord. Because of the work of the Son and the Spirit, God rightly declares that Christian believers are member pf the covenant family. – NT Wright

Here we have Wright speaking of renewed hearts, penitent hearts, and believers being in the covenant community.

Pastorboy, I believe you have created another caricature, that of the stereotypical Anglican, and you are projecting that onto Wright.

151   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 28th, 2009 at 11:12 am

Does Wright even believe one needs to be Born again?

His ‘testimony‘ is a bit cloudy on that point….

I grew up in a church-going family, a very sort of ordinary, middle-of-the-road Anglican family where nobody really talked about personal Christian experience. It was just sort of assumed like an awful lot of things in the 1950’s were just sort of taken for granted. So you went to church. It was assumed you said your prayers. You read your Bible.

…..That’s probably far enough I guess. I don’t have a Damascus road experience to record. I don’t have anything like that. It’s kind of a steady growth with some wonderful movements in the middle of it.

152   Neil    
January 28th, 2009 at 11:13 am

Of course, you all will say that I am wrong. – PB

Only when you are, John… only when you are.

153   Neil    
January 28th, 2009 at 11:16 am

Does Wright even believe one needs to be Born again?

I am not going to engage in a conversation with you if you switch topics when… we can address that his “born-again” later.

Point is – your comments, as I have shown, that corporate justification =universalism in incorrect. I have also shown that he does not believe your Anglican stereotype of baptism is your ticket.

154   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 28th, 2009 at 11:27 am

Trevin Wax: So how would you share all of this with an individual in the evangelistic task, if an individual were to come up and to say, “What must I do to be saved?” “How can I become a part of this…”

N.T. Wright

: I would want to know a lot about where they were coming from. I mean, if I had two minutes, I would tell very, very simply the story of Jesus.

I once on a train was approached by a Japanese student who saw me reading a book about Jesus. He didn’t know much English. He said, “Can you tell me about Jesus?” I was about to get off the train. I simply told him (he didn’t know the story) that there was this man who was a Jew. He believed that God’s purposes to rescue the whole world were coming to fulfillment. He died to take the weight of evil upon himself. He rose to launch God’s project and to invite the whole world to join in with it and find it for themselves. How long did that take me? 35 seconds? That’s more or less it.

However, when I think of the real people that I meet, I think both of bright university students in Durham University and of unemployed mineworkers in the pit village five miles down the road. Total, total disjunct. And I really believe…

Look at what Paul does in Acts. No two speeches are alike. OK, he will have repeated himself here and there, but he says it the way these people need to hear it.

And though the story is very simple… If someone were to say, “What must I do to be saved?” I’d be inclined to say, “Are we talking about rescuing your mortgage or your marriage or your eternal salvation or what?” because people have layer upon layer upon layer of things to be saved from. We can deal with all of them, but we have to find where the shoe pinches for them and then that’s the point of entry into an authentic grounding of the gospel in their reality.

Peter:

37 Now when m they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus:

Ye must be born again John 3:3

15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

155   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
January 28th, 2009 at 11:31 am

I love, love, love when a random pastor on the internet tries so hard to take down a person like Wright. Seriously, PB, you’re just making yourself look bad. Take your vendetta elsewhere. No one’s listening anymore. OK, buh-bye…

156   nc    
January 28th, 2009 at 11:32 am

And still yet…

Only a renewed heart can believe in the resurrection: only penitent heart can submit to Jesus as Saviour and Lord. Because of the work of the Son and the Spirit, God rightly declares that Christian believers are member pf the covenant family. – NT Wright

157   nc    
January 28th, 2009 at 11:33 am

sounds a lot like Peter and Jesus, PB.

158   nc    
January 28th, 2009 at 11:37 am

another example of missing the point: http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/uncategorized/smiling-at-socialism-and-scorning-the-bible/

159   nc    
January 28th, 2009 at 11:38 am

People are free to disagree about economics, etc.

But these people say emergents are compromised with “the culture”?

160   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 28th, 2009 at 11:39 am

#155

Sorry, Phil, for stepping on your idol.

161   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 28th, 2009 at 11:41 am

NC:

“Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values…. Now this is going to be difficult for some who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible as many evangelicals do….” Barack Obama

162   Neil    
January 28th, 2009 at 11:46 am

nc,

Do not let Pastorboy bait and switch you… he does this constantly. He’ll make a comment as he did in #135. But when other show he is mistaken (if he is) instead of engaging in a discussion on that topic, he switches to another accusation.

I will do two things; 1) create a post of N. T. Wright and how someone belongs to the Christ. it will probably not satisfy Pastorboy, since Wright when reference John 3:3 say “born from above” – which is not the right code), 2) I will gladly engage Pastorboy if he stick to one topic and/or accusation at a time.

163   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 28th, 2009 at 11:49 am

Okay, so whats the Topic?

You brought up NT Wright on this thread Neil…# 105

164   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 28th, 2009 at 11:50 am

You have to pardon me…I am ADD and ODD

165   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
January 28th, 2009 at 11:51 am

Sorry, Phil, for stepping on your idol.

Whatever. If you actually demonstrated you were intelligent enough to truthfully interact with what he’s written, it would be one thing. Right now, you’re just pulling crap out of your butt to hold up your trembling strawman.

It’s useless trying to reason with someone who’s willfully ignorant.

166   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 28th, 2009 at 11:54 am

Phil, none of this stuff is out of my but. It is from NT Wright’s Pen and his lips.

Neither of which are my butt, or look like my but (except when NT’s lips are pursed).

Sorry again for stepping on your precious idol.

167   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
January 28th, 2009 at 11:57 am

Anyone can make Wright say things he doesn’t say when one reads bits and snippets and doesn’t read him in his entirety.

168   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 28th, 2009 at 12:00 pm

#167

I have read Bell’s last book in its entirety, and you still criticize me for my conclusions.

There is no winning when you question the post-modern prophets like Wright, Bell, Pagitt, and McLaren.

It is amazing….when one questions Christ, there is not nearly the clamor on the level of when one questions the pet teachers of this age.

Kind of sad.

169   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
January 28th, 2009 at 12:00 pm

Anyone can make Wright say things he doesn’t say when one reads bits and snippets and doesn’t read him in his entirety.

Exactly.

Taking a few paragraphs out of context from an interview to back up a conclusion you’ve already come to is next to meaningless.

170   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 28th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

Fortunately, Christ saved me, I am of Christ.

I am not of MacArthur, Piper, Calvin, Arminius, or even Freuh.

I am of Christ.

You attack Him, thats when I will get upset (though I know He can defend himself)

171   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
January 28th, 2009 at 12:10 pm

A further problem, since I’m on a roll now, is that no one has ever said Wright, Bell, McClaren or Freuh have it all right. Of course there’s things about their theology that ‘don’t add up’ so to speak.

For example, I’m not a big fan of Wright’s understanding of hell.

I’m not a big fan of Rob Bell’s glasses.

I think McClaren is a theological nut job.

The problem is that it’s not up to me. I try to debate theological ideas, and they are all only ideas, without assuming a person is going to hell because their idea doesn’t equal mine. This is the problem, John. And it’s a real, significant, problem.

But I’ll say this about Wright: For the most part, he on target.

I used to get angry when people would mock some of my favorites or criticize their teachings or theological underpinnings. Then I learned to read critically. You know what? DA Carson is not right about everything–as far as I am concerned. But his rightness does not depend upon my opinion.

For example, I am right. But that doesn’t mean anything as far as your opinion is concerned. It means that before God, I am free.

It’s called grace. And dudes like Wright, Bell and McClaren all have to stand under that same grace and before the same judge.

172   Bo Diaz    
January 28th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

It is amazing….when one questions Christ, there is not nearly the clamor on the level of when one questions the pet teachers of this age.

That’s because no one has actually questioned Christ.

173   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 28th, 2009 at 12:24 pm

Two questions that would illuminate at least the foundation of a person’s beliefs:

1. Will there be anybody in hell?

2. Will there be anyone in heaven who did not believe in Jesus before he died?

Having read some of Wright’s quotes I cannot consider him a universalist. Having listened to Paggit explain what happens to a devour Muslim after death, his explanation seems self invented at best.

174   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 28th, 2009 at 12:26 pm

I’m not a big fan of Rob Bell’s glasses.

Boy, thats a harsh critique if I ever heard one… LOL!

;)

175   Bo Diaz    
January 28th, 2009 at 12:26 pm

I am of Christ.

You attack Him, thats when I will get upset (though I know He can defend himself)

How is this at all anything like Christ? We’ve all seen what you do when you get upset and try to defend the living God. You go on the offensive and try to destroy the individual even if it means twisting and lying about them. But, even if your words weren’t inherently dishonest the entire spirit of what you do is that of the world. You attempt to flex your power in order to destroy (just as you do in real life ala your claim that you would run Bin Ladin down with your car if you could). Other than the obvious difference in scale, how are you not like Caesar?

176   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
January 28th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

#173

Wrights view: Only those who refuse to live in the purchase of justification that Jesus made for them…

Certainly not because of sin, or of lack of repentance…but a refusal to live in the reality (as Bell puts it) of being reconciled.

This is real close to universalism, if not Christian Universalism.

177   Rick Frueh    http://http?//followingjudahslion.com
January 28th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

John – that sounds like faith, but at worst its works but surely not universalism which means all will be saved.

178   nc    
January 29th, 2009 at 2:21 pm

Couple things:

I don’t see how the Obama quote has anything to do with the article link I posted.

second, #170
Paul didn’t have good things to say about people who went around saying “they are of Christ” in the Corinthian Church. They were probably the worst of the fractious lot…trying to take the “high minded” route.

PB, you would do well to take note.