Being a preacher in a local church has given me insight that, frankly, I would rather not have when it comes to the church. I have met people in the church who are, I’m sad to say (and not that I am perfect mind you) who are among the meanest, most ungracious people I have ever met. That is a sad, sad, sad, thing to say; may God forgive me.
This is not to say, again, that I am perfect nor that I have never invited the wrath of some folks. There are plenty of times when my own weak personality, quick judgmentalism, forked tongue, and short temper have contributed much ammunition to the weapons used by these angry folks. I say with much regret that there are times when, as a preacher, I am as dumb as a sack of potatoes.
Grace is God’s on-going exertion of resurrection energy in the life of a justified individual to perfect in them the image of Christ (Colossians 3:9-10). It’s called sanctification. It is not an easy project by any stretch of the imagination. In some ways, I suspect that it is just as ‘painful’ for God as it is for the child. If God disciplines his children as a Father, and I believe he does, I don’t suppose it is any less hurtful for God, as Father, than it is for me when I discipline my sons. But what I have noticed, all too frequently, is that ministers are not afforded that grace. Congregants are; preachers are not. Preachers are not afforded the reality of being human thus when they are scrutinized they are scrutinized as a little above humans. And when they fail, they fail worse than the satan.
Shouldn’t preachers, I have a special place in my heart for them, be afforded the same courtesy of allowing that God’s isn’t quite finished with them yet?
Thus an entire genre of literature had to be invented in order to help preachers not only survive such massive assaults, but also to prevent them from going bonkers and winding up in the Psych ward of a local hospital. I just finished reading Well Intentioned Dragons which was a mind-boggling look at the stories of some preachers who had to endure such devastating pressure in their ministries. I highly recommend this book. Currently, I am reading The Wounded Minister by Guy Greenfield. I’m only just starting it, but Greenfield’s approach is nothing short of ‘in your face’. He takes a no-holds-barred, no-prisoners approach to writing about the insidious nature of those who have made it their ‘ministry’ to destroy those who serve in some ministry type position in the church or para-church.
I’d like to share a paragraph or three from this book with you. After listing seven characteristics of ‘clergy killers’ Greenfield writes:
Clinically speaking, who are clergy killers? What has made them this way? Several possibilities may exist. They may possess distinct personality disorders (for example, they may be antisocial, borderline paranoid, narcissistic). These conditions will be discussed in more detail later. It is also possible that clergy killers have been victims of abuse, either in the past or the present. Inadequate socialization (the process of becoming human), arrested adolescence, or violent role models may be behind their behavior. Some may have a perverse, voyeuristic, and vindictive taste for the suffering of their victims. Others have learned to throw tantrums to get their selfish way. They have learned how to distract, confuse, lie, and seduce to do harm to the vulnerable.
Clergy killers would or destroy either by direct attacks or by inciting others to inflict the wounds. Sometimes they induce victims to self-destruct by harassing them to the point of frustration and anger. This is the minister who counterattacks angrily from the pulpit. Most congregations will not tolerate for long a minister who expresses angry outbursts during his sermons, however justified he may feel.
Understanding how any person can become a clergy killer is complex and difficult. Most Christians in most churches have never known one, but it takes only one or two in a church to create havoc and bedlam. Because these people live in denial as to their true nature, they would not see themselves in this chapter if they were to read it. Clergy killers have surrounded and insulated themselves with a whole array of defense mechanisms and justifications for their actions. They firmly believe that what they are doing in harming and terminating a minister is the right thing to do. For them, it is the will of God. Nevertheless, they are sick and mean people. (30-31)
In my own experience, I can say that this is exactly the truth. What Greenfield is talking about is the local church (of which I am a big fan). Take these thoughts and extrapolate them just a bit. Imagine that the church also included an online community of several millions of people. Imagine that ‘local church preachers’ also happen to be ‘global church preachers’ because they write books or podcast sermons or pray at inaugurations. Online Clergy killers are no different than local church clergy killers. They may have a bigger audience, perhaps a little more clout, but they are no less sick; no less mean.
I can tell you that such activity in the local church has ramifications for the church’s witness and ministry in the community where it is located. I believe it keeps people away from the church. I can testify that in one church I served, a clergy killer went so far as to sit in a local restaurant and talk badly about the church, and the preacher (me), and do his best to persuade people not to worship with us. Now, extrapolate that thought and apply it to the internet and it becomes apparent what the problem is. Far from saving people to the glorious Gospel of Christ, online clergy killers are destroying the church–the body for which Christ Jesus gave up his life.
I believe in my heart that something is going to have to give sooner or later. At some point, online clergy killers are going to have to realize that they are not helping the cause of Christ because they are not promoting peace, not displaying the fruit of the Spirit, not putting their good deeds on display so that people might give praise to the Father in Heaven. Maybe it is time for peace.
Lord, help us. How, O Lord, how can there be peace?
56 Comments(+Add)
I think this has always been an issue within churches, as it seems there are always people who will try to grasp for power. And there’s no mistaking that’s what it actually comes down to. People who fear they are losing power over “their” church.
I think the sad thing now is that there is a cottage industry online dedicated to convincing these people they are right and encouraging them to keep on harassing their pastors. It’s sad when life in a church becomes a battle, but it certainly seems many see it that way.
I guess when you’re engaged in a “truth war”, any tactic is deemed acceptable in the battle if you’re convinced you’re fighting for the truth.
Lets call it what it is: sin. This is individuals in the church acting in a truly worldly way. They are attempting to beat down and dominate their brothers and sisters in Christ in a way that is anti-Christ, and is like Rome and the Pharisees rather than like Christ.
Amen, Jerry
When you have the Online Discernment Mafia, like CRN.info, and the actual Mafia sites that attack Pastors like Ken Silva, and faithful women like Berit Kjos and Ingrid Shleuter, I can see how it wears down and grades on them…
I agree with Jerry. We should be all about peace. We shouldn’t sit back and attack these faithful servants of God.
Whoops…wrong site.
Amen, Jerry.
When you have the Online Discernment Mafia, like CRN.info, and the actual Mafia sites that attack Pastors like
Ken SilvaRob Bell, and faithful women likeBerit KjosPhyllis Tickle andIngrid ShleuterMerry, I can see how it wears down and grades on them…There, fixed it for this site. Wouldn’t want any logs in the way.
Good Book, one I have read. And I have met all of these dragons here, and in local ministry.
faithful pastors and faithful women in the ame category? I believe Jerry means actual congregation members who share the local faith comunity of the same local fellowship.
The internet? Different, a buffer zone that shields your family and you are not being attacked by people upon which you have invested your life and ministry.
Different.
Ingrid is faithful but it’s not to Christ, more like her news alerts.
Amazing, simply amazing… Although it shouldn’t be given your track record. The fact you will sit and defend men and women who try to make a living bashing other pastors and accuse us of attacking them is just dumbfounding.
You might as well say that I would be guilty of attacking a person if I intervened when I saw him trying to rape a woman in the street. And to me, that analogy isn’t much different than what the ADM types do. The Church is Christ’s bride after all. I can’t imagine He appreciates people who spend all of their time attacking her all that much.
Interesting that pastorboy would referred to a female divorcee who has usurped the role of elder as “faithful”.
I guess we now have an idea of what he means when he says he believes the Bible is true.
Faithful women? Keepers at home with the ornament of a quiet and meek spirit. You do the math.
#6
I would never attack those who are part of the actual bride of Christ.
#6
Though I will test the spirits, and I will discern the spirits, I will warn, I will encourage, I will exhort.
And if the fruit is not there? I will warn the true bride.
First of all how can you know who are tares? And secondly why do you seem ambivilent about Ingrid who practices this regularly?
You know, PB, I was offering a call to peace. Why did you have to insinuate into it your own angst?
There is nothing faithful, at any level, about the ‘ministry’ of attacking pastors either locally or online.
This site does not attack. It defends. There is a huge, major league difference between those two ideas.
The only obligation you have is to your local flock. Why do you assume that you are part of the ‘true bride’? Who are you to inspect fruit?
Every time I try to give you the benefit of the doubt you go and mess it up. *Sigh*
Fruit? You really want to get into this discussion with the ADMs? Which of these things:
is Ingrid exhibiting when she goes into one of her tirades? Or which of them is Silva exhibiting when he attacks Warren?
I might not agree with McLaren on a lot of things, but I have to say that he seems to exhibit more fruit in his writing than the vast majority I see on the ADM blogs…
just sayin’…
“I might not agree with McLaren on a lot of things, but I have to say that he seems to exhibit more fruit in his writing than the vast majority I see on the ADM blogs…”
It’s not either/or.
Ah, yet another example of PB’s “discernment”. A female divorcee acting in the role of meta-elder, that’s faithfulness. A pastor who subscribes to universal atonement, but time and again eschews universalism, well then its time to go to war (and given PB’s explicit endorsement of violence, maybe literal war).
PB,
I states on my site that it is a satire/parody site… and it is… I poke fun at everyone… ODM or not… and have been contacted by some who laugh and enjoy it… not counting Ingrid who “has trouble not hating” me. But that is her own issue not mine.
Your sites are not and have outright lies and slander agaisnt people… you twist their words to mean the opposite and then attack their person, church, ministries and families…
Then if anyone does that to you; you whimper like a baby.
So please do not compare what I do on my parody sites to be anything like you outright do on your site… in fact… I am more encouraging to ODM’s on my site and I hold them to their own standard… so if it sting you, then you are not holding your own standard. So either hold it or live by grace and give it to others.
iggy
Jerry,
All too often, this site ‘defends’ by ‘attacking’ which is what I was attempting to illustrate.
The ODM’s believe (and I think rightly) they are defending the orthodox Christian faith. You all believe you are defending those they are defending against by attacking them, and all too often, their character.
Not much of a difference, IMO
#17
A difference of opinion about theology and method is a far cry from putting pornography on peoples sites and insinuating that this is the way they grow their church.
just sayin….
I am having trouble not hating everyone.
Is this another example of your faithfulness PB? Stating outright lies? If you’ll recall Iggy said he did not put anything on your site, and ultimately only criticized you for your negligence.
*STOP* Let’s not go down this particular path (the porn link thing) again, please. *STOP*
The problem is, moreso with Ingrid and her ilk, the desire to judge/determine who is and who is not part of the Bride…
This is the definition of a clergy killer as I noted in the OP.
Too late.
I echo #22’s sentiment.
Please don’t ruin my beautiful and eloquently short post with tripe such as that discussion.
PB,
Since you keep bringing this up… Again I did not hack your site and stop lying about me as having done so…
Please… I apologized for joking about it when Neil pointed it out… but had nothing to do with hacking your site.
If this continues I may get legal counsel in how to deal with your defamation of my character.
So I insist you stop lying about me over that… and realize I had nothing to do with it…
I realize you think Google stated I did something… yet all I did was Google you site to get to it… I did nothing as far as hacking into it and changing anything. I simply cut and pasted you statement of faith to past it here on this site. Other than that I did nothing.
Again, you have attacked me many times with libel slander and this is the worse with total disregard to me, my church, my ministry and my family… stop lying about me.
Why do you insist on trying to harm me?
iggy
Please remove the reference of the lies PB is spreading about me… I have stated many times I had nothing to do with putting porno that was found on his site. I am also asking PB to be put on moderation as he cannot stop spreading this lie about me.
iggy
Actually leave the comments…
I may need to get legal counsel in dealing with PB and his lies and need evidence if arbitration does not work.
iggy
Iggy – are you for real?
Paul C,
What do you mean am I for real. I have contacted PB over this lie and am getting others to talk to him about this lie…
Unfortunately if that does not work, PB has lied about me enough and I am seriously thinking of seeking legal counsel to have him stop.
Why not ask PB if he is real… why would a so called pastor continue to lie about someone and bear false witness about them?
iggy
Iggy – I guess I find it difficult to justify taking someone to court over badmouthing or lying about me. You seem very touchy about your reputation.
If someone is lying about you, rest assured that God will sort it out, but taking the route of a lawsuit or cease-and-desist is ungodly – especially in such a petty, petty case.
I didn’t ask PB if he is for real as I wasn’t aware of his outrageous lying spree against you.
That we may “attack” in our efforts to defend is true. And I will not bother to go down the road of how we are and/or seek to be diferent.
The fact that you see “not much difference” speaks volumes in and of itself.
Three thoughts:
1) Great post.
2) Wasn’t “Clergy Killers on the Loose” an Ed Wood movie title?
3) I think Greenfield overstates his “how did they get this way” case. The examples that he gives (distinct personality disorders, victims of abuse, violent role models, etc) are somewhat extreme relative to what breeds some of these folks. The background of many is often far more subtle, and therefore, harder to discern.
Paul,
Hacking a site is illegal… to claim I did so then claims I broke the law.
http://www.ncsl.org/programs/lis/CIP/hacklaw.htm
If PB claims I teach error which he has I don’t care… but to state I broke the law and hacked his site is beyond just a personal attack. It is stating that I have broken laws and should be charged with intent to harm him.
Since I am innocent in the act having not done it and have asked PB to stop stating I have… and he continues to do so, what resource other than to take legal action.
Again, I am asking some to arbitrate and help deal with this issue.
There is a difference between attacking someone with lies and claiming they have committed a crimes.
iggy
Iggy – the continuous saga between you and PB is bordering the ridiculous. You undermine yourself by playing this out publicly more than the supposed-slander you are trying to defend. Has anyone charged or threatened to bring charges against you? If not, get a grip and move on.
Pastorboy (#18):
From (only!) the front page of Slice:
* Blasphemers
* many … churches are still dead
* One thing they didn’t have during the Great Depression was Rick Warren. I don’t know how anyone survived.
* worthless drivel
* spiritual wolf
* exploiting sheep for his own ambitions
* out to lunch doctrinally
* perverted, lost and sociopathic … pastors
* Pastor Ruth Westheimer, also known as Mark Driscoll
* Mark Go-Go Driscoll
PB, you can’t seriously contend that these are words of defense and not attack.
*STOP* Let’s not go down this particular path (the porn link thing) again. *STOP* – Neil (I omitted the “please”)
Paul C,
thanks for your opinion… it was not my choice to play it out publicly as I have tried privately already… and there is much going on still that you do not know about.
Yet, since PB seems to want to drag this out publicly then please address him… I did not want to continue and until today felt the issue was dealt with….
So again thank you but please take this to PB as he insists this be public.
iggy
Paul C,
Also I am working at it not having to be resolved legally, yet if PB insists in his bearing false witness against me in that I broke the law and hacked his site… then it is in PB’s court not mine.
PB has created this situation and I want it to stop before it goes any further.
iggy
Then I again request that you heavily moderate PB from now on since he insists on bringing it up over and over…
I want it to stop also as I am tired of the accusations against me….
iggy
#9:
There you go again…
you bucking for the Holy Spirit’s job or just adding to the Gospel?
I’d love to know.
Another thing:
Ingrid isn’t a pastor.
Ken claims to be a pastor. His own denomination–the ordaining body upon which he established his cred. doesn’t support him.
That being said…Even as a pastor, Ken has no spiritual authority other than what relates to his local church.
He may be a pastor, but he’s not my pastor, or really anyone elses here.
Kjos, whoever she is, ummm…how is she “clergy”?
PB, here again you have a hard time with that concrete way of thinking.
Your jihadist friends come out with guns blazing against pastors–acting as clergy killers–and you confuse disagreeing with them as attempting to kill them.
Attacking people, questioning their relationship with God, etc. etc. etc. is all the inciting behavior of the ODM’s. Not laying down for it is NOT THE SAME THING.
I don’t know why you continue to insist that it is.
Rob Bell isn’t hurting the 13 people who meet in Silva’s living room. So for him to go on an extended public tantrum–oh, sorry. Ministry.–about the guy is ridiculous.
To say so isn’t “assassinating him”.
sheeeesh.
#19
Iggy, I didn’t accuse you of anything except insinuating that I used porn to attract people to my church.
Awful sensitive for someone who is not guilty….LOL
Break it down, Neil…
Iggy, #19
The two are separate:
A difference of opinion about theology and method
is a far cry from putting pornography on peoples sites - very non-specific as to whom
and insinuating that this is the way they grow their church. Very specific.
But your reaction demonstrates something different than your innocence, which I had accepted.
I am watching Ted Haggard on Larry King. He calls himself a liar and a deceiver and admitted to all the accusations. He is repentant and openly supports the current pastor of his fromer church.
He allowed Larry King to show painful and indicting clips that showed him lying and being a hypocrite. He even admitted to some thoughts but not compelling. He was certainly transparent and open.
I am sure that some will pounce upon him again and demean the Savior and Forgiver who is forgiving and restoring one of His fallen children. I pray that many who watch the program will see the redeeming and forgiving power of Jesus and seek Him personally. His story is a study in breathing life into disgraced and tarnished and rebellious bones, and his wife is a reflection of what a Christian wife should be.
A bruised reed shall he not break…
Whatever PB, you have absolutely no credibility with me… and I am saddened by you.
#47
and I you.
Grace and Peace.
I watched the Ted Haggard documentary on HBO last night (yes, I know, I’m a heathen for having HBO – it came with my cable internet, phone, and TV package), and I did genuinely feel bad the guy. There were a few things that really struck me.
First, even though churches speak about forgiveness and restoration, it doesn’t mean much in practice. I’m not saying that he should ever be a pastor again, but he was truly shunned. That’s not to say some of this was the fruit of his former life.
Second, and perhaps the saddest to me, was that here is a man who was a pastor of a mega-church who had no real way to make a living outside of the church. He now sells life insurance. He didn’t get any money from the HBO documentary, and I’m not sure if he’ll get money from the talk shows and whatnot, but it’s sad to see a 51-year old man with no real skill set. it reinforced my belief that pastors should be trained to do something else than just being a pastor.
Third, our theology really does matter. The biggest thing I noticed about Haggard was that there just seemed to be a shallowness about how he was approaching all of this. He seemed more concerned about the rightness and wrongness of his and other’s actions rather than exhibiting any real concern for people. It was obvious to me, perhaps because I grew up in a tradition similar to what he represented, that he was still operating from place that says we can earn or not earn God’s favor. So what happens is the focus becomes all about externals, and the heart becomes secondary. I really hope he is able to experience the unconditional love he needs at this point.
Phil – as you probably have guessed I did not see that program, but on LK Haggard was painfully aware of others and his actions and was extremely contrite. He seemedto have recieved forgiveness and his family is amazing.
As I watched I could not help but think of Ingrids’s “a gift that keeps on giving” quip. I honestly feel that sites like SoL are not even Christian. The devil knows theology better than most believers, and Jesus did not teach that our knowledge of doctrine would be our fruit and light. If I recall He mentioned something about love which in the broader context of His teaching included enemies.
I don’t like mega-churches, but I love Ted Haggard.
Rick,
I probably should clarify what I meant by saying out theology matters. I wasn’t saying that the right theology can save us or anything. But I do think that if our theology is works-based and teaches something wrong about the nature of God, it will lead us down some dangerous paths. I think the irony is that many time the people who are the most nitpicky about the little intricacies of theology, often end up missing the point the most.
Again, I really do hope Haggard ends up in a better place, and I hope he truly learns to experience the unconditional love and grace he needs. And I hope he continues to tick off the ADMs!
“And I hope he continues to tick off the ADMs!”
Remember, he’s a continual gift!
(Can you imagine a Christian referring to any person who has an addiction as a “gift that keeps on giving”? That attitude is anathema in God’s sight)
I watched LK exclusive with Haggard as well (though not the HBO documentary) and what came to my mind was the phrase: “righteous judgment.”
His wife (and son) BLEW ME AWAY with their ability to judge righteously in the midst of what is a terrible circumstance – and I respect them for that deeply.
This was probably the absolute best thing that has ever happened to this man though, as he said, it came at a terrible cost. But perhaps, for the first time in decades, he is able to walk with the Lord, instead of talking about Him (like Paul saying “lest when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.”)
You know, one of my favorite verses in scripture is the one in which Job, a righteous man who hated evil and did such good things, after going through unspeakable hell, said:
If this man is being sincerely drawn to the Lord, then it will be a wonder to behold when the job is completed.
We need to ask ourselves: will we be like Shemei casting stones at David as he tramps barefoot from Jerusalem? Or shall always be cognizant of our own ability to fall into the gravest of sins unless the Lord keeps us, ensuring we stay in a constant state of humility and consideration?
I agree with you, Paul. And Ted not only forgave the man who exposed him, he said he was grateful that God had used it to set him free. The world needs to see this kind of redemption.
Re:#45
Is PB claiming what I think he’s claiming? That he was talking about two separate people in comment 19?
Does that strike anyone else as utterly and completely implausible?
M.G.,
Yes, that is what Pastorboy says he meant. Let’s not speculate any further as it will just exacerbate the situation and surely incite those involved into another round of accusations and defenses.
Neil