This post amused me:
After hearing an interview with Bono recently in which 1/3rd of it was bleeped due to his fondness for the F-word, I’m sure that this album will make a deep and lasting Christ-honoring impression on the world.
As a U2 aficionado (ah, who am I kidding; I love U2!), I think I can confidently say that our dear friend at Slice is far too worried about U2. Actually, I’m rather surprised because recently, our dear sick friend (who needs our prayers for his back and money for his ‘ministry’ by the way), Pastor/Teacher/Prophet/Reformer Ken Silva posted this, which is a collection of music he himself has written.
I listened to the song ‘Eye of a Hurricane’ and I specifically heard Kenne drop the ‘d’ bomb several times in the song. Yet, no sarcastic calls from Slice about the ‘deep and lasting Christ-honoring impression’ that Kenne will leave on the world. Then Kenne defended his decidedly ’secular’ music this way in a terribly verbose and rambling missive of which I will quote but two sentences:
At the same time apparently there was also some confusion as to the recent posting of some of the many songs I’ve written. I was pretty clear that they were not worship songs, though I have written some of those as well, but were instead geared primarily to a secular audience.
Two thoughts.
1. To the author of Slice, can you please provide a link or some substantiation of your remark that a recent interview with Bono had to be 1/3 deleted because of the ‘f’ word? I’m interested in seeing if you counted correctly.
2. To the author of Slice, and in the interest of fairness, can you please rebuke Pastor/Teacher/Prophet/Songster/Poet/Reformer Kenne for his absolutely appalling use of the word ‘damn’ in the song ‘Eye of the Hurricane’? I am offended and I feel like Kenne might be leading some people down a path towards damnation with his ‘music geared towards a secular audience.’
One more thought.
1. I suspect that U2’s influence in and around the world and the church will, despite Bono’s ‘fondness for the ‘f’ word’, will be judged by the fruit it produces. At least Bono understands grace. And has a recording deal.
Do you people really have nothing better to do with your time? Why don’t you buy a U2 CD and listen to it? You will learn more about grace in one U2 song (say, Daddy’s Gonna Pay for Your Crashed Car or Grace) than you will in 10 pages of Slice or Apprising posts.
The utter hypocrisy of the Slice post (and a similar post at Apprising) sickens me.
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
122 Comments(+Add)
I love the new U2 album (well, I don’t necessarily love the first single, but everything else is great). I have a whole collection of U2 concert videos, and sometimes when I’m watching them, I’m almost overwhelmed. During “40″ on the Under a Blood Red Sky video, I don’t know how a Christian can’t worship along with that. I have to stop myself from lifting my hands while driving if I listen it in the car!
I have no doubt that Bono is a Christian after reading Bono in Conversation, which is a book of interviews with him. He pretty much lays out the Gospel in plain terms in it. Yeah, he drops the f-bomb a lot, but he’s Irish…
Who knew?!?!
The “f-bomb” is that hidden part of the gospel we never knew existed.
An excellent album, Jerry – I had it on pre-order from iTunes (though I did like Put on Your Boots, Phil)…
Isn’t it funny how some in another thread spoke about not seeing the superficial gospel of judging the outside of the cup with Ken and Ingrid and here is an example of them doing just that… So Bono says the “f” word… Luther said the “S” word as well as many other fine choice words…
It is both the culturalization of the Gospel making the standard “American” and teaching the Law by stating outward things are more important than inward things.
It seems they have spiritual x-ray specs that can see into Bono’s heart and judge him better than God….
There is a false gospel being perpetrated on people… It is the one that pushes cleaning the outside of the cup and meanwhile being as mean and hateful as hornets on the inside all the while justifying themselves in their self righteousness.
iggy
I was a fan way back first Album was Red Sky too, saw them on the Unforgettable Fire tour,Joshura Tree, and one other tour…
I was totally obessed by the band, but sheeshhhhhh the new cd is appalling..
And Bonos voice Lord he’s lost about two octaves :-p
He does a lot of great stuff,but musically hes just irrelevant now imo
I must be missing something
sorry end of rant..
As far as being a Christian (not that its my business) but i really think he is…I’ve followed a lot of what he said , and read the book Phil mentioned, it seems pretty obvious…
But i do think he’s played fast and loose at times,he seems happy to give an impression he believes certain things, for instances the co-exist thing might of meant one thing to him ,but he’s perfectly happy to let it be vague to others which is slightly worrying imo …
I have no confidence in U2’s nebulous and seemingly social profession of faith, however I cannot see any benefit by pouncing upon their new album as just another secular article that provides a another “I don’t do that” post.
I find the constant obsession with the secular issues as tedious and counterproductive in the extreme. At what point does the steady stream of captured secularisms become an an obvious vehicle with which to attempt to secretly elevate one’s own piety through the magnification of the sin of others?
I don’t hate it… I actually kind of dig the riff. It’s just the lyrics are kind of corny, IMO. It’s like “Vertigo” was on the last album.
Phill i agree with you on the riffs…It struck me the cd was really strong on guitar and bass,but lyrics and Bonos singin really let it down..
“Child drinking dirty water from the river bank
Soldier brings oranges he got out from a tank ”
yikesssss
What cracks me up about the huff and puff over at Slice and Apprising is the fact that the article clearly says “most thoroughly Christian.”
In other words, it’s relative to U2’s other work.
What’s so controversial about that? Everyone acknowledges that there are Christian themes to their music, and there has been an ebb and flow to the measure in which those themes are articulated.
It’s not as if the article pronounced the album “worship record of the year.”
It’s like these people live and breathe on strawman arguments. Perhaps this is extreme, but I truly believe that those two blogs (and honestly, more so Slice) have got to be two of the most intellectually dishonest blogs around.
And they claim to be Christian? Bizarre.
Sorry i went off Jerry’s point..
Kens post smelt a little of someone trying to regain some ground, by picking on another “artist”
It is odd. It’s not like you can buy U2 albums at Lifeway (snicker…)
Oh well, it doesn’t matter to me that much. I’ve been blessed by U2’s music throughout the years. Of course they’re not perfect. If I only listened to music made by perfect Christians, well, I guess I wouldn’t be listening to anything.
Well theres Pat Boone
Nope he did a heavy metal tribute album in the 90’s!
Actually it is hillarious! I thinkhe has a great sense of humor…
iggy
I believe in the Kingdom Come
Then all the colours will bleed into one
But yes I’m still running
You broke the bonds
You loosed the chains
You carried the cross
And my shame
And my shame
You know I believe it
But I still haven’t found
What I’m looking for
But I still haven’t found
What I’m looking for
The blogosphere would be edified with more of that kind of decent Christian talk.
Hahaha Iggy thats got to be up there with William Shatner’s album….I might seriously have to order that !!!
Isn’t there something wrong with the way we don’t seem concerned by Bono’s language?
Last week live on bbc radio1 Bono called Chris Matin a wanker (english cuss word) in front of the female presenter at 1030 am, and was force to say sorry,he giggled and said i forgot where i was….Its kind of odd that many non-christian people can be interviewed and not slip up..
20 years ago i remember my Dad (a rough unsaved guy) clipping my ear for swearing in front of a woman in a pub,now in England its not unusal for the woman to be swearing worse then a man….
Have we become so desensitized that a professing Christian can drops the F bomb, and we don’t even blink..In 20 years time what is going to be acceptable ???
Phil (#11):
Admittedly OT: No, but you could buy this album at Family Christian Stores back when it came out.
Since my last comment was OT, more on-topic would be to say “nice post” to Jerry, but caution him that — with one post — he’s now hit his “fish in a barrel” limit for March. So watch out for that game warden.
BTW, nobody’s holding their breath waiting for a dissenting opinion, are they?
You are right, as usual, Brendt. But seriously, I do think the author of Slice ought to rebuke Kenne for his use of the ‘d’ word in his ’secular’ music. It seems only fair.
Gotta run. There’s someone at the door wearing a badge and an official looking uniform…
Since no one mentioned it let me say that Ken does have musical talent and a good voice.
I don’t understand what you’re getting at here, really. Yeah, Bono has a dirty mouth, but in the grand scheme of things, that’s low on my list of wrongs. I actually heard that interview, and he wasn’t being mean-spirited about Martin. He was joking.
I don’t know. Language always changes and context is everything. Perhaps language in the form of keeping lists of forbidden words is something we like to obsess about because it allows to keep a neat and tidy list. It’s easy to not swear and to still have a heart full of death.
I guess m objections to swearing tend to be that is simply a less intelligent way of speaking most time. It makes people sound dumb.
Funny that one of the fruit of the Spirit is not keeping a list of wrongs… and yet the list at Apprising and SoL are quite long.
Now I guess that someone will say, “You guys do that…” or “This site does that…” yet I see there is a big difference between trying to correct someone in how they approach others when they see sin or supposed sin… versus complaining and listing someone’s faults as in the case of Bono’s usage of profanity… this site is not about keep a list of those who do wrong, rather to point out that how some are going about their “so-called” ministries are unloving and lack biblical gentleness.
Also, there is cultural differences as I was pointing out. German is a rather crude language… so what is a bad word in French or English is not a bad word in German… or if in Ireland it is not as bad to use the “F” word then we here in America should not be so harsh… What I mean is there is a double standard… Luther can swear but still be a “Great Reformer” and do no wrong in the eyes of Ken and Ingrid or Chris R… yet if they were to hold him to the stand they are hold Bono to, then we should not hold Luther in such high esteem.
It is this that keeping the list is wrong… Luther is good but swears… Bono is bad because he swears… and both need be understood in their cultural backgrounds and time in history…
#23
No iggy, that is a descriptor of love. And this is why no love is shown by many on this site; for they (the OP writers and the commenters) frequently hold what is done in the past against others.
Example: The Dead Catcher Diaz ranting about a supposed divorce of Ingrid. Example: The Online Discernment Mafia Site-too many examples to describe
iggy, you are a clanging cymbal. Thats why you belong on this site with the rest of your band.
I am a U2 afficianado; they are/were my favorite band.
That was until I saw Bono with a ‘Coexist’ bandana on. Then he became associated with the emergent church for me.
The swearing does not bother me; the f-bomb in Ireland means something different. It is as common as us saying huh? But don’t say bloody or shagging over there, that would be crude.
I am way more concerned with his liberal Christian theology, his songs, while powerful, do not portray a Christian, rather, an agnostic who may have a form of belief but has not been fully converted IMHO.
What hypocrisy. Curious: How much mileage will this blog get out of Miley Cyrus being referenced as a “painted girl of Sodom” this March alone?
At least have a sense of integrity to not say this or at least admit that many times we take on the spirit of those we castigate.
You might be more clever, but in many ways the same spirit prevails. Case in point:
Paul,
Your pointed comment about the overuse of that Miley quote is actually legitimate. I think we all agree that a line was crossed by that statement, but that was a long, long time ago. Let’s let that one go away, IMO.
However, I must disagree with you over your interpretation of the call for prayer for Ken. I do believe that the request was sincere, as was the one from a commenter yesterday (who I cannot remember…nc maybe?).
The titles behind the name are clearly in jest and fun, not in a purposefully degrading tone.
One thing that I think is consistent on this site is the disagreement with the actions of our brothers and sisters, but a genuine care for their well-being.
Ken needs our prayers.
Being in pain, especially back pain, is horrible, as is being in financial straits.
Let’s join our hearts in prayer for our brother, Ken Silva.
Its a Biblical methodology to measure someone by the same standards which they measure. Which is what is generally done here.
I bring up Ingrid’s divorce. Why? Because she can’t let Ted Haggard’s sins go, even when he has repented, even when he has been forgiven by his wife (a person he sinned against far more greatly against than Ingrid).
In fact, that’s the standard operating procedure of all the ADMs. No matter what the situation they bring up the (usually only perceived) sins of groups, and individuals over and over and over again. It doesn’t matter if there was repentance or forgiveness, it doesn’t matter if the situation is different than their perception of it (see Rick Warren and the Mormons which is still used by ADMs even though it was the product of sloppy reporting on the part of a secular outlet).
I’m also a little curious how all you “if you aren’t exactly like us you don’t like the Bible” folks are reacting to Ingrid’s current crusade about immature Christians?
She reads a book which isn’t even loosely based on scripture, and diagnoses this as the root cause of the death of the evangelical church.
Sola scriptura? Not even close.
So U2 is the oracle of the gospel of God’s grace?
Their music is boring repetitive and full of pious blether.
Bono does not preach the gospel that Paul was not ashamed of.
I have no doubt now that all contributors/commenters here are full blown pelagian (that’s right, not even “semi” ) to the core.
You will never find what you’re looking for, as no one (except the regenerate) seeks Yahweh. He reveals Himself to whom He will.
Paul C…
I don’t even remember using the “little girls of Sodom” so far this March but also… you just made my point about keeping you list of wrongs about me!
I mean did you actually read what I wrote in that comment? You did exactly what I said someone would do! Talk about hillarious!
igs
Paul C,
Again, though I don’t see Ingrid’s divorce an issue, it is that she lives in a glass house and cast stones without a care judging others on petty and issues that are not even biblical at times… I think most here are not keeping lists but hope that their rebuke to the unkindness of remarks like “little girls of Sodom” aimed at 14 year old girls is not appropiate behavior for a Christian…
So when someone may use a Van Halen song for an opening to their sermon it seems so petty as the sermon was about Jumping into doing the works of God… while aiming derogatory remarks to 14 y/o girls seems rather mean spirited and hateful to those Jesus died for.
It is the hope that they will see the error of not doing as the bible teaches in being gentle in their rebukes that is the difference…
Now do I or everyone here do this perfectly… no… but I find it interesting that instead of looking at what we may raise as points, you want to just point out my faults… the big difference between myself and Ken or Ingrid or others… is I own my faults…. I apologize when I am wrong and when corrected I (for the most part) listen and consider what the other is saying.
So for you to drag out your list of my wrongs proved my point and shows you missed the point! And again… that is hillarious… Feel free to drag out all my faults… here I will add a few more..
I am fat.
I do not exercise as I should.
I smoke cigars… and way to many.
I sometimes cuss.
I sometimes forget to practice what I preach.
I sometime may not be kind.
I sometimes speak too harshly to others.
I sometimes do not treat my wife lovingly as I should.
I sometimes waste too much time on the Internet.
I sometimes look at porn (though I wish I wouldn’t.
I sometimes am not open to rebuke as much as I should be.
I sometimes do not drive the speed limit.
I sometime make inappropriate jokes.
I sometimes do not want to love others.
I sometimes do not read my bible every day.
I sometimes forget to pray some days.
I am sure there is more… but I hope these aid you in your list about me.
I also hope you pray for me in all my faults as I pray for those I may be rightly or wrongly critical about.
Be blessed,
iggy
Not enough. That quote is one of many that provides a clear looking glass into how Ingrid sees the lost world. And not only does she refuse to repent of such verbal destruction, she revels in it. I will continue to use it whenever I deem it necessary to remind people of the senseless verbal brutality that continues to foisted upon sinners for whom Christ died.
Labeling teenage fans of Miley Cyrus as “painted girls of Sodom” is reprensible.
If you’re keeping score that is #1 in March for me – watch for its siblings.
Actually an appropriately timed and aptly used “f-bomb” can make a brilliant point…and lend profound force of sentiment to that point.
Sometimes…
just say’n.
Rick – see, that’s what I mean. At least approach the issue with a level of integrity (as opposed to Iggy’s comment and Bo’s ridiculous reasoning: “Well, she does it, so why can’t I?”)
I think my point is well proven though…
The fact is I don’t agree with denigrating sinners who have rejected or have yet to receive Christ. SoL’s and CRN.com’s website do serve a purpose in highlighting the downward trend of the church in my opinion, though not always with the right spirit (let him who is without sin throw the first stone).
The commenters here have developed some sort of warped tunnel vision as well, expending disproportionate amounts of energy on trying to filter this spiritual battle through the likes of SoL and CRN (for example). I thought Chris’ last post on Philadelphia did just that (though I still enjoyed the series).
Rick,
To me it is liken to the violence in Dufar and saying it is unkind to speak agaisnt genocide… To speak against someone who is purposely harming others and reveling in it is not keeping a list of wrongs as Paul C seems to be saying…
If Ingrid stated that it was inappropriate for Hannah Montana to do as she did that would have been fine, but to use such verbiage agaisnt a 14 y/o is senseless and shows contempt for the kindness of God…
Instead of correction Ingrid offered mocking and verbiage aimed at shaming the young girl… there was not one sign of reconciliation or hope that she would grow from her mistake… only a choice opportunity to attack a celebrity and mock her in her professed faith.
Another case in point it seems that even when someone shows that their doctrine is orthodox such as in the case between Ken Silva and Dan Kimball… Dan could do nothing to be reconciled according to Ken… Dan was so judged and condemned and that was that… no proof would suffice… once damned there is no reconciliation from Ken or Ingrid.
iggy
whoops – looks like I’m in moderation…
Was it something I said?
Phil /I actually heard that interview, and he wasn’t being mean-spirited about Martin. He was joking/
I know he was joking,,but maybe old fashion of me (ironic i know) to expect a Christian to mind is mouth live on the radio at 10.30 am??
No wait my real point is, its him thinking oh man this is what i got to do so they dont think i’m that christian dude from the 80s!!! I think hes a fake
*** fake in the sense of the rock and roller who turnt up around “fly” swearing, smoking (why is voice as gone) ,dressed in his horns,supermodels and all the rest of the stuff that larry cringed at..
I truely think he as isues about how hes preceived as a Christian ,and fights it every inch of the way,which is surely dishonest???
I just think he’s a rockstar with an ego that he struggles to keep in check. I kind of like the fact that U2 has gotten away from some its earnestness. Rock and roll should be fun, too.
I don’t idolize Bono (I save that for the Edge…
), but I do respect him, at least somewhat. He takes a lot of crap from people, and I think he could be a lot worse. Hey, the simple fact that he’s stayed married to the same woman for over 20 years is quite remarkable given his profession. I simply think that whenever we speak of famous people there’s always a bit of jealously that comes into play.
Bo Diaz wrote:-
I bring up Ingrid’s divorce. Why? Because she can’t let Ted Haggard’s sins go, even when he has repented, even when he has been forgiven by his wife (a person he sinned against far more greatly against than Ingrid).
Shame on you.
What a vindictive thing to do and the fact that you are so brazen and blatant about it, speaks volumes.
What on earth does raising that issue achieve? Does it make you feel better about yourself?
Dmac,
So you defend Ingrid in her tirades against a repentant man who is forgiven by his wife… and defend that though she also has a past that is somewhat sad she has a free ticket to condemn a repentant sinner?
That makes no sense at all.
I agree though that Ingrid’s divorce is under the Blood of Jesus… but why is she not giving the same respect for the Blood of Jesus to Ted Hagaard?
It is a double standard… and I truly wonder how you can defend her in that..
iggy
How could i be jealous of Bono sheesh whats he got i havent uh hmmm…
Seriously i just find all this a bit middle class kid tryin to be street sorry..
Phil i heard a sermon the other day,the preacher was saying night time iflms of the 70s, are now day time movies…Thats what i meant by my orginal post ,doesn’t that worry you ,how things have become so desensitized
Now, let’s fix it.
andy,
the whole ‘desensitized’ argument is really quite tired and boring. who isn’t desensitized? have you read history? do you think that just because the films of the 70’s kept the ‘f’ word in check, due to strict censorship, that means that people in the 70’s never said the ‘f’ word? do you think it was only our generation that discovered the ‘f’ word to be such a strong invective and vulgar term? of course we are desensitized, but i hardly think that is because of Bono and his ‘fondness’ for it.
you know what desensitized us? WW I. WW II. Vietnam. Korea. Roman Gladiators. Pol Pot. Idi Amin. Genghis Khan. Caesar. In general, sin. We’ve been desensitizing ourselves since the first bite.
yours,
jerry
Now this is funny… a post I did not write, about a band I have no recording of, proves I am Pelagian… priceless!
I agree, the last thing we want is for people to get along peacefully… the more bloodshed in the name of religion the better!
Re #24 – at one time John you were engaging, provocative, and worth the effort – recently you have become just plain predictable and shallow.
Vida blue/pastorboy/pastorman or whatever name you will call yourself next…
About the fruit of the Spirit being that one does not keep lists of wrong and is “love” instead…
I guess somehow you have removed “love” from the fruit of the Spirit…
\
And in expressing the fruit of the Spirit of Love, one does not keep a list of wrongs…
So please try to keep in mind a fuller view and understanding of what the bible teaches John/Vida Blue/pastorboy/pastorman/
Sheesh once again I have to teach you the basics… as you state unbilbical things like the actions of love not being of the fruit of the Spirit!
iggy
How do you feel about Chris Pajak calling you a Pelagian heretic PastorblueJjohnboyvida for commenting here….?
Gotta love the word “all”!
iggy
DMac,
Apply the same measurement to Ingrid that you applied to me. While I ask her supporters for an answer as to why they don’t call her to account for her sins while crucifying a repenting man for his in the comments of this blog, she has built an entire Satanic ministry on doing exactly that.
I realize you’re either not going to read this, or you’re not going to respond because that’s what ADM supporters do, but there it is. Measure out Ingrid the same way you’ve measured out me. Or if you’re not up for that something that a child could do: measure out Ingrid in the same way she’s measured out others.
And the hits, er, hypocrites keep coming……
How many times have we heard Ingrid criticize today’s Christian artists with whom she disagrees with being in it “for the money”? But then what was it Kenne wrote on his blog when he posted his music……
So are we to assume Kenne is beginning “to consider other options” to pay the bills? Or is it to spread his message of “love and worship” with the a broader audience out of the goodness of his heart?
Hmmmm. “I’m not buying it”.
While I am not endorsing either the ministries of Schlueter or Silva, y’all seem to spend an inordinate amount of time tearing into them and then saying “Well, they do that to X and Y, so why can’t we?”. Permit me to say, it darn well sounds like kids in the playground, rather than mature Christians.
Granted – the guys at CRN, Slice and Apprising need to season their words with a little grace (little being a massive understatement). Yes, with the measure you mete out, it will be meted back to you…but aren’t we called to live the way of Jesus, who said “Love your enemies and pray for those who use you…”
There’s a world dying without Jesus – and we seem contented to tear into meaningless folks like Silva and Schlueter. We need to get priorities straight – evangelism and edification first, anything else is a bonus…
Bo Diaz Says:
DMac,
Apply the same measurement to Ingrid that you applied to me. While I ask her supporters for an answer as to why they don’t call her to account for her sins while crucifying a repenting man for his in the comments of this blog, she has built an entire Satanic ministry on doing exactly that.
DMac: “satanic ministry” Nuff said….
I realize you’re either not going to read this, or you’re not going to respond because that’s what ADM supporters do, but there it is. Measure out Ingrid the same way you’ve measured out me. Or if you’re not up for that something that a child could do: measure out Ingrid in the same way she’s measured out others.
DMac: Bo Diaz, I would simply refer you to the comment posted by K.
I’m not ADM supporter, but I’m really not sure why you continue to raise personal issues, that frankly have remotely nothing to do with you. Especially in light of the fact that they are regarding someone’s private life. If you are so offended by others doing it, why do it yourself?
I fail to see how anyone (that applies to us all) can reconcile being a believer, whilst at the same time articulating views that are both vindictive and deeply personal. But hey, that’s just me…..
Jerry said,
It is curious that those that protest about being desensitized about sin never address the murders of John Calvin. Now THAT’S desensitization!
Hmmmm i’m not a calvinist, i’m barely anything these days…
The subject of Kens post and this one was about a Artist/Art, of course were desensitised by many things , but i don’t see that as a reason to accept it as inevitable when the boundries are pushed in Art…
That is not what coexist is all about….
It is the teaching that all roads lead to heaven…and that all the gods are the same gods….so let us coexist. It is universalism, an idea most emergents and many Episcopalians are quite comfortable with…
Hence U2 Music in the sanctuary.
Again, from a purely artistic point of view, I appreciate U2’s music; sort of like the songs of Kerry Livgren and Kansas pre-conversion. Not Christian, yet, but being drawn by God.
I love the lyrics by the prophet Ian Anderson:
That is my mantra!
I pray Bono finds what he’s looking for.
This is symptomatic of the emergent/POMO/evangelical Christian movement of today. They give lipservice to the salvation that is wrought by Christ, they believe He has come into the world, ushering in the kingdom, preparing the way for the last day- but yet they are still running. Still running away from the call to pick up the cross and follow Jesus. Still running from the doctrines of grace that you simply need to repent and believe-with your mind, your emotions, and your will- in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Their belief is like the belief we find in John Chapter 6- a belief that wants their bellies full. A belief in the Prophet that they had formed in their mind through the teaching of the Pharisees- the Prophet who would be king who would fill their bellies and take away the yoke of Roman rule. They did not believe in the true Messiah, the one who came into the world to be crushed for the sins of the World. They would not eat of his flesh and drink of his blood by believing in the one God had sent. They are believing in a false Jesus, like the one presented in the Shack, not the one we find in Revelation 19:11 ff
If you want a wimpy Jesus who will cure all the worlds physical ills while not addressing the real problem, which is sin that offends a Holy God, then you will not find what you are looking for. You will not find the God of the Bible submitting to human morality. The horrible things we see in the world today that Bono is concerned about (which is why he hasn’t found what he’s looking for) include AIDS, hunger, bad government, political prisoners, etc. These are all the result of sin, and until man’s heart is changed by God, indeed, until Christ returns in His glory, we will not see an end to that..
And then it will be too late. You won’t have what you were looking for. You will just have Hell.
Wow…just wow.
#61–You have misinterpreted the lyrics. His point is that he hasn’t found, here on earth, what Christ promised. He is not saying it doesn’t exist or that he is lost in a murky swamp of despair. And since he wrote those lyrics back in the 80’s, I hardly think they reflect the emergent or pomo crowd.
Even the apostle Paul wrote, “I want to know Christ–yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings becoming like him in his death, and so somehow attaining to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.”
There you go. Paul, like Jesus before him, was emergent. Not even Paul had found yet what he was looking for.
As for this:
I think Nathanael said best: Wow. Just wow. Strangely enough, these are the very ones your Lord Jesus Christ was concerned about while he walked on earth. Wow. I cannot believe you even wrote that.
jerry
OK John, up your meds.
#63
I heartily disagree.
We can observe Bono’s many heartfelt convictions, which are great moral causes (from a human standpoint): AIDs in Africa, Amnesty International, COEXIST, world hunger…etc. etc. etc.
He has not found what he is looking for from Human government, which is why he travels the world meeting with princes and presidents to see if he can accomplish it. The world is not what Bono thinks it should be, thats why HE has not found what HE is looking for.
He has made a god in his own mind; Read his writings, listen to his interviews. He wants a God of the Shack, one that submits to man and man’s sensibilities. He (Bono) is a great humanitarian, a great moralist. He is a believer in Christ; but I do not believe He is unto salvation, for if he was, he will have found what he is looking for, despite all the problems in the world.
I hope He is, but if his writings and musings are any indication, he still has not found Him.
Only in PB’s world is it the case that lyrics written in 1986 reflect the “emergent/POMO crowd.”
Only in PB’s world is is the case that a song about a man’s desire “only to be with You” is somehow about curing worldly ills.
PB: Please stop lying. Thanks.
“The world is not what Bono thinks it should be, that’s why HE has not found what HE is looking for.”
So, PB, you think the world *is* what it should be?
Here I think I fixed it.
#65–I’m not going to belabor this pointless conversation. You can believe how you want, however wrong that is, and live in your myopic world where God’s grace is only effective for you and where God’s Spirit is not free to go this way and that.
Sometimes I think you disagree just to be disagreeable.
#67
The world is as it is, because despite what Tony Jones, Tony Compolo, Doug Pagitt, Chad, and Brian McLaren think
….”through Adam sin entered into the world and DEATH through sin…” and Christ entered into this world , and “he who knew no sin was made sin for us, so that we might have the righteousness of God in Him”…
The world is dying and decaying. This began with Adam, and continues until today. It will continue until the new heaven and the new earth come. And it does not matter how much moralizing we do, we cannot change the nature of man.
No, the world is not as it should be, it is not as it was created. But God will set things right. Until then, we must preach the Gospel so man’s heart and very nature is changed. This is when the worlds ills can be addressed (not fixed).
As Bono says in his song grace which is a misunderstanding of grace:
grace finds goodness in everything
grace finds beauty in ugly things
No….
grace is is given despite our ugly nature, despite our nature that has no good in it. Grace gives righteousness where there is none; and gives it despite the prior condition.. if we will repent of our lack of goodness, our lack of beauty.
Vida Boy Blue
Is there ANY objective proof of this? I have done a pretty exhaustive search on the subject and can find no such thing. Rather, the artist who designed it did it from the point of desiring that the three major Abrahamic religions could “get along” despite their differences.
As for U2’s message, there has been no public statement by Bono that I can find anywhere other than what is done in their concerts. Let me relate to you what that is from an article I found on the web:
“……..and with the show’s mood growing increasingly intense, a white headband appears on Bono’s forehead for the opening chords of “Love and Peace or Else.” The headband bears the handwritten message “COEXIST” with the Muslim crescent symbol representing the “C;” the Jewish Star of David, the “X;” and the Christian cross, the “T.” As the next few songs progress, Bono kneels down, wrists crossed above his head, conjuring images of a hostage, now blindfolded with the CoeXisT band covering his eyes. In the European shows, the CoeXisT sign dominates the giant screen behind the band. And in the midst of “Sunday Bloody Sunday” (which, according to Bono, doesn’t just belong to Ireland anymore) Bono points to each religious icon and declares:
“Jesus, Jew, Muhammad, it’s true…All sons of Abraham. Father Abraham, speak to your sons. Tell them, No more!”
Now I did not highlight the name of the song just because it’s a song but to show the context of the use of the COEXIST bandana was “Love and Peace, Or Else”, not “All Roads Lead to Heaven”.
Did you know there is not even a movement or an organization called “COEXIST”? Rather it was simply a design made by a guy and then used by some guys in Indiana for a clothing line. That’s it. However, if you google “Bono & COEXIST” there is a plethora of ADM types who say the same thing you do……all with absolutely no basis. If you can squeeze it in to make it fit your point go ahead and use, don’t worry if it is true or not. That or maybe you just heard it from another ADM and weren’t a “good Berean” and check it out for yourself. Either way ain’t so pretty.
This is pretty much a lie. If you read the book, Bono: In Conversation with Michka Assayas, you get a very different look at what Bono actually believes. Look at this excerpt.
Here’s a pretty clear explanation:
Bono: But I love the idea of the Sacrificial Lamb. I love the idea that God says: Look, you cretins, there are certain results to the way we are, to selfishness, and there’s a mortality as part of your very sinful nature, and, let’s face it, you’re not living a very good life, are you? There are consequences to actions. The point of the death of Christ is that Christ took on the sins of the world, so that what we put out did not come back to us, and that our sinful nature does not reap the obvious death. That’s the point. It should keep us humbled… . It’s not our own good works that get us through the gates of heaven.
ADMs – not very Christian, not much research, but all kinds of network.
Pastor Boy has made some pretty serious public charges about a man’s actions with a basis that he has yet to show and then extrapolates them to judge the lack of a professed believers salvation. I for one would like to see some definitive support for those claims or a public apology to the contrary.
I have my problems with Bono’s style of Christianity, however to be fair here are some interesting excerpts from one of his interviews:
Interesting wouldn’t you say?
Rick/Phil i think thats the frustration i have with Bono, i totally believes hes a Christian,but then he says some perplexing stuff…
Q “Do you still believe that Jesus is the way? Doesn’t that biblical injunction deny that followers of other religions can enter paradise?
Bono: I don’t accept that. I don’t accept that fundamentalist concept. I believe, what is it? “The way is as narrow as the eye of the needle,” and all that. But I think that’s just to keep the fundamentalists out…. (laughs) I never really accepted the whole “born again” tag. It’s a great term, had it not been so abused. I accepted it on one level, in that I loved the idea of being reborn…. I think people should be reborn every day, man! You know, every day again and again and again! At 20 years old, this idea of “surrender every day,” this idea of “dying to oneself”
Well it was Jesus who actually said that we should ‘take up our cross daily and follow him.’ And it was Paul who said that we should ‘daily offer ourselves up as living sacrifices.’
Phil & John B,
Thanks for the actual research. Those are some powerful statements.
jerry
PS–Bono sounds like he has spent some time reading NT Wright. Snap! There goes his credibility again.
So…
it’s wrong to ask adherents of different religions to stop demonizing each other/killing each other?
That’s how I always understood the “coexist” thing.
It doesn’t take much effort to see that religious rhetoric contributes to and inspires profound amounts of hell and pain in this world.
Seriously, it’s wrong to call people to stop doing that?
Or is the answer to simply have everyone become Christians?
Oh yeah, European history already shows us how that doesn’t work.
Hell, American history shows how that doesn’t work.
#70:
So, because of the inability of humans to repair their capacity for evil, it’s somehow suspect to devote your life to trying to make the world a little bit better?
God’s redeeming our bodies, not just our souls.
What’s wrong with Christians reflecting that and communicating that in their deeds?
It is not about all three abrahamic religions coexisting….after all…they cannot.
If you look at it, you have the islamic, buddhist, hindu, christian, hebrew, and a symbol for science. It is a call for syncretism, that we all should just get along, and certainly, that one is not superior to the other.
How can “There is no God but Allah, and Mohammad is His prophet” coexist with “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man gets to the Father but by me”
I will give you a clue…. it cannot.
And BTW, I did not say definitively Bono was not a Christian. I said it appears he has a form of belief in Christ, certainly he has an in depth knowledge of Christ. But the question is….has he found the answer in Christ? Has he found what he was looking for?
I pray that he has/does.
Little OT nice interview with Eugene Peterson about Bono here >
” When the Rolling Stone interview came out (People of the Year: Bono, November 2001), one of my former students sent it to me. My friend told me I was in there someplace, so I read it through and I was hoping that when he got to me, he wouldn’t use the f-word on The Message.[Laughs.] My daughter was reading it too, and she said, “I thought they were Christians?” and I said, “Well, I think that’s the way Irish Christians talk.”
http://www.atu2.com/news/article.src?ID=4232
“I thought they were Christians”…..
ick.
Eugene’s reply was sweet though NC , and Eugene comes off as a veryyy cool guy in the interview …
Q “Do you still believe that Jesus is the way? Doesn’t that biblical injunction deny that followers of other religions can enter paradise?
Bono: I don’t accept that. I don’t accept that fundamentalist concept.
…………………….
It seems many have railed against PB for accusing Bono of universalism, in light of Bonos reply,it would seem PB as a point…
Wow if you guys are mad about what Ken and Ingrid said how torn up are you going to be over the leveling of your contextualized nonsense by Phil Johnson in his General Session message at the Shepherd’s Conference.
Jesus said: “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord! will enter into heaven but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.” Why is it that few are fearful when they read such a passage and live like a slave to unrighteousness? Check out 2 Cor. 13:5 guys and gals the eternal life you preserve might be your own.
Bill,
Please do not misquote Jesus. What he said was:
The kingdom is already at hand – it is not just some futuristic Shangri-La after we die. I think I’ll take the full gospel rather than the fire-insurance policy you seem to be selling…
It’s not as if fundamentalism and universalism are the only possible choices a person has. It seems PB and other like him claim that anyone who doesn’t see things exactly like them is a universalist. It’s get old having to refute the same thing again and again.
Bono isn’t a theologian. He’s not a teacher. He’s a singer in a rock band.
The irony to me is that early on in their careers, fundies pretty much gave the band an ultimatum that they had choose between their narrow view of Christianity or playing music. It seems that fundamentalists are still trying to have their way with them. Some Christians seem to have little tolerance for that which they can’t control.
Bill,
Just a few questions.
1. Who is talking about contextualization? My post has to do with Ingrid’s double-standard: Kenne swears in his music and Ingrid said nothing about it.
2. Who is Phil Johnson? Why do ‘we’ care? And what does he have to do with U2, Bono, or Kenne Silva’s music?
3. What is The Shepherd’s Conference? Who cares?
4. 2 Corinthians 13:5. Amen. Could you do me a favor and email it over to Ingrid and Kenne and Ratliff and…oh, you get the point.
5. What does your comment have to do with U2, Bono, Kenne Silva’s music?
Thanks. I appreciate your time.
jerry
PB,
You said: “He is a believer in Christ; but I do not believe He is unto salvation, for if he was, he will have found what he is looking for, despite all the problems in the world. ”
Please, please, please try to recognize that it is not your place to publicly question Bono’s salvific status. The words “but I do not believe His is [a believer] unto salvation” are quite inappropriate. It is entirely appropriate to examine and critique what a public figure states publicly about his/her beliefs and how those statements comport with other statements, or with their actions, but we ultimately cannot judge the heart. That is so counter productive to real, edifying examination of a topic. Can’t you see that you undermine every potentially valid point you make when you make pronouncements about your beliefs concerning a persons salvation or lack thereof? And that damage cannot be undone by simply proclaiming that you hope this person will be saved or that you will pray for it.
Please take this admonition to heart and think long and hard before making any more proclamations about who you believe is saved and who isn’t. Let’s leave those proclamations to our only Judge, the only one who knows the hearts of men.
Andy,
I concur with you that some of Bono’s statements have been very troubling and contradictory, and I share your resulting frustration.
Not to parse; but they can coexist and they do coexist. Now if you were to say that all religions equally lead to God that is purely unbiblical but to say that all religions should coexist peacefully is, IMO, central to the advance of the gospel.
Wow Chris – way to infer something was clearly not intended by what I said. Bono says he is a Christian and those U2 fanatics (see fans) who claim to be Christians also are all too swift to accept his profession. The point of what I said Chris is that a profession isn’t really too convincing to the Lord.
And having posted in here before I am quite confident that even had I directly cut and pasted that passage from Scripture someone would have found a problem with it as you have been swift to do. What a prideful jab that was Chris.
Amazing that you completely ignored the question that followed the text Chris, which was: Why is it that few are fearful when they read such a passage and live like a slave to unrighteousness?
That passage terrified me when I read it after I understood the sinfulness of my sin and here you all are applauding and reveling in the madness of Bono? Madness in that he has himself convinced along with many others he is a child of God. You would all, Bono included, be well served to learn a bit about regeneration, Take a look at the back half of Ez. 36.
Who is selling a “fire insurance” type of salvation? That is idiotic Chris and the height of dishonesty to make that charge. Is that what you call anyone who warns of hellfire and brimstone? If so you must be anxiously awaiting the opportunity to make that charge against Jesus Christ Himself since He taught us more than any about Hell.
Sorry – hot-button topic. Too often that verse is (mis)used out of context. I happen to believe that Bono’s mistaken on a number of fronts, but I also think he’s got the core of the gospel, as it pertains to him, correct. He’s also, as I see (and I’m not following too closely most of the time), trying to use what earthly wealth and power he receives to assist the poor – in the name of the Lord.
I would say that many who the Armchair Discernment Ministries decry for their lack of fear of God completely miss the point:
Now, there are many who do lack the proper fear, as well, and who live unrighteously – but often ‘unrighteousness’ is in the eye of the beholder, and measured by a ruler demarked by personal preferences and convictions.
While you’re reading the lamb’s book of life where Bono’s name should be (but apparently is not), can you give me the list of other names there, as well? I seemed to have misplaced my copy.
I’m still working on Gen 1 through Rev 22, myself, though I am worried enough about what I need that I don’t try to prescribe verses to the hearts of those I don’t know…
Your entire comment was related to the eternal state – that’s basically the gospel as fire insurance.
Since hellfire and brimstone weren’t the core of the gospel, if that’s what the focus is primarily on, then yes. The gospel is primarily about how to live, not how to avoid hell.
Since the kingdom of God/heaven is mentioned 10 times for every single mention of hell, I’ll take what Jesus emphasized in the proportion he emphasized it…
Bill,
his point was that you didn’t quote what Jesus actually said. You would have been better served if you had cut and pasted. Jesus didn’t say anything about ‘heaven’ in the passage you misquoted. Never mind, I all of a sudden had my eyes open. I see where you are coming from.
jerry
Funny to judge Bono by the song “Still haven’t found…” as it is a song…
From what perspective did he write it?
How does it change from one person’s view to anothers as they listen to it?
Meaning could Bono have been writing from a non christian view? Or have we at times all felt lost in the world as it is and wonder if this “faith” thing is truly real? If not I wonder if you are truly growing!
When I listen to some songs I think they are about my wife… yet I truly doubt the author of that song knows my wife at all… yet the song is all about her to me.
When some look at the statue of David, some see art, some see a naked man that needs to have his privates covered… again, art, music reveals more about one’s self than it does of the artist.
Now can one still be looking for something and be in Christ? I hope so. I am still looking at having a great marriage… still looking in hope despite this sick world for my kids… I still look for the Kingdom to come in its fullness… cuz it still hasn’t happened yet… so as I look forward to the Kingdom in its fullness where there is no death, sickness, war, and on and on by PB’s standard, I am not saved… cuz “I still haven’t found what I’m looking for”
I found Jesus but still look for all He promised to come and unless PB thinks it already has all come, then he may not be saved by his own standard.
iggy
I believe this quote was back in 1989… yet here is another post that shows what Bono believes that is more recent.
It seems that thanks to America… Bono lost his faith in the idea of being “born again” yet it seems that he still believes in Jesus though he expresses it in unconventional ways.
iggy
excellent link, Igs
Iggy,
Bono wrote that when he was a young preacher. What, his second year in the pulpit when he was like 21. His second year in the pulpit and you are going to make an audacious comment like that?*
jerry
*
Another troubling exchange with Bono from the link provided by Iggy:
Q: “What do you think of Prince’s brand of salacious Christianity, which says that brilliant sex lights the way to paradise?”
A: “I just believe that Prince believes the same thing I do: that God is sex as well as love.”
Q: “So you feel, when you listen to a Prince album, that you guys are singing the same gospel?”
A: “I feel very close to Prince, closer than you might think.”
Why would a Christian speak that way? (not insinuating or stating that Bono is not a Christian) I would hope that the Bono apologists here would at least recognize that he has said some very troubling things in public interviews. I guess I missed the Bible verse that says that God is sex.
In the interest of full disclosure, I too am fond of U2 music and listen to it fairly regularly. I don’t intend to question Bono’s Christianity, but sure wish he was less cryptic and contradictory as I believe it would further his witness for Christ.
I can totally agree with that. I’m not really into being so enigmatic myself. I’m more comfortable with these straight and forward. However, what I cannot abide is someone making things up that are patently false (reason for COEXIST) and then judging someone’s salvation for it. That is just so wrong.
Eric,
Have you ever noticed the book called Song of Songs in the bible… here sex is used as a way of conveying the love of God…
Do you have issue with the bible doing that?
Also, true and pure sexuality has all to do with love… with out love sex is impure and just grinding organs together for self pleasure…. or as one person I used to listen to said, “Unmarried sex is just using another person to masturbate with.”
iggy
I just want to publicly admit that I’ve said some very troubling things in life as well. Sorry, but I don’t understand the witch hunt mentality of digging out all these “troubling” quotes. Sure, Bono has said stupid things. Everyone has. We have to extend each other grace to live.
I prefer to let Bono’s music speak for Bono. I couldn’t tell you a single thing he has said in a quote or in an article or anything. But I can tell you a whole bunch of lyrics that he has written, recorded, sung, and sold.
The poet is remembered for his poetry, not for his prose. The singer is remembered for his singing, not for his speaking.
Wait a minute…Phil…you mean you are not perfect? OMG! Do you have any idea what this does to our relationship?
A little known fact:
The song “I still haven’t found what I’m looking for” was about looking for misplaced car keys.
Please, please, please……
Can we start a continuous thread as a “sticky” that just exposes error in each days posts by Ingrid. So much fodder and so much fun…..if it weren’t so sad……
Today…..
She speaks of the “homo-pervert’s” in the UK who are teaching the acceptance of homosexuality to elementary aged school kids. Now I’m certain no one here would agree with the teaching (but might disagree with the nasty perjoratives she bandies about).
But the real yellow journalism is when she goes on to write of parents who “are facing prosecution for removing their children from a homo-pervert version of a school play” and writes that “You MUST allow nazi-style homosexual indoctrination of your little ones or face legal consequences.”
Now…let’s look at the truth from the article she herself links to. It has nothing to do with pulling the kids out of school for this particular event. Rather the article says:
The “punishment” will only be for those kids who miss more than 19 days of school and this absence or absences, some parents chose to take the kids out for the entire week. put them over the 19 days. Nineteen days is pretty generous and Ingrid is pretty generous with the untruths.
NEXT:
Ingrid links to a negative article of a national pastor’s conference in San Diego at which Brian McLaren and Rob Bell spoke. She claims:
But what she doesn’t say is the article had zero to do with RW, nothing to do with anything that Warren espouses, nothing to do with PEACE, doesn’t mention Warren, or that long ago Warren publicly disagreed on the direction that Brian McLaren has gone over the last several years. Rather, this was just another opportunity to bash RW with zero substance. That anyone could defend her is ludicrous.
But this last claim is not ludicrous, just amusing in it’s ridiculousness:
Oh brother.
After I saw “homo-fascists,” that’s when I finally decided that SoL is not safe for work.
I no longer feel comfortable going to that site in any situation where I’m being monitored. Her site is simply that inappropriate.
Sorry, I didn’t close the blockquote… feel free to delete the original.
What gospel is that? I’m pretty sure you could find that “gospel” in Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Sikhism, et al.
Straw man?
No one said anything about the gospel of “avoiding hell”.
This is the problem with many Pomo and post-evangelical and emergent subscribers – they are so scarred from the “turn or burn” crowd that they swing their pendulum the opposite way.
Now hell is not a real place but an adjective for life if we create it that way? Do you have Velvet Elvis memorized?
How about this gospel:
Jesus Christ died to save sinners. If we repent and believe in him, we will be saved. By the life of Jesus Christ, the law was fulfilled and I inherit righteousness undeserving. By the death of Jesus Christ, my sins were taken away. By the resurrection of Jesus Christ, I have eternal life.
Too simple? Not postmodern enough?
That is how Ingrid views the lost world because she has the luxury of being already saved. Instead of being overwhelmed with compassion for the lost, and convicted about doing more to reach them, she, as is her custom, laments about the declining culture.
And with her invectives and demeaning labels she reveals her hubristic adolescence. I have noticed her obsession with gays and nazi references. Being a history minor and being German (my brother lives in Munich) perhaps I can provide some information she could use in future tantrums!
BTW – I would RESPECTFULLY not allow my children to participate as well, however, a situation like that can be used as salt and light, rather than moral judgmentalism. When faced with cultural issues that go against your faith, respond with the essence of the cross – redemption.
From the Overseers of .Info
Please stay on topic, unless you are demeaning Ingrid or Ken.
Please return to your commenting.
Phil its hardly a witch hunt, to raise some concerns about the subject of the thread..My concerns doesn’t mean i dislike the guy,think i’m better then him, or even think hes not my brother…
Rick i’m soooo confused by Ingrids or say RR forums view of the UK..If you believe them, the UK is full of rabid Islamic hand in hand with a massive gay movement, a slight oxymoron…She really as some weird ideas about what the UK’s like…
While that might be as easy as shooting fish in a barrel, most of the time we’re trying to focus in on a larger point (like insistence on a singular view of Creation) rather than just criticize.
I’m pretty sure you could not find it there, as its greatest command is the shema, which renders those others as false religions.
No straw man. When you make the gospel primarily (or exclusively) about eternity and p00-poo this life as some sort of way station where we just wait it out before going someplace else – When salvation is all about someday, when – then you’re just working w/ a hell-avoidance system…
Must it be either/or, or can it be both?
No, but I’m not sure of your point, since Bell mentions hell as being literal and not figurative – something with temporal and eternal ramifications.
Actually, I would change it to:
My view of the gospel has nothing to do with ‘postmodernism’ – rather it is based upon the first-century Hebrew-Christian view (rather than a modernist one).
Iggy,
In Re #101.
1) Yes, I am familiar with that book of the Bible. Nowhere does it say “God is sex.”
2) I don’t have an issue with anything that the Bible does.
3) I hope you’re not trying to say that God is Love and Sex is Love, therefore God is Sex.
Are you attempting to defend the statement “God is sex”?
Chris L,
In response to your post regarding exposing the untruths posted daily by Ingrid;
Fair enough. My suggestion is just a refutation of her stuff that does slip by. We know much of her stuff is crap but I hope some of her fans just might find a place accidentally via google to find the real truth. Perhaps a good blog idea for me…… Ingridslies.com
Hey Pastorboy……
Would you care to address posts #71 and #74 which I directed to you? And they were in relation to the OP.
Chris L,
Thanks for your comments. Let me see…
I’m not sure if you are including me in the “you”, but I never said anything about poo-pooing this life or that it’s just a waiting room for heaven. That’s the straw man I’m talking about.
Also, it is quite clear from Philippians 1 that Paul was ready to be done with this life, that he may be face to face with his Saviour. But he pressed on for the edification of the church. He wasn’t working towards “restoring this world”, but he was longing to see his Saviour in another world.
Once we are born again, life doesn’t just end. We must continue to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”. Each day we must repent and believe. We must love the Lord God with all our being. We must love our neighbor. We must produce fruit. But this happens after regeneration and rebirth, not before.
Now, that said, I don’t think our main focus should only be on our eternal life. But we are told that the “gift of God is eternal life”. Are we to go the other way and act like eternal life shouldn’t be hoped for? I’m sure you don’t believe that, but there are many whose language suggests this.
I’m not saying it’s either/or… I was arguing against that. At least trying to.
True, I may have been unfair in generalizing and placing you in that category. However, the “hell as an adjective for this earth” point was directly from Velvet Elvis. I don’t have it next to me now, otherwise I would quote it for you. But I’m sure you know what I’m talking about.
<blockquote cite=”Jesus Christ died to
save sinnersrestore the world. If we repent and believe in him, wewill be are saved. By the life of Jesus Christ, the law was fulfilled and I inherit righteousness undeserving. By the death of Jesus Christ, my sins were taken away. By the resurrection of Jesus Christ, I have eternal life. In receiving eternal life, I have the awesome responsibility to live as a ‘little Christ’ to the world.”>No, but I’m not sure of your point, since Bell mentions hell as being literal and not figurative – something with temporal and eternal ramifications.1. After reading the “if we repent” sentence again, I understand how I could have been misunderstood. But I do believe if we repent and believe, we are saved. No problems there.
2. I also agree with “In receiving eternal life, I have the awesome responsibility to live as a ‘little Christ’ to the world”, though I would probably use “imitator of God” instead of “little Christ.” But that’s possibly just semantics.
3. I do take exception to your definition of the Gospel (unless this is just a semantic misunderstanding again). The whole Bible is centered on the redemptive work of Christ – him laying down his life for his friends. My definition of the gospel is straight from Romans 5:8:
“but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
not
“but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died to restore the world.”
Unless, of course, “restore the world” means to bring redemption and reconciliation to God for us.
Sorry again, Mods, please delete the previous post.
Chris L,
Thanks for your comments. Let me see…
I’m not sure if you are including me in the “you”, but I never said anything about poo-pooing this life or that it’s just a waiting room for heaven. That’s the straw man I’m talking about.
Also, it is quite clear from Philippians 1 that Paul was ready to be done with this life, that he may be face to face with his Saviour. But he pressed on for the edification of the church. He wasn’t working towards “restoring this world”, but he was longing to see his Saviour in another world.
Once we are born again, life doesn’t just end. We must continue to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”. Each day we must repent and believe. We must love the Lord God with all our being. We must love our neighbor. We must produce fruit. But this happens after regeneration and rebirth, not before.
Now, that said, I don’t think our main focus should only be on our eternal life. But we are told that the “gift of God is eternal life”. Are we to go the other way and act like eternal life shouldn’t be hoped for? I’m sure you don’t believe that, but there are many whose language suggests this.
I’m not saying it’s either/or… I was arguing against that. At least trying to.
<blockquote cite=”No, but I’m not sure of your point, since Bell mentions hell as being literal and not figurative – something with temporal and eternal ramifications.No, but I’m not sure of your point, since Bell mentions hell as being literal and not figurative – something with temporal and eternal ramifications.
True, I may have been unfair in generalizing and placing you in that category. However, the “hell as an adjective for this earth” point was directly from Velvet Elvis. I don’t have it next to me now, otherwise I would quote it for you. But I’m sure you know what I’m talking about.
<blockquote cite=”Jesus Christ died to
save sinnersrestore the world. If we repent and believe in him, wewill beare saved. By the life of Jesus Christ, the law was fulfilled and I inherit righteousness undeserving. By the death of Jesus Christ, my sins were taken away. By the resurrection of Jesus Christ, I have eternal life. In receiving eternal life, I have the awesome responsibility to live as a ‘little Christ’ to the world.”>Jesus Christ died tosave sinnersrestore the world. If we repent and believe in him, wewill beare saved. By the life of Jesus Christ, the law was fulfilled and I inherit righteousness undeserving. By the death of Jesus Christ, my sins were taken away. By the resurrection of Jesus Christ, I have eternal life. In receiving eternal life, I have the awesome responsibility to live as a ‘little Christ’ to the world.1. After reading the “if we repent” sentence again, I understand how I could have been misunderstood. But I do believe if we repent and believe, we are saved. No problems there.
2. I also agree with “In receiving eternal life, I have the awesome responsibility to live as a ‘little Christ’ to the world”, though I would probably use “imitator of God” instead of “little Christ.” But that’s possibly just semantics.
3. I do take exception to your definition of the Gospel (unless this is just a semantic misunderstanding again). The whole Bible is centered on the redemptive work of Christ – him laying down his life for his friends. My definition of the gospel is straight from Romans 5:8:
“but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
not
“but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died to restore the world.”
Unless, of course, “restore the world” means to bring redemption and reconciliation to God for us.
I give up w/ xhtml… sorry for the confusion.
Crickets. Chirp. Chirp.
See #81,99,76…..
I will end it here because it is obvious you are not capable of admitting you made a false attack on someone. I didn’t say Bono didn’t have issues. I said your attack that “COEXIST” was……..blah blah blah” was not true as no such organization exists and Bono has not said salvation is through anyone else by Christ.
As for your definition that Muslim belief and Christianity can’t get along is specious. That was never the issue. The issue is that believers of each CAN and should get along as individuals. If the religions were to be melded into one as you suggest it means than I guess it would be called EXIST instead of COEXIST wouldn’t it? Why would one singular entity need to “co” anything.
Ingrid would be proud of your effort though to change the focus.