According to a list posted at CR?N of the Ten Marks of a False Convert, one such mark is belief in macro-evolution or Darwinism.
We’ve read other times at this ADM and its sister sites about the abomination of disbelief in a literal, 7-day Creation. Alas for one of their “heroes of the faith” Charles Haddon Spurgeon -
“In the 2d verse of the first chapter of Genesis, we read, ‘And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.’ We know not how remote the period of the creation of this globe may be—certainly many millions of years before the time of Adam. Our planet has passed through various stages of existence, and different kinds of creatures have lived on its surface, all of which have been fashioned by God. But before that era came, wherein man should be its principal tenant and monarch, the Creator gave up the world to confusion.” [emphasis mine]
– Charles Haddon Spurgeon. Sermon delivered on Sunday, June 17, 1855 at New Park Street Chapel.
Granted, you can’t call him a Darwinist, since this was 4 years before Charles Darwin wrote Origin of Species, but what he’s describing is inclusive of macro-evolution. False Convert! Shame! The next thing you know, people will be saying that Chuck S was a smoker and drinker, too!
Poor Charlie…
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
203 Comments(+Add)
Chris L,
You must really be bored. This is quite a stretch. Saying that the planet has “passed through various stages of existience, and different kinds of creatures have lived on its surface” does not explicilty or implicitly say that any of the life forms where changing one into the other.
The only way to read evolution into that quote is to want it to say that badly enough.
Beware, lest your desire to “stick it” to others in cutsey ways is makes you look foolish.
You might also note that this was in his ministries infancy as he was only a mere 21 years old or so. His 2nd year in the pulpit and you’re going to make an audacious comment like this? Really?
Chris you are totally lost man.
Oops, should proofread better. Delete “is” in the last sentence of my previous post.
What a bunch of total, unadulterated, unmitigated, unsubstantiated, rotting, stinking crap that article on CRN is… Ezekiel wouldn’t even use it to build a fire.
Seriously, these people really do make me sad. I hope one day they can escape the binds of their manmade religion. Talk about heaping burdens on people…
Wow.
You don’t need to defend Spurgeon. Chris isn’t attacking him.
Also, Spurgeon does say many millions of years. Find me a Young Earth creationist/6 day literalist (of which I am one) who thinks that millions of years fits with their views.
Bill – please note the article tags.
Particularly the one labeled ’satire’.
The belief that the earth was millions of years old was not uncommon in the church, prior to the modernist fights of the early 20th century. That Spurgeon held this belief is not uncommon, either.
That there are Christians today who hold one’s literal view of Creation as a litmus test for orthodoxy? Sadly, that’s become all too common.
Btw, great pic.
Bill,
Are you saying that Chris L. is a false convert? That he is not saved?
Or are you saying something else?
Christian P,
If you’re referring to me, I wasn’t defending Spurgeon or saying that Chris was attacking him, merely pointing out the inaccuracy of Chris’ statement.
This site’s unhealthy fascination with railing on Ken/Ingrid gets more and more apparent every day. Perhaps it ought to be renamed “didyouseewhatkenandingriddidtoday.com”
Awaiting “but they do it too” response in 3,2,1…
Bo? Iggy? Are you guys offline or something?
EVD -
The linked article was from Lane Chaplin (not Ken or Ingrid). I don’t see either of the two mentioned here… And who’s obsessed?
Yes, well, at least our kool-aid doesn’t have poison in it.
Oh, wait that was another thread at another blog.
Uh, what I meant to say was: That’s not true. Jesus found him.
Someone please tell me that Tony Miano is an actual policeman or such.
Because if not, I have to wonder if referring to oneself as “The Law Man” is the 11th mark of a false convert.
That would just be waaaaaaaaaaaay too ironic.
OK. I just read the 10 marks of a false convert post.
Bwaahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Interestingly enough, not one piece of Scriptural justification for any of them.
I think I’ll write my own top ten list. Top 10 reasons you might want to consider NOT trying to preach.
Dude needs to open his Bible.
Chris L,
I said “unhealthy fascination”, not “obsession”. I’m not sure what obsession you might be suggesting. The linked article was from Ken’s site, and I did not say it was written by Ken. Anyone reading this site with any regularity can recognize the pattern. I’m surprised you would try to dodge it rather than embrace it.
Did anyone else notice Tony preaches against and for sinless perfection in the post… One cannot sin and be a christian, yet one cannot believe in sinless perfection also…
Hilarious… !
It is also really funny he states someone needs to read their bible and then not use one scripture to back any of his assertions.
Again… hill-freakin’-larious!
iggy
Paul C,
Nope that is your job…
iggy
1. You believe that you are inherently a good person, thus denying the doctrine of Original Sin.
What if someone believes that human’s are an ambiguous mixture of the ability to do great good and great evil? Therefore inherently good and bad…
2. You commit idolatry of the mind and blaspheme the very character of God by denying essential doctrines such as judgment, hell, regeneration, and justification by faith alone; and you replace the truth with lies such as sinless perfection and open theism.
Why do I suspect that “denying essential doctrines” is really just code for “you hold to these doctrines, but don’t understand them/articulate them the way I would”? Is the belief in sinless perfection and open theism a denial of or rejection of the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross and resurrection? Honest disagreement can be had here, but talk about preaching “another gospel”.
3. You think that only the red-lettered words in your Bible are the words of Jesus and, therefore, the rest of the Bible can be interpreted and applied to your liking.
Talk about a reduction and a caricature. I know there’s disagreement about these things, but privileging the words of Jesus as the basis on which we understand the rest of Scripture is a legitimate way of approaching the text. And even if it is wrong, it’s not a condition of salvation. People who do #3 actually do so out of a desire to be faithful to God and their understanding of what their salvation means.
4. You believe that a person can be a Christian while wantonly engaging in habitual sin; such as homosexuality, fornication, adultery in mind or body, the support in any way whatsoever of the murder of the unborn, or any other sin.
First off, am I the only one not surprised that the explicitly stated examples are about managing genitalia?
Second, this is the classic way people marginalize any discussion/call to be aware of the struggle with sin and to be pastoral in our response to it as we walk through issues with people. It’s not a lack of standards to be compassionate. I know this because I’ve been subjected to this very critique when I’ve chosen to disciple people through these issues instead of feeding them to the high-minded wolves that would rather see me “lay the wood to them” and kick people out of the church.
5. You believe that because a person has prayed a prayer and asked Jesus into their heart, then they are saved.
I agree that being born from above is not made effective by some Christian equivalent of “abracadabra”. I also don’t believe that assent or disagreement with this description of how God may or may not work in us is a condition of salvation.
And these people say they upholding grace? Again, talk about adding to the gospel…
6. You believe a person can be a Christian, even if they bear no fruit after making a profession of faith in Christ. You treat the grace of God as a license to sin. You like the word backslider.
I agree that fruit should come from a Christian. But that list is found in Galatians. Remember? Love, joy, peace, etc. I don’t see “not cussing”, “no card playing”, “no secular music”, “no friends in the emerging church”, “no Nooma video watching”, etc. in that list or any other added cultural “fruit” that typically becomes the standard for these people. And these people say they’re the only ones that value the Scripture?
Treating God’s grace as a license to sin? Again, what is being defined as sin? If it’s the abrogation of your personal preferences or the taboos of your bourgeois sub-culture, that’s not sin. And to hell with telling anyone that they aren’t a real christian if that’s the standard. The only time I hear this complaint is when someone’s personal preferences have been elevated to moral absolute.
Liking the word “backslider”?
Really?
Really?
Oy.
7. You struggle with the thought of missing a meal; but going days, weeks, even months without reading your Bible doesnt faze you.
Or could this just be the sign of immaturity in the faith? There you go again adding to the gospel.
8. You pray when you want something from God; but beyond that you have very little time for conversation with Him.
See above.
9. You believe that Darwinian, macro-evolution is a scientific fact and compatible with belief in the God of the Bible.
You’ve officially crossed into the territory of “another gospel”. Yep, Jesus died to make our schools safe for Creationism. I forgot…Jesus saved my soul so that I could be a 6 day literalist. We can have honest disagreement about this issue, it’s just not a salvation issue.
10. You see evangelism as a gift other people have; and you have no real concern about the fact that 150,000 people die every day, with the vast majority of them bound for hell. You soothe your conscience by convincing yourself that friendship evangelism, as it is most commonly practiced among American Christians, is actually in the Bible. You think that if you let your little light shine, you dont have to verbally proclaim the gospel.
Agreed that these are real concerns, but largely are there because of immaturity or laziness.
Welcome to the real world where people aren’t perfect. But I guess this guy is in the clear so long as he doesn’t explicitly teach “perfectionism”.
Ick.
Ick.
Ick.
Great breakdown, NC, that was really helpful for me. Well, I’m off to work, but I shall chew on your insights tonight.
-Aaron
Thanks, Aaron.
@EVD:
Dude, scrape that egg off your face make an omelet and move on. Don’t play the Mike Ratliffe game of playing demigod to make words fit your own definition. This article linked to was our friend Lane, not Ken or Ingrid. Maybe you have the unhealthy fascination.
Great points, nc. I’m doomed too!!!
By the way, if anyone was worried, I am a young earth creationist. And I’ve endured internet persecution for said belief. Oh Heck, let’s just do the whole list and see how I do in this idiot’s little 10 marks test.
1. I believe in Original Sin
2.Well, I’m in trouble, because I do commit idolatry of the mind every time I sin. Essentially by sinning, I’m implying that my way is better than God’s. The very definition of sin.
#3 This one is just dumb. I affirm that the whole Bible is inspired by God
#4 This one is again rather obnoxious. We all sin, every day. I am willing to be a one issue voter so we’ll have to see if
the cop wanna be, lawmansilly self named guy can explain this one better.#5 Good to go here too.
#6. I don’t like the word backslider. The only people I hear use it are people like this guy and they usually give me indigestion.
#7. I read my Bible every day. Usually multiple times a day. Of course, so does a friend of mine that is agnostic.
#8. Ha! God and I talk all the time.
#9. I’ve already covered this one.
#10. I honestly think this
clanging cymbal…pastor…guy might be a heretic. Jesus did talk about our light, you know.Can I add what I think #11 is?
You might be a false convert if you think this list is a good test.
#23
Tony Miano is a very good friend of mine, and a veteran of the LA County Sheriff’s Department. His service to his city, county, and to the citizens far outweigh anything you have ever thought of doing, as he has placed his life on the line for them. So your opinion, Joe, of him is irrelevant and undeserved.
I have more respect for the hecklers he faces on the streets doing his full time evangelistic ministry. At least they are man enough to admit they have no love for Christ and the brethren as they mock him and spit in his face. You claim to be a fellow believer, and yet you are a backbiter and a goat, demonstrated by your gutless assault on the man.
He earned the name Lawman, for that is what he was with the Sheriffs Department. That is what he was as he ministered to Lawmen across the country under 10-4 ministries. And that is what he preaches on the streets, preparing men’s hearts for the Gospel.
It is too bad the internet allows this casting of pearls before swine. You would be better off examining yourself in the light of scripture than mocking it.
I guess this is what you get sitting under the preaching of a universalist who does not believe in the whole of scripture as he mocks the basic tenents of faith to earn a buck; or $22 for each video assault on the Christian faith he sells.
# 14
If you would actually watch the video, you would see the scriptural backup for each point.
But, I guess it is do what I say, not what I do on this blog…
WOW, Johnboy, feel better? That was quite the little temper tantrum, two year old diaper wetting going on there.
BTW, Johnboy. I passed his little test. Now, you’ve added a 12th. If you don’t like your friends, then you’re a false convert (goat). Careful, Johnboy, you’ll have to give an account for that some day.
One last one Johnboy, they only cost 12 bucks. Not 22. Sheesh.
Nooma is actually a non-profit organization, so at the end of the year, the balance sheet has to be at zero. I don’t Bell makes any money off them.
#29 Don’t confuse, JohnBoy with facts. I’m sure Rob is real concerned about what he thinks of him.
Joe,
You have proven by your hatred for another believer that you are either a goat or reveling in sin.
How dare you call Tony Miano an idiot, a cop wanna be, silly self-named guy, clanging cymbal, and a heretic. How dare you insinuate he is anything less than a honorable former police officer (you or I have no right to call him a cop- that is reserved for his ‘family’)
You are the one who will answer my friend.
And I do not care what your so called ‘pastor’ charges for that crap he calls nooma. It aint worth the plastic and paper it is printed on. If it were sofy I could recycle it appropriately by using it to cleanse my netherregions after doing my business. For now, it will just have to serve as the bottom of my bird cage.
For Pete’s sake, this gets old. Why not do what Slice, CRN, Apprising and co. are not doing – and preach the Gospel!!!
Pull the plank out of your own eye, boy.
Johnboy,
Temper, temper, temper. You know a man who can’t control his temper made God’s list of potential false converts. I’d be careful. And now you’ve born false witness against me. I never called him an idiot.
Careful, you don’t get a splinter when you’re busy pulling that plank out of your eye. Don’t talk to me about cops. I’ve served my country and I’ve got plenty of cops for relatives.
You are crude, and crass man who has temper problems.
#33
The plank is pulled, girl, and you can back off. You are not even as much a man as Joe is sitting behind your computer anonomously. At least Joe has the stones to communicate outside this little box. The G.R.P.D can go to his house and explain to him the impact that Tony Miano has made on their department through his national and international chapliancy ministry.
But Bo-peep, little girl, hides behind the box.
Johnboy, Were you a Marine? Army? Air Force? Coast Guard? What?
liar.
#35.
I’m a chaplain. In Detroit and many other places.
Now, you’re calling names. Are you sexist? Is there something wrong with being a girl? If not, why would you call Bo Diaz a girl in a pejorative (that means in a derogatory way) manner? Does your wife and daughter know that you think there’s something wrong with being a girl?
Ah, sorry. I meant Lane but I can see how I miss-communicated.
It ain’t temper, Pal.
It is holy offense that you would castigate God’s servant like that.
I am offended. But it is offense for the sake of the Gospel.
I know Tony isn’t worried. You are like a water off a ducks back. Your words are as stupid as they are worthless.
But I am offended; offended for my friend.
Temper? You ain’t seen it from me yet, pal.
#40.
Haha! Sure Johnboy, sure. But you admit you are a sexist?
Such tough words.
Lane didn’t write it.
Tony did.
Lane just posted it.
Of course, you didn’t watch the video with the scripture, and demonstrating the heart of the man. That only works if you are telling me to watch or listen to Bell.
And if you are a Chaplin, you will appreciate that Tony started a nationwide ministry that has also gone overseas that ministers to Police Officers all over the world.
Let me quote you back to you: You have proven by your hatred for another believer that you are either a goat or reveling in sin.
Of course, what would we expect from someone who has made their entire online “ministry” by lying about believers.
I aint no sexist.
But I have no idea if Bo is a boy or a girl.
Or a man or a woman
My guess?
Something in between. Either a boy without the stones to reveal his identity, or a little girl who is all talk and needs the protection of anonimity.
I find it interesting that Johnboy finds being a police officer more admirable than being in Christ.
I suppose when your priorities are to run over someone in cold blood with your car then that’s the kind of messed up belief system you end up with. Wield a gun and “Pastor” Boy admires you, follow Christ, well only if you’re willing to use your car as a deadly weapon.
I realize that. I’ve apologized Johnboy. Still waiting for you to explain why calling someone a girl is a bad thing. That makes you a sexist.
Are you trying out for comedy improv? To use Rick Frueh’s metaphor, you’re as likely to find the Gospel on CRN/Apprising/Slice as you are to find a nickel in a spittoon.
It might be buried somewhere in the muck and snot, but you’re gonna get filthy trying to find it…
Bo Peep,
I don’t even know what you are, for you wear an online mask.
I cannot tell if you are a Christian, but I can tell you hate other Christians by the way you go after Ingrid and Ken and myself…
But thats okay, Bo Peep…go herd your goats.
The man may have done some good and honorable things in his life, but it doesn’t negate the fact this list is idiotic. Scriptural support, my butt. This his own list of fence laws that he trying to make universal.
Regarding the evolution thing, it’s interesting that even men like Charles Hodge and Benjamin Warfield who were basically the fathers of modern fundamentalism had no problem with theistic evolution. Warfield actually studied biology for his undergrad degree. It was only later that fundies started warring over it.
#45
Bad grammar aside. You are a sexist. You’re whole stones and girl schtick is just silly.
You’ve gone and stepped in it again because you get angry and can’t think straight when that happens.
I’m not all that insulted when a boy who defines courage by the willingness to kill tries to insult my manhood. Especially when this has been covered again and again.
Why don’t you go spread some more lies about Rick Warren and Mormons.
Or attack Sandi Patti for her divorce while not saying a word about Ingrid’s.
Yeah, you’re real courageous, won’t even confront Ingrid over her own sin, but will make up sins so Ingrid will pat you on your head and say “good boy”.
Little Bo Peep
A wolf among the sheep
you don’t know where to find him?
Where sheep attack
and bite your back
On C?Ninfo you’ll find im.
#50
Just watch the video…..it is FULL of Scripture…
more full than JWTSC, I might add.
Bo,
I am confronting you on your sin.
You are a ’sheep’ and you backbite and lie about brothers and sisters in Christ.
You are what you accuse the ADM’s of being.
hypocrite.
Apply your measuring stick to yourself. You lie, and murder with your mouth. And by your own admission would murder with your car if you could.
Now be a good little boy and don’t breathe a word of Ingrid’s sins, while excoriating Ted Haggard for his.
Johnboy, this has been fun.
To be honest, this is a new low for you. Insulting someone by making genital references and calling them a girl.
I’m actually disappointed in you and my expectations of you were so low to begin with…
Mr. Miano’s past service in law enforcement is irrelevant to his 10 points.
It has no bearing on if the 10 points are correct, incorrect, a mixture of both, heresy, gospel-adding, or perfect interpretation of Scripture.
He deserves no special credibility as a pastor because of his prior career.
Bring it, Bo
We can take this to E-mail, and leave this poor thread alone..
Oh yeah…you can’t….too much of a sissy.
Oh well.
I am through with you. I shake the dust off my feet, you lying sack of scubalon.
Joe,
I didn’t see your apology, but if its there, so be it.
Now Johnboy, let me take you through your own stupid theology.
You refuse to confront Ingrid or rebuke her for her sin because she’s not a member of your congregation.
Neither am I.
Neither is Rob Bell.
Neither is Rick Warren.
Neither is anyone you write and lie about.
So start living up to your own standards for once.
#58
It means something when people insinuate he was never a police officer, and he does not deserve the name law-man.
Bo Peep,
I am through with you.
Really.
Well, I’m out for the night. This has been fun. I’ll have to send Ingrid an email about Johnboy being a prurient pastor who makes genital references to insult someone.
Be a man and say shit, instead of playing semantic games so you don’t get called out on pretend law added to the gospel by your ADM friends.
Oh I’m sure you’re through with me.
Its your pattern.
As soon as your exposed for the lying hypocrite you are you just disappear. So scoot off boy, see you the next time you decide its time to lie, and apply different standards to your friends than to everyone else.
#9 of the Miano 10…that alone is an adding to the gospel.
#61.
Yeah, stupid list aside that’s real persecution the guy’s dealing with there. I mean he’s a hero so his stupid list with mangled Scripture is A-OK.
Good Grief. I’m done for the night.
scubalon?
Really?
That’s ok to say to someone?
Everyone needs to take a deep breath.
Joe,
sleep well.
I hope you don’t have nightmares about that cop and his silly list.
Theres the difference….
Tony’s list has scriptural support.
Yours doesn’t.
Good night Joe.
70
How high minded do you have to be to not “get” sarcasm?
Just wondering…
#68
Well, NC
He is full of scubalon, to be sure. He, she, or it knows nothing about me.
I don’t know if it is okay, but we justify our friend Bono around here for being Irish…I just thought I would be Greek.
Bwahahaha. Yeah, cause you don’t put up shit filled websites that you call your ministry.
To the same degree that its possible to know about all the people you lie about, its possible to know about you. So if I don’t anything about you, you know nothing about the people you write about.
72:
That bit about being Greek is actually quite funny, PB.
Seriously.
I would say too that you don’t really know anything about Bo, either.
Just say’n.
#74
I have admitted as such… I hope he is not a she because I would blush saying scubalon with a lady present.
I leave for several hours and a food fight breaks out. Let me say that posting ten marks of a false convert is law and encourages people to view others through a self righteous prism. If grace is not powerful enough to withstand the sins of believers than it is law and not grace.
No one, and I mean NO ONE, can tell who is and who is not saved.
MARKS OF SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS
1. You measure people by man made marks of salvation without looking into the mirror yourself.
#76
I assure you that Tony takes out the mirror several times a day to examine himself.
PB,
Re: 77
That’s just vanity, and it should be repented of immediately, assuming your friend is a believer.
I read the list and I was puzzled by #10 – you think that only the red letter words are the words of Jesus, not the rest of the Bible – or words to that effect.
Not sure what to do with that, but I’m also not sure how Jesus could get Jehoiakim’s age wrong, saying he was 18 when he began his reign in the book of 2 Kings and eight in the book of 1 Chronicles. I was taught to believe, and I still believe, that Jesus is God and that he is omniscient and perfect.
I certainly don’t mean this to sound blasphemous, but there are some obvious contradictions in the KJV, so I find it difficult to believe every word was put there by a perfect God and that this book is also inerrant.
After reading this thread I am now contemplating buddhism.
PB and Bo -
Knock off the back/forth, please and keep the discussion OT…
False convert alert!
This list is soooo self contradictory…
You are saved by grace… if you can mark of all of these 10. What nonsense
Belief in sinless perfection puts you on the outside… but don’t sin otherwise you just might be a false convert.
Sometimes pastors should go do some contemplating before getting behind a pulpit.
In order to accurately identify false converts you will need the 3-D Bat glasses that can see the heart. They have become very fashionable these days, some even powerful enough to identify such false converts as Rick Warren.
Here are some hints to avoid having false converts:
* Do not greet church guests with a friendly handshake and smile, the devil can use that to lead the nonelect into a decision.
* Do not provide any ministries for children since many will make false professions just to take advantage of that child care.
* The pastor should not visit since his personality might pressure a false profession, the elect sinner will come on his own
* Do not feed the poor, visit the sick, or clothe the naked becaue many will follow because of the “loaves and fishes” and are not really born again
* When someone desires to be converted, do not assist him in any way. Remember, you do not lead anyone to Christ.
* After someone makes a profession of faith, make him fill out a daily spiritual accomplishments sheet that gives a report om their Bible study, time in prayer, memorizing verses, repeating different confessions, and intensive study of systematic theology.
* Ask the supposed convert how he feels about Rick Warren, Rob Bell, Billy Graham, and other notable heretics.
These and other precautions must be taken to avoid those horribel and pesky goats coming to graze in God’s pasture!
Chris L,
Either the English language, unless spoken, is hard for you or you sincerely misread:
Why not do what Slice, CRN, Apprising and co. are not doing (re-read the last three words – ARE NOT DOING) – and preach the Gospel!!!
They may not be preaching the Gospel, but homie, what’s your excuse?
Hey Chris,
If you will note, I invited little Bo Peep off line to discuss, but of course, he/she/it refused.
On topic?
I think this OP stinks, it does not reflect the heart of the man giving the message, and it was given without a look at the video presentation. In short, utter hypocrisy.
Every time I quote Bell using bell’s own words, Joe or Neil or You or Iggy tell me to listen to the whole message because that will provide context or whatever. Yet, you criticize without even listening to the message.
Utter hypocrisy.
CRNInfo has become the charachiture of the ADMs they have created themselves.
Bo – can you please email me at lyons8804 at earthlink d0t net?
K (CSC) – my apologies for the error. I missed the ‘not’ (as is now obvious).
I would say that we have articles that deal with a number of issues, the primary one being aspects of what is (and is not) part of the kingdom. I would also say that, since our primary audience is already Christian, we spend less time evangelizing, and more time exploring the kingdom.
You do make a good point, though, that we need to check our balance (and I probably need to watch myself on weeks that RL involves too much contention). We need to take an example from Paul:
Part of living in the kingdom involves protecting brothers in the faith, part of it includes restoration:
According to this OP’s standard, Rob Bell is a heretic as well.
You will find no objection from me.
PB,
I did watch (actually ‘listen’) to most of the video. However, the CR?N article also included this:
So – either the CR?N poster (Lane) was lying (and the points not covered in the presentation were purposely left out because he no longer agreed with them), or Lane was accurately describing the situation.
Here is what I wrote about Tony (in its entirety):
Do you disagree that Tony listed one “Mark of a False Convert” as:
You believe that Darwinian, macro-evolution is a scientific fact and compatible with belief in the God of the Bible.
Did I misrepresent Tony here? If so, how?
# 89
Not with that line, but the tenor of the OP, and going after Spurgeon (even in jest) you have…
And of course, we have the comments….
PB – are we back to your inability to understand satire? I tagged this one from the beginning and underlined it in #6. Your slanders against Bell have nothing to do w/ satire.
This post isn’t about Tony (or Lane) – it’s about the Pharisaical notion that belief in a literal, 6-day creation (and rejection of Theistic Evolution) is the only acceptable belief of a follower of Christ. And how better to illustrate the ludicrosity of this notion than to quote the Reformed idol, Chuckie Spurgeon?
#91
My friend, it is the clear reading of the first three chapters of Genesis that God created…in six days (evening and morning…yom) and on the seventh he rested.
Anything else doubts the veracity of scripture, or the ability of God to speak and it is so.
If we don’t believe what God says about creation….how easy it would be to begin to doubt the virgin birth! Oh yeah…Bell has already done that
PB -
It has nothing to do with “doubting the veracity of scripture”. As we’ve noted before, there are 5 or 6 acceptable Christian beliefs in the mechanics of Creation – all of which support the ‘veracity of scripture’…
(Note: when I say 5 or 6, I am affirming):
There are some who break ‘Day-Age Creationism’ into two categories (thus ‘or 6′), pulling out Theistic Evolution as a separate theory.
The primary unacceptable historic position for a Christian to take which does reject the veracity of Scripture is:
RE 92:
That’s a perfect example how obsession over slippery slopes = what eventually becomes a life-destroying legalism.
Do you really believe that if you have an honest disagreement over how to interpret the first three chapters of Genesis, you must therefore deny the Virgin Birth?
It’s like believing real Christians couldn’t think Obama/Biden was, all things considered, a better ticket than McCain/Palin.
Really?
#95
Nope; I believe if you do not take God’s Word as it was clearly interpreted, you could easily begin (like Rob Bell has) to ask if the other standards (such as the Virgin Birth) can be called into question.
Quit trying to jam your supposed science into the Bible! Just take God for what He says! God created! He could do it in one second, seven days, or seven ages. He said day-YOM evening and morning.
And seeing as Barak Obama wants to create a Socialist state where I have to pay for your health care, your abortion, your killing babies for their stem cells…yeah…I think God is opposed to murder, and more concerned about human life than the economy. I do not believe a Christian can support abortion by giving their vote to Obama…either they did it willfully or they were blinded and ignorant. Which one were you?
And yom doesn’t always mean 24-hours, and day/night didn’t exist until day 4… None of the Christian views of creation doubt that God created.
Science is just the systematic observation of Creation, which should point to, not contradict, God (as Paul observes in Romans 1). Thus, some view the Creation story as true, with its mechanics (to varying degrees) played out within the natural laws God created.
Modernism/Literalism didn’t arrive until 1800+ years of the church, before which there was very little disagreement with the notion that the world might be millions of years old (as both Augustine and Spurgeon support), and that the Creation story might be more figurative than literal.
As for Obama, I generally agree with you (as noted before), and if you couldn’t have voted for McCain/Palin (which I also understand), the best course would have been the Frueh option.
What does Obama have to do with this thread? Is he false convert as well? It seems the majority of Christians would be according to this bogus list.
PB,
First off, a point of agreement: I completely agree that God is more concerned about human life than the economy! Absolutely. It’s a little strange how everyone agrees that the solution (at least short term) to our economic woes is increased consumer consumption, but isn’t that just another name for materialism?
The problem I have with your argument is that it rests on a false premise: I do not believe that when you support a candidate, you thereby support every position that candidate holds. Sometimes, a vote for a candidate is a vote *against* the candidate’s opponent.
With Obama, I decided I could not in good conscience vote for McCain/ Palin. There were multiple issues, many of them touching on the issue of life, in fact: 1.) I believe the Iraq war is a “life”issue, and that preemptive war is wrong and to be avoided; 2.) I believe our justice system, and specifically capital punishment is flawed, and that, until we get a better system, it’s probably best that we not kill people in our government’s name 3.) I don’t believe that our immigration policy should be to round up every illegal immigrant currently in this country and ship them back to where they came from. Not only would such a move destroy countless families, it would go against the very character of what this nation wishes to be 4.) I believe finding a way to insure the 40 million Americans currently lacking health insurance is, generally, a good and right thing to do.
About abortion, the issue is tragic. It’s tragic because I don’t know how electing our president is going to change anything. I fear we may be tilting at windmills now. Roberts himself said that he thinks Roe is “settled law,” and it seems unlikely that he would overturn it on the basis of stare decisis. That means Alito, Thomas, and Scalia are the only likely “overturn” votes, which means a President McCain would have had to appoint two clearly pro-life Justices, which, unfortunately, WOULD HAVE NEVER HAPPENED WITH THIS SENATE. Even then, of course, the issue would have gone back to the States.
And, as a practical matter, abortion rates under Clinton plummeted, but they slowed under Bush (but did not increase as some liberals falsely argued). Still though, that points to the connection between economic conditions and abortion rates (which, unlike the Supreme Court’s makeup and voting patterns, is something we can actually have an impact on), and indicates that Clinton, in his own (very limited, obviously) way, was more effective at combatting abortion than Bush.
Finally, I decided that I could not in good conscience vote for Sarah Palin. She did not seem to me up to the task of being a heartbeat away from the Presidency. That was also a life issue. I feared a Palin Presidency, and was frankly unsure what she might accidentally do if she were elected President.
What tipped me over the edge was the prank the Montreal DJs played on her, pretending to be Nicolas Sarkozy. If you haven’t listened to it, you should. She is, in a single word, clueless. The call revealed to me that she lacked a basic, floor-level, fitness for the second-highest office in the land.
These are all complicated issues. I think people of good faith and conscience can differ.
And I think our is a narrow faith we can state that people who do differ cannot be Christians.
And to bring it back to the OP, politics, just like whether you agree perfectly with a particular interpretation of the first three chapters of Genesis, is just another thing we add to the list.
Contrary to popular belief, the new earth will be populated by more than just a handful of 21st century white Republicans.
This is funny. We start out with a stupid list that has very little basis in Scripture (in spite of the Scripture that was twisted and mashed to be used in the vid) and Johnboy gets all mad that the tenor of the OP didn’t reflect the guy’s heart.
Well, that cuts both ways, Johnboy you’re posts rarely reflect the heart of the men you write about.
While we’re at the heart of people. You have quite the heart.
1.Calling someone a girl is insulting in Johnboy land. (That really looks like Christ)
2. Talking about wiping your nether regions is good to go in Johnboy land.
3. Lying about people you don’t agree with is A-OK in Johnboy land.
Yeah, that’s the heart of Jesus.
As stated, I do not know if little bo-peep is a girl, a boy, or an it. If I wanted to be insulting, I would call him a Yankee fan.
With Rob Bell’s materials…absolutely. It is just filling to overflowing what his writing and speaking already is full of.
How am I lying? Sort of like ” I didn’t call Tony an Idiot”?
I will never, ever email, facebook, or otherwise communicate with Johnboy because its clear that he wants personal details of people’s lives in order to smear them on one of his shit filled websites.
He knows I’m Diaz from LA, and that’s all he’ll ever know.
Talk about the heart of Jesus.
Talk about the Heart of Jesus
Yep…here is the heart of Jesus….
Nice…the heart of Jesus…
Yep…this is the heart of Jesus….
Physician, heal thyself. Or, in the case of your boy Alex Rodriguez…cheat…deny…lie..come clean only when caught.
#103
Or you are gutless…
Look, at least Joe knows that he has e-mailed me personally…as has Chris L….as has Iggy….as has Neil….and not one of those conversations has ever been exposed anywhere, nor will they be.
PB:
RE# 102, please review comment 35 and retract accordingly.
To both PB and Bo, the back and forth makes you both look bad. A lot of serious anger here. I don’t know Bo’s story, but aren’t you a pastor of a church, PB? Wow. Just wow.
Anyway, try to play nice. If Christ can ask the Father to forgive the people who crucified him, the least you two can do is not smear each other with invectives.
Johnboy,
You are a lying, hateful, spiteful man who murders people with his mouth whenever he can. You can’t be trusted in any way.
BoPeep
Take this to E-mail. It is not about the OP
Oh yeah…you won’t…
I will. I am not gutless.
Killing is good, and emailing is brave… twisted worldview you have there.
#96 key word: interpreted
Johnboy,
Are you even a follower of Christ? You bring up things that have been apologized for, you misquote by removing the strike lines.
I do find you amusing though. I pass his checklist and yet I’m a goat.
Wow, wow, wow.
#98
Clearly, he is.
He does not believe that Jesus is the only way to salvation, which makes me wonder what he is trusting in.
How can a Christian sign legislation that allows more abortions, and easier access to abortion? How can a Christian sign stem cell research legislation that allows the killing of babies?
Sorta makes you wonder which Jesus he believes in.
BTW, Johnboy was that a “You do it too” argument?
Aren’t you a pastor? You don’t look much like one. Have your higher ups in your denomination seen your shenanigans at this site? Could I have their address, I’d love to write them.
#111
I just copied and pasted. I did not remove the strike lines. Try it and see.
Just noticed this when you brought it up…sorry…
#113
I would do the same with your ‘Pastor’ Joe, but I don’t believe it would do any good. He has no higher accountability. He just brings too much $$ to the table for that.
I accept your apology and I won’t bring it back up again. Well my RL calls. This truly has been fun. Sometimes I forget.
#115.
Another wonderful non-answer. You can write our board of elders any day of the week. They’ll laugh you out of the room, but good luck with that.
You’ve never seen or heard Rob (who BTW, is only one of my pastors) say or do any of the crud that you on this site. Way to dodge your own shortcomings as a pastor with a temper.
#106
I am not angry with BoPeep, how could I be?
he/she/it is just a scared little person who hides in the confines of ‘LA’ and says whatever he/she/it wants to with no fear of someone ever finding out who he/she/it really is!
At least Joe puts his name out there, as does Chris L as does Iggy, and a lions share of people who comment on this site.
#117
Exactly… because it has been tried before…when they are addressed with Biblical complaints, such as Rob’s stand on homosexuality in the church and leadership, it is answered with a form letter and a ‘grace and peace’
And your comment confirms my cartoon bubble…that as they spew out the form letter, they guffaw at the concerns of Biblical Christians.
But Joe, I would never write to anyone concerning your comments, anyway. I would tell you to your face, or over e-mail.
PB:
To claim that your interactions here do not reveal, at times, an anger you have stretches credulity.
Sadly, I find you to be one of the least credible regular commenters.
#120
My anger is at Joe’s statements about a friend of mine, and little BoPeeps continued false statements about…well…everything.
I can be angry and not sin, which I strive to do, but I am sure, fall short.
It just amazes me that Tony is right now on the streets of LA sharing the Gospel, and some sit here and snipe at him. That really bothers me. I think it bothers Jesus also.
Actually…Little BoPeep..whoever you are…
Tony will be at Huntington Beach Pier today at 1:00. Why don’t you do the real Christian thing and confront him face to face?
Actually, he will be there from like 10:00 AM till almost 3:30.
You really should go.
I bet he will buy you an In and Out while you discuss this with him..face to face…
It seems like this thread has been derailed…
Can we just get back to the content of what Mr. Miano said?
He’s adding to the Gospel.
It’s something to talk about…
#123
No, he is not.
Thats like saying 1 John is adding to the Gospel.
1 John was written so that we can examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith.
This list, scripturally supported, was written and preached, not to add to the Gospel, but to assist us in examining ourselves.
He also says..you MIGHT be a false convert….not that you are one.
#123
Listen to about 10:20 in the message.
PB,
I guess I have a problem mostly with #4 and #9. It adds to the gospel that in order to be a Christian, you have to be a Republican voting, Six-day young-earth Creationist.
You realize that excludes 99% of professing Christians over the past 2000 years, right?
I have news for you…it is not compatible. Darwinian, macro evolution is not compatible with any of the 5 biblical views Chris L listed, for it is in direct opposition to what is taught in Genesis, whether it is a day-age or literal 24 hour day. God created a chicken as a chicken, not as a single celled organism.
wontanly and habitual are the key phrases. We all sin, sometimes unknowingly. But if we plan, we dive in, we live a lifestyle in clear denial of what the Word teaches and our conscience screams, have we ‘mortified’ the old man? Have we repented? He is not talking about anything new…read 1 John. ‘walking in darkness’ ’saying we have no sin’ – that is denying what the Word teaches- are not the marks of a Christian..
by these standards, the 99% would be in big trouble. I am glad God made me a one percenter.
PB:
You just admitted that you sin “unknowingly.”
If so, then that is sin engaged in without repentance. Is that not “wanton” and “habitual?”
You see, this isn’t about “wanton” and “habitual” sin, per se. This is not about pride, or gluttony, or hatred, or anything else.
It’s about the *specific sins* mentioned. Those are the sins you can’t commit unknowingly. You just can’t be an Obama supporter, for the grace of God is insufficient.
But you can sin, even unknowingly, in other way, and God’s grace will be sufficient.
I’m sorry, but if that isn’t adding to the gospel, I don’t know what is.
And about the 1 percent comment, you don’t really believe that 21st century Americans will make up the vast majority of heaven, do you?
Do you?
So do we need to list all the sins for this to be valid?
Nah…
The 1% comment?
I am glad that god saved me. That is what matters, whatever century or country I am in…
RE: 130:
Well, yes. Because otherwise you’re reinforcing that there are pet sins that are allowable, whether acknowledged or not, and there are other sins that are not allowable, even if done out of ignorance.
That’s no biblical. Period.
Quite honestly, I see you come to this place and sin on a pretty regular basis. Telling someone that he’s a sack of shit, is not, in my opinion, biblical.
But luckily, God’s grace is sufficient for you, just as it is sufficient for all sorts of people that are imperfect in ways, (gasp!) that are *different* than you.
But lest you be prideful, I’m pretty sure there are a lot of Obama-supporting Christians out there who aren’t busy telling other Christians that they are sacks of shit.
PB,
So you are saying there are no real Christians that struggle with the flesh?You wantonly and habitualy engage in very un-Christlike behavior particulary on this thread.
Yep
I am a sinner…saved by grace…I am the most wretched of all.
And I called him a lying sack of scubalon. And I stand by it.
And MG, it is examples of sins that the modern garbage we call christianity in this culture accept. And they should include gluttony, gossip, and lying.
Like BoPeep does every time he posts….hence the fact that he is full of fecal matter. He lies due to the anonimity of his name. He lies about who he is.
PB,
By your “biblical”standards,you are in the same 99% that you consider unregenerate.
Alright, PB, I must confess, when you write things like “I am the most wretched of all” it sounds fake, platitudinous, and almost creepy.
It’s just not believable.
Also, it’s spelled anonymity. That keeps bugging me.
Finally, “modern garbage we call Christianity?”
Really? Should we go back to the slavery of before? What about the racism?
We aren’t getting worse, we’re trading new sins for old ones. That’s what we do. We’re human.
You, though, you sound like you think you are better than everyone on this planet. And it’s pretty sickening.
Everything starts our as a single celled organism… that is basic science… what do you think the egg and sperm are all about?
So God does not create a human from a single cell which splits and multiplies until it forms a human body?
Good greif… you deny how God does things!?!
According to this statement you seem to believe people and chickens spontaneously pop into existence fully developed! :lol”
My sides are splitting… !
iggy
MG,
When PB writes that he is but a sinner… saved by grace… it is almost the only thing I do agree with him about.
iggy
#138
So when Genesis 1 says that God created Adam from the dust which he had created, he created a single cell organism?
What you are talking about is reproduction, not creation.
Believe what you want to MG, I am a sinner, the most wretched, there is nothing good in me. Only by the grace of God do I have any hope. So, I am no good. I am not even as good as the fictional liar Opus and BoPeep. I am the lowest of scum, having no hope, without Christ. I am glad he chose me, even though I am unworthy.
This is pretty ridiculous. It’s not in “direct opposition”, no matter how much you try to say it is. Evolution is describing a process, and it’s not incompatible to say that God may have used a process of small changes over billions of years to bring about the world as we know it. Many Christians throughout the years have believed this.
Like Iggy pointed out, humans start out as basically single cells in the womb, and they multiply and grow to a full human being. If God uses that sort of process for human life, I don’t see why He couldn’t use some sort of longer, drawn out process in creating the earth. He’s not bound by time, so saying He did something in a day is just a way to differentiate a general order.
In any case, making this issue something a person has to believe to be Christian is asinine. I can imagine the conversation –
“Would you like to surrender your life to Christ now?”
“You would!”
“That’s great!”
“First though, do you believe in evolution?”
“Oh…you do…that’s too bad.” “I’m sorry, you can never be a Christian until you give that up.”
How is that not adding requirements to salvation?
BP,
There you go off again ,Igave you my name and address 2 years ago .I wanted to meet with you.You then went bonkers on NT Wright on the next comment,youmade accusations with NOTHING to back your words an I figured”whats the use” and did not respond back.So I am not a liar or fictitional.You know who I am.Stop being a liar
PB,
That is not what you stated.
Yes God created all things as they are. Yet, there is micro evolution and I have read good cases for macro also…
There is a thought that a literal 6 day creation could happen as the universe expanded over millions of years. I won’t even try to explain it to you as you won’t even grasp it…
but suffice it that as the universe expands a day and millions of years could happen at the same time.
Here is an article… though I suppose you will just focus on that it mentions Kabbalah… try to focus on things like “the planets and heavens did not exist until the fourth day” and the science part of the article. I do not believe in or support Kabbalah, yet the science is interesting fitting both the 6 day creation and 15 millions years together with the string theory.
iggy
#142
I do not recall that, Opus.
PB,
I think a apology would be the way to go.
Bo peep
You are a non-entity. Even the devil can quote scripture.
Pastorboy,
I think you are also a non-entity as most often you spew nonsense and unchristian verbage… you can’t be real…
iggy
Carlos
I know you are not a non entity
a non entity could not have such a huge presence.
I cannot wait to have a cigar and some coffee with you, buddy.
#149
A perfect description of this site!
1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power.
PB,
Even the devil can quote scripture.
Bo Peep, Iggy, and MG…
I am concerned.
Have you ever told a lie? Stolen anything, or used God’s name in vain?
Jesus said,” whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” Have you looked with lust? If so, thats only four of God’s commandment that you’ve broken.
Will you be guilty on judgment day? If you have done those things, God sees you as a lying, thieving, blasphemous, adulterer at heart. The bible warns that if you are guilty you will end up in hell.
Thats not God’s will.
He sent His Son to suffer and die on the cross for you. You broke God’s law, but Jesus paid your fine. That means He can legally dismiss your case. He can commute your death sentence.
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit 1 Peter 3:18
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”
John 3:16
Then He rose from the dead and defeated death.
Please, repent (turn from sin) today and trust alone in Jesus, and God will grant you the gift of everlasting life.
Its not just believing in God, even the demons believe and tremble but you must repent and trust in Jesus Christ.
I will pray for you.
Have a great day, I am gone.
Darwinian, macro-evolution could potentially fall into Theistic evolution, so yes, it could be within the 5 biblical views I listed.
Darwinian evolution, to my knowledge (and it’s been a few years since my last bio course), only goes to the method of evolution, not the original cause (God or random).
Personally, when people ask me what I subscribe to, I go with Gen 1:1 – God created. I don’t rightly care about the exact mechanism of Creation, and I’m not willing to stake out a hill to die on apart from who its Creator was…
PB,
RE:151
You see, why do you launch into random insults? Do you think nothing of value is said here? It’s all complete trash?
That all of us, every single commenter who is at all sympathetic to this site’s mission, are unsaved?
Really?
This site isn’t perfect, not by a long shot, but it does point out serious errors with some of the so-called discernment websites.
I don’t see how you can be so dismissive.
I guess I have my answer with #153.
Wow. Just wow. When I don’t believe he can get any more condescending and childish.
Back at ya Johnboy.
Everyone on your list admits they sin and trust in Christ alone.
You, on the other hand, trust in your ability to perfectly identify sin and perfectly repent of it. And of course to perfectly believe all the additional doctrine you claim is needed ala six day creationism.
Talk about works based theology.
?
Mr pot meet Mr Kettle!
What a piece of work you are John…
So? I guess you have NEVER EVER done anything like that and now have reach sinless perfection… and if so, why have you not yet ascended into heaven not sitting on the right hand of Jesus?
You preach one thing the preach the opposite… your a a quandary of contridiction and confusion and I also pray for you!
iggy
#124
Ummmm….1 John is Scripture.
Mr. Miano’s words are not. He may be trying to use Scripture, but his personal applications don’t carry that weight, inspiration or infallibility.
Believing or not believing in evolution is not in the Bible.
It’s ok to be a 6 day creationist. it’s just not a condition of or evidence of genuine salvation.
I don’t care about the merits or weaknesses of any of the positions listed by Chris L.
The point is that those understandings of God’s role (see? God’s role) in the formation of the universe are not salvific.
And that’s not the only point…please see #18.
PB, why not just shelve your personal offense over people insulting your friend, bracket it and look at the claims and counterclaims.
I don’t think he’s an idiot. I don’t think he’s not a christian.
On a side note, I don’t know if there are any real “Darwinians” anymore in the scientific community who actually are doing the research/work now…
But that’s more about the internecine discussions of academia and the failure of popular education to keep up with the developments and theories of the past decades.
Anyway…
154:
Hear, hear, Chris L. That’s my take too.
153:
WOTM redux.
Joe,
In Re #21:
I have no egg on my face. I was neither embarrased nor proven wrong. I never said or insinuated that the linked article was written by Ken. It clearly is a link to an article on Ken’s site and as such fits with the pattern which I commented on.
Your comment about Mike Ratliffe and “demigod” makes no sense, and I made no attempt to make any words fit my definition. Can you show me where I did?
My only unhealthy fascination is cheesecake.
We need to install a cliche filter…
And a hypocrisy filter as well…
Of course there’s a pattern. They post and we point out the errors (repeat).
Seriously guys… the list is silly, and Chris L. pointed that out. But he name calling and salvation questioning is ridiculous.
The very thought I have when reading a lot of ADM tripe.
Funny Bell’s supposed universalism comes up again (even though it has NEVER been demonstrated)
Just this afternoon I was reading Yancey and he made reference to Jesus dying for the whole human race – or something sweeping like that… and I immediately thought – in the hands of an angry ADM this is heresy… it’s universalism to be sure!
Been gone from here for a while…reading through some of the posts, I remembered why.
Anyhoooo, interesting this post came the same week of the Shepherds’ Conference where MacArthur preached the opening sermon “Why Every Self-Respecting Calvinist Should Be a Six-Day Creationist.” Was this just another back handed jab at someone other than Spurgeon? 8^)>
Keith, I wish I could have been there.
I went to the TCC instead. It was great, even though they are a bunch of Bible believers who are simple enough to believe God’s Word when it says in the evening and the morning…..yom…..
They are a bunch of Calvinists who scratch each other’s Calvinist ich. Why not a message:
“Where Can we Preachers Repent?”
“Deepening our Prayer Life”.
“Expanding our Love Quotient”
“Self Sacrificial Humility”
“Living out Grace to our Doctrinal Oponents”
That conference is just an exercise in providing opportunities for self righteous “Amens!” and many thousands of dollars are spent.
The Shepherd’s Conference (Arminian style)
Messages:
“Standing Firm for Free Will!”
“Unlimited Atonement”
Etc., etc.
BTW – I am hard pressed to find a more unproductive and useless argument than the 6 day creation debate, especially when ministers should be on their faces before God about purifying their own lives and ministries. The 6 day back and forth is only attractive to doctrinal Bourgousie but has little traction with the real life Proletariat.
ummm…
168:
This isn’t this post about “10 marks”…almost all of which have problems with them?
169:
PB, I don’t think anybody here has a problem with someone being a 6 day creationist.
The problem is when someone elevates it to an evidence/condition of true salvation.
I think it’s lovely that people believe in a literal 6-day creation. Awesome. Have at it.
They’re neither “too simple”, “naive” or “stupid”.
They’re being faithful as they understand it.
That’s not the point, and I think you know that too.
It’s when a 6-day creationist says that such a position is an evidence of true salvation…that’s called adding to the Gospel.
It has nothing to do with the creationism…it could be any other issue added to the gospel.
Pb,your such a hoot…..now go work on your sermon you slacker !(insert smiley face)
170:
Rick, wasn’t it a couple years ago when Johnny Mac did that sermon that bashed the eschatology of those that were on the stage with him?
I think it had some “Self-respecting calvinist…” bit in it’s title.
It’s funny though. It’s not idolatrous to preach sermons about how to maintain a sense of one’s “self-respecting calvinism”.
Just silly.
It’s their own version of the Baptist Identity garbage or even Landmarkism or whatever.
Then again, I wouldn’t want any of these folk preaching about how to be a “self-respecting Christian” either.
You’ll basically get Mr. Miano’s gospel adding…there’s enough of that in the world.
When I was a fresh faced Bible student I might have run to a 6 day creation message or debate. But after 39 years of ministry, after seeing so many people suffer, after visiting third world countries, after watching the church turn from the deeper life, after experiencing heartbreak in my own family, I consider that argument “dung”. (And I mean dung which is as strong as I go. OK – crap! Thanks nc)
nc – You are correct, “self respecting Calvinist” is combining John Calvin with Robert Schueller!
174:
Well said, Rick.
It’s amazing how these men can have such an immature obsession with this issue.
Especially in light of all that you have listed.
It is a crap conversation.
What’s fascinating too is how when people say that it’s not, nor should be, a main issue, then accusations of “looking down on people for their beliefs” get thrown around.
Classic deflection.
175:
haha!
Seriously…
Nope – I’ve not heard anything about the speaking/topics at the Shepherds’ Conference.
Perhaps, this ‘coincidence’ may have just been a work of the Spirit…
HEY KEITH,
How have you been!?!
BTW Chris Pajak stated that everyone that comments here is Pelagian.. and not semi about it…
PB has made no comment on that… but CP’s did state “all” which would include himself….
Anyway, just thought I let you know you have been so labeled…
Now they are out there though… those Calvinist-Pelagians… I have met them… I just did not think that of you until CP pointed it out…
iggy
ADMs are just amazing in their twisted inconsistent thinking.
We know, according to ADMs, that in order to be orthodox you have to believe that all doesn’t mean all, you have to admire Spurgeon who didn’t believe in six day creationism, you have to believe in six day creationism in order to “take God at his word”, but you have to believe that Song of Songs is only a metaphor for Christ and the church.
Talk about trying to nail jello to a wall.
I am really edified and encouraged. Thanks all! If I weren’t a Christian now I sure would want to become one after this read.
Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulnes, gentleness, self control – we are shining examples, all.
Interesting trivia. In Spanish “shit” is “mierd” (sp?). The spanish word for “Wednesday” is “Mierocles” In Columbia if they want to say “Crap” instead of “Shit” they say “Miercoles!!” Some of you guys may want to try this approach sometimes.
BTW can I say “shit” on this site? Can I say it in context and mean it? My mother was a fine Christian woman and I never heard her say a cuss word all my life except for the once in a decade use of “Shit” and whenever she said **that** you had better get out of Dodge. Also I never heard my dad say a cuss word my entire life. Ever. Somehow he got by.
Just for truth in advertising I do say “shit” more than my mother did.
P.S. I feels weird saying “shit” on a Christian blog. . .
I am going to stop saying it, now.
Here is my list (in no particular order):
HOW TO TELL IF YOU MIGHT NOT BE A CHRISTIAN
(1) You have never professed Christ publically.
(2) You do not have a unexplainable love for other professed Christians.
(3) You never experience conviction of sin when you do sin / there is never an internal struggle when you do sin.
(4) You have no desire to commune with other professing Christians.
(5) You have no desire to read God’s word.
(6) You do not experience frequent thoughts of Jesus or have an internal desire to fellowship with Him.
(7) You have no concern for the physical needs of those less fortunate than you.
iggy
I should have clarified that by all I meant all who are pro-.info.
IOW the unregenerate. This would not include me.
Calvin is alive and well!
Jerk!
(8) you say shit instead of scubalon…
I hope we’re not getting into a redux of the “language issue”…
ick.
Chris L: “…perhaps, this ‘coincidence’ may have just been a work of the Spirit.” I think it was predestined for you to post this.
Iggy: I’m doing well. Hope you are the same Just can’t do this forum on a regular basis. Later.
Even more twisted ADM thinking.
Skubalon, the transliterated greek word for shit is a-ok.
But shit, the english word for shit is a big no-no.
Interestingly Darwin did publish some of his works by 1846. Spurgeon was a rampant reader, so I would not be surprised if he did read something by Darwin.
Now I would never say Spurgeon was an evolutionist, but this quote is fascinating as it seems that he may have been an adherent to the “gap theory” or believed in Pre Adamic type of creations.
Meaning that within the scheme of creation, that before this one, God had done others… as it seems he is saying that things happened in the millions of years BEFORE Adam.
Now the only other person I had heard this from was some of the Word of Faith people I had read.
iggy
Keith,
And at times I think you are a very blessed man for it!
iggy
Also, this was a topic that a few had covered before, Darwin states that even Aristotle had influenced him by his writings, as well as Lamarck who was around well before. Lamarck it seems was the one that started the idea that all species descended from other species… again though Spurgeon would never have been an evolutionist, it seems that the thoughts of the era did have some influence on him…
iggy
How much excruiatingly painful sacrifice would it inflict just to avoid words that are understood as colloquially inappropriate? I guess that might be a pinch too inconvenient.
Please do not ever use the word “sacrifice” if even the most simplistic and easiest way to avoid the appearance of evil is too much to sacrifice for the sake of Christ. Go ahead and use those words and explain the linguistic nuances in order to justify their use. Even the basics, regardless of how they are viewed transgenerationally, are too much to surrender for the sake of Christ.
#186…is a joke….satire….silly BoPeep.
Johnboy,
I wasn’t referring to #186. I was referring to your previous usage of skubalon as a synonym for shit.
And #186 isn’t satire. Do you know what satire is?
Are there things that are weights and not technically sin that you guys avoid for Christ’s sake?
Why would I avoid something that isn’t sin for “Christ’s sake”? What does that even mean?
You might as well ask me to keep kosher just because.
PB & Bo – if the school-yard antics/name-calling don’t cease, you’ll both be put on moderation until it does. It’s sad that half of the comments on this thread are your petty back-and-forth squabbling/name-calling.
OK so my point seems to be missed…. Spurgeon for all his rants against the “modernists” seems to be very much a part of the “modernist” ideals with this quote. It seems that Spurgeon was a reader with a huge library, and in that self educated, that he did accept a few modernist ideas, though he may not held to them all his life.
I just thing that for all the times I see Spurgeon used on level of Scripture that this quote would seem to be truly avoided by the “Spurgeon = Scripture” crowd… (and we all know who they are!)
iggy
And isn’t it funny that PB states Bo does not exist yet still talks to him?
There are loads of people in insane asylums that talk to people who are not there… I remember a guy who used to steal my cigarettes, pet invisible dogs and talk to the post card rack at one place I worked… yep he needed meds…
So if Bo does not exist, the PB must need meds…. ’splains a lot to me!
iggy
#198 thanks, Chris
#201