This can only be brief, but it only needs to be. Here, Slice says: “Shack Author Denies Substitutionary Atonement.” I’m sorry to say, that this is simply not true. What the author denied is the Penal version of Substitionary atonement. The author of The Shack specifically states that he believes in some form of substitution and quotes 2 Corinthians 5:19 in support of it. It is simply not true that the author denied substitution. What he denied is the Reformed Calvinist version of substitution. What he denies is the penal version of the substitution. I think the author of Slice needs to correct the title of her post because Young specifically states that he believes in some form of substitution.

Now, just a couple of finer points. The person conducting the interview with Young states at the end a whole list of people, one who even did one whole sermon on The Shack that included ten whole points (!; talk about avoiding the Gospel!) (and others like Driscoll, Mohler as if anyone outside the SBC cares what Mohler thinks; as if we are not people with minds and can think on our own without these all powerful guardians; as if Driscoll is always right and never wrong and the ADM’s are always for Driscoll), who are ‘opposed’ to the book The Shack. What they didn’t do is include a whole list of people, theologians and preachers alike, who are not opposed to The Shack and there are many. The interview itself was little more than the interviewer trying his damnedest to convince Young that there is a literal hell (even after Young stated that he believed in Hell as literal). Young was gracious, but he was in the lion’s den. The interviewer was just beside himself that Young denied penal substitution is central to the Gospel. When Young tried to point out that there is actually great debate about this right now, the interviewer didn’t seem to care too much.

Young stated unequivocally, “I believe the only hope for any of us is Jesus.” That’s pretty clear to me. However, denial of the penal substitution is not a denial of the Gospel. It is a denial of a particular interpretation of the Gospel. There are many, many, many theologians who deny that penal substitution is the ‘core’ of the Gospel. Consider the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:

1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

9For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

The author of Slice needs to correct her post to reflect the truth because as it stands, it is simply wrong. Again, a denial of penal substitution is not the same as a denial of the Gospel. It is only in the minds of Reformed Calvinists and The Shack haters that penal substitution is the center of the Gospel. I don’t think you will find it in the Scripture.*

*The author of Slice does have it correct in her post, but not in her title. The title is misleading. The rest stands on it’s own as a criticism of what one considers ‘gospel.’

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124 Comments(+Add)

1   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 18th, 2009 at 5:18 pm

The Shack, Slice, and the Truth.

Strang bedfellows indeed. Was it intentional that “Slice” comes between the “Shack” and the “Truth”?

2   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
March 18th, 2009 at 5:18 pm

Would this be a case of “penal” envy? :wink:

3   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
March 18th, 2009 at 5:19 pm

Rick,

Funny as one reads the title it almost reads as if The Shack and Slice are opposed to the Truth… too funny!

iggy

4   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
March 18th, 2009 at 5:28 pm

Yes, maybe I should rewrite my title to more clearly reflect the ‘truth’ of what is contained therein. Haha. Thanks iggy, you ruined my day. 8)

5   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
March 18th, 2009 at 5:31 pm

Haha. Thanks iggy, you ruined my day.

It’s a gift I suffer from and for! :lol:

6   John Hughes    
March 18th, 2009 at 8:21 pm

No unbiased student of Biblical history can deny there are several legitimate interpretations of the type of substitution effected by Christ on Calvary held by men of good faith. I personally see that the investigation into the Lord’s sacrifice on Calvary is infinately robust enough to embrace many meanings whithout even beginning to plumb the debts of this tremendous gift. But given the Lord’s title: The Lamb Who Takes Away the Sins of the World” and it’s direct correlation with the Mosiac sacrificial system (especially in the book of Hebrews, for example), the theory of penal substitution is, to me, the most vigorous, but in the end still remains only one of the many facets of this glorious gift. However, to deny someone’s orthodoxy based strictly on their theory of the atonement, or worse, that they deny the Gospel because they don’t accept your personal interpretation is sad.

I am no friend of “The Shack” or of it’s author’s theology, but this, to me, is no place to plant my banner in the sand.

7   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 18th, 2009 at 8:25 pm

There is only one view that is necessary for Biblical accuracy. Has Jesus of Nazareth paid for the sins of the world on the cross?

I hold to the penal view, but when I was born again in 1975 I would have no idea about any of these atonement theories.

“I personally see that the investigation into the Lord’s sacrifice on Calvary is infinately robust enough to embrace many meanings whithout even beginning to plumb the debts of this tremendous gift.”

I wish I had said that.

8   chris    
March 19th, 2009 at 4:47 am

I am no friend of “The Shack” or of it’s author’s theology, but this, to me, is no place to plant my banner in the sand.

Do tell…What is the author’s theology?

9   chris    
March 19th, 2009 at 5:00 am

*Thread Jacking Warning*

What he denied is the Reformed Calvinist version of substitution. What he denies is the penal version of the substitution.

Actually I would say that most Reformed Calvinists have a limited understanding of what Calvin actually believed. As I have often heard most people are more Calvin than Calvin was. It could be argued that Calvin believed that penal substitution had a limited view of God while Christus Victor also was limiting to the nature of God.

In short, since neither as God alone could he feel death, nor as man alone could he overcome it, he coupled human nature with divine that to atone for sin he might submit the weakness of the one to death; and that, wrestling with death by the power of the other nature, he might win victory for us. (Institutes, II.12.3)

10   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 19th, 2009 at 7:00 am

“Do tell…What is the author’s theology?”

I do not really care. It’s almost gotten to the point that I am affected positively concerning most anything Ingrid is against. The greatest gospel ministry on earth is certainly not the electronic words of a self righteous desk sitter, it is the faith heros that teach and preach and minister throughout the world in places to which that no one desires to go except those who hear God’s voice.

Those who preach the gospel, love others like Christ, minister to the earthly needs of the poor, and become God’s living conduit for redemption exhibit more profound discernment in one hour than many whose entire “ministries” consist of a literary dripping facet of hatred and judgment.

You want discernment? Cast your eyes upon the fields and discern the color white and become a humble laborer that denies yourself and sacrifices your life for the sake of others. The earth contains the bones of many followers of Jesus who could never argue the different views of the atonement but whose lives shined forth that cross much brighter than most who think that doctrinal arguing is being faithful to projecting that cross.

Many who espouse the penal substitionary view seem to think they must spread that penality upon sinners when their own theology says it was finished on the Lord Jesus.

11   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 19th, 2009 at 7:40 am

Only the astounding carnality of man could see the cross, be changed by its power, and use it as proof of his own doctrinal integrity in the theological cocktail party known as the internet. And even though I believe the penal view, I admit that view has to be arrived at through piecing different sections of the Scripture together and not by reading even a short Pauline treatise in one of the epistles. What does that tell us?

The most prominent doctrinal discussion by far in the New Testament was the works vs. faith discussion. And so any believer who teaches the complete sufficiency of Christ’s cross, regardless of the nuanced particulars, teaches the cross. In a strange way, some have constructed these doctrinal nuances as a kind of works theology.

Only the twisted hubris of the depraved nature could ever use the penal view of the cross as a stepping stone to reaching a self righteous platform of doctrinal integrity. Our Lord laid down His rights on that very cross for those who opposed Him, and yet we discard that attitude and wield the nuances of our theology as battering rams rather than humble expressions of our Biblical understandings which should be communicated more through our lives than through our words.

Defending truth does not always equate to living truth. Many times verbally defending truth can translate into dismantling truth simply through the carnal methodlogy used in its defense.

12   John Hughes    
March 19th, 2009 at 8:06 am

Chris. I have not read this book. I am wary in geneneral of any fictional literary device that places extra-biblical words in the mouth of God, because these words in the final analysis, are the words of man (usually with an agenda) and not God. This is dangerous ground. I think the author’s representation of the Trinity is problematic . I also find the fervent defense of this controversial work very interesting from an observational point of view. It obviously resonates deeply with many people. They seem to be having some sort of need met with this book that they are not finding from Scripture directly and to me that is also problematic. I’m not a book burner so I say “have at it”.

13   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
March 19th, 2009 at 8:27 am

They seem to be having some sort of need met with this book that they are not finding from Scripture directly and to me that is also problematic.

Maybe it’s the opposite. People have been hearing so much non-biblical thought from the Christian establishment, that whenever someone opens their eyes to the great story that actually is biblical, it’s like a breath of fresh air…

I must admit, I haven’t read the book yet either, but from the reviews I’ve read, there’s nothing that seems that egregious to me. Two scholars who I respect greatly, Ben Witherington and Greg Boyd, have given it favorable reviews. So it seems to me that the book has mainly offended those in the Reformed camp, who spend most of their lives being offended.

14   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
March 19th, 2009 at 8:42 am

I loved “The Shack”…loved it.

15   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
March 19th, 2009 at 9:16 am

Phil,

#13: !!

jerry

16   chris    
March 19th, 2009 at 9:45 am

I am wary in geneneral of any fictional literary device that places extra-biblical words in the mouth of God, because these words in the final analysis, are the words of man (usually with an agenda) and not God.

As am I; but I almost got laughed out of church for suggesting that, although I love his work, Chronicles of Narnia is not the mea culpa of our faith. Nor his “Lord of the Rings”, or “Pilgrims Progress”. The list could go on and on.

I long for the day when we would acknowledge that, as Calvin and Luther did, that God uses ALL of creation to call people to Himself. Including human (so they think) invention.

17   chris    
March 19th, 2009 at 9:49 am

I think the author’s representation of the Trinity is problematic

Do tell…What is the authors representation of the Trinity?

18   Chris Rosebrough    http://www.extremetheology.com
March 19th, 2009 at 9:57 am

Sorry but Penal Substitution is a non-negotiable part of the gospel.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the PUNISHMENT that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Young’s view outright contradicts the scriptures. He has a false gospel.

19   chris    
March 19th, 2009 at 10:05 am

Wow! Thanks Chris for joining the conversation. I mean I was really confused about the atonement until you swooped and cleared it up.

Really I’ve never even considered Isaiah 53 in trying to understand the atonement. Wow! Just great! I’m so free now.

*removal of tongue from cheek

20   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
March 19th, 2009 at 10:06 am

Situated in the proper narrative context, there is a way in which penal substitution makes sense. It makes sense when you consider Jesus as the representation of Israel. He took upon Him the punishment that was due Israel for their disobedience and breaking of covenant. But to extend this view to cover all humanity is hard to justify from a Scriptural context.

If anything, Jesus’ ministry and the rest of the New Testament is trying to get the point across that God is embracing all humanity – not that He’s angry at them.

To say that a theory that wasn’t even developed fully until the 19th century is a “non-negotiable part of the gospel” is simply laughable.

21   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 19th, 2009 at 10:12 am

I believe substitution is the non-negotiable element. The Passover Lamb model is accurate, however most people, including myself, are converted without the doctrinal understandings we are discussing. A reading of the sermons of Peter and Paul in Acts seems to be unclear as to that aspect of the gospel.

Does one have to believe in the penal view to be saved?

22   chris    
March 19th, 2009 at 10:14 am

Situated in the proper narrative context, there is a way in which penal substitution makes sense.

Exactly…but just to add to the conversation. Jesus called himself a ransom (Mark 10:45). So we have prophecy calling Jesus the punished and we have Jesus calling Himself a ransom. That’s two theories right there.

Now I’m confused again. Man if I could just get an ADM to step in and clear it up for me.

23   chris    
March 19th, 2009 at 10:16 am

Does one have to believe in the penal view to be saved?

Only on Tuesdays if your elect and you believe in transubstantiation. Other than that you’re fine.

24   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 19th, 2009 at 10:25 am

Let me get this straight:

The penal view is the only gospel

BUT

Salvation through baptism isn’t adding to the gospel.

OK – got it!! :roll:

25   Chris Rosebrough    http://www.extremetheology.com
March 19th, 2009 at 10:29 am

Tell ya what…

I’m going to BELIEVE what the Biblical text actually says.

It says that Jesus was “pierced for our transgressions” “crushed for our iniquities” and that the “PUNISHMENT (musar) that brought us peace was upon Him”.

I’m going to BELIEVE the text. It was after all, God-Breathed and inspired BY the Holy Spirit. Isaiah 53 IS the Word of God. That means the God the Holy Spirit choose the word PUNISHMENT to be written down in this text. I’ll take the lazy and simple minded approach a just believe the text.

You all, on the other hand, can find some nuanced philosophical POMO reasonings to deny what the Word of God says and deceive yourselves into believing that its okay to do so. After all, God turns a blind eye to those who deny His word and teach false doctrine and exalt their own reasoning over and above His Word. We all know that God is nothing more than a senile old grandpa who turns a blind eye to our little rebellions and likes to give out butter scotch candies to his cute little creative bratty grand children. Right?

26   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 19th, 2009 at 10:35 am

“We all know that God is nothing more than a senile old grandpa who turns a blind eye to our little rebellions and likes to give out butter scotch candies to his cute little creative bratty grand children.”

You are misrepresenting God with that statement. :cool:

“After all, God turns a blind eye to those who deny His word and teach false doctrine and exalt their own reasoning over and above His Word.”

Do you mean like people who allow women to take authority over male elders and rebuke them publicly? Or those who refuse to believe Jn.3:16 and must add baptism? Yes, I agree with your assessment.

27   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
March 19th, 2009 at 10:41 am

You all, on the other hand, can find some nuanced philosophical POMO reasonings to deny what the Word of God says and deceive yourselves into believing that its okay to do so. After all, God turns a blind eye to those who deny His word and teach false doctrine and exalt their own reasoning over and above His Word. We all know that God is nothing more than a senile old grandpa who turns a blind eye to our little rebellions and likes to give out butter scotch candies to his cute little creative bratty grand children. Right?

When you lack the ability to defend your supposed point, simply attack. Classy…

Seriously, saying you take Scripture seriously is meaningless if you aren’t going to take the time and effort to learn what the authors were originally trying to say.

The ironic thing is that you seem to have no problem believing that God wants to punish everyone, but you can’t bring yourself to believe that He may actually love everyone and want to reconcile them to Himself. I believe that is a perversion of who God has revealed Himself to be in Scriptures.

Psalm 145:8,9
8 The LORD is gracious and compassionate,
slow to anger and rich in love.

9 The LORD is good to all;
he has compassion on all he has made.

28   chris    
March 19th, 2009 at 10:43 am

I’m going to BELIEVE what the Biblical text actually says.

As am I. Mark 10:45 let’s start there.

You all, on the other hand, can find some nuanced philosophical POMO reasonings to deny what the Word of God says and deceive yourselves into believing that its okay to do so.

Nuanced? POMO? …Really?

Saying that penal doesn’t encapsulate all that Jesus did on the cross and that it is not the only historical or biblical view of the atonement is “nuanced” and “POMO”?

So much for research!

*shakes head*

29   Chris Rosebrough    http://www.extremetheology.com
March 19th, 2009 at 10:50 am

chris,

The topic is William Young. He DENIES penal substitution. That is FAR DIFFERENT than saying that it Penal Substitution is one aspect of the atonement and the gospel.

Even I believe that there is more to the Atonement than Penal substitution. But, Penal Substitution IS the heart of the atonement. To deny that is to deny God’s Word and to twist the gospel into a false gospel.

30   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 19th, 2009 at 10:50 am

Get this straight – I am either elect or I am not, and all the orthodox scoldings cannot change that at all. Be still and watch it all unfold and quit acting like God needs you, He doesn’t!!

End of story. :cool:

Don’t worry – be happy!!

31   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 19th, 2009 at 10:54 am

Part of the Father’s punishment on the Son was for the sin of not believing in the penal aspect of the gospel. Unless speaking against the penal view is the unpardonable sin.

32   Chris Rosebrough    http://www.extremetheology.com
March 19th, 2009 at 10:56 am

Phil,

Quit psychologizing God and stick to the text.

The TEXT (aka The Bible, The Word of God, The Holy Scriptures) SAYS, “he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the PUNISHMENT that brought us peace was upon him”

That IS PENAL SUBSTITUTION.

I believe the text because it IS the Word of God. If anyone knows why and what Jesus was doing on the cross it would be God. God says it was Penal Substitution. If you deny this then you are at odds with God and have made yourself into your own god.

33   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
March 19th, 2009 at 10:56 am

From what I can tell, Young is denying the version of penal substitutionary atonement presented by some Christians which presents God as simply wanting to kill sinners. Or as John Piper described it, “Jesus is holding the Father back from obliterating sinners” (that’s quoted from memory from a Piper sermon in which I was in the audience). I reject that as well.

The Father isn’t some sort of tyrant in heaven looking to smite sinners. He is Yahweh, the God who walks with us and fights for us. That doesn’t mean He is a cosmic Santa Claus, but it does mean He is a loving Father. And like all good fathers, He disciplines those He loves. To talk about God doling out punishment without presenting His love first is a distortion at best and a lie at worst.

34   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 19th, 2009 at 11:00 am

“The Father isn’t some sort of tyrant in heaven looking to smite sinners.”

I believe the Father would smite all of us, and only altered by the cross. There are millions of sinners who have been saved without any penal understanding of the cross, hence the phrase “by grace through faith”.

God punished His Son in our place. That is waht I believe.

35   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
March 19th, 2009 at 11:01 am

The TEXT (aka The Bible, The Word of God, The Holy Scriptures) SAYS, “he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the PUNISHMENT that brought us peace was upon him”

That IS PENAL SUBSTITUTION.

And who is “us” in that Scripture? The Jewish people, that’s who. The book of Isaiah wasn’t written to 21st century Americans, despite your belief that it is all about you (hey, even Rick Warren knows that :-) ). So enough with this crap that just because you quote a verse and think you know what it means somehow means you “take Scripture seriously.”

You’re just making it say what you want it to say.

36   Chris Rosebrough    http://www.extremetheology.com
March 19th, 2009 at 11:08 am

Phil,

Really?

Jesus only died for jews? He was ONLY Punished for the transgressions of the Jewish People.

Well then you and I aren’t saved.

Best of luck to you. As for me, since my sins have not been atoned for, I’m going to go party like its 1999. I need to have some fun now while I still can.

37   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 19th, 2009 at 11:13 am

The substitutionary aspect, along with the redemption apsect, of the cross is the core. I believe in the penal view, wholeheartedly, however I cannot say those who do not understand that are preaching a false gospel. That is legalism.

38   Bo Diaz    
March 19th, 2009 at 11:14 am

Virtually everything ADMs write is a false dichotomy. As Chris R here demonstrates, his entire thesis on every one of his comments here boil down to either you believe exactly as he believes or you don’t believe the scriptures are true.

And its hard to co-exist within a community or even have a conversation with someone’s entire motivation for interaction is a fallacy.

39   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
March 19th, 2009 at 11:19 am

Jesus only died for jews? He was ONLY Punished for the transgressions of the Jewish People.

In some sense, yes. We are all grafted into to the Jewish story, if you believe Romans 11. So, under the theory penal substitution, He died to atone for the past, present, and future sins the Jews committed in their covenant relationship with Christ, and by doing so, opened up that covenant for all.

That is why I don’t think the Penal Substitution view is robust enough. It can be understood in its proper context, but it becomes a more complicated explanation.

I think it’s much more easier to describe the Gospel in a universal sense and explain the narrative of Scripture through the Christus Victor model which is grounded in the simple premise presented in 1 John 3:8:

The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

40   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 19th, 2009 at 11:22 am

“As Chris R here demonstrates, his entire thesis on every one of his comments here boil down to either you believe exactly as he believes or you don’t believe the scriptures are true.”

Bo – I know many fundamentalist Baptists who would not believe Chris R. is even saved. He has his doubts about some here as well. How can we have a conversation when we do not even consider each other brothers in Christ?

41   Bo Diaz    
March 19th, 2009 at 11:30 am

Rick,
There is that too. I would hope, however, we could have, at the least, conversation about scripture with those who aren’t Christians.

But, when you begin with the assumption that anyone who doesn’t agree with you doesn’t believe the scriptures are true, that shuts down any real communication and turns it into nothing more than a self-righteous lecture, as Chris R has.

42   Chris Rosebrough    http://www.extremetheology.com
March 19th, 2009 at 11:43 am

Phil,

A Difference that Makes No Difference is No Difference At All.

You cannot read Isaiah 53 and say that it only applies to Genetic Jews. Being Genetically Jewish isn’t what saves. Faith in Christ saves. Gentiles are grafted into Israel.

Rom. 9:6   It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”

Even if you were to interpret Isaiah 53 as Jesus being PUNISHED ONLY for true Israel. That Punishment applies to ALL who have faith in Christ because they ARE true Israel.

That is why Paul could write these words to the GENTILES in Corinth, “For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died FOR OUR SINS according to the Scriptures (1Cor. 15:3)”

43   jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
March 19th, 2009 at 11:45 am

I think there is something to be said about propitiation. Young could be wrong. I am more concerned with the fact that he is automatically a heretic because of it. That I don’t agree with at all. Via blackberry

44   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
March 19th, 2009 at 11:47 am

A Difference that Makes No Difference is No Difference At All.

It makes a difference because it means that all of God’s wrath towards Israel’s sin (and ours) was satisfied on the cross. He isn’t looking at sinners through the lens of how they deserve punishment, but rather through the blood of Christ. Christ isn’t holding back the father from killing us – He is extending the love of the Father to us.

What I’m saying isn’t anything new. I’m saying Jesus died for the Elect. I just believe that everyone is part of the Elect now. Whether or not a person chooses to live in that reality, though, is another thing altogether.

45   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
March 19th, 2009 at 11:51 am

CR: Sorry but Penal Substitution is a non-negotiable part of the gospel……Young’s view outright contradicts the scriptures. He has a false gospel.

RA: NO! I will agree that you should indeed be sorry — that much is true. But I object most strenuously to the rest of your statement.

YOU (and others), IMHO, are actually the ones dangerously close to preaching a false Gospel because YOU (and others) are putting extra conditions and extra beliefs on the pure Gospel of grace.

“Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures…” (1 Cor. 15:1-4).

THAT is the Gospel, which you seem to now be encrusting with additional conditions, views, beliefs, perspectives, and subjective understandings of debatable issues upon which Christians can legitimately disagree and still love Jesus Christ as one of his followers. Such a position sets you and your fellow ODM heresy-hunters disturbingly close to crossing into the realm of a “cult” from a theological perspective (the ODM community is already there from a psychological perspective, IMHO). Now, this statement from you suggest, to a most troubling degree, at least in my opinion, that the ODMs have indeed become a theological cult of sorts — i.e., in a rather nuanced and new way.

I warn you with all humility and love, using Christ’s condemnation to the Pharisees:

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.”

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous” (Matthew 23:23-29).

Herein is exactly why a thoughtful argument can now be made against the ODM community as being part of the “Synagogue of Satan,” and why SOME of these people MIGHT not be saved at all — i.e., given their list of subjective conditions/marks of true salvation (or the true Gospel), which are looking more like a works-based model where the Gospel is being attached to something other than the life, death, resurrection of Jesus Christ (e.g., “the penal substitution THEORY is a non-negotiable part of the Gospel”).

If this is the case, then another warning would apply from Christ: “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to” (Matt. 23:13).

THE PENAL SUBSTITUTION THEORY

As for the Penal Substitution theory, there are, according to the readily available Evangelical Dictionary of Theology (Elwell), at least SIX theories on the atonement — the Penal Substitution Theory is but one of them. The others are:

- The Subjective View or Moral Influence
- The Atonement As Victory
- Anselm’s Satisfaction Theory
- Governmental Theory
- Sacrifice

Each has its strengths and weaknesses. And, of course, Some are more weak than others. For example, the Subjective View or Moral Influence is very weak and when considered thoughtfully, makes no sense.

Now, a person would certainly be justified in voicing an opinion in favor of one of the theories being more correct and/or more logical from their perspective, and therefore, the more sound explanation to them of HOW the atonement worked. Fine. One might even go so far as to say that one appears to be more biblically supportable than others and has a fully explanation of what apprently took place. Excellent. But it is the height of unbiblical commentary, in my opinion, to say that any single THEORY is actually “a non-negotiable part of the gospel.”

WRONG. That is adding to the purity of the Gospel as outlined in 1 Corinthians by Paul.

As for all of these theories, Leon Morris Ph.D–Cambridge University, Formerly Principle, Ridley College, Melbourne, Australia–notes in that aforementioned Evangelical Dictionary of Theology:

“All the above views, in their own way, recognize that the atonement is vast and deep. There is nothing quite like it. . . . the NT sees the sinner lost, as suffering in hell, as perishing, as cast into outer darkness, and more. An atonement that rectifies all this must necessarily be complex. So we need all the vivid concepts . . . . And we need all the theories. Each draws attention to an important aspect of our salvation and we dare not surrender any. But we are small-minded sinners and the atonement is great and vast. We should not expect that our theories will ever explain it fully.” (p. 102).

Small-minded, indeed. I will not stand by and watch someone who has falsely claimed to have a “professional opinion” as an apologist (see Chris Rosebrough’s comment about himself at phoenix preacher, Feb 3rd, 2008 at 8:24 am) distort the purity of the gospel.

Richard Abanes
[Note to Legal: The above statements were made an an expression of opinion and fall under the relam of Freedom of Speech]

46   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
March 19th, 2009 at 11:57 am

By the way, back to the original point of the article, saying that a person must believe in the Penal Subsitution view of the atonement to be saved is simply ridiculous. I guess Paul was wrong when he told the Roman jailer, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

That silly Paul…

47   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 19th, 2009 at 12:04 pm

Substitution is the non-negotiable. By the way, Calvinists limit (quanitfy) that substitutionary aspect of the gospel. That may be considered a false gospel.

48   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
March 19th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

CR: Penal Substitution IS the heart of the atonement. To deny that is to deny God’s Word and to twist the gospel into a false gospel.

RA: That’s not what Paul says (see above). The heart of the Gospel, which you seem to have forgotten, is JESUS CHRIST and his death on the cross.

The heart of the Gospel has nothing to do with academic theories associated with the ins-n-outs of precisely HOW God did what he did through Christ — no matter how much you might want to link the two together.

Again, I say, as Paul declared:

“I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures…” (1 Cor. 15:1-4).

It’s all about JESUS!!! He is not only the chief cornerstone (Eph. 2:20), but also the very foundation of the church (1 Cor. 3:11). And even in the elementary things of the Gospel listed in Hebrews 6:1-3, we have a foundation of:

- repentance from acts that lead to death,
- faith in God,
- instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

You see anything in there about the “Penal Substitution” theory? I don’t.

You are, in my opinion protected by Freedom of Speech, adding to the pure Gospel of salvation by grace alone by faith alone in him who dies for us on the cross.

The “Penal Substitution” THEORY is NOT part of the Gospel, in my opinion, which is protected by Freedom of Speech.

Now, Chris, since you have shown yourself to be rather known in the past for asking to see EXACT statements in the Bible, please produce for me a passage that states:

“Gospel…I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and the atonement was accomplished, saith the Lord, using what will in 2,000 years be known as the Penal Substitution Theory that will reveal the deep truths of the atoning sacrifice.”

My Bible seems to be missing that verse.

Richard Abanes
[Note to Legal: The above statements were made as an expression of opinion and fall under the protection of Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion]

49   jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
March 19th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

#45 and 46 seem to put a nail in the coffin of Chris R.

Jerry

50   Chris Rosebrough    http://www.extremetheology.com
March 19th, 2009 at 12:23 pm

Phil,

Again the TEXT of Isaiah couldn’t be clearer. Christ’s death on the Cross was PENAL.

You’re attempts at limiting the Penal Aspect of Christ’s atonement just don’t wash out. Jesus was PUNISHED for our sins on the cross and that PUNISHMENT for sins was not limited to only those who are Genetically Jewish.

I’m sticking to the text.

If you OUTRIGHT Deny Penal Substitution then you are twisting God’s Word and are changing and twisting the content of the Atonement and the Gospel itself.

Think of it this way.

Mormons claim to believe in Jesus. The problem is that the Jesus they believe in is definitionally different than the real Jesus. They believe in a FALSE Jesus.

A person who claims to be a Christian AND openly denies and reinterprets the clear words of scripture regarding Christ’s atoning work on the cross is doing the same thing that the Mormon is doing but they are doing in regard to the Gospel itself. That person is redefining the gospel and what Christ accomplished on the cross and has set up a false idol and a false gospel.

Believing in a False Jesus cannot save you and believing in a false Gospel cannot save you.

Again I affirm that there are more aspects to the atonement than the Penal Aspect. That does not in any way diminish the VERY REAL FACT that God’s Word CLEARLY tells us that Christ’s death on the Cross for our sins was Penal.

51   Chris Rosebrough    http://www.extremetheology.com
March 19th, 2009 at 12:24 pm

Richard,

Sorry I can’t play today.

But, I’ll take a rain check.

Pax

52   John Hughes    
March 19th, 2009 at 12:31 pm

RA: Excellent comments.

Note to Self: Must get keyboard fixed. Noticed unusual delays when typing the above.

53   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 19th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

There are some things that seem to be outside the penal substitutionary view. Jesus words, “Father forgive them…” seem to place blame on those who participated in the crucifixion rather than the Father. Jesus own parable about the land owner sending His Son and the workers murdering Him also seems curious in the penal context.

Others as well.

54   Bo Diaz    
March 19th, 2009 at 12:37 pm

Chris R,
You’re adding to the gospel. Your definition of what makes for a false gospel is simply not supported by scripture. You have taken a single line of messianic prophecy and created a theology on which hinges all of salvation. Unfortunately, for your position, (but fortunately for the vast majority of the saints) the scriptures don’t do the same.

As Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4:

I passed on to you what was most important and what had also been passed on to me. Christ died for our sins, just as the Scriptures said. He was buried, and he was raised from the dead on the third day, just as the Scriptures said.

55   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
March 19th, 2009 at 1:10 pm

BO: Chris R, You’re adding to the gospel. Your definition of what makes for a false gospel is simply not supported by scripture.

RA: Thank you. Now, some thoughts for everyone:

“How to Avoid Becoming a Cult Victim” . . . when you add to the gospel, you change the gospel. The addition of Mosaic regulations was in the nature of a complete repudiation of the all sufficiency of Christ’s redemption. So whether as restrictive legalism, permissive liberalism, or cultic perversion, any teaching that adds to or takes away from God’s revealed truth is a distortion of the gospel and perverts the nature and the work of Christ.” (Pastor Stephen Felker Swift Creek Baptist Church, February 22, 2004).

“The moment we add to the gospel message (as Paul is at such pains to point out in Galatians), we have a different “gospel message” (which of course is no gospel at all). . . . There is not a cult or a sect out there which does not teach Justification by Works! And Justification by Works is rightly considered an age-old Christian heresy because it renders the gospel virtually meaningless. The particular form of ‘works’ will vary according to the group” (Museltof Countercult and Apologetics, UK, “Rooting Armstrongism out of Ex-Worldwide Church of God Folk”).

“Like all the cults I mentioned and every other cult in the past and today, the cultists want to change the fundamentals of the gospel of Jesus and/or add to that gospel additional rules, regulations, and things that one must ‘know’ are true. . . . When cults add to the gospel, primarily by adding works that one must accomplish, rituals that one must perform, or even knowledge that one must know, they attack and deny the sufficiency of Christ” (Todd Leroy, “1 John 2:7-29 Bible Study Leading,” http://www.disposablechristian.org/)

This is but a small sampling of what is recognized as the standard line that must NOT be crossed when it comes to the purity and simplicity of the Gospel.

Ironically, even an ODM wesbsite states the following:

“…to add to the Gospel destroys the work on the cross. Sabbatarians need to quit majoring in the minor issues and major on the major ones, the saving power of Christ crucified for salvation and the Christian life under grace. It will matter little which day you worshipped on, if your life did not start or end in the cross.”

Might I re-arrange this a bit in order to better fit our ongoing discussion?

“…to add to the Gospel destroys the work on the cross. Chris Rosebrough needs to quit majoring in the minor issues and major on the major ones, the saving power of Christ crucified for salvation and the Christian life under grace. It will matter little which man-made atonement THEORY you believed was the most biblical, if your life did not start or end in the cross.”

CR: Sorry I can’t play today.

RA: I am not playing. This is deadly serious.

You (and others) are dividing the Body of Christ, in my personal opinion (protected by Freedom of Speech), much to the hurt of brothers and sisters in Christ — and you seem to revel in it, from what I can see.

Richard Abanes

56   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
March 19th, 2009 at 1:18 pm

Substitution is the non-negotiable. By the way, Calvinists limit (quanitfy) that substitutionary aspect of the gospel. That may be considered a false gospel.

Well, I would say Jesus is non-negotiable. But I agree with the rest of your thought, though.

I just think that once we start saying certain doctrines are requirements for salvation, we start heading down a dangerous path. It is Jesus who saves us, and it only through knowing Him that we have any hope. It’s not adherence to certain doctrines, even though there are some beliefs that Scripture makes evident.

57   nc    
March 19th, 2009 at 1:21 pm

to deny PSA is a problem.
to make PSA the heart of the Gospel is a problem.

why not say that PSA is part of a cluster or constellation of legitimate ways of speaking about the Gospel and that cluster is non-hierarchical?

Why not just say to dismiss any portion of this atonement theory cluster is to lose something?

why, after years and years of imbalance and fixation on one part of that cluster, is asking for balance a rejection of the gospel and making my own god?

I don’t care about the Shack guy, the Shack book or any of that crap.

What I just described above is what is happening in the wider discussion about atonement.

It sucks.

58   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 19th, 2009 at 1:22 pm

Phil – I agree, however if you teach that Jesus may not have died in YOUR place, that is a false gospel.

59   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
March 19th, 2009 at 1:24 pm

Chris R.

I’m going to BELIEVE what the Biblical text actually says.

Then you go on a quote only part of an incredible passage that not only talks of Christ being punished… but of his suffering….

Isaiah 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the PUNISHMENT that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Yet in the very verse you quote it also has so much more than “penal substitutions” and in fact, you have give much weight to all the people you are arguing with.

Isaiah 53: 4. Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. 5. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. 8. By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. 9. He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. 10. Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11. After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light [of life] and be satisfied ; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. 12. Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Now the real issue Chris R is that you are arguing against the word… “just”. No one I know of argues against the penal substitution… only in how it is presented (as in the case of Brian McLaren and how people twist his words like pretzels)… There maybe one or two.

Yet by quoting this verse you have actually built the strongest case for “Christus Victor” or that of the “Suffering Servant”.

Now, again you seem to not like the word “just” but the word just does not mean “excludes” but means “yes that is true but even more that that”.

Now what is so very weird in what you are arguing is that as I Google “Christus Victor, I see there are a ton of Lutheran churches that are called themselves by that name… so I am wondering why if everyone is so wrong and that it is “only” PS, why you are not out cleaning your own denomination out first? It also seems very hypocritical to be out casting stones at others when you seem to be part of an organization that very much carries the very teaching you dismiss.

So learn about the word “just” as so many use it… it is not a bad word… then go back to your own congregations and tell them how wrong they are for teaching anything other than PS and then come back and tell all of us who see a much bigger and wonderful picture of who Jesus did on the Cross than you seem to that we are all wrong.

What we take away from the cross we diminish it.. what we add to the cross we diminish it also.

iggy

60   Bo Diaz    
March 19th, 2009 at 1:25 pm

NC sums up the situation very well.

61   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
March 19th, 2009 at 1:26 pm

Phil – I agree, however if you teach that Jesus may not have died in YOUR place, that is a false gospel.

I think Jesus died for everyone but Calvinists… ;-)

62   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
March 19th, 2009 at 1:53 pm

Rick,

I agree that Limited Atonement may be very close to diminishing the works of Christ on the Cross as it limits the power of the “penal” substitution itself.

The interesting thing is that most at the time of JEsus would most likely not equated atonement with “penal” as atonement in the OT did not give life. They covered sin… JEsus “took away our sin” but not just ours “but also the whole worlds”. So for someone to state that it is “only” and no other view is right… especially that of Calvin or Lutheran persuasion… means that person never has really looked at what those men taught.

Luther has in his writings a strong sense of Christus Victor thus why so many Lutheran Churches bear that as part of their name. So to me much of what Chris R states is a complete joke as it only shows his ignorance of his own denomination. Someone else already quoted what Calvin taught… so I guess then according to the “PS” only proponents, Luther and Calvin were also wrong.

What truly is exposed in this exchange is the serious lack of historical perspective that so many ODM’s suffer from.

iggy

63   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 19th, 2009 at 1:58 pm

There is so much mystery that must be ignored to place such things as indispensible to the understanding of the gospel. Who can explain the “Father and Son” relationship when the name “Son” seems to indicate offspring but yet the Son is eternal?

And those who play so fast and loose with obvious words such as “all” and “world” are such sticklers with other verses. It does not make any sense, especially considering the fact that all the false gospels in the world will not deceive even one predestined elect sinner.

The match has already been decided so why all the hoopla? Let the deceived have some false joy, it may be all they have before the flames.

64   John Hughes    
March 19th, 2009 at 5:26 pm

Another thing Rick. I also don’t get the “you must believe on the **right** Jesus” sentiment. That is only applicable in the Arminian and/or synergistic world view. In the monogestic/Calvinist world view it is automatically the **right** Jesus that elects, call and saves totally independent of the individual. So it is non-sensical in the Calvinist world view to worry that someone might believe in the **wrong** Jesus and not be saved, because if they are elect they will be saved no matter **what** Jesus they hve head knowledge about. And if someone is believing in the **wrong** Jesus and they are not the elect all the right head knowledge regarding the **right** Jesus will not matter anyway.

I have a headache now.

65   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 19th, 2009 at 6:22 pm

John – You have just entered the Calvinistic twilight zone. :cool:

66   nc    
March 19th, 2009 at 7:21 pm

You’re traveling through another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind; a journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination — Next stop, the Twilight Zone.

67   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
March 19th, 2009 at 7:36 pm

All,

In the interest of fairness to Chris Rosebrough, I sought the opinion a trusted, reliable, and well-respected fellow apologist with regard to Rosebrough’s comments above about penal substitution being part of the gospel. And her response was most interesting.

I am speaking of none other than Rosebrough’s fellow Lutheran, Gretchen Passantino-Cobern, of the famous Bob & Gretchen Passantono team (before Bob’s death) of ANSWERS IN ACTION.

Gretchen, it should be noted, is very well known to Chris. She and her husband Bob, in fact, were very closely connected to him as he began studying apologetics several years ago.

Moreover, in 2007, Rosebrough wrote an apologetic article for answers in action titled “Archeological Identity Theft: The Lost Tomb of Jesus Fails to Make the Grade.” Chris has also worked as a volunteer for Answers in Action as a “supporter & volunteer.”

I presented Rosebrough’s quotes to Gretchen, who responded with grief and sadness over his apparent spiral into the depths of the ODM community. She called such behavior tragic and cited it as an example of how he and others are actually fighting AGAINST the very Gospel they are claiming to defend. She stated:

“When ODM people make such strident & narrow charges against other Christians, even against pastors & other Christian leaders, they are guilty of breaking the commandment about not bearing false witness.

They don’t even have to say anything false, they just have to say it with rigidity & condemnation & they stifle their target’s ability to be used by God — flaws & all — in extending the kingdom through the preaching of the simple gospel.

When ODM people demand their own brand of sophisticated, theologically complex ‘orthodoxy’ to keep them from denouncing anyone else, they also prohibit young & growing Christians from candidly sharing their faith in their own unsophisticated, simple way from fear of intimidation by those more articulate.

Finally, when ODM people demand completely precise & complex theological jargon from every Christian who speaks or writes about his faith, they abort any candid theological development through discussion; ‘iron sharpening iron’ becomes ‘knives slicing bloodily through the sheep.’

There would never have been lay evangelism or theological development or common martyrdom if the early church had been cursed with the high-handed judgmentalism of the ODM community.”

So speaks another legitimate apologist.

Richard Abanes

68   nc    
March 19th, 2009 at 7:49 pm

Ick.

did you get her permission to post this?

This just seems like a “gotcha” pot-shot.

69   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
March 19th, 2009 at 7:55 pm

I did get her permission. She SPECIFICALLY endorsed its posting — after many hours of her trying to get through to Chris. There is a lot of back story here. And she has now decided that to state this publicly was needed.

R.A.

P.S. It is not a “gotcha” pot-shot.

This is a sanctioned assessment/statement by a well-respected third party, neutral apologist whom I respect and whom Chris respects (last I heard, anyway). And she is a Lutheran, LCMS, same as Chris. There could be no more an impartial voice than her’s.

70   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 19th, 2009 at 7:56 pm

“Finally, when ODM people demand completely precise & complex theological jargon from every Christian who speaks or writes about his faith, they abort any candid theological development through discussion; ‘iron sharpening iron’ becomes ‘knives slicing bloodily through the sheep.”

Indeed. And why are there no humility ODMs, ones that watch for self righteousness and hubris in the body of Christ? Why do many of the ODMs act like the doctrinal magisterium, even when they themselves have substantive disagreements over important doctrines? There are, to be sure, doctrinal detours in today’s evangelical community.

But why aren’t grace, humility, gentleness, and love itself not considered important enough to defend? In my opinion it is no coincidence that many, if not most, ODMs are of the Calvinistic variety. That aberrant view of redemption allows people to insulate themselves from genuine concern over the eternal destiny of the lost world.

If only the ODMs had as much patience and love and redemptive hope, such that warrants gentle and Christlike interaction, that they surely must exhibit to their own children. I have seen how they treat each other when in disagreement, but I have also seen how quickly that spirit disappears when attacking those who have been labeled as doctrinal enemies.

Where is the Christianity in all of that?

71   Joe    
March 19th, 2009 at 8:55 pm

#68
NC,
Help me understand what is wrong with that comment? She does a pretty good job of showing the untenable nature of some positions.
The second to last paragraph is brilliant and the entire thing is spot on.

72   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
March 19th, 2009 at 9:15 pm

Gretchen Passantin-Cobern is a BRILLIANT apologist. She and her husband Bobclosely mentored me for years. I love Gretchen, dearly. And I still miss Bob everyday and every time I have a question. I highly recommend her ministry without reservation!

Richard Abanes

73   nc    
March 19th, 2009 at 9:55 pm

71:
Even though it may be an accurate assessment, it’s from a voice that’s not part of this thread/conversation.

The out of left field nature of it just seemed like a “gotcha” by invoking someone with, as RA says, has “back story” that isn’t part of the actual convo here.

It struck me as a bit passive-aggressive by RA.

This person may have cred with some people, but it’s just out of the blue, and people like me don’t know her from Eve.

Just say’n.

74   nc    
March 19th, 2009 at 9:56 pm

I’m glad RA got her permission to post.
That being said, there’s no such thing as an impartial human voice.

75   nc    
March 19th, 2009 at 10:00 pm

To be abundantly clear.

The “gotcha pot-shot” is not an assessment of this woman’s thoughts.

The “gotcha pot-shot” was more about RA’s use of it. That’s why I asked if he got her permission.

76   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 19th, 2009 at 10:11 pm

“That being said, there’s no such thing as an impartial human voice.”

Exactly. That’s why I speak for God. :cool:

77   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
March 19th, 2009 at 10:23 pm

nc,

I really don’t see much difference than if one quoted Luther or Calvin here in quote Gretchen. Other than a mutual relationship that Chris R and Richard share, I see this as not much different.

If in a thread I had talked to Ingrid and she stated it was OK for me to post her comments to me, if it fit the thread I might just do this.

I understand the “gotcha” feeling though. I still see that there are some who are trying to reach Chris R who I see as “sometimes” fair and rational… that he may be falling into dangerous company. Since this has much more background that is explained here, I am giving the benefit of the doubt that the conversation has been much more than just one comment here.

I also hope that Chris R will read the comment and think about what is said. I see that in Chris R’s zeal to attack “heretics” he is undermining his own Lutheran views. I mean to attack Christus Victor in light of just a simple google where many Lutheran Churches bear the very idea in their name… seems Chris R is way out to lunch…

iggy

78   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 19th, 2009 at 10:30 pm

I read Gretchen’s words carefully to find any ad hominen attacks or demeaning language about any pastors personally and I found only issues. It is Godly women like that who contribute greatly, not those who dismiss pastors as “clowns” and “goat herders”.

79   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
March 20th, 2009 at 12:30 am

ALL,

Slight correction — Gretchen is currently a member of CLA (Conservative Lutheran Association). She was a member of LCMS. She is conservative.

RA

80   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 20th, 2009 at 8:56 am

In comment #70 I said:

“If only the ODMs had as much patience and love and redemptive hope, such that warrants gentle and Christlike interaction, that they surely must exhibit to their own children.”

I received an e-mail from a friend who questioned that phrase, so let me amplify. First let me say that I have never met a Calvinist who did not believe, either subliminally or overtly, that all of his children were part of the elect. They interact with their own children with a distinct air of redemptive hope, assuming that at some point that child will be converted. That same redemptive hope does not seem to be present in their interaction with others, especially those with whom they have doctrinal differences.

I have watched these Calvinistic brothers show much patience in their dealings with their own children, and that level of patience seems absent when they dialogue with many others in the blogasphere. And the motivation for such action is most definitely love, and my point was that without a demonstrable love for others we can never hope to achieve a level of interaction that would glorify Him who is love.

Rick Warren and Rob Bell (for example) have been confronted on many issues concerning truth and Biblical practice. In the context of love and respect for them personally and their ministries that dialogue might have reaped some benefits. However they have been personally lambasted, called by demeaning names, questioned as to motives, and relegated to unsaved status with some even suggesting they are fully in concert with Satan himself.

Would anyone say that about their own children? Did the prodigal’s father write biting articles about his rebelluous son? My overarching point was that many show partiality, extreme partiality, when it comes to even interactive communication. It is blatant and unchristian.

If every ODM believed in baptism by immersion as a public act of obedience and with no redemptive quality inherrant in the ceremony itself, then what would be the outrage toward someone who then began teaching that “Baptism Saves”? But some do believe in pure symbolism, but some believe baptism saves, and yet since these two camps have doctrinal hatred for the same people they overlook that substantive doctrinal difference and interact with each other with respect and grace. Respectors of persons?

And if per chance one of their own children grew up and became a solid emergent type, enjoying Bell and others, would they write the same caustic and disrespectful things about their own child? Would they call their son who became an emergent pastor a goat herder by name? Or if their pastor son liked the purpose driven model would they say his church wasn’t even a church at all??

That is my point. If you deal with with your own children differently than you deal with others you are a hypocrite. And if you deal with your own children like you deal with others you are a child abuser.

81   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
March 20th, 2009 at 10:46 am

Rick beautiful illustration and a great model for all of us to measure against.

82   nc    
March 20th, 2009 at 10:58 am

For the record, I never said there was something “personal” or “ad hominem” in her words.

It’s not about her words.

Again, it seemed more like a gotcha for RA to inject her here with no context, etc. etc.

But I understand now…

it’s cool.

83   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 20th, 2009 at 11:02 am

nc – perhaps you were thrown off because she didn’t use the word “crap”? :lol:

84   nc    
March 20th, 2009 at 11:05 am

haha!

85   nc    
March 20th, 2009 at 11:19 am

Is anyone else having trouble viewing CRN.com?

86   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 20th, 2009 at 12:48 pm


Is anyone else having trouble reading CRN.com?”

I can help with the big words if you wish. :cool:

87   nc    
March 20th, 2009 at 1:52 pm

I got it figured out…work computer issues.

Rick,

you’ve got jokes, my friend. ;)

88   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
March 20th, 2009 at 2:04 pm

Is anyone else having trouble viewing CRN.com?

I have always had issue view that site… it trouble too much to visit on purpose…

89   John B    
March 20th, 2009 at 10:23 pm

I read across the following words from Jonathan Edwards on a different forum today and it is sooo appropriate for this thread and the judgment by ODM’s. These same ODM’s have used Edward’s famous sermon “Sinners in the Hand of an Angry God” to bash today’s church so it makes the irony that much better.

In essence, Edwards says we need not judge other believers in whole by part of their theological mistakes.

Another foundation-error of those who reject this work, is, their not duly distinguishing the good from the bad, and very unjustly judging of the whole by a part; and so rejecting the work in general, or in the main substance of it, for the sake of some accidental evil in it. They look for more in men because subject to the operations of a good spirit, than is justly to be expected from them for that reason, in this imperfect state, where so much blindness and corruption remains in the best…

The great weakness of the greater part of mankind, in any affair that is new and uncommon, appears in not distinguishing, but either approving or condemning all in the lump. They who highly approve of the affair in general, cannot bear to have any thing at all found fault with; and, on the other hand, those who fasten their eyes upon some things in the affair that are amiss, and appear very disagreeable to them, at once reject the whole. Both which errors oftentimes arise from the want of persons having a due acquaintance with themselves. It is rash and unjust when we proceed thus in judging either of a particular person, or a people. Many, if they see any thing very ill in a particular person, a minister or private professor, will at once brand him as a hypocrite. And, if there be two or three of a people or society that behave themselves very irregularly, the whole must bear the blame of it…

and he does say this can happen to the best of Christians as well:

Though censoriousness is very sinful, and is most commonly found in hypocrites and persons of a pharisaical spirit, yet it is not so inconsistent with true godliness as some imagine. We have remarkable instances of it in those holy men of whom we have an account in the book of Job. Not only were Job’s three friends, who seem to have been eminently holy men, guilty of it, in very unreasonably censuring the best man on earth…

90   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 21st, 2009 at 7:21 am

A very enlightening excerpt, John. Considering the unfathomable depth and scope of the Person we call God, can we not all agree that all our systematic theologies are in one way or another in error, or at least so limited, so incomplete, and so shallow that in essence it projects a type of error simply by its profound insufficiency?

There are the core tenants of the redemptive gospel, but they are simple according to the divine design. But when men squabble over the fringe issues as if everything rose and fell upon each spiritual truth, well then they elevate themselves to a judge rather than a teacher. And so many judge others in the “all or nothing” fashion and teach others to follow in their example.

During the days of his revival ministry, Charles Finney incorporated an “anxious seat” which was a place where lost sinners can have some time to be counseled and to pray. He continues to this day to be harshly criticized for such a “method” and many dismiss his entire ministry.

It is the Pharisee that demands every jot and tittle of doctrinal accuracy, or at least as he sees it. It is the Pharisee that demeans everyone who strays from the well defined boundaries of his systematic pasture. It is the Pharisee who counts as nothing another man’s heartfelt ministry simply based upon his own perception of methodology.

The Pharisee has arrived at absolute Biblical truth in all corners, and he diligently adds rules and nuances to these truths and energetically applies his personal template to all who dare to see things somewhat differently. The Pharisee is entrenched, and he will both defend and attack all doctrinal targets caught in his ever watchful crosshairs without a hint of gentleness and grace.

The Pharisee has long finished his search for truth, he nows stands as curator and protector of God’s vunerable truth. And although the weapons and methods he uses to defend God’s truth seem to be openly at odds with that same truth, he is willingly blind to his own Biblical variances since the crisis concerning others demands unusual methods and his calling is so important he assumes a “carte blanche” methodology.

The Pharisee does not search for virtue in others, to the contrary, he ignores any perceived virtue in favor of finding every nook and cranny of Biblical deviance as he sees it. And his purpose does not seem redemptive, it usually is openly destructive. And his visceral attacks usually feed the self righteous frenzy that begins when sheep blood is in the water.

John, you have touched on a significant point. There must be a more Christlike way to sharpen our doctrinal iron, one that doesn’t just blowtorch all who dare to offer a different percpective, even when seeminingly wrong on all counts. How can we defend the methodology that defends His truth by eschewing His character? And some of those who were sorely vexed with the term “synagogue of satan” feel no guilt in using similar language to men like Bell and Warren.

Strange days indeed…

91   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
March 21st, 2009 at 4:15 pm

Based on this OP and the comments that followed, I have just posted a new article (ODM UPDATE) at Heresy Hunters that discussing this issue of adding certain conditions/beliefs to the Gospel (see Rosebrough’s comment above) — and how such a mindset is pushing the ODMs further toward being a full-blown cult from a theological perspective, as well from a psychological perspective.

Please do not post comments here since that would likely be off-topic of OP (e.g., commenting on my views belongs at my blog, not here). I believe the mods will appreciate this approach by all readers.

Richard Abanes

92   wilson    
March 21st, 2009 at 11:52 pm

i know there are different interpretations and outworkings of the Gospel, but fundamentally, wasn’t Christ’s coming to die for our sins, take the punishment that we deserve, he who knew no sin became sin for us, that we might be declared righteous? If it’s not that first and foremost, then you are saying “Christ died for our sins”, “Christ died, once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous to bring you to God.”, “God shows his love for us in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us”., etc. and a whole host of verses [ the things that are of first importance:...Christ died FOR sins] don’t mean what they say.

but then you mahy say they don’t mean what *I* say. If Christ didn’t die in our place for our sins, what did he die for?

I came in late so i think i may have missed something, but please, if you can explain to me a Christian of 11 years…

What is the Gospel? What is sin? How am I saved from it? How am I brought back to God. Please explain these things without using the language of penal substitution.

Yes, our faith is not in the particular ‘theory’ but in the work of the cross, but if this is not the means by which we are saved, that Christ died our behalf for our sins, what is?

If Jesus is the Gospel and you are saying our hope is in Jesus, well yeah, that’s true, but i’m sure there are many who believe in Jesus and think he’s a good teacher etc. that would deny that what Jesus did on the cross was for our sins or anything like that.

unless you are saying our hope is in Jesus, what God did was substitutionary atonement and that is why we have salvation. Still if that’s the case, i don’t see what the argument is.

Driscoll says, there is no gospel without penal substitutionary atonement and that seems to make sense to me, it is the heart of why Christ came, yet there are many things that flow OUT of that central work. They are consequences of Christ’s work. Certainly Paul thought Christ’s death was FOR our sins.

Like I said, I don’t understand how Chris R is adding to the Gospel. If you can explain that clearly to me, then that would be much appreciated. In addition to answering those questions about what the gospel is and how my sin is dealt with.

Sorry if this post is a mess, but I am thoroughly confused.

Many thanks
Wilson

93   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
March 22nd, 2009 at 3:02 am

Please explain these things without using the language of penal substitution.

Easy… instead use accounting definitions of Justification and reconciliation.

The idea of “justice” at the time of Jesus was not the same as what was “justice at the time “penal substitution” had come to be developed. It is a great idea and I do believe held within scripture, yet, the idea that it was all about the “Law” I think misses much in understanding things like the curse and fall of man.

The idea of the suffering servant was more in line of the Jewish thought… that there would be two Kings… one that would suffer as a servant, the other would reign as the victor.. and in Jesus we have both. We have a Kind who is acquainted with our sufferings and was willing to suffer with His creation and bring justice… meaning that By Christ’s suffering, man could not say God was unjust in making man suffer for nothing… even if we sinned.

By the suffering of Christ the wages of sin, being death were paid. Sin was forgiven and the books justified so to say allowing us to receive forgiveness and also life by the resurrection.

To say it was all about the Law then misses subtle nuances in that God was balancing the books to make man able to come to Him without fear of punishment. For even if one was to substitute himself for another, with out the bookkeeping part being done one may still walk in fear of punishment and not understand how secure in his forgiveness we are.

So at least to me there needs to be a fuller appreciation to the works of the Cross than just seeing it as fulfilling the legalities of the Law.

iggy

94   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 22nd, 2009 at 7:07 am

Wilson – the subtlety seems to be this:

Jesus came to pay for our sins and to take the judicial punishment we so richly deserved. His life and sacrifice were fulfilments of some Old Testament prophecies and metaphors, not the least of which was the :lamb”, referring to both the Passover lamb and the lamb sacrificed in the priestly sacrifices of the law.

Everyone agrees with that. But some suggest that Christ laid down his life and allowed humans to kill Him, while others suggest God killed His Son as an act of supreme love and sacrifice. The latter is the “penal” view which is what I subscribe to.

Although I believe that is an important element in redemption, I do not believe it is essential for salvation. When I was saved I did not actually know that at all, all I knew was that (as you said) Jesus died in my place and paid for my sins by his shed blood.

What some here object to is the suggestion that the penal view is the only view that saves because some call it “the gospel”. Let us be clear, whether God just “gace” His only geotten Son knowing that humans would kill Him, or God participated in the actual sacrifice is moot. Even Jesus told Pilate that he would not have the power to have Him murdered unless the Father had given him that power.

So in reality, in one way or another, God participated in the sacrifice of His Son, all for His love for us. Amazing.

95   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
March 22nd, 2009 at 9:02 am

Wilson,
I was about to write a long answer to your question, but it might just be easier to point you to this article a few of us wrote together a while back. We talked about the different atonement models that people have come up throughout history.

My main problem with the penal substitution model comes when it is combined with a theology of limited atonement. If Christ only took the punishment for some people, that means that God is still angry and will remain angry at others. It seems to me that it almost paints God as schizophrenic, because He loves us sometimes and wants to kills at others.

I have less a problem with the version Rick laid out. If someone says Christ took the punishment for all sins of all people at all time, I can agree with that.

I would also say that my other gripe is that the penal substitution is very grounded in a western mindset where the guilt or the payment due to a wronged party from sin is the primary concern. Whereas in eastern cultures, that isn’t the concern. In fact many eastern people would say there is no payment that can fully account for the effects of sin. The real issue with sin is the shame and the broken relationship it causes. So I see the cross more as a way of Jesus taking up Him all our shame from our sin and by doing so allowing us to approach God without shame once again. We no longer must try to cover ourselves with fig leaves, so to speak.

96   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 22nd, 2009 at 10:16 am

One of the aspects of the Divine Person to which the Scriptures refer is His office as Judge, to whom we must answer. Let us remove and dismiss the Calvinistic view of almost anything since that is a strawman and does not actually represent most of evangelicalsism, even those of us who espouse the penal substitutionary essence of that six hour event just outside Jerusalem. God is a judge.

Now the judicial essence of the Godhead is a mystery in many ways. If God is the Creator of everything and He is all knowing and all powerful, why could He not have made everything with an embedded truth that allowed Him to redeem through divine decree? And why could God not have created Adam complete with an inherant grace that would cover the sin God knew he would commit? And why would the Author of Life demand death as His eternal appeasement?

These questions both reveal our infinite limitations of understanding and our complete reliance upon the divine revelations for our truth. The atonement of Christ had a concert of particpators. The Jews, the Romans, Pilate, humanity, the Father, and Jesus Himself all in some way coalesced to bring about the greatest injustice and the greatest judicial substitution of all eternity. Make no mistake, though, the plan was God’s before creation itself. It is indeed difficult to fathom, and surely most impossible to unravel completely through the words and thoughts of man.

But our calling by the words of Jesus Himself is to spread the core message of the gospel, that the sins of the world were paid for on that cross and that purely by faith – PURELY BY FAITH – EVERY SINNER can receive eternal forgiveness and be pronounced innocent before the God of all Holiness.

It is indeed a counter productive phenomenon to see many who demand a penal understanding of the cross, simultaneously limit the expanse and redemptive power of that same cross by suggesting an offer of atonement for a diminutive handful of divine lottery winners. But as I allude to previously, Calvinism is illogical, unbiblical, fatalistic, and does violence to the unabridged human essence of God’s offer of atonement.

The justice that was fulfilled on Golgotha was understood even by the thief on the cross who acknowledged his own just punishment but also recognized the injustice being given to this Jesus of Nazareth. “He has done nothing wrong” is one of the truest statements ever made, but upon the illumination of the Holy Spirit we understand His death was a divine revelation that WE did something wrong for which He died.

Some of the perspectives outlined in the post Phil linked to are wonderful revelations of the redemptive landscape, however I do not see how anyone can deny a punishment aspect on some level at Calvary. We cannot reject things primarily because those who espouse it use it as a badge of doctrinal hubris rather than a humble message that should reduce us all to selfless praise. This cross is not a doctrine that should be picked up and used to meet out a doctrinal justice that kills rather than redeems.

However you understand God’s wrath, or justice, or moral demands, however you see God’s divine emotions toward man, you cannot, you must not, ignore the colossal mystery that apppeasement was eternally fulfilled through the human/divine blood of the Eternal Word called Jesus. No one can understand such an archaic method of punishment being the redemptive vehicle through which we can all find life.

So instead of demanding a doctrinal purity that results in self righteousness and bitter division, we all should instead remove the shoes from off our spiritual feet and bow down in tearful glory and worship the One who rises infinitely above all that we can ever ask or think. Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose again on the third day is the gospel in all its fulness, and an 8 year old little AIDs infected African girl, who will never even hear the different atonement theories, can believe that in her heart and be just as saved as Calvin, Spurgeon, or the Apostle Paul himself.

May the Lamb that was slain receive the rewards of His suffering!!

97   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
March 22nd, 2009 at 10:24 am

Wilson,

Good question. I look at what happened at the atonement on the cross in much the same way as I look at the trinity — both are, in many ways, metaphysical mysteries with their fullness of reality wrapped up deeply within the divine complexities of God’s nature, ways, and powers.

All of us humans — as feeble, fallible, and finite beings — only only be able to understand both the Trinity and the Atonement to a limited degree. So, we try with all our might to wrap our little ant brains around the concepts.

It is certainly true that we can understand as much about the Trinity that we need to understand, and as much about the Atonement that we need to understand to enjoy a relationship with God. But that’s where it stops.

So, various THEORIES, for example, about PRECISELY how the atonement worked — in all its fullness — remains just a man-made theory. God does not spell out in utter completeness exactly how what happened on the cross actually happened on a cosmic, metaphysical, eternal level.

To me, “Penal Substitution” hits closest to what is revealed in the Bible about that event. But there seems to be much more involved in what occurred, and as the state from Leon Morris states, we need all the theories, tbh.

To say that ONE of them is a “non-negotiable” part of the Gospel is adding to the purity and simplicity that says to unbelievers — Come to the cross. Come to Jesus. For this is the Gospel:

By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures…” (1 Cor. 15:1-4).

I heard Greg Laurie preach the Gospel last week as deeply, as loving, as firmly, as biblically and anyone I’ve heard ever preach it!! And he said NOTHING about the “Penal Substitution Theory.” Why? Because it’s not part of the Gospel.

Richard Abanes

98   pastorboy    http://www.worldviewweekend.org
March 22nd, 2009 at 2:36 pm

11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in [4] blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. 15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

Thats MY King…..

I want nothing to do with the Jesus of the Shack…It is a false teaching, a false Christ which submits to my will instead of me submitting to His.

99   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 22nd, 2009 at 2:42 pm

I prefer strawberry shacks.

100   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 22nd, 2009 at 3:47 pm

John – why doesn’t your name click to your blog?

101   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 22nd, 2009 at 4:03 pm

CRN seems to be experiencing some technical difficulties. As much as Ken and I butt heads, I do hope his blog gets back up. I cannot say that for some of his links. :cool:

102   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
March 22nd, 2009 at 4:04 pm

There is an EXCELLENT article on the Shack and William Young (including material from an interview with Young) at CARM.

Now, let us make sure to not conjoin two SEPARATE points: 1) Young’s views of God and related matters; 2) whether or not Penal Substitution Theory of the atonement is a non-negotiable part of the Gospel.

Young might be totally out to lunch regarding God, salvation, and related matters. But that still wouldn’t mean that he is heretical or has a different Jesus JUST for denying the “Penal Substitution” THEORY of the atonement. Let’s not start mixing up these issues.

Richard Abanes

103   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 22nd, 2009 at 4:17 pm

Why do I care about The Shack? Will it mean the elect might go to hell? Why do I have to defend Young? I have come to believe that many of these so called issues are distractions.

I do not plan on reading The Shack and I am somewhat disinterested in the polar dialogue. Some believer’s entire exitence rests on the next argument or attack. In some ways I am more convinced about grace and sovereignty than those who espouse the “doctrines of sovereign grace”.

104   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
March 22nd, 2009 at 4:21 pm

Yeah, what you said.

RA

105   pastorboy    http://www.pastorboy.wordpress.com
March 22nd, 2009 at 6:23 pm

#101
How about now, Rick??

106   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 22nd, 2009 at 6:41 pm

From the CRN desk:

“an event featuring notable false teachers such as Richard Rohr, purveyor of apostate Roman Catholicism, Emergent Guru Brian McLaren, the Tony Campolo disciple Shane Claiborne, and Phyllis Tickle, the emporess of Emergence converging together to spread what is now being called “Emergence Christianity.””

Ken is back with his unmistakeable brand of multitudinous adjectives and labels. At least Miley Cyrus is safe at CRN so far. :cool:

ANNOUNCEMENT

I have now coined some phrases of my own.

Clown ODM - draws attention to a ridiculous post

Whining ODM - draws attention to a “poor me” post

Dead Horse ODM - draws attention to the redundant posting

Idolater ODM - draws attention to an idol worshiping post

Goat Hater ODM - draws attention to the hatred of the lost

Scarecrow ODM – draws attention to a strawman post

Tin Man ODM - draws attention to a heartless post

Cowardly Lion ODM - draws attention to cowardice

Lego ODM - draws attention to building a false argument

Stevie Wonder ODM - draws attention to the personal blindness of their own sin

Clinton ODM - draws attention to a sexual obsession

Grimm ODM - draws attention to a fairy tale post

Phelps ODM - draws attention to an unsual expression of hatred

* Other suggestions are welcomed.

107   Bo Diaz    
March 22nd, 2009 at 6:44 pm

What are the chances that Pastor Boy has actually read the Shack?

108   pastorboy    http://www.worldviewweekend.org
March 22nd, 2009 at 7:31 pm

#108

I don’t need to go into a pig pen to know it stinks.

I have not read it, nor will I. I have read trusted reviews of it, and have seen enough quotes from it to know it is closer to paganism and idolatry than any form of Biblical Christianity.

109   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 22nd, 2009 at 7:45 pm

I am happy to announce this as the first recipient of the

“Lego ODM” award since it presents a lie as truth, and the “Idolater ODM” award since it makes America an idol. The pastor in question was not sent to jail because he was pro-life, but because he refused to obey the law.

Away with these sidewalk talking pro-life compromisers, bomb the clinic and show some real commitment. How about dedicating our lives to reaching young people with the gospel before they get pregnant? But of course we would have to pause our vitriolic judgment about young people first. That just may be too high a cost.

If being against abortion is what makes a dedicated believer we are all in trouble. Being pro-life is a no brainer and takes no real sacrifice, even the Pope is pro-life.

110   pastorboy    http://www.worldviewweekend.org
March 22nd, 2009 at 7:54 pm

#110

Though this is terribly off the subject of the OP

Rick, he went to jail because he refused to obey an unjust court order.

The Darwin-inspired Planned Parenthood, with the support of the Federal Government are supporting a genocide of African-American babies. This African American Pastor is a hero, and the judge needs to be removed from the bench IMHO.

Now back to the remarkably stupid discussion on this OP

111   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 22nd, 2009 at 7:59 pm

John – you made my point. The first sentence is a lie.

“A California pastor is headed to jail for his pro-life stance.”

As you correctly indicated, it was for refusing to obey the law.

“The Darwin-inspired Planned Parenthood, with the support of the Federal Government are supporting a genocide of African-American babies. This African American Pastor is a hero, and the judge needs to be removed from the bench IMHO.”

Yep, that’s the gospel alright. You guys espouse a “clean the outside of the cup first” form of evangelism. I love the way total depravity provides such a convenient target for moral indignation.

112   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
March 22nd, 2009 at 8:29 pm

pastorboy: Rick, he went to jail because he refused to obey an unjust court order.

RA: WRONG. An unjust court order would have been any one of the following:

1. Perform an abortion (unjust in conflict with thou shalt not kill).

2. make your wife have an abortion (see above).

3. Don’t speak to anyone for 1 year about abortion (unjust in conflict with Freedom of Speech).

4. Stop praying or sharing the Gospel for one year (unjust in conflict with Freedom of Religion).

5. Do not assemble/meet with any other Pro-Lifers and don’t seek to raise funds to support your pro-life activities (unjust in conflict with freedom of the right to assembling, as well the guaranteed rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness).

Contrary to how you/Ingrid and this pastor are acting, the law did NOT demand that he violate any mandate of scripture.

He was guilty of “unlawfully approaching two persons entering an abortion clinic in Oakland.” In other words, he broke a law — period. And that law to stay away from those 2 people was legally established. More importantly, it does not tread on the commands God gives us in scripture.

Moreover, the judge showed leniency by simply ordering that he stay 100 yards from the clinic for 3 years — and he would be released on probation.

AGAIN, that was a legal, lenient, fair, and understandable condition for release that would NOT have interfered with the pastor’s rights to obey scripture.

But this pastor caused even more trouble by refusing to abide by that simple condition. He created the conflict and he pushed for his own punishment.

Now is being depicted as a martyr, which to be honest, is an insult to TRUE martyrs and those who have TRULY been persecuted for seeking to follow scripture and Christ.

It’s offensive, as well as obnoxious, and his actions only serve to make Christians look more like idiots and trouble makers in the eyes of those we’re trying to reach for Christ.

And, btw, this is a false statement from the Ingrid-linked article: “It is absolutely incredible that in America an individual can be sentenced to jail for engaging in peaceful free speech activity on a public sidewalk.”

That’s not why he was sentenced to jail. He was sentenced to jail for being too pig-headed to simply stay 100 yards away from the clinic. And he got himself in that position in the first place because he didn’t conduct his “peaceful free speech activity” where he was supposed to have conducted it–he broke the law by approaching 2 people he shouldn’t have approached.

This pastor, you, Ingrid, and like-minded Christians create trouble — then blame others for it.

True persecution comes to a person unwanted, like it came to the early church martyrs — and like it comes to those who live in countries of persecution.

But you and others go looking for it, and when it’s not there, you make it.

HERE’S SOMETHING YOU/INGRID DIDN’T MENTION……

That pastor was “given the option of volunteering or using the jail’s work-release program instead of jail time as punishment….”

Small detail.

So he didn’t even have to go to jail. He could have done volunteer time or paid his debt using a work-release program. But NOoooo, he just HAD to go to jail. How shameful.

OH, AND HERE’S ANOTHER DETAIL YOU MISSED….

The Bubble Law he broke only forbids protesters to “stay 8 feet away from any patient and escort who are trying to enter a clinic.”

You’re telling me his guy couldn’t do his “peaceful free speech activity” eight feet from the people he approached? Yeah, right. Sorry. Anything you need to say from 2 feet you can say from 8 feet.

Finally, here’s what happened in the courtroom — the judged kept trying to get him to NOT go to jail:

“Although Hoye admitted he would not abide by the judge’s stay-away order, Hing continued to give the pastor the option of staying out of jail and using other programs as a method to serve his time. But Hoye refused and was cheered by a packed courtroom of supporters as he was led out of the hearing by sheriff’s deputies.”

That’s called being a trouble-making and making yourself a martyr. Don’t insult real martyrs.

RA

113   Bo Diaz    
March 22nd, 2009 at 9:19 pm

#108

I don’t need to go into a pig pen to know it stinks.

I have not read it, nor will I. I have read trusted reviews of it, and have seen enough quotes from it to know it is closer to paganism and idolatry than any form of Biblical Christianity.

Your mastery of the shack is only paralleled by your mastery of theology.

114   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 22nd, 2009 at 9:29 pm

RA – you make an excellent point. Not succinct, as usual, but very valid and true. :)

115   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
March 22nd, 2009 at 9:55 pm

I do tend to ramble, don’t I? LoL. Hey, what can I say, I’m used to having at least 50,000 words. Teehee.

RA

116   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 22nd, 2009 at 10:02 pm

Seriously, your comment was excellent and uncovered the lies and hypocrisy in what Ingrid wrote. The overwhelming preponderance of martyrs were killed because of faith issues. The self constructed moral martyrs are imposters.

117   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
March 22nd, 2009 at 10:24 pm

You know, I often read the Early Church Fathers to remember what sacrifices were made and what struggles were endured by our spiritual ancestors. It causes me to stop, praise God, re-examine my own life, and learn from those who, according to Hebrews, the world was unworthy of.

Perhaps that is why such twisted antics cause me so much grief. It cheapens the blood shred and the cries of anguish voiced by so many noble men, women, and children for the cause of Christ.

peace at ya, Rick,

RA
P.S. You might really enjoy reading the ECF.

118   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
March 22nd, 2009 at 10:41 pm

So….

We should just allow for abortions to happen, allow our free speech rights to be abolished, all so we can be seen as non troublemakers?

Listen, you are missing the point.

Any abrogation of our freedom of religion or speech or assembly- i.e. who and when and where we can speak, or assemble is an attack on our freedom. I should be able to approach anyone on public property. 100 yards is completely unreasonable. Telling me who I can approach on public property is completely inappropriate.

Richard, not only do you clearly care that the very foundations of our faith are attacked in the Shack, but you do not seem to care that there is a genocide of African American babies happening in our country. And, it is an attack on your freedoms, as well as that Pastors to be told what he can say, who he can speak to, and what public property he can speak from.

I must obey God rather than men.

119   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
March 22nd, 2009 at 10:59 pm

We should just allow for abortions to happen, allow our free speech rights to be abolished, all so we can be seen as non troublemakers?

Actually those who care the least about defending their rights are usually seen as the biggest troublemakers in society. Jesus didn’t protest while He was being tortured and killed.

The reason the early church survived and flourished was not because of defeating its political enemies, but because it died loving its enemies. It means very little to protest outside an abortion clinic if we can’t show love to those walking out of one.

120   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
March 22nd, 2009 at 11:00 pm

P: Listen, you are missing the point.

RA: No, YOU are missing the point.

First, you said, “So….We should just allow for abortions to happen.”

Excuse me, but abortions ARE already happening and we ARE allowing it.

- Are you out there actually stopping them physically? No.

- Are you kidnapping the mothers and holding them prisoner until they reach term? No.

- Are you barricading the doctors in their homes so they can’t leave and do abortions? No.

Again, the fact is that we, as a country, ARE allowing abortions.

Please DO NOT equate stopping abortions with illegally stepping to close to someone by an abortion clinic and getting yourself arrested, then causing a big stink by refusing to do some community service as punishment for breaking the law. That is NOT stopping abortion, that is causing trouble.

Second, OH PLEASE, stop with the cry of this is allowing “allow our free speech rights to be abolished.” You want abolished free speech rights? Go live in a communist or dictator country. You don’t know what persecution is.

It is NOT trampling our free speech rights to tell someone to stay 8 feet from someone. Hold you signs. Chant your chants. Pass out your flyers. Pray as you wish. Go ahead, free speech yourself until you’re blue in the face — but do it 8 feet from people. That, sir, is not abolishing free speech.

How about a little civility and honoring the laws of the land and God’s ordained authorities he has allowed to rule (THAT, btw, is biblical).

Third, NO ONE is abrogating anything.

Can you yell fire in a theater?
NO.

Can you loiter just anywhere and congregate anywhere?
NO.

Can you assemble a street protest without a license?
NO.

Can you sell your wares on the street anywhere you like?
NO.

Can you walk within 8 feet of someone trying to enter an abortion clinic?
NO.

Same thing. There are restrictions all around us that touch our free speech and freedom of assembly. It’s called keeping civil order. No one is tearing any of your rights away, only asking that you exercise them in certain ways that help for peaceful co-existence with others who do not share your views.

P: I should be able to approach anyone on public property. 100 yards is completely unreasonable.

RA: That’s your opinion. Others feel different. Get a petition. Get it on the ballot. Take a vote. Until a change, obey the law.

You want to bey God? Start obeying him.

And, BTW, you UTTERLY misrepresent my views on both the Shack and African American babies. Predictable, really.

RA

121   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
March 22nd, 2009 at 11:03 pm

We should just allow for abortions to happen, allow our free speech rights to be abolished, all so we can be seen as non troublemakers?

As usual, you fail at reading comprehension. The law is not forcing anyone to have an abortion, and the ‘bubble law’ is 8 feet, not 100 yards – but this guy made an a$$ of himself and a mockery of God by refusing to obey the law, even if it is not a law that is congruent with God’s laws:

Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. 12Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.

Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

PB: I must obey God rather than men.

Apparently, you wish to obey neither.

122   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
March 22nd, 2009 at 11:05 pm

“The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one….”

123   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
March 22nd, 2009 at 11:46 pm

What an enormous fallacy. Like I said, you desire to disobey the law about abortion? Bomb the place. Are we supposed to pass out tracts if the place in which we work forbids it? No one said he could not speak to women, or he could not preach about abortion publicly, but he made a test case of 8 feet and Ingrid lies about it so she could make that pastor a hero and her blog a bold witness for the pro-life position.

Some of the same people who lament about Roe v. Wade both teach total depravity and eschew most evangelistic “methods”. Talk about scolding a drowning man while withholding the life preserver. I suggest that the life clinics in thousands of cities that are funded and run by evangelical volunteers are far more effective in addressing unwanted pregnancies than protesting on a sidewalk.

But you can always post about your protesting so people can see how much persecution you endure. How can you use carnal weaponry to confront spiritual issues? Protests are just as “carnal” as motorcycles on stage.

Moral issues Christianity is counter productive to the gospel of redemption.

124   richard abanes    http://abanes.com
March 23rd, 2009 at 9:53 am

Rick,

I love that phrase you used: “life clinics.” And I warn you that I am going to steal it. LoL. That is soooo perfect a term for places where not just women, but men and children can go.

We need more “life clinics,” which America guarantees we can establish based on freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion. Then we need volunteers to get the word about about life and our God, who is the Creator of life.

I like Greg Laurie’s little motto, which sums up our mission so well: “Knowing God and making God Known.” Amen!

Ingrid rants: “God bless America? I think not.”

I beg to differ. God bless America, indeed.

Our USA freedoms are unparalleled in so many ways. These people have no idea what persecution is, and are spitting on a blessing of God when they make comments like Ingrid’s. God has so richly blessed us in this country that it’s unbelievable. And I, for one, am grateful.

peace in Him,

RAbanes

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