Of cheap grace I haven’t heard of before I sarted blogging. Since then I have seen this cheap grace term thrown around in a number of posts and comments and I still don’t understand what it means so I thought I would rather ask than stay stupid forever.
Here is what confuses me:
Now grace is given freely and if grace is not free it is not grace to begin with, right? So how can grace be cheap… or expensive if it is free? If however it refers to the cost to the One who gives the grace it is a different story, for the cost of this grace is higher than can be measured by any earthly standard, so it cannot be that either. Now it seems to me that those who use this term use it whenever someone suggests that grace is offered universally. In such a case should grace not be worth more? I am confused. Please help me understand.
140 Comments(+Add)
Gene – what many people mean by cheap grace is the notion that a person can say a prayer, walk away without ever experiencing any change in his life, and still be considered saved. Let me say I have never met anyone who says that is a narrative of true regeneration, so in actuality it is another strawman.
But what is always troubling is the concept that anyone can accurately assess the redemptive status of someone else, and that there can be constructed an observable measuring stick that we can use as a template to divine the sheep from the goats.
Another issue that I have observed is that those who speak loudest about the churches being filled with goats seem to have little or no pathos and deep concern for those “goats”. They make their point about “cheap grace” and that is all they desire to achieve.
When you teach that only the elect can be saved and that prayer changes nothing, all you have is a complaining spectator.
I believe the term was coined by Bonhoeffer in his, “Cost of Discipleship”. (Great book, by the way. For all the people who’ve read it, it’s too bad people don’t actually do what it proposes.)
The deeper irony is that after a responsible look at Bonhoeffer’s beliefs/theology, etc. I’m sure the ADM’s would find something to render him an “anti-theologian” or a “goat-herder” or whatever himself.
Grace and Discipleship
Cheap grace is the deadly enemy of our Church. We are fighting today for costly grace. Cheap grace means grace sold on the market like cheapjacks’ wares. The sacraments, the forgiveness of sin, and the consolations of religion are thrown away at cut prices. Grace is represented as the Church’s inexhaustible treasury, from which she showers blessings with generous hands, without asking questions or
fixing limits. Grace without price; grace without cost! The essence of grace, we suppose, is that the account has been paid in advance; and, because it has been paid, everything can be had for nothing…. 45
Cheap grace means grace as a doctrine, a principle, a system. It means forgiveness of sins proclaimed as a general truth, the love of God taught as the Christian ‘conception’ of God. An intellectual assent to that idea is held to be of itself sufficient to secure remission of sins…. In such a Church the world finds a cheap covering for its sins; no contrition is required, still less any real desire to be delivered from sin. Cheap grace therefore amounts to a denial of the living Word of God, in fact, a denial of the Incarnation of the Word of God. 45-46
Cheap grace means the justification of sin without the justification of the sinner. Grace alone does everything they say, and so everything can remain as it was before. ‘All for sin could not atone.’ Well, then, let the Christian live like the rest of the world, let him model himself on the world’s standards in every sphere of life, and not presumptuously aspire to live a different life under grace from his old life under sin….
Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession…. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate. 47
Costly grace is the treasure hidden in the field; for the sake of it a man’ will gladly go and self all that he has. It is the pearl of great price to buy which the merchant will sell all his goods. It is the kingly rule of Christ, for whose sake a man will pluck out the eye which causes him to stumble, it is the call of Jesus Christ at which the disciple leaves his nets and follows him.
Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock. Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of his Son: “ye were bought at a price,” and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon his Son too dear a price to pay for our life, but delivered him up for us. Costly grace is the Incarnation of God.
Costly grace is the sanctuary of God; it has to be protected from the world, and not thrown to the dogs. It is therefore the living word, the Word of God, which he speaks as it pleases him. Costly grace confronts us as a gracious call to follow Jesus. It comes as a word of forgiveness to the broken spirit and the contrite heart. Grace is costly because it compels a man to submit to the yoke of Christ and follow him; it is grace because Jesus says: “My yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
On two separate occasions Peter received the call, “Follow me.” It was the first and last word Jesus spoke to his disciple (Mark 1.17; John 21.22). A whole life lies between these two calls. The first occasion was by the lake of Gennesareth, when Peter left his nets and his craft and followed Jesus at his word. The second occasion is when the Risen Lord finds him back again at his old trade. Once again it is by the lake of Gennesareth, and once again the call is: “Follow me.” Between the two calls lay a whole life of discipleship in the following of Christ. Half-way between them comes Peter’s confession, when he acknowledged Jesus as the Christ of God….48
way did grace arrest him, the one grace proclaimed in
This grace was certainly not self-bestowed. It was the grace of Christ himself, now prevailing upon the disciple to leave all and follow him, now working in him that confession which to the world must sound like the ultimate blasphemy, now inviting Peter to the supreme fellowship of martyrdom for the Lord he had denied, and thereby forgiving him all his sins. In the life of Peter grace and discipleship are inseparable. He had received the grace which costs. 49
As Christianity spread, and the Church became more secularized, this realization of the costliness of grace gradually faded. The world was Christianized, and grace became its common property. It was to be had at low cost….49
From here:
http://www.crossroad.to/Persecution/Bonhoffer.html
What’s amazing is that the most of the “seeker sensitive” types I know would agree with Bonhoeffer.
Same thing with “emergent heretics”….
Yea, but it’s much more fun punching a straw man. Seriously, as much as I have made known my thoughts on Calvinism/reformed/Lutheranism and all forms of unconditional election/anti-free willism, I have just recently become aware of a much deeper connection between those theologies and the unchristian attitudes toward almost everything.
I’ll keep doing sentry duty.
It really does go back to theology proper. Our conception of God ends up shaping everything else.
If we emphasize sovereignty as the fixed point of definition of God’s being then it quickly just translates into “control”, “laws”, etc. etc.
“holiness” no longer means the ineffable, singular, radical ontological difference of God’s being.
it just means the one who is perfectly behaved to merit the right to control.
Thus, if the “God” we worship is “in charge” and that’s the main point to us…the it’s no wonder that there is a highminded setting oneself over others, etc. etc.
If the “God” we worship is about perfect juridical judgement and that’s the main point to us, then it’s no wonder there’s a fascination with finger pointing, constant insistence on casting everything in terms of “guilty” (Chris R), win-lose (Truth War, KS, etc.) and the list goes on and on.
It’s not that God isn’t sovereign, or has perfect judgement. It’s that that is NOT, is not, is not, is not, is not, the main point about God and God’s being in light of the witness, work and life of Jesus and the whole of the NT re-framing of who God is and how God works and what God ultimately cares about.
Without God’s grace, all our good works are sin.
Take all the attributes of God, add them up together, and they would be dwarfed by His one attribute/essence called love. It is impossible to assess or calculate or even understand the love that set the Incarnation in motion.
That understanding of theology MUST be the prism through which we see all others. Without love, everything else is meaningless.
God is love. You mess that up, and you mess everything up, but especially the shape of the church.
Yeah I know NC said it better, but I don’t care, I said it anyway.
Bo,
you actually said it perfectly.
God is love.
Actually Gentlemen, God is a complex doctrinal equation that requires years of deep study, original language credentials, and with the help of many dead theologians.
Onlt then can you discover God. He loves to hide.
In eight words or less, make your point.
In my literary world, eight words are one.
We’re all bastards, but God loves us anyway.
8 words.
“He that believes on Me shall never die.”
Gene,
Cheap Grace is what I observed most recently in Florida, where literally hundreds of drunken college approached me, all saying they were taking a break from Christ as they planned to fornicate, get high, get drunk, etc. with the full knowledge that they could ask forgiveness and God would forgive them…
So Jesus died so we could continue to sin without regard to the price paid…
Cheap grace. License.
PB,
That is not cheap Grace… it is a non-biblical understanding of Grace.
And legalism does not solve that issue… knowing Jesus does.
iggy
#17
I agree with Iggy…
I better check my meds….
The following from PB’s link:
reminds me a lot of this:
The audaciousness and extravagant love of God is too much for our human sensibilities to bear.
I come here for posts and comments like these.
I wish I had said that. If we can understand it, if we can explain it, and if we can actually define it, then it isn’t God’s love. And if does not appear to be beyond what is reasonable and acceptable, and if it does not appear to be uncomfortably extended to the worst and most unworthy of sinners among us, then it isn’t God’s love.
If it is a love that we would give, it isn’t God’s love. If it is altered or tempored in any way by a sinner’s behavior, it isn’t God’s love.
Rick,
PB’s comments were directed to professing Christians. I may not agree with PB on some issues or approaches to ministry, but there are certain minimal expectations that God expects of us. The kids he was talking with at the beach were either ill-informed or deceived into thinking they were saved. They need to be corrected. We all do.
Love covers sin, but does not condone it.
Love forgives sin, but holds the sinner accountable for his own actions.
Love chastens and corrects or it is sentimental goo that does no eternal good for the receipiant.
Grace does not condone lawlessness. No one has flat out said that here but in the effort to “correct” PB that’s how it comes across: i.e., actions don’t matter. Again, no one has said this, but that is what could be easily perceived.
There is a balance. There is a way to correct in love. There is a middle ground between PB and his detractors.
I have to say that in all the time I’ve spent in campus ministry and around college students (I do live around one of the biggest state universities in the country, remember), I have a hard time believing the picture PB is presenting. I’m not saying there aren’t nominal Christians on campus – I’m sure there are, just as there are anywhere. But I’ve not seen any of the big Christian groups – like Campus Crusade, Navigators, InterVarsity, etc. – come close to preaching licentiousness. If anything they tend to err in the opposite direction, presenting things in a very legalistic way.
My point in talking about the elder brother isn’t really to condemn PB. I think that its easy for all of us to become the elder brother many times. “Why are you blessing him God? Why do I have to work so hard for everything?” It’s just easy to fall back into the punishment/reward type of thinking. God’s grace comes along and totally disrupts that. A person who has truly experienced the grace and love of God knows that they aren’t to continue sinning because to do so would break the Father’s heart. If there are Christian who have this misunderstanding, I would assume it’s because they are immature, or perhaps in PB’s case, they were just trying to get his goat, so to speak.
I may have a comment in the spam filter… if not it was brilliant and you all will miss it… as I don’t have time to retype the greatness of my thinking…
iggy
No worries, I said seven hail marys.
You desire to shoot fish in a barrel? Come to Florida, go to Daytona Beach, interview unsaved young people, and you will have great bulletin board material that will surprise no one but will reinforce our “shocking” disdain for the spiritual views of unsaved young people.
Yawn – Ho-hum – Old news.
Show me where any discerners post about the outrage concerning their own sin. Read Jerry’s current post and see real Christianity that says “God have mercy on me a sinner” as opposed to “God listen to how unbiblical these young people are.” Documenting the words of the unsaved proves what? That they don’t understand? No kidding. What is insinuated is much more self righteous than just informing us all to the Biblical ignorance of spring break party goers.
Spring break partying young people don’t understand spiritual issues? Who knew? How about mature believers and bloggers who don’t understand spiritual issues? We don’t need to go there because we know it all already.
I’ve got to say I find it hard to believe that anyone, no matter how drunk or high, said anything to John like he presented it.
You can ask a loaded question and get the answer you desire.
“Do you believe you can come here to Florida and party and get forgiven later?”
Drunken Partyer: Sure!
So – “literally hundreds of drunken college approached me, all saying they were taking a break from Christ as they planned to fornicate, get high, get drunk, etc. with the full knowledge that they could ask forgiveness and God would forgive them…”
BTW – In reality all of us have sinned knowing we were sinning and realizing we could ask for forgiveness later. And we have.
If John is lying then this discussion is pointless. If you cannot give him the benefit of the doubt and instead must call him a lier as you have just done then civil discourse is not possible.
I will say this, at least John was at the beach witnessing which is more than I can say for myself. Unless that too was a lie and he was at home on his couch all that time.
This appears to have gone beyond honest disagreement and disentagrated into flat out hate when one considers that everything the other says is a lie by definition.
Hey news flash – the ODMs receive the same grace for their sins as the fornicators and drunkards do for theirs. (Or perhaps God holds Christian legalists to higher standards than He holds Chrisitian fornicators).
Rick PB said he was talking with Christians. That changes the dynamic of the situation.
Rick, this is undoubtedly true. I know I sure have, but if confronted I certainly know that that is a cop-out and a sin on top of a sin and if I did actually say that to a brother I hope to God he would call me out on it.
I guess the only unforgivable sin is legalism. Who knew?
And I’m wearing a scapula, so boo ya!
.
Oh. I’m sorry, I was unaware that I had to believe everything he said. Thanks for clearing that up. I missed that memo. As someone who has been involved in student ministry and has seen truth stretched to “win an argument” I have a problem believing the situation as he presented it. From now on, I’ll send you my comments and you can tell me if they pass the “John Hughes Civility” muster.
Maybe you didn’t get your breakfast of choice this morning but I never said everything he was saying was a lie, I said, I didn’t believe that drunk people (been around a few of them too) came up and told him that they were taking time off from Jesus.
John, have you been around drunk people?Does that sound realistic to you? BTW, could I have you email for future comments? And what do you think is the expected turn around time for those?
PB’s witnessing is an area about which I admire. I have told him that before. I just doubt the way he couches some events.
Oh and one news flash back at ya! I don’t like words being put in my mouth
#35
Bad Rick. Bad bad bad. You’re not allowed to say that. It is too un-pC
All JHCMs can be directed to me at narykids@swbell.net. They will be answered within 24 hrs. Those desiring a quicker response should address all requests for reviews to 4.29@Ephesians.org
BTW I had oat meal this morning – Brown Sugar and Cinimon. It was pretty good.
So John tell me, if I don’t believe what is presented am I allowed to say that?
Joe,
So it’s OK to call PB a lier when you have no evidence he is, just based on a hunch?
it’s call hyperbole, not necessarily to be taken literally.
John,
Are you saying
is hyperbole?
I am actually asking, not being smart.
Joe, I don’t think it’s prudent nor demonstrates Christian charity to call someone a lier when you have no direct evidence to the contrary to the statement being made and the comment was not directed to you in the first place.
Considering PB’s issues with the truth in the past, I don’t think its terribly uncouth to doubt what he’s said.
Fool me once and all that.
LIAAR!!!!
Sorry, it bugged me.
Personally, I’d like some contact information of say, a half dozen people who PB claimed told him “I’m taking a break from Christ to do some fat bong hits”.
First of all is is liAr not lier. Secondly, you said I called him a liar. I never did. I said I had a hard time believing it as he presented it. When I think someone is a liar, I’ll call them a liar. I will actually type the words “You are a liar.”
For instance, I think you are being very judgmental and jumping to huge conclusions that aren’t there. I think you’re being a pain. I’ve got no problems saying what I think. What does bother me is when people give me a lecture for saying something I didn’t say.
I’ve told John I thought he was lying before, I’ll probably do it again. I didn’t do it today.
I’ve personally never heard any say they were going to “fornicate.”
#42.
You’re entitled to that opinion. 2 things:
1. I didn’t call him a liar
2. Poor Jesus, he lacked Christian Charity. (John 8:44)
You took the words right from my fingertips…
Seriously, if someone is willing to repeat falsehoods about someone like, say Rob Bell, why should I believe anything else he has to say?
The boy who cried wolf and all that…
I have a hard time believing there were “literally hundreds” as well. I’m a pastor’s kid, so I know enough not to trust most of them…
That’s cause you don’t hang around enough nursing homes.
Nathaniel,
No, I was refering to **my** comment that Joe considers EVERYTHING that PB says to be a lie. That was hyperbole. I don’t literally think Joe believes that in the absolute sense. Just detecting a pattern.
However, “literally hundreds of drunken college approached me” — yes I could image a scene where a street preacher approached a smaller group of drunk kids who yelled that out and then scores of others around him picked up on it and “joined in” the chorus. But I would take the statement as hyperbole and/or an exaggeration. But couild absolutely believe the core truth of the story happened.
Thanks for the clarification, brother.
LIAAR!!!!
You know. I thought “lier” looked wrong, but it looked better than “lyer” so I went with it.
They have that kind of energy in the nursing homes in your area?
John,
How should one express disbelief about what is being said?
Medicaide covers viagra now. Remember that the next time you go to visit grandma.
So at what point does a description of reality that describes something other than reality become a lie?
Core truth? Ha.
Also as a point of reference: Saying I don’t believe what you are saying is different than calling someone a liar. They teach that in teaching 101. You can’t call a student a liar, you can say that you don’t believe the facts as they are presented. If you don’t like that, I can’t help you.
Some lines should just not be crossed.
Bo, you just ran up to it and jumped over it!
“You are being a pain”. Then obviously I am not living up to Ephesians 4:9 and need to reassess my approach.
Yes, but He is God and we are not.
Phil, yes “100’s” is a widely accepted evangelistic number and should be taken as such
That’s a cop out. He was also fully human.
No doubt the “story” is true… yet the interpretation to me is suspect… Though I suspect that at least most of those students were from heavily legalistic churches like John’s and wanted to push his buttons… and did…
Really, I doubt all of those students were actual Christians… maybe some… but not all.
Fair enough. It just seems PB is the whipping post (whether deserved or not) and as this site strives to set a higher standard I just don’t see a redemptive intent with most dialogues with him.
But I apologize if I crossed the line with my extrapolations with your comment. Looking back on you comment I guess you were as diplomatic as could be with your inference.
Peace.
True. John could not have possibly known how many were Christians. Again, hyperbole, perfectly acceptable to homeys, fuel for the fire for those who are not.
Hyperbole is acceptable when its plainly hyperbole.
This doesn’t have the earmarks of hyperbole.
Even if the story is perfectly true and pure as the driven snow, so what? What is PB’s point? We all know people use some conversion experience to suggest at the base level they are OK.
I do not understand what his point was except to infer some of us here don’t get it. I get it, I get it. The spring break genre is a treasure trove of fasle spiritual beliefs. I get it.
Some blogs are a treasure trove of false spiritual beliefs as well.
I’ll look forward to the “christian charity” towards me from you that so vigorously call for PB.
Chriatian charity must be earned. So far all of you are in debt.
I have seen worse assaults on John. These seem to be misdemeanors. And as far as incoming from John, well “I love the smell of napalm on a blog”.
See #63.
If that sincere apology is not good enough then what else could I do for you Joe? I would come wash your feet but it might take awhile to get there from Houston. And I probably would come to your defense if the situation warranted by the way.
PB is at least being faithful to his worldview and appears to be out on the front lines and witnessing more in one week than I have in years. I respect that and that goes a long way in my book. I don’t necessarily see that with Ingrid and Ken. Do I agree with his approach in everything? No. Heck I don’t agree with myself half the time.
John, are you a writer here? For some reason I thought you were but now I’m thinking not so much.
Either way, I apologize for #67. I was being snarky.
I have video of the people surrounding our ministry saying they love Jesus, are Christians, and though, not using the word fornicate, describe sexual acts outside of marriage they plan on participating in.
preachingjesus777 at you tube….
For just a very few examples….of the hundreds that said the same or something very similar….while the f bombs and the blasphemy dropped from their lips.
I dont know how many were Christians…but I know I won’t get a coconut from an orange tree…just sayin’
John – what in the world is your point? Am I shocked? I’ve met people who say all the right things who were later revealed as phony. I just do not get your point, we all know people who abuse the gospel.
Are you suggesting we don’t understand about deceived people? Paul said we should not use grace for uncleanness, and we all have known people who do. It is wrong and eternally dangerous.
Yes, indeed, what is your point? That teenagers or ‘young’ adults take advantage of grace? Live like the devil? Blaspheme? Get drunk? That people on spring break succumb to the flesh? That they might not be Christians at all?
And?
If you preached the Gospel, you did all you could do. What do you care about anything else?
Exactly.
There is no such thing as “Cheap Grace” as Grace is from God and came at the price of the death of Jesus on the Cross… biblically there is only cheap faith as God gives the gift of faith to people and what they do with it is either accept Jesus or not.
Cheap faith comes from legalistic churches and from erroneous teaching about what faith and grace are. If one is truly touched by Grace and experience it, then they become slaves to righteousness… what happens is people are taught that they can come to Jesus by faith and live as they want… and never die to themselves and live the Resurrected Life of Christ.
Everyone still sins and has to deal with their shortcomings, yet to blatantly and purposely go out to engage in fornication means that they have not understood grace or experienced it.
There are professing christians, yet one needs to be possessed by God… we were bought and paid for at the Cross… so to say one is a christian, (though one may have to take their word for it) does not mean they are or have come to a saving knowledge of Jesus.
In John 2 Jesus is followed by “believers” yet the bible states Jesus did not entrust himself with them…meaning he did not believe in them… or their type of belief. It is not that we know Jesus that saves us, but that we are known by Him.
iggy
I found it funny that PB states that one cannot be filled with the Holy Spirit and filled with the spirit of liquor… well so much for Martin Luther! LOL!
I agree with the main point but to make not drinking alcohol part of the salvation process is making it works…
It was interesting hear the love of God from John… “my dog listens better than you!” Good grief! He insults them and then wonders why the people casted insults at him?
I do appreciate John’s courage, but really I see that this sort of “preaching” is a waste of time… just as the Bull Horn Guy video expresses.
“I used to be like you!” but now I am sooooo much better…
iggy
John – I understand what is meant by cheap grace. I may not use that terminology, but I understand what is meant. I agree some people use the gospel as an excuse to live for themselves.
But may I offer another term? I will call it expensive grace. It means that some demand certain ecclesiastical constructs and certain narrow behavioral manifestations before the will “award” God’s grace upon them.
Joe,
XXXOOO
(In a holy kiss kind of way, of course).
You know, upon reflection of all of this I came to realize that if I had a daughter at Spring Break caught up in the partying, drugs and sex that I would thank God if someone like PB confronted her and her sin with even the slightest chance that she would come to her senses. I could live with any perceived rudeness and bless that legalist to the day he died if he was used to turn my daughter from a path of spiritual as well as possible physical destruction.
There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven–
A time to give birth and a time to die; A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted.
A time to kill and a time to heal; A time to tear down and a time to build up.
A time to weep and a time to laugh; A time to mourn and a time to dance.
A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones; A time to embrace and a time to shun embracing.
A time to search and a time to give up as lost; A time to keep and a time to throw away.
A time to tear apart and a time to sew together; A time to be silent and a time to speak.
A time to love and a time to hate; A time for war and a time for peace.
John – of course, and I am sure that happens. But there are others who witness and minister in different ways. I have preached on the beach, and people I know drive their cars as taxis for drunken teens and offer a word to the teens as they drive like “apples of gold in pictures of silver”. And these believers do not inventory the goofy statements made by deceived teens as proof of their deception.
I know God uses PB, but it does not mean there are not better ways.
I agree this quote is innappropriate.
Here are some quotes that are more innappropriate:
“Christ did not die for everyone”.
“Painted girls of Sodom”.
“By the way she and her colleague are dressed, I’m understanding these male bloggers defense of her more all the time…” (Miley Cyrus)
I hate coarse language, however my definition of coarse is much more inclusive than is SoL’s. I guess you can say anything you wish and claim grace. (cheap?)
Here is another example of “expensive grace”. Ingrid, the queen of salvation judges, remarks:
“Warren beckons to the masses to come join him on that Broad Way that ultimately leads to hell. The wise will recognize “Rick” for what he is and the false gospel he offers, and they will turn instead to obey the voice of the Good Shepherd.”
Rick Warren is not saved and is leading sinners to hell according to Ingrid who has been given x-ray redemption glasses into everyone’s heart. How post modern of God to award that capability to a woman.
The discernment ministries are many times nothing but self gratifying platforms for extreme self righteousness.
Help me understand…
Richard Abanes is now on the clock.
Tick-tock – tick tock
Abanes cannot comment on the original news and views…because he has to know how self serving it does in fact sound.
Wow. just….wow.
Jesus gave out fish sandwiches.
John – Do you believe Rick Warren is not saved and is leading sinners to hell?
1. Yes?
2. No?
I believe Rick Warren is saved.
I believe he is leading lost sinners to hell, sometimes. His half Gospel and what I am reading in his news and views reinforces the fact that there will be many more false conversions this Saturday than real ones.
It breaks my heart.
Then you disagree with Ingrid since she categorically states Warren is on the broad way. At least your view has some balance, John.
Really?
They’re not going to remove a lot of church political stuff that bores the daylights out of new believers who really want to hear about sharing their faith and what the Bible says about giving and sacrifical living?
I’m glad you read the fine print.
I missed that.
#6 – We will not be bashing gays, demeaning Miley, hating Ravi, protesting clinics, or other important issues of a deep Christian life.
Rick Warren has been used greatly by God. Many people are serving Christ today through the purpose model. I believe that he as well as others sometimes make salvation an equation and inadvertantly manipulate people toward Christ. Let me add an important caveat:
He hos done significantly more for Christ than have I.
BTW – Tithing is legalism and not addressed at all in the New Testament. You cannot espouse sola Scriptura and defend tithing.
Let me try:
#91 – JUST AWESOME!
Thanks, Rick.
Just like PB, I am exercising a lot of projection on that link.
But I like mine better…obviously.
Can I give this one a shot since I worked on the “Membership Team” at Saddleback and went to Class 101 each month?
So PB, it is better not to speak of things you know not of.
Obviously, John B., you are the broad way that leads to destruction.
I am appalled. I am not a fan of Ingrid, but I agree with most of her points except her last paragraph. I do not discount RW’s positive impact on many individuals and programs, but this **particular** appeal is pathetic and heartbreaking and so misses the heart of the Gospel and the cross that they are unrecognizable.
Make no mistake, RW is marketing a church membership at Saddleback pure and simple just like he markets PDL, with appeals to the flesh in feeding the celebrity worship fashioned after the world and the what’s in it for me mentality. The only thing that was missing was “all this can be yours for $19.99″. At least it’s free, I guess.
Well have at it! I am sure RW will meet his goal and SB will get its bragging rights! Woo Hoo!
An unfounded assertion.
I’m appalled because in countless countries across this globe from China to the Sudan Christians literally willingly risk life and limb, the confiscation of their property and loss of their family when they profess Christ and are baptisted, while here in America it’s considered a good and commendable thing to bribe the “target audience” with free books and one-on-one time with a celebrity. News flash to RW: Church history is made on the blood of the saints, not the membership role of SB. What utter audacity.
How true the Scriptures:
And it’s not just RW or SB. It’s American Christianity and it’s me. We are sick, sick, sick. So, please go right on ahead in defending this utter, utter crap.
God help us.
[Rick: I think I hear that missing altar of intercession calling as the tears are certainly not far behind].
John – you are correct, Rick Warren is overly pragmatic and overly merchandises his church, books, and other things. I think his motives are pure, and he and his wife do some great things for African AIDs sufferers.
However, when you openly say that not only is Rick Warren not saved, but he is actively leading multitudes to hell, that trumps any legitimate points you might make.
Ingrid’s self righteousness is far worse than Rick Warren’s merchandising. Pride and self righteousness is the ultimate enemy of Christ.
John,
You are often a reasoned voice in these comment sections, repectfully disagreeing and bringing a different and necessary perspective to this site.
However, comments like this
portray a certain bitterness and what appears to be deep wounding.
Of course Rick would wholeheartedly agree with the fact that church history as a whole is not hinging on SB membership.
Why the dripping sarcasm?
I agree that American Christianity is spoiled and our focus is almost exclusively off.
But to assign motives to this pastor who is reaching this culture for Christ seems wrong to me.
Am I going to “defend this utter, utter crap”?
I don’t know. But I don’t know Rick personally. So unless you do, please be careful what you post publically.
I don’t know.
I just don’t know.
Boy, and I thought I was cynical. I don’t know – I guess I’m willing to give Warren the benefit of a doubt on some of this stuff. The standard we hold others to is the one we’ll be judged by, and, frankly, I wouldn’t want someone second guessing every decision I make as a leader. I’ve had people serving under me who’ve taken it upon themselves to do that, and let me just say it gets old quick. It also seems that those who scream the loudest are the hardest to get to do anything…
I have never met Rick Warren either, but I think I know him. He is me, sincerely in love with Jesus but sincerely flawed. He, like I, have used methods to reach npeople that sometimes attract with those methods and not Christ. He, like I, have sometimes made mistakes in a sincere attempt to serve my Lord.
He, like I, have sometimes wrested Scripture and not realized I was doing so. He, like I, have used some metoaphors and illustrations in my messages that looking back were ill advised. He, like I, have come across as self serving and prideful and sometimes not even realized I came across like that. He, like I, have seen sinners receive Christ under my ministry only to find out they were not genuine.
Oh yea, I know this Rick Warren. I see him in the mirror in my bathroom.
Rick,
You are either really deep or slightly psychotic or a little of both.
Good thoughts.
Ya know…this obsession over methods is really kinda dumb.
I mean, do people out there obscure the message of the Gospel with some goofy things at times?
Yes.
But what about Paul being thankful that people preached Christ regardless of their motives?
People need to put their money where their mouths are and live out their dry, dessicated intellectual commitment…ooops, sorry…I mean, obsession with God’s sovereignty.
sheeesh.
Besides, as Rick is so fond of pointing out…
if it’s all predestined by the sovereign eternal decrees of God…
then why, oh why, oh why the hell are any of them getting that upset?
sheeeeeeyeeeeeeesh
I don’t see what’s inappropriate about Perry Noble’s response at all. He’s absolutely right.
He used a bad word… thus everything he says is automatically wrong. I wish I were joking.
Either Rick Warren is taking people to hell or he’s just playing the part he’s meant to play.
Which is, O great defenders of the Reformation?
Some of you crazy people just like it both ways because it feeds your masturbatory fixation with being angry to the glory of yourself.
nc,
On this comment thread, because there are two Rick’s, Mr. Warren and Mr. Frueh, please refer to the latter as the Supreme Pontificate and Esteemed Reverend Sir Richard (the Judah Lion Hearted) Frueh
They should be feeling conviction rather than outraged. The fact that they cover up their own sin with fingerpoint over the word @$$hole (even censored like that) is ridiculous.
What’s really funny if you go to read the source of that quote, Perry Noble is complimenting John Piper. Also, his response is probably not all that unusual. I’m sure lots of people have rejected Reformed theology in general due to the assholes that are the loudest on the internet.
To paraphrase Ghandi, I like your Piper, I do not like your ADMs.
It’s like the old story about Tony Campolo where he says:
(I can actually vouch that he has said this at least once, because I was in the audience when he said it at Penn State…)
Ingrid has really outdone herself with this latest Warren critique.
First, she misquotes Warren, who said he wanted a repeat of Pentecost, claiming that he wanted a “second” Pentecost.
She then puts up an entirely new post, mocking Warren on the basis of an earlier desirea few years ago to see a repeat of Pentecost. According to Ingrid, Warren is suffering from a memory lapse.
Ingrid: a quick tip. You do not get to misquote people, and then use the false quote to mock them. That dishonors Christ.
Your blog, quite simply, dishonors Christ.
Will do!
Can we just abbreviate it to the following:
SPERSRF?
110:
That probably goes for Christians in general, sadly.
As far as being angry about the word…
well…
I would guess this is just a case of loving “truth” only when it’s not directed at yourself.
In the interest of relating to the common man, you all may refer to me simply as “Pontificate”. I will understand.
MG – I am fairly sure the reformed crowd would rather ignore the word “Pentecost” altogether. To them being filled with the Spirit means memorizing Romans chapter 9 and being able to snear when you say the name “Warren”.
“Excellency” or “Your Grace” will be fine by me.
Just so you know, when I print #@!!*&% I mean “goofballs”. That is as far as I go, however nc has me stumble and use the word crap.
I have been tempted to place dog or bull or liberal in front of it, but I just cannot escape my own bondage.
Ironically enough there’s a story on ??N.com’s front page that condemns Perry’s accurate usage of “asshole” and in it includes a video from Mr. Hugh Jass himself.
I guess its all about who you agree with. So much for integrity.
#94 Its comments like this
That drive me crazy. Christ is not a cancer or a crazed relative that we accept. It is the response I heard from drunken fornicators who called themselves Christians…I accepted Christ! All I have to do is ask for forgiveness!
The question is not did I receive or accept Christ…it is that has he received or accepted you…(See John 2)
Like I said….it is very likely that there will be 3-4 times as many false conversions as a result of this little marketing stunt. More people that evangelists will have to reteach so that they can actually be saved instead of just becoming a member of a bloated pd church.
PB,
What do you think of John 1:12?
Here is the commentary from the ESV Study Bible….My Greek exegesis later….
There is something to be said on both sides of this argument.
Let me say that right now I am in the market for a new minivan, so I am steadily being hit with marketing stuff, trying to “upsell” the options. Reading RW’s list of “extras” and the way they are being “sold” is distasteful and wreaks of a “March Madness” or “Month End Clearance” more than a sincere plea from a man of God to have people repent and turn to the Lord. That’s the impression I get.
Someone here said that methods were not all that important. I disagree. This ill-advised gentleman (French pole vaulter runs thru Paris naked) is apparently raising funds for charity, among other things.
RW’s appeal comes out as cheap. Almost like, “Give it a shot! It’ll be a blast!” But it meshes well with our culture of fleshly gratification, so it will definitely work in driving more people into the pool, just “for the fun of it.” Will some people ultimately be genuinely converted? Perhaps so… God only knows.
On the other hand, I wouldn’t doubt that RW believes what he’s doing is a-OK and is convinced that a “fire sale” baptism is justified (note, there’s no urgency – as in the NT to be free of your sins – the urgency is “Don’t miss this one-time, weekend event! Don’t pay until 2012!”). God knows his motives and heart’s desire, in the end.
I have witnessed a number of people (both here and overseas) who have been extended a “false conversion” only to return the next day – literally – to a live of slavery to sin. The concept of salvation was presented as something you do at a point in time, as opposed to a faith life lived in glory to God. It is destructive when people count “decision cards” as if these avail anything at the heavenly throne. No… but it goes a long way to rousing more funds from donors.
Well, if the ESV commentary says it…
All you did was explicate “receive,” which doesn’t address your first point, that merely *using* words like “accept” or “receive” is illicit.
So, which is it? Is it impermissible to use such language, despite John 1:12, or are you mad that you met individuals who haven’t submitted to Christ? (Assuming your spiritual goggles are working perfectly)
All I’ll say is that I hope all those pastors who are criticizing Warren’s and other people’s methods are happy when they get people in their church harping on them about what songs are sung on Sunday or what color the offering baskets are.
We reap what we sow…
Just remember all doesn’t mean all and the world doesn’t mean the world. BAM you’re a calvinist.
Yeah. Pastor Jass…
He’s the picture of integrity.
What a joke.
You highminded lurkers…
think about it.
Is Mr. Johnson’s going on and on as Hugh Jass really that acceptable to you now that he’s tried to hide all evidence of it, has his buddies on the pyro blog acting all shocked and self-righteous to “protect” him when it’s mentioned there and because he’s taking Driscoll and others to task?
Really?
REally?
So in your world you don’t need to repent or own things?
I get it.
Until that changes all of you shove your so-called sola scriptura that you claim to so dearly love.
You people are a joke.
Unfortunately there are false conversions in every church. My two older boys made professions of faith when they were in their early teens and we were in a small Southern Baptist church. They had gone to a christian summer camp and made a profession of faith there and then were baptized at our church. They have both told me that they were not saved then and my oldest son is wanting to be baptized again. Even in a church that clearly proclains the gospel it can happen. Even though they had both made professions of faith I had continued to pray for my boys not knowing if it was real for them or not. All we can do is clearly proclaim the gospel and leave the results up to the Holy Spirit. Paul C , very well said.
We all use phraseology that is to some extent innaccurate, but we all know what the other means. Being a stickler about terms is…goofy and wreaks of phrase legalism.
Funny how Perry Nobel censors his words while Chris R did not in his original post referring to Bill Cosby… UNTIL I called him on it… Not one post over at CRN on it…
And it is back sort of!
Hypocrites and white washed tombs… at least that is what Jesus called them…
iggy
Nathanial said, (in part)
And I would add that when Warren does get involved in the messy side and really difficult part of Christianity, like feeding the poor, taking care of the orphans and widows. then he gets criticized for the “social gospel”. Here I would roll my eyes. LOL
I have never been a hero-worshipper and yes it bothered me when people would drive several miles to Saddleback because it was “Rick Warren’s” church and pass up good churches on the way. That is sadly the way people are. They want to be part of “the big.” It’s sad but it’s not necessarily sinful.
SB started at least one church every year and many of those where mere miles away in the same city or county. One a mile away. Another 3 miles away. Warren only speaks half the time. He shares the pulpit with better speakers than he and the numbers show it. Most senior pastor’s egos couldn’t handle it.
No, I don’t agree with Warren on everything. I would have simply said, “I’ll be teaching CLASS 101 and baptizing afterwords this week”. They already give away PDL every month anyway. But I’m not willing to ascribe motives to Warren on this. Do you think he REALLY needs the publicity? Could it be possible that he really has a desire for people to be involved in the church and grow? (You can’t be a volunteer leader if you aren’t a member.)
Anyone who feeds the poor, cares for the widows, and stands as a father to orphans:
1. Hates Scripture
2. Is socializing the gospel
3. Desires attention
4. Is post modern
5. Is a compromiser
6. And misrepresents the Christ
7. Adds works to salvation
Only – and I mean ONLY – Scripture communicated through.
Anyone who feeds the poor, cares for the widows, and stands as a father to orphans:
1. Hates Scripture
2. Is socializing the gospel
3. Desires attention
4. Is post modern
5. Is a compromiser
6. And misrepresents the Christ
7. Adds works to salvation
Only – and I mean ONLY – Scripture communicated through some form of the Westminster Confession is the ministry of Jesus.
My post #94 corrects some baseless attacks of P-Boy’s post #83 point by point and this is his only response?
I’m sorry to drive you crazy John. Take it up with the other John. The apostle one. Then maybe you should admit to your lies and apologize but I won’t hold my breath.
Hey Pontificate Rick….
I saw where you said you grew up in a “Jack Hyles church” or maybe even Hyle’s church itself. I’m sorry. But I do share your pain. Many of my high school “teechters” came from there. I went to those kind of churches too…..then a calvinist reformed church. Go figure. My dad really swung from extreme to extreme. Seriously.
I am a recovering fundy calvy.
Truth is I lean towards a more reformed view but allow for a view that we don’t understand it all. If we did, it would be pretty much a settled issue. But like most people here, I just can’t understand all of the angst against improper methods or even message if you take a full predestined pov. Surely there would be something better to do with your time…..unless you just enjoyed judging others. Hmmmmm?
Yes, John, you have removed the emperor’s clothes. When the Calvinist camp complains about false messages it has the ring of the ultimate straw man. And since they never stop, it becomes a straw man beating a dead horse!
Jack Hyles became a cult-like figure. His church in Hammond is now a mild seeker style! Can you imagine? But to be faithful to the Jesus model you must maintain an aura of visceral, invective laced, personally demeaning, spiritually dismissive, salvation doubting, and verbally hateful verbiage that people quickly recognize as the Good Shepherd.
The fire breathing Jesus is much more authentic than the cross enduring model which paints Him as much too genteel.
LOL. Your posts crack me up.
At the risk of being off topic (as if that never happens here) I follow all of the antics of First Baptist Church Hammond, Indiana over at the Fighting Fundamentalist Forums. That place makes here look like a blog operated under the “regulative principle” except they won’t let you cuss much over there.
Check this doctrine out by Hyles son-in-law and current Polyester Pope; He is preaching that communion is a representation of sexual intercourse with God. And some verse, forgot which one, that says “stuck” is akin to penetration in that act!!!!! Holy Batman! And that is just some of the current wackiness.