Obama wants to forbid church attendance… or so some say. Every time this kind of hype and hysteria is promoted, Christianity in general, and individual Christians in particular lose a little more credibility. And (just maybe) rightfully so. This time it is in response to a bill that would create a youth corps which would require anyone receiving school loans and others to serve at least three months as part of the brigade.
I admit from the outset that I have not studied, nor read, HR1388. Nor do I need to, since I am not addressing the bill at issue (it’s a pet peeve of mine when some condemn a book they have not read, a movie they have not watched, etc….); what I am addressing is the hype and hysteria of this article.
The title makes a pretty amazing accusation. The Obama Youth brigade forbids church attendance – simple statement of fact, there is no hint that this is a question – it is presented as fact.
The article begins with the necessary data on HR 1388:
This bill’s title is called “Generations Invigorating Volunteerism and Education” (GIVE). It forms what some are calling “Obama’s Youth Brigade.” Obama’s plan is require anyone receiving school loans and others to serve at least three months as part of the brigade. His goal is one million youth! This has serious Nazi Germany overtones to it.
It’s that final phrase that introduces the hype, hysteria, and the first crack in credibility. “This has serious Nazi Germany overtones to it” – seriously? OK, I see the parallel between the so-called Obama Brigade and Hitler Youth in the Governmental sponsored youth organization sense. But lots of countries have youth organizations and they are not Neo-Nazi. If we used this kind of logic, any gathering of religious people that serves flavored water could be said to have “serious Johnstown overtones to it.”
That silliness aside, the real issue is stated in the next paragraph:
The Bill would forbid any student in the brigade to participate in “engaging in religious instruction, conducting worship services, providing instruction as part of a program that includes mandatory religious instruction or worship, constructing or operating facilities devoted to religious instruction or worship, maintaining facilities primarily or inherently devoted to religious instruction or worship, or engaging in any form of religious proselytization.” That means no church attendance or witnessing.
This followed by a few select lines from the actual bill. They are:
SEC. 1304. PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES AND INELIGIBLE ORGANIZATIONS.
Section 125 (42 U.S.C. 12575) is amended to read as follows:
SEC. 125. PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES AND INELIGIBLE ORGANIZATIONS.
(a) Prohibited Activities- A participant in an approved national service position under this subtitle may not engage in the following activities:
(1) Attempting to influence legislation.
(2) Organizing or engaging in protests, petitions, boycotts, or strikes.
…(7) Engaging in religious instruction, conducting worship services, providing instruction as part of a program that includes mandatory religious instruction or worship, constructing or operating facilities devoted to religious instruction or worship, maintaining facilities primarily or inherently devoted to religious instruction or worship, or engaging in any form of religious proselytization.
According to this article the bill would require those receiving student loans to serve three months in a civil corps. [As an aside, I think this is a great idea... what better way to stem the tide of entitlement than require a little "sweat-equity?"] The article also says that being part of the brigade “means no church attendance or witnessing.” According to the article, the Bill would prohibit any student from participating in worship, religious education, and witnessing.
But is that what it really says? When I read the quoted portions of HR1388 it read as these religious activities were not eligible as fulfillment of the three months of service. It does not say anything about forbidding church attendance or witnessing… you just cannot work off your three months leading worship, teaching the Bible, or mowing the church yard.
Now, it is possible that the bill does in fact say, that for the three months you belong to the brigade you cannot attend any worship service, receive and religious instruction, or even talk about your religion – but I doubt it. But even of it does, this article does not come close to demonstrating this fact.
All this article does (and others like it by the the accumulative effect) is lessen our credability in the arena of ideas by making Christians appear unable to discern nuances of meaning, or make credible and logical arguments.
(HT: Slice of Laodicea)
213 Comments(+Add)
Neil – Obviously you have your head in the sand. Our rights as Americans are being dismantled piece by piece and people like you do not care. In case you do not know, Madeline Murray O’Hare is sponsoring a bill that would remove all Christian programs off the radio.
Wake up, people!
Christians that deal in hype, sensationalism, inaccuracies, dubious alarms, and all sorts of “the British are coming” hyperbole do make Christians appear ridiculous to the world. The blog itself says it is dedicated to “Advancing Christian Life and Culture”, which is the Great Commission to some believers.
On April 1st I won’t believe anything Pontificate Frueh writes…
I wonder what the Christians of Nero’s day would say about panicked/incensed articles about how anti-Christian our gov’t is (ya know, right before the lion ate their faces).
This is a hard one, and it honestly challenges my faith.
Christians, in essence, proclaim to the world that we have some insight into the way the world really is. We have some handle on truth that is lacking with everyone who isn’t a believer.
But if that’s so, why is it that Christians, for the most part, are such poor believers? We tend to have a pretty bad handle on the truth, falling constantly for rumors, and urban myths, and favoring platitudes and cliches over hard thinking.
In other words, if Christians can’t even read a bill correctly, why should someone believe them when they proclaim insight into the most profound mysteries of the world?
This is when I feel most discouraged by the ODMs.
Eugene, I think Rick’s 3rd paragraph illustrates that his first paragraph was a bit facetious.
Chris, we can shut down comments on this one. No one’s gonna say anything more profound.
Well done, MG
A good deal of politics is motivated by hysteria, I believe. This reminds me of the rumors that went around a few years ago that said GWB was going to reinstate the draft. Both sides of the aisles are running about neck and neck when it comes to silliness right now.
By the way, if the whole AmeriCorps thing does ever get off the ground, I think its ad slogan should be, “We’re from the government, and we’re here to help”…
Neil,
You do have your head in the sand on this one.
This is in fact worded from the article such:
In other words, while you are a participant in the youth corps, you may not participate in the following…
You Obamaphobes are going to be supporting him all the way when he desires to put a mark on your hand or forehead.
Why would someone who is scared of Obama (i.e. an “Obamaphobe”) be supporting him when he desires to put a mark on hands and foreheads?
That doesn’t make any sense.
John, you should leave the big boy words to the big boys and girls.
PB, although it’s a totally baseless insult, I think you meant “Obamaphiles“. The SoL article is a perfect example of “Obamaphobia“.
Also, the prohibited activities are those done *as part of one’s responsibilities* as a member of GIVE.
In other words, you cannot get paid by the government to work for the church.
That seems like a good idea to me, familiar even…
It does not mean that you can’t “attend worship services” or share your faith on your own time.
actually it was supposed to be Obamafobes
sorry
12
Wrong…
A participant in an approved national service…..may not participate in…
Very clear.
You Obamafobs files, or whatever, read his legislation with the same rose colored glasses you read the scriptures. Why am I not surprised? I mean…you same people actually believed he would reduce abortions…..
PB,
I don’t trust Obama further than I could throw him, but I do believe Neil is correct on this one. If it were actually forcing where people involved in this service could attend services, it would be blatantly unconstitutional (granted, that hasn’t seemed to deter our elected officials before), and I think even the most liberal judges would throw it out if it were saying that.
All that paragraph is saying is that someone couldn’t go on staff at a church or mosque or other religious group and count it as volunteer time as laid out in the bill.
PB,
The reason the interpretation I offered strikes me as reasonable is that amended 1304 was offered by John Boehner of Ohio.
He’s a Republican, PB.
Is he in on the conspiracy as well?
http://repcloakroom.house.gov/UploadedFiles/GIVE_Act_MTR_111.pdf
It could just be me, but I think the ones with their heads in the sand are those whose interpretation of the wording of the GIVE propostion is tainted by their already-made-up minds.
I’ve been wrong before…just not lately.
So I guess that means I’m due.
I am not a Republican- I am a Christian.
If what Neil says is true, if that is his interpretation of it, then fine. But it is poorly worded if that is the case.
Still want to hear from you Obama fans how when he said he would reduce abortions that you fell for that line hook line and sinker.
Sounds like the same word play here…
PB,
As a general rule, all legislation is poorly drafted. It’s one reason why we a court system. That said, if the bill really was enforced to prevent church attendance, it would be struck down so quickly your head would spin.
Who here has claimed to be an Obama fan, exactly?
The point is that many Christians seem to operate with the mentality of the “ends justify the means” when it comes to politics. If we are willing to lie, cheat, and steal just to win politically, then we’ve already lost.
I’m an Obamafiletroglodytephobiac. I’m for him but only when I’m in my cave. If I ever step out of it I get afraid.
Of course the same thing happens whenever I venture out and head over to SoL.
Absolutely no one. It’s a (totally invalid) assumption on PB’s part.
And also the inspiration for a new post. Thanks, PB.
All I recall is making the rather modest statement that it is possible both to have voted for Obama and be a believer, which PB disagreed with.
Also, I must say I love how quickly PB wishes to change the subject when he’s shown that his position is nothing short of absurd.
If you defend Rick Warren against false accusations, you are a Rick Warren fan.
If you speak up for Rob Bell when his quotes are manipulated and twisted, you are one of his deceived followers.
If you point out the fallacy of someone’s interpretation of a proposal drafted by our current administration, you are an Obama fan.
Any other questions?
#19
No, MG, I have already stated that if Neil’s interpretation is correct, then cool. But it is at the least very poorly worded. I also disagree that if someone was prevented from evangelizing/going to church that it would be shut down.
But I am curious….where are all the people on this site who said that they were pro life and voting for Obama because he would reduce abortions? I think it is a legitimate question.
My view is not absurd, unless you are a PBHater.
PB serves as a perfect example of this article.
He can’t even read modern day english properly, what makes anyone think he can interpret scripture properly?
Stay with OP.
PB – I’m on record as saying I’d like to see him fail spectacularly w/o doing lasting damage to the US in the process…
I’ve toyed (in the past) with doing a series in the structure of:
“Obama the Pro-Life President #X: [Insert title of next pro-abortion policy]”
But that would require a couple of things I can’t accommodate right now:
1) It would require me to engage with news media. You can ask Zan – I’ve not watched a single news broadcast in 4 months and purposely ignored anything/everything about the Obamessiah during that time-frame, as well. I couldn’t care less about him or his administration.
2) I would have to engage in believing my b*tching about him could change something. The country voted, let them live w/ the consequences…
Cynical? yes. I’m much more interested in religion than politics, and the two mix far too much in the US, so I’m just gonna choose to follow one for now…
Well, I’m unaware of anyone here who said that they were voting for Obama because they were convinced that abortions would go down.
Having said that, the abortion rate has been declining steadily for more than twenty years. The drop was greater under Clinton than Bush, so you could make the argument that Clinton was more pro-life than Bush.
I don’t know if I buy that myself.
I’m confused though, are there studies of the abortion rate over the last two and a half months?
Perhaps, just perhaps, this sentiment is what fueled the wording of the proposition.
Perhaps our current administration, in an effort to keep politics from mixing with religion, drafted Section 125, Number 7.
Perhaps.
Beside the point of this post. Yet another attempt to change the subject due to a lost battle,
PS–even though I wrote a post here saying that I won’t act toward BO the way the ‘other side’ acted toward George W Bush, I also want to go on the record as stating that I am no fan of his at all.
And, furthermore, even though Neil has a point, I wouldn’t be surprised if that was BO’s point indeed. However, that might not be a bad thing.
One of the worst things that government has ever done was initiate things like ‘faith based initiatives.’ It is a dangerous, dangerous game mixing religion and politics. It is a downright anathema to mix Christianity with Americanism.
As far as I know there’s no federal law requiring the reporting of abortion statistics.
I did a little poking around and it turns out three states: California, New Hampshire and Alaska do not collect statistics on abortion.
Any sort of statistical analysis is just about impossible as a result of this. Which is why I roll my eyes when alleged media member Ingrid Schleuter uncritically accepts a report about abortions going up as a result of the recession.
Never mind that it came too soon for any stats to be in, it can never be conclusive.
But hey, why let the facts get in the way of a good self-righteous rant that reinforces what you already believe.
I still have lost no battle….
The wording CLEARLY states that if you are in an approved national service position….you cannot…participate….in …..
I hope it is just poor wording….
But…you Obama fans also hoped he was pro-life… you were proven wrong by his legislation.
Where is Tony Jones?
I kindly request we all not take my post in a direction unintended and tangential. The issue is NOT Obama in general and certainly NOT abortion in particular.
The issues/questions raised are:
1 (primary) the hysterical nature of the inked article and how it reflects poorly on Christians
2 (secondary) the correct meanin of the Bill’s prohibitions.
Neil
I think that IF one cannot participate it is because they are receiving gov’t money so it can be perceived as being paid by the gov’t to back on party over the other. In a way that is a good idea.
But still I do not see how this is connected to no longer being able to attend churches.
iggy
If this is the case, it also CLEARLY prohibits…
1) voting
2) signing a petition
3) joining a union
Do you really believe that the Bill would prohibit people from voting while participating in GIVE? This is part of the section entitle PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES AND INELIGIBLE ORGANIZATIONS.
So it is CLEARLY describing activities and organizations that are ineligible from receiving benefits from GIVE.
Bo,
Your comment #26 was uncalled for and inappropriate. Please do not attack anyone in such a personal manner.
Neil
PB,
You, quite simply, need to read the entire bill to understand what John Boehner, Republican from Ohio, intended when he raised the amendment. Bills often provide definitions early on so as to give precise meanings to terminology to the rest of the bill.
Besides, prohibiting church attendence or faith sharing is absurd, and blatantly unconstitutional.
Your concerns over the bill are, to be blunt, idiotic.
Take out the ad hominem phrase “on this site”, and it is a legitimate question that I have raised myself.
But in the comment thread of this post, it has all the legitimacy of Al Sharpton at a Klan rally.
Whether or not the Bill prohibits church attendance is SECONDARY… our very discussion shows that it is unclear.
That said, the PRIMARY point of the OP is the “news” article with the headline that makes a statement of (unknown) fact.
How are Christian supposed to be taken seriously by non christians on real issues (such as abortion) when hyperbole like this strips us of credibility?
And let’s not gloss over Ingrid’s hysterical “Nazi-style youth brigade” swipe.
#37
Does that include ACORN?
MG, as a history/social science teacher, with experience and graduate education which includes political science, I know how bills are worded and amended.
I have seen the manipulation of terms in government before, this is why it concerns me. My concerns are legitimate, and not idiotic. I should think if one cares about his/her constitutional rights, they would take notice if there were any possibility that they could be abridged.
I have more concern with his FOCA, with his desire to abridge talk radio, ‘hate’ speech…etc. His equal protection attempts are also of concern. I would hate to have an athiest as an associate pastor. That said, the very wording of this bill is that which concerns me. It sounds like they are restricting these things, as outrageous as that would be.
pastorboy: SEC. 125. PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES AND INELIGIBLE ORGANIZATIONS. (a) Prohibited Activities- A participant in an approved national service position under this subtitle may not engage in the following activities……
RA: LoL. Well, since you couldn’t even keep straight why a certain pastor ended up going to jail in an attempt to pass himself off as some kind of righteous martyr, it doesn’t surprise me that you’d get all befuddled in understanding the complexities of a political bill.
First, you do realize that you’re quoting here from an out-of-date form of the bill, right? Oh, silly me, of course you do. Or maybe you don’t. Either:
a. You realized it was out of date, but also realized that it was only by quoting the out of date version of the bill (and its initial/non-clarified wording) that you could you get the affect of fear-mongering you wanted.
OR
b. You didn’t even read the bill. Did you actually read the bill, pastorboy? Or, did you just copy that snippet from some sensationalist, fear-mongering, Natioonal-Enquirer-esk good-ole-boy, God Bless America, get all the commies/socialist, Joseph McCarthy-like website?
Second, let’s take a look at what the bill now actually says, shall we?
It reads: SEC. 1310. PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES AND INELIGIBLE ORGANIZATIONS. . . . ‘SEC. 132A. PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES AND INELIGIBLE ORGANIZATIONS. ‘(a) Prohibited Activities- An approved national service position under this subtitle may not be used for the following activities: . . . (7) Engaging in religious instruction, conducting worship services, providing instruction as part of a program that includes mandatory religious instruction or worship, constructing or operating facilities devoted to religious instruction or worship, maintaining facilities primarily or inherently devoted to religious instruction or worship, or engaging in any form of proselytization, consistent with section 132.
Everybody see that? This clause is designed to make sure no one unfairly uses their “service position” under the program to proselytize their particular religion.
HEY! Guess What? That means no Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Wiccans, or Mormons can use this program to push their own religious agenda. And Christians can’t do it either. Kind of fair, don’t you think? ( see the bill’s text at http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h1388/text ).
And not only can this program not be used by ANY religious group to proselytize, but it also rules it the program “providing a direct benefit to ANY “organization engaged in the religious activities described in paragraph (7).”
In other words, this is a government/civil/secular program that is NOT to be used and NOT to benefit and single religion. Sounds vaguely American to me, and not really at all like Der Fuhrer.
OH AND HEY……LOOK!!! PRO-LIFE ALERT!!!
Under “‘SEC. 132A. PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES AND INELIGIBLE ORGANIZATIONS Prohibited Activities- An approved national service position under this subtitle may not be used for the following activities,” it also says that the program CANNOT be used for “providing ABORTION services or referrals for receipt of such services”!!!!!!!
I would think that you, pastorboy, and so many others, would be thrilled over this one. And yet you, and everyone else, apparently read right past this victory for the pro-life movement!!! Interesting.
And once more, Christians make all Christians look like paranoid, delusional, reactionary, thoughtless, religious zealots who have nothing better to do than run around like nuts yelling about Commies/Socialists, conspiracies, and fear-filled rumors/gossip.
Sigh,
RA
I agree. But which is the better way, asking for clarification and/or pointing out how fuzzy wording could be abused… or jumping to hyper-hysterical conclusions complete with Nazi references?
Again, if this prohibits church attendance it also prohibits voting.
PB,
My point was that you have to read the whole bill.
Did you read the whole bill?
Yes or no.
RA,
Thanks for the clarification of the Bill’s present form.
Neil
(In the future please attack/address the issues and arguments, but treat Pastorboy with the respect due a brother in Christ)
It wasn’t a personal attack. Its a legitimate point. PB’s past behavior includes the inability to consistently understand modern english, case in point is this thread, but also includes misunderstanding statements referring to universal atonement as universalism. So the question remains, if he can’t understand modern english, how can we expect him to properly exegete scripture?
I know this is somewhat tangential, but whenever I hear anyone, especially Christians, use the term “constitutional rights”, I kind of cringe. The constitution doesn’t grant anyone rights. Rights are only granted to us by God. The Constitution was written to protect the rights of citizens, but it doesn’t give anyone anything.
It’s just a pet peeve of mine. If the government grants us rights, then it could certainly take them away.
NEIL: I agree. But which is the better way, asking for clarification and/or pointing out how fuzzy wording could be abused… or jumping to hyper-hysterical conclusions complete with Nazi references?
RA: Pastorboy’s knee-jerk response, as well as the responses of others, is typical for those whose world view is closely linked to fear-based conspiracy theories and an unhealthy paranoia paradigm that is religious based. An excellent book on the psychological mechanics of this mindset can be found in Gregory Camp’s excellent volume titled “SELLING FEAR: Conspiracy Theories and End-Times Paranoia .”
A good example of conspiracy paranoia was seen throughout America during the infamous MacCarthy era of the 1950s wherein everyone and everything pointed to a Commie of a Commie threat. This gradually evolved and merged into a kind of religious zealotry in the 70s, 80s, and 90s that has become a sort of “paranoid style” of U.S. Politics that is deeply embedded in the Christian community (sadly).
For an interesting read, you might want to look at the book “Conspiracy Theories in American History,” by peter Knight, pp. 85-86, under “Apocalypticism.” Knight notes that grandiose conspiracy theories are constructed when people seek to channel their feelings of “persecution and hostility” into a a cohesive, this-makes-sense scenario that basically explains everything and gives a vent for their frustrations. This is also the underlying issues surrounding the practice of scape-goating.
I deal with some of this material in my book, “American Militias: Rebellion, Racism, and Religion.
It’s all very sad and very unhealthy.
peace in him,
RA
“And let’s not gloss over Ingrid’s hysterical “Nazi-style youth brigade” swipe.”
Neil,
Wasn’t the Nazi comment in the Jonas Clark article?
Aside from that, I agree with your premise that Christians can and do harm the cause of the Gospel with hysterics and too much involvement in social commentary and conspiracy theorism. While the church ought to be aware, informed, and not naive, hyperbolic and hysterical social commentary damages credibility, which damages Gospel proclamation (our first priority).
Just as one’s blind loyalty to Obama can lead to bouts of reality-disconnect, blind hatred (or at least serious aversion) can lead to the same.
Neil,
If my wording was too harsh in #44, I apologize to you, PB, and the forum. I was only seeking to make clear that at this point I am indeed, in all sincerity, questioning PB’s willingness/ability/desire to read with clarity, as well as perhaps his desire to even do so. That is not meant as an insult, but a legitimate point of concern. Nevertheless, I will try to keep my posts about such emotional issues far more sterile.
RA
Not in this thread it is not. There is no question of interpreting Scripture here. And given the bad blood between you two I’m not gonna let a swipe like that go unchallenged.
In my OP I said
which means I too see the ambiguity… does this reflect on my ability to exegete Scriptures?
Pastorboy’s insistence on seeing things from an ethnocentric-Christendom-modernist-near-paranoid point-of-view is extremely frustrating. But I insist he be treated with the respect due a brother in Christ.
here is the complete Slice post:
At least she added a question mark to the title.
Richard,
You content was great, it was the reference to another incident I referred to – love keeps no records… or at least doesn’t bring them up as zingers.
Thanks for you response.
Neil
#52
So Abanes is now a political scientist…in addition to a licensed ‘Apologist’.
LOL!
It is this same discernment that allowed his god Rick Warren to pray for the President Elect as he prepared to sign into law FOCA, the use of US funds to promote overseas abortions, research using embryonic stem cells…etc. etc. etc.
Look, I am very happy that this was clarified. I am glad that it seems that there is no reason to be concerned that this legislation will take away from our citizenship rights in this country. These are good things. I still cringe at the fact that this government seems slanted towards abridging my free speech and my faith. All this from a professed ‘christian’.
Regardless, I will proclaim the gospel, even if I must do it from a jail cell, or in line to be executed.
The professed christian I was referring to was Obama.
Christians who complain about politics reveal a certain unchristian tethering to the systems of this world. The “look what they are doing to us now” straw men are just excuses to get the flesh riled up. Little by little discerning believers are beginning to see the futility of complaining and murmering about the government.
The line to become humble martyrs is very short.
The line of bellicose and melodramatic complainers is extremely long.
PS – If you don’t agree with the rules, don’t sign up or worship in your heart. Some have even made worship a political football.
Oh boy… everyone is rebuked for stating things about PB but PB get free reign to state personal attacks against others…
Personally I am tired of that double standard… I mean if I wanted that I would go and read his blog or some other ignorant attack blog.
iggy
As usual, John, your demeaning attitude knows no appropriate limits. How is it you cannot see the sacrilege, much less the unchristianess, in a remark that uses God’s name in such a careless and contrived way?
I guess if you believe in the penal substitutionary view you have carte blanche in other areas. Hatred for Rick Warren is as much a sin as homosexuality.
If PB’s last post was nothing but a personal swipe.
How he can question someone else’s ability to understand English, I don’t know.
Dear PB,
First, I make no claims at being a “political scientist.” And, TBH, I’m not quote sure how/why you’d even raise such a bizarre claim/assertion.
Second, as far as I known, there is no license needed to be an apologist. A house contractor, sure. But an apologist? I don’t think so, as far as I know.
Now, on to a few more of your comments……
___________
PB: It is this same discernment that allowed his god Rick Warren to pray for the President Elect as he prepared to sign into law FOCA, the use of US funds to promote overseas abortions, research using embryonic stem cells…etc. etc. etc.
RA: Wow. My “god”? Did you actually say, “my god”? LoL.
Oh, goodness, then I am assuming you consider me a non-Christian who worships a false man-God and who, as an alleged worshipper of Rick Warren, is also an idolater. ROFL!
Well, there’s really not much to say to that one. But I do think that it’s comments like that one that pretty much destroy all of your credibility (if that’s even still possible).
__________
PB: Look, I am very happy that this was clarified. I am glad that it seems that there is no reason to be concerned that this legislation will take away from our citizenship rights in this country. These are good things.
RA: Whew.
_________
PB: Regardless, I will proclaim the gospel, even if I must do it from a jail cell, or in line to be executed.
RA: Oh, how dramatic. Very inspiring, PB. Seriously, bro, very well said. I can almost hear the soundtrack in the background — it sort of sounds a little like something from my The Lord of the Rings CD. Frodo has got nothing on you. LoL.
I wish you the best, PB, I really do.
RA
Yep. I did say that. the little g indicating he is a false god, an idol, who I perceive that you worship, as he in your mind can do no wrong, apparently. Your support for him as he supports Obama and proves it by joining with a homosexual apostate Vicky Gene Robinson in praying for Obama to Jesus, Heyzeus, Isa, and the unoffensive purpose driven god he has constructed in his mind.
That said, I am still happy that this current legislation has been clarified. It still does not remove my concern about the deterioration of our constitution. The Word of God stands.
Rick,
This service is for anyone who gets a loan. I think that it is a good thing for these students to work (as Neil rightly said) It would not be right for them to have to stop being full citizens for a couple of months as they work. Now it is apparent that this is not the case. I thank God for that.
__________
I rest my case…………
RAbanes
Honestly,
Not meaning this as an attack on PB, but from what I have noticed time and again, in his passive aggressive attacks on people… he has some really bad theology and often states anti-biblical statements over and over… so when he states something about “your god” I am pleased to know and fully acknowledge that he is right… I would never serve PB’s “god”… I see PB’s god as offensive and not the TRUE God of the bible.
In his attacks and misrepresentations of others, PB builds a false gospel and a false god that has nothing… I repeat nothing to do with the TRUE God of the Bible.
He may try to claim he never “meant” what he wrote… and has proven truth, facts and his own words mean nothing…
He states one thing that is anti-biblical and is called on it then does the PB dance and prance to prove himself right even when it is so clear he is not.
Again, this is an observation… not an attack… I would not let him teach in my church at all…
Even people we mutually know think PB has gone off the deep end… and may have had some “issues” for some time.
I pray for him, his healing, and that he comes to the true knowledge of Grace though our Lord Jesus Christ.
iggy
Richard, my apologies in advance, but I think I’m gonna have to stop reading comment threads when you enter them. Not because of anything that you write, but because there are too many who don’t seem to understand that you and Rick Warren ARE TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE and such ignorance makes my hair bleed.
Ah, the bleeding hair syndrome…not good, not good.
Well, how grandiose…
“The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one….”
Neil,
Thanks for the clarification. I guess I did not see the SoL post, and saw the other article that you linked to,where the Nazi reference seemed to originate. Apparently SoL had no qualms in playing off that original reference.
B: you and Rick Warren ARE TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE
RA: Haven’t you ever noticed that we’ve never been photographed or seen at the same place, at the same time………(begin laying Twilight Zone music). Although, tbh, PB says I worship RW, which means I must indeed be separate from Rick Warren. LoL.
Oh, and just FYI, for the files of all those here at .INFO, and also even for you, dear PB, I have publicly posted at various web sites and blogs a number of criticisms of Warren that I’ve voiced. The following p ost, for example, was made last year over at Monday Morning Insights:
_________BEGIN
______END
So my much for my worship of Rick Warren as a god. ROFL. So sad.
RA
Iggy, please forgive me for taking lunch.
Pastorboy, I ask them not to address you with personal swipes and your retort with that – if it were up to me you’d be in moderation again.
Geesh!
Neil
There is a line that can be crossed… and with PB’s support of the pastor who crossed this line I wonder if PB even can see that line… so to suffer because he is conscious of God is one thing… but to suffer for doing wrong… is stupidity… and ungodly.
iggy
For the record, just a few minutes ago, as I was reading Romans, I suddenly became aware that Calvin WAS right!
( 4/1/09 )
Neil,
Hope it was a good one… = )
igs
I just peed myself laughing!
And here I thought we were expected to pray for our governing officials – who knew it was limited to just those withwhom we (mostly) agree.
Re 75,
Not bad… not bad at all.
Neil
WAIT!!!!!!!!! I just realized something!!!!! It’s April Fool’s Day!!!!!!
ROFL!!!! Oh man, PB really got all of us today!!! LoL.
Okay, okay. I give. Way to go PB. Man, whew, you really had us worried with that HR1388 thing. And then, with that Warren is “my god” shot. ROFL. Oh, dude, you are good. Awesome. Excellent April Fool’s on us.
Guys, I don’t know about you all, but I am totally embarrassed that I got played like that. LoL. Man, we all got caught looking. Let’s all thank PB for a good one. Thanks PB. And Happy April 1st to you, too.
RA
PB,
There really is no justification for your accusing a brother of worshipping a man. Without any proof of such an assertion, you simply are slandering Richard. Please try to find some balance. It is entirely appropriate to disagree with some of Richard’s apologetic stances regarding Mr. Warren. However, accusing him of worshiping Mr. Warren is flat out wrong. I fail to see how you show humility, charity, and love with such an accusation. You have no smoking gun to prove such a huge accusation, merely your own feelings formed by Richard’s dogged attempts to defend various aspects of Mr. Warrens ministry. I hope that you can reconsider and publicly and sincerely apologize to Richard.
An honest question for you, PB: Why do you come to this site and comment?
With rare exception, I have observed the visitors to this site be willing to engage you in discourse when there are issues to be discussed. However, there seems to be a desire on your part to constantly go overboard and you instantly lose any credibility that you might have gained. Take it from one who many times agrees with those concerned about a palpable decay in churches and visible Christianity, more often than not you are doing more harm to your chosen cause than you are doing good in the comment threads here. Despite numerous legitimate admonitions from commenters here regarding your penchant for misrepresentation, hyperbole, and at times a generally distateful tone, you continue in these traps. Have you no responsibility to heed Biblical admonitions from brothers in Christ and progress in sanctification? I suggest that you take a break from your interaction on sites such as this one until you can step back and assess your heart when it comes to these types of interactions. I don’t intend this as a lecture and I don’t intend to speak down to you. I have a sincere concern for you and your witness for Christ. Please take this admonition in the loving spirit in which it is intended.
yaaaaawwwwwn.
This is a lovely exercise demonstrating the need to set up extremes as the only options for people.
Sadly, Roe v. Wade is the settled law of the land.
Even if it’s overturned, abortion will remain.
Most people I know who voted for Obama didn’t vote for him because of the abortion issue.
I don’t think Obama is perfect, but I’m happy for his presidency, because I think it’s an opportunity for Christians to not place their hope in the politics.
My hope is that his presidency will teach them to be deeply disillusioned with either party and that whatever their affiliations they never get hyper-partisan or allow the Church be domesticated as a voting bloc for any political party.
The sad reality is that, regardless of whatever recent developments, is that Christians have been in bed with politics in a way that neuters them and makes them seem hypocritical and dangerous.
I dream for the day when Republicans and Dems alike tremble when they hear the Church speak.
We, as a whole, should be the conscience of both parties and the nation…not explicitly identified with any party.
I hate the idolatry of the evangelical world, and so, if an Obama presidency rebukes that sin…then I praise God for using it to chastise his children.
I only hope people will learn.
Voting, regardless of who is voted for, is an exercise in redemption circumvention designed to achieve cultural and moral readjustment via majority leverage.
Not in the OP, but what is up with the other obsession with Granger Church?
Ha. I beg to differ.
nc,
In that I assume you base your comment about an “obsession with Granger Church” on the frequency of SoL posts on Granger, would you see that differently than the frequency of posts here concerning SoL and CRN? Would you equally consider this site to be “obsessed” with SoL and CRN (perhaps the blog title is a clue)?
Rick,
In Re #83: Or, alternatively, voting is an excercise in civic involvement in the governing structure which God has instituted, with the aim of providing for a well ordered society where justice is meted out by the governing authorities as intended by God and revealed in His Word. Just because some intend to use voting as you describe, does not make it so for all.
It just seems like they’re one of her favorite whipping boys.
I’m wondering why Granger is of such particular concern…
Granger I’m sure has its faults.
I’m just wondering what makes them so deserving of constantly highlighting them?
It’s obvious to most of us here why a countering voice to SoL/CRN is important.
But if what you’re trying to get at is just a tired re-dux of “you do it too” that argument has been had here and refuted.
Don’t bother…
I had actually never heard of Granger prior to seeing them trashed on SoL. My guess is that the reason they get trashed is that they are Midwestern mega-church and Ingrid sees them as some sort of arch-nemesis.
God instituted government, man made democracy. The humanistic Greeks to be specific. Democracy is the glorification of man.
You may continue to vote, but do not expect to end up in heaven.
#86:
A good point. Just like, just because some people voted for Obama for wrong reasons doesn’t make all Obama voters messiah worshippers, evil, or haters of God.
88.
Why not go after Willow Creek more? They’re closer in proximity to her. Wouldn’t they fit the role better?
So strange…baffling…weird.
Basically, what these peeps seem to do is scour the Internet, paying special attention to any large church sites, in order to find some bit of news, a statement easily removed from its context, some video blurb, or anything that can be used as a springboard for another National Enquirer-esk hit piece. I’d really like to see them blending their news alerts with comparable articles like maybe,
- “My Grandfather was a Bigfoot”
- “Batboy Comes Back to Life”
- “Vampires are Real”
- “UFO Lands At Midwest Corn Boil”
- “Princess Diana Eloped with Elvis”
- “JFK Still Running the White House”
- “Real Photo of Jesus Hidden in Vatican Archives”
- “Mexico’s Famous Chupacabra is Obama’s Love Child”
RA
“Rick Warren is an Alien”
“Richard Abanes takes a Vow of Silence”
One of these articles is more ficticious than the other.
The weird thing about Granger Church is that I live in Indiana and my only knowledge of the city of Granger is that it’s a fly-speck on the map up near Amish country and Apostate Central (South Bend). The thought of any sizable church there (let alone one that might be considered ‘cutting edge’), had I never heard of GCC, to those of us even an hour south of there, is rather laughable.
It’s kind of like building a lot of hate up against a Class AA Farm Club team… what’s the point?
Chris L. – you have failed to understand the nature of a straw man beating a dead horse in an echo chamber.
Chris: “….. what’s the point?”
RA: Answer: “It’s kind of like building a lot of hate.” It doesn’t go much further than that, tbh.
RA
I just realized the horrible and demeaning nature of the “Apostate Central” quip offered by Chris Lyons, a professing believer. You, sir, are worse than Ingrid and have no discernment and your flagrant disregard for sacred programs will result in a sever “butt whopping” again this year, compliments of Our Lady of All Graces.
nc,
I wasn’t making any “you do it too” arguments. I was merely trying to see if you would apply the same standard of “obsession” here as you were there. I think I have my answer.
Rick,
Democracy is one of numerous different forms of government. Thought it may result in the glorification of man by some people, and may infact be idolized by some, it is not then necessarily illegitemate. Out of curiosity, what form of government would you prefer to see in place?
As to your statement: “You may continue to vote, but do not expect to end up in heaven”, I hope that you were intending to say that I will not end up in heaven because of my voting as opposed to saying that if I continue to vote I will not end up in heaven.
Yeah, but if it’s the Yankees farm club, then it’s definitely valid.
“As to your statement: “You may continue to vote, but do not expect to end up in heaven”, I hope that you were intending to say that I will not end up in heaven because of my voting as opposed to saying that if I continue to vote I will not end up in heaven.”
That is EXACTLY what I meant, and you would be wise to heed my words while there is still time. The mark of the beast is imprinted upon all who enter the voting booth. I was gloriously released from that bondage in 2000.
I fear for your soul, Erik.
If a person believes in particular sovereignty, whether he votes would seem to be a pretty meaningless question. If God has foreordained everything, and everything that happens is because of His will, then it doesn’t seem like our vote means that much.
That’s kind of thing that has always fascinated me so much. The people who go on and on the most about God being in control sure seem to worry a lot.
Personally if Ingrid is against it… or Ken for matter it is one of the BEST endorsements that things may be RIGHT about that church…
Especially since rarely if ever Ingrid about doctrinal issues… she is too superficial for that deep of topic…
Though John MacArthur uses huge projection screens… Grange may use them better… so Granger is wrong and JM is right…
Since there are no pews, pulpits and neck ties at Granger… they are wrong… unlike the home church Ingrid goes to that apparently has all those things in some one’s living room…
ANd that is strange!
iggy
Fear not, Ricc.
Ricc.
I love a believer, even a Calvanist, with a sense of humor. You and I would be great friends here in Florida!
hey Eric,
how are you ? I just got a fulltime job at the place you used to work.I got the cubicle that has the graphic display of a septic system right in front of me.Some days it is very disturbing.
Opus
Eric,
I think that, in general, a move toward consistency is fair, right and just. I also have been around long enough to know that there isn’t a one size fits all approach to life and that requires more attention to each situation.
C.S. Lewis said that justice renders equality to equals and inequality to inequals.
Your question assumes that there is a kind of 1-to-1 correspondence between groups and behaviors.
Thanks though…
Maybe it wasn’t “you do it too”, but we certainly can see what you’re getting at.
You have my answer.
Peace, bro.
All human systems, in the eternal scope of things, is illegitimate and stands under judgement.
That’s what the coming reign of God means.
As Christians, we need to hold this value deep within our hearts and see what God has accomodated for our time as merely that–accomodation, not some eternal decree that reflects God’s ultimate will.
We aren’t to bear witness to the value of gracious stop-gap measures…we’re to see them only as what they are.
Another example of profundity of which I’ve come to expect from my friend. The systems of this world are at best misguided attempts to affect human change through non-redemptive methods, and at worst, anti-christ.
When the dust of history settles, and when the prophetic chronology runs its course, Christ and all who are in Christ will be all that remains.
Opus,
Do I know you?
#80
Thanks EvD
Richard Abanes, I am sorry, but since the sad debacle where you showed a lack of love and Christian charity towards Ken Silva directly related to your stand on Rick Warren, I have felt that you loved Rick Warren more than God, or at least that you loved Rick Warren more than Ken Silva, which shows favoritism, which is specifically spoken against in the book of James.
All of your justifications for this lack of charity towards a brother have fallen on deaf ears. You refuse to repent.
But, since I believe in responding to brothers like Neil and EVD, I apologize for assuming you either worship Rick Warren as god or hold Rick Warren in higher esteem.
Pull the speck out of your own eye Pastor Boy. You and your conspirators have no love for any of those you criticize and your gods are your own mouths.
Praise you, PB.
Calling people here to repent?
hahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
PB,
calling out favoritism?
Hahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
#112
Its Pastorboy…one word….Bo.
I feel like you are discriminating or being racist towards me.
115:
PB gots jokes.
After the display you put on here today “Pastor” Boy, any school you’ve graduated should have their accreditation pulled.
Well, I’m out of here, while I’m gone… pastorboy: neither pastor nor boy, discuss.
#111 – Could there be a more disingenuous and conditional apology? I think not. Where oh where are the stringent parameters concerning true repentance you demand from others?
#119
I apologized for my assumption, Rick.
What more must I do?
I was fascinated, though, by the self serving RA website page dedicated to defense against Ken Silva.
My goodness, man. I think RA doth protesteth too much.
The line from Hamlet is protest, not protesteth, for what it is worth.
And there is nothing remotely racist about Bo calling you a boy, and you sound silly every time you complain about it.
Boy, unlike other most racist terms, is clearly contextual. It’s use in reference to you is as offensive as someone calling you a ape.
121
an ape
here is the deal, thats also racist.
I am really offended now.
Don’t bother M.G. this “one size fits all” laziness is what these people do.
PB,
The historical context and weight of the use of the term “boy” toward black men only cuts one way. It’s that weight and context that makes the term racist when used by only by certain people toward other specific people. (i.e. whites toward black men)
This is what ham-handed absolutism gets you.
Then again, you do this with your friends too.
There’s not a one to one correspondence of behaviors. But you don’t seem to grasp this.
But soft, a Shakespeare fan!!
“A man may fish with the worm that has eaten a king, and eat the fish that has fed on that worm.”
“What do you mean by this?”
“Nothing but to show you how a king may progress through the guts of a beggar.”
(Hamlet)
*** There is a sermon somewheree in that.
Seriously, PB…
or are you that dense?
Let me fix this:
Pastorboy , I am sorry, every time you talk you show a lack of love and Christian charity towards anyone against your perverted view of grace and anti biblical theology, I have felt that you loved Ken Silva more than God, or at least that you loved Ken Silva more than Richard Abanes, which shows favoritism, which is specifically spoken against in the book of James.
There… that reads better and is more in touch with reality and truth.
iggy
Somtimes I think PB is a brilliant atheist sent to destroy the faith of Christians by masquerading as the most subtly obtuse believer one could ever possibly imagine.
That would somehow make more sense to me than these types of conversations.
“Alas, poor PB! I knew him, Horatio: a fellow of infinite jest, “
#128
LOL
Some profound doctrinal statements from the prophet William Shakespeare:
“Being born is like being kidnapped. And then sold into slavery.”
“A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. ”
“Truly, I would not hang a dog by my will, much more a man who hath any honesty in him.”
“Modest doubt is called the beacon of the wise.”
Thank you, MG, you conjoured up what lies in my heart.
“The lady doth protest too much, methinks”
“A little more than kin, and less than kind”- perfect for Richard Abanes
“Brevity is the soul of wit”
“Rich gifts wax poor when givers prove unkind”–Perfect for C?RN.info
It is obvious that PB has no idea that he is white and is claiming he is black… so is… consistent in his false version of reality… black is white, good is evil…
iggy
PB,
I think this quote befits you…
“I think thou art an ass.” ~ W. Shakespeare
The Comedy of Errors, 3. 1
It is almost prophetic!
iggy
rofl.
RA
To the post:
President Obama hates Jesus and wants to outlaw Christianity. Please help me fight this spiritual war.
Click here for donations.
(I continue to reduce my assessment of the intellect of some bloggers and their readers. It is obviously possible to have the capacity to read without the capacity to understand what you are reading.)
135:
To be sure, that breath may be no breath at all, but the foul stench of their unwashed secrets.
There is two sides to the miracle of regeneration.
On one side a darkened heart can be made clean and manifest the words of God’s grace which was not so before.
On the other side, a regenerate heart can be made dark and manifest the words of Satan’s accusations which was not so before.
Both miracles are breathtaking.
“The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!”
Jesus
Every once in a while someone places a Scripture in a way that fits exactly into the moment.
Nathanael is that someone today. Thanks.
The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel Mark 1:15
#141
Funny how when I teach about that verse, ODM’s attack me as a heretic…
“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel Mark 1:15″
The church cannot agree with the “time”, or the “kingdom”, or what it means to “repent, or what it means to “believe”, and what is the gospel.
Other than that, we are certain about everything.
Rick,
The Lord has used that verse to convict me numerous times.
When I use the light He has given me to exercise my fleshly impulses, it becomes darkness.
My discernment becomes worldly knowledge.
My desire to be right trumps my Lord’s call to die to myself.
And I am actually operating in darkness.
Your quote, “…a regenerate heart can be made dark and manifest the words of Satan’s accusations…” was what prompted me to post that verse.
Lord, help me die to myself today and walk in the power of your resurrection!
PB: The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel Mark 1:15
RA: And in comes the obligatory scripture missile that really has little to do with anything. Be grateful PB didn’t take up bandwidth by posting about a dozen passages, all typed out, from Numbers, to Obadiah to Revelation. They sometimes fill whole pages of web text.
Each of them are totally irrelevant, of course, but wonderfully packed with power words and power imagery that raise the specters of Edom, golden calves, raw meat, flies, and assorted references to whoredoms (interesting).
RA
I am embarrassed.
Nath,
Interesting passage to use. It really made me stop and think about what we’re seeing. Very poignant and insightful.
RA
Thanks, Richard.
I have my moments.
But I owe it all to my Pontificate Frueh.
I am imagining you genuflecting toward Florida.
I think the passage that Nathanael quoted should make us all stop and think about our motives… what we do and say… not just what we see others do and say…
Good words, Gene. My own inward eye needs contant maintenance and still exhibits levels of darkness if I am willing to admit it. I also am very adept at admitting my own partial compromise as a camouflage for revealing the greater compromise.
#150
Amen Eugene
#145
So repentance and belief have nothing to do with anything? I suppose that is true in the Purpose Driven World, where it is all about surveys and syncretism. So the Old Testament scriptures from Numbers to Obadiah, and the book of Revelation are totally irrelevant? I suppose it is only relevant if it has to do with your pope teaching a class and getting a photo with ‘HIM’ at your baptism, and giving a copy of HIS writings as a special gift if you will just join today….It is like a RONCO commercial or a K-Tel ad.
PB: So repentance and belief have nothing to do with anything?
RA: Everyone notice. See what I mean? I think we’re dealing here with nothing less than a pathology of some kind that goes like this:
Anyway, you all sort of get the idea. Sigh.
There’s really no way to even reason with these types of responses or the twisted minds that produce them. It’s sad, really sad. I think prayer is the only thing that could ever break through that kind of wall of delusion — and a willing heart (and isn’t that always the sticky part).
RA
Pastorboy, the “Amen” to my comment is empty if it is followed by an attack on a brother using our own false construct of his faith. Richard Abanez is not right in assuming that your quote of scripture (Mark 1:15) was done by you with alterior motives but then launching your own attack sounds like something Jesus addressed when he said:
E: Richard Abanez is not right in assuming that your quote of scripture (Mark 1:15) was done by you with alterior motives
RA: Let me clarify.
I do NOT believe, nor did I intend to insinuate, that there were any conscious, willful, deliberate ulterior motives in play by PB.
My post sought to show how these ODMs, PB included, tend to throw all kinds of scriptures at various situations, people, and arguments based on a HIGHLY skewed/perverted understanding of those situations, people, and arguments.
What one ends up seeing is a litany of verses that are usually not truly applicable. But by use of such passages, there is an air of biblical authority given to their sometimes rather wild accusations. That’s all I was saying.
RA
Is this the thread that makes Brendt’s hair bleed?
Isn’t Brendt bald?
Opus (initials BH, perhaps?),
Didn ‘t mean to put you off with my “do I know you” question. If you are who I guess you may be, we’ve talked shortly before about you running into me here. I still pop in once in a while and occasionally comment. And, to answer your question, I am doing well. I spoke with Diane for a while this morning and she indicated that Sheldon had moved on to a different position. I’m glad for you to have the job and I hope things work out well for you. I invite you to join me at church sometime (not Grace, in case you are unaware). If you need details, email me at eric_v@co….. I think you know the formula.
If your initials aren’t BH, then most of what I just wrote won’t make sense.
To everyone else, thanks for indulging this short thread hijacking. Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming.
Thanks for bringng clarity Richard… Sorry for assuming it otherwise.
Richard,
You are setting up a straw man, much like your pope Rick does. I have said no such things, nor anything similar. ‘Rick’ discounts his critics in the same way, dismissing the authority of the Bible and the gift of discernment as junk science, painting his critics as wackos. Your attempt here is rather sad, though not as direct as Pastor Rick’s
suggestionencyclical that you would remove any dissenters from the church.You are pathetic, even in this post as you attempt to stump your new book, gaining legitimacy through slanderous accusations. You stated that you believed that the scripture was irrelevant; then when you are called on it you twist words and make up a ODM strawman that you and your .info cronies can kick over. And whats worse, you have created a pathetic even dangerous monster in your mind of Ken Silva, and have mounted up a fanciful case against him on your little website to make yourself look good, and the legitimate and needed discernment ministries all look bad.
This ad hominem attack is nothing better than a red herring that is taking the eyes of the truth; that your ‘ministry’ has been reduced to a vendetta against those who have called you on legitimate concerns. You take the cue well from your lord and master Rick Warren, RA.
Good luck with that….
talk about adhoinem attacks and red herrings…
talk about adhoinem attacks and red herrings…
http://www.rosswalker.co.uk/movie_sounds/sounds_files_20081223_3107713/princess_bride/word.wav
Talk about adhominem attacks and red herrings!
“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”
iggy
You can delete the attempts at links to the sound bite… arrgh.
Things like that should warrant moderation. It goes beyond ad hominen.
Well it seems PB takes his cues from his lord and master Ken Silva… and yep that is not ad hominem… as Ken is better at alliterations…
IGGY, let it go. don’t get sucked into the outer limits.
this goes beyond someone being plain nasty and mean-spirited. there’s a deep pathology present here. and you want to stay away from that. its unpredictable. it’s unreasonable. and it’s unreachable.
so just let it go. it’s a waste of time, energy, and sanity.
RA
Iggy,
As I’ve noted elsewhere online:
So, it’s kind of like trying to convince someone they’re not Napoleon. It’s not really possible.
RA
The point Richard is that what you did was not an ad hominem attack on PB, but what PB does most the time with you is an ad hominem attack…
PB tries to discredit you as a source by his insistence you are an apologist for Rick Warren… that you are NEVER critical of him… yet you prove over and over this is not true, yet PB propagates the same lie as if by discrediting you he can subvert your arguments and discount you discussion here.
I find that offensive. Not just against you but anyone else PB interacts with.
What I did was state the truth above that PB bows to his lord and master Ken Silva (which he does as he uses the same tactics and thinks Ken is a credible source of information… ROTFLOL! …. sorry… had to laugh there!)
I am not attacking PB the person, but stating a truth about him that is backed by every conversation here let alone his posts on his own blogs… he mostly discredits himself as he spouts of things like he states to you as well as how he uses the bible to “prove” his point and as we read what he states is sooooooo far off the map of being biblical I wonder that he is allowed to preach! The when confronted he claims he did not say what he stated clearly… and then backtracks and covers his tracks… all the while showing he actually agrees with the person he is attacking, be that Rick Warren, Rob Bell or anyone on this forum. In other threads I have pointed out that PB’s statements, if believed as he states them, shows PB does not believe many of the major tenets of the Christian faith! PB uses double speak as well as many Mormons…
PB does not know the difference and as I stated, may be sick and not be able to understand the difference. Like a relative I have who has borderline personality disorder and cannot see beyond her own issues and empathize with others… it is all about her… and that is PB… he has much the same issues where he cannot grasp any view except his own as having truth to it.
I truly feel sorry for PB… yet I think he is unhealthy and needs serious counseling to help him work out these personality issues he has. Hopefully as we all pray for him God will also heal him or at least open his eyes to see his illness and seek help.
iggy
Is it time to put John back in moderation yet?
Boy Pastor said:
You supposedly apologize to RA and then continue to describe RW as his “pope”. Your sincerity smacks of bull dung.
And you have already been informed that all people who have been baptized at Saddleback get a picture with the baptizing pastor and furthermore, EVERY new member attending CLASS 101 gets a copy of PDL. I understand the truth doesn’t fit your agenda so you will continue to “spin”. Perhaps YOUR heroes Ken and Ingrid will be proud of you. :rolleyes:
Discernment – a respectful confronting concerning a Scriptural disagreement with someone else’s teachings.
Hatred – a continuing hyperbolic demeaning of another believer that uses verbiage laced with invectives and adolescent name calling.
I Jn.4:20 – If a man say, I love God, and hate his brother, he is a liar…
What do you people expect? Did any of you see his comment on Tony Jones’ recent fb status?
Sheeesh.
Seriously, what a jackass.
In general…FYI: interesting
jump to the 75 minute mark and listen to the summarizing statements. or wade through the whole thing if you have the time.
http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=b055dd51f345c802c26c
Why do you guys diss a man of God like Pastor John?
I have seen the stuff RA has written behind the scenes.
Listen, this guy would give anybody the shirt off his back. He did it for me. He does it every week with my friends and I. You guys need to lay off the brother.
Talk about hate. Pastor shared with more people two weeks ago than you guys will in a lifetime.
Hypocrites. I used to be one. I know what they look like.
Yeah, cuz you can tell what any of us are doing in our weekly lives by virtue of comment threads here.
Congrats on not being a hypocrite anymore.
Apparently now you’re just ignorant.
seriously.
yeesh.
Thurstin,
do you think it’s appropriate for your pastor to ask someone if they are “turning homosexual” because they are open about their position on homosexuality?
It doesn’t matter what the position is…
nevermind that the person he asked is married, a father and has made public statements clearly to the contrary and is not gay.
“Give you the shirt off his back?” Sounds like the social gospel to me! Good works don’t mean anything do they? That’s what Warren does.
/sarcasm
Shared what? Do numbers matter to God? I didn’t think He needed us.
PastorBoy, we are often known by those whom defend us. I’m not sure Thurston is helping you.
#173
wow. wow. wow.
Truth or Dare time: How many people have I “shared” with in my life time? I’ll give you one free shot, you’ll have to add the rest. I spoke a salvation message in front of 1500 kids once. So start with 1500 and go from there.
Who wants to bet, all we hear is crickets from former Mr. Hypocrite, not just Mr. Silly.
Yeah, your Pastor John comports himself so wonderfully.
Please do not assign credibility or truth weight to anyone based upon the aggregate of their witnessing. I admire PB’s witnessing, but that does not mean everything he says is truth.
I believe that the open hatred of Rick Warren and referencing him as someone’s god or lord or master is as blasphemous as anything Brian McLaren says. There is infinitely more to being a follower of Jesus Christ than espousing orthodox systematic theology, and many have seriously sacrificed the exhibiting of Jesus Christ upon the altar of doctrinal defense via a self righteous attitude that completely misrepresents the Christ they desire to defend.
The orthodoxy that some profess is based largely on a limited doctrinal scope and ignores the orthodox elements of the character and life of Jesus Christ, most significantly and most greviously ignoring the cross itself.
Thurstin,
We applaud that side of John… we really do! The issue is that often what comes out of his mouth is just so wrong it clouds any good thing he may do.
Now if someone else or I stated what you stated about John about myself, John would have attacked me for promoting a “social gospel” neglecting to share “penal substitution” and how bad I am… then he would promote some video of himself where he is insulting people by stating “my dog listens better than you”…. meaning he just insulted that person by stating they are LESS THAN A DOG to him!… I have had people be nice to me… but they then had an agenda other than love… and I hope that is not true in your case with John.
This is the issue… John contradicts himself over and over… and it is sad.
No one hates John… if anything we all hope he finds healing and peace in Jesus and comes to a true understanding of Grace.
iggy
NC,
Did pastor boy really do that? That seems beyond crass, even for him.
yep.
TJ’s fb status mentioned getting another blog post on the issue ready.
He posted a comment under the status…a question about if Tony was “turning homosexual”.
Lovely.
RE: 173
The following is the definition of hypocrisy from Merriam Webster:
1: a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not ; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion
You’re really not accusing anyone of hypocrisy. No one claims one thing, but does another. All comments are displayed, and all behavior is public. Instead, there is a very real difference of opinion over whether PastorBoy’s behavior is illicit, or whether the commentators themselves are going against the things of God by actively criticizing Ken Silva, Ingrid, etc.
So while “hypocrite” is a great insult, it’s not what you are trying to communicate, strictly speaking.
I think a more apt insult would be “misguided,” “vicious,” or “unregenerate.”
I guess Perry Noble knows what the A in ADM really stands for.
#183
As Tony’s friend, I was asking a legitimate question. If he is, I am concerned. I mean, Vicky Gene Robinson turned homosexual after being married all those years, what makes Tony any different?
You are assigning motives, NC. Sounds like you are the one vying for the job of looking into men’s hearts and judging them. Mr. Kettle, the Pot is calling!
PB,
If you were a real friend you would not ask such a question in a public forum but privately.
You are still out of line whether your concern is legit or not.
iggy
FRUEH’S UNABRIDGED DICTIONARY
Disingenuous – an adjective usually used to identify a less than sincere verbal pronouncement. Look for phrases like this in comment #186:
Iggy,
I thought homosexuality in the emergent world was to be celebrated!
What is the problem of asking such a question in public?
#188 Rick, are you judging me?
I am judging the spirits and I have found some of them the spirit of the flesh. But I do find your question quite amusing since it comes from someone who publicly referred to Rick Warren as RA’s “lord and master”.
Now that’s real judging!! (I am judging judging)
#190
I am judging your judging of my judging of RA’s defense of RW’s ministry as bad judgement.
Thurstin: I have seen the stuff RA has written behind the scenes.
RA: As far as I can remember, I’ve not written anything behind the scenes. LoL. In fact, that’s why I use my real name rather than anonymous labels, and allow responses at all my blogs (unlike ODMrs who usually shut down/off all comments at their so-called blogs and/or ban those who don’t think they’re awesome).
ODM tactic #47b: Use language that makes all kinds of veiled implications and that enables the minds susceptible people to imagine various nefarious/insidious things about the target of choice.
_______________
Thurston: Pastor shared with more people two weeks ago than you guys will in a lifetime.
RA: It’s really disheartening to see someone so concerned about numbers. That’s so man-centered and success-driven. I don’t think God cares about numbers, but it’s changed lives and changed hearts he cares about – that’s what Rick Warren teaches.
It’s indeed a sign of worldliness when someone is so enamored with how many people someone preaches to, rather than the quality of that which is being preached.
And, tbh, to make a comparison between believers and their sharing of the gospel as a mark of success for some as opposed to a mark of failure for others is just tragically unbiblical.
________________
PB: I thought homosexuality in the emergent world was to be celebrated!
What is the problem of asking such a question in public?
RA: And this is called…….disingenuous.
_______________
PB: I am judging your judging of my judging of RA’s defense of RW’s ministry as bad judgement.
RA: And this is called…….comical.
RA
RA,
Who is concerned about numbers? Not me. I am not the guy who offered a photo AND a magazine AND a book (beside the Bible) for becoming a member so we could see ‘pentecost’ again.
I think your boy Iggy is concerned about numbers, as he still has on his satanic ODMafia site the Ken Silva growth chart.
By the power of the Holy Spirit, I preach to crowds of 1 (myself) or thousands. It makes no difference, for I am called to preach the truth; that we must repent and trust Christ alone for our salvation.
And to talk to a new christian like Thurstin like that is wrong. I hope you are happy.
I am not being disengenuous. I am truly concerned that Tony might be turning homosexual as he is spending a LOT of time defending the lifestyle.
hey iggy,
He pulled the Satan card on you (25 pts.). I’m surprised the Nazi card hasn’t come up yet (50 pts). I’ve only gotten the guilty of idolatry card (+15 pts. + a bonus of 2 pts for it being on a blog) & the worshiping a man card (5 pts). So, it looks like I’m right behind you.
You know, we should just turn this whole sad ODM issue into a card game like the devil’s Pokemon.
Or maybe we could play it more like SLAMWICH:
Hey, this is starting to sound like a really good idea…lol.
RA
Numbers never crossed my mind. and really I have been having more hits on my blog that I ever thought I would! I average well over 200 hits per day… even when I do not update!
Again, PB, as I stated, IF the growth chart offends Ken, I will take it down. He has yet to contact me about it so it must not be that offensive to him… so really you have not grounds to attack me on a simple chart that shows his churches growth… and how is my site Satanic? There you go again casting false accusations against people w/o facts to back anything up…
The blog is to set straight the lies propagated by those who seem to think they are more worthy of God’s grace than other people… It is to shed a humorous light on the LIE of the so-called “truth war” which is at its base an offense against God… as it calls believers to defend God and His Truth and not trust that God and His Truth defends the believer…
The truth war is a lie that twists God to be subservient to man… and you are part of that lie… The truth war make man the god of God… and you fight FOR THAT…
iggy
RA,
Too funny!
igs
Just proves again how little you know about most things you talk about…
iggy
I am always amused at the things that are supposed to be celebrated, permitted, etc. in the emergent church. I attend an emergent church and we are very open about our beliefs that homosexuality is wrong. However, really, that is not our focus. Our focus is on telling people about Jesus, preaching the Bible and loving people.
I think most emergent churches have a similar focus, but I can’t say for sure, because there is no central doctrinal creed for the emergent church movement.
So if PB wanted to say that homosexuality is celebrated at a certain specific church, he might actually be believable.
Otherwise we will just have to chalk his comment up to hyperbole, sarcasm or being uninformed.
-Blessings
PB,
Seriously?
I haven’t talked about anybody’s motives.
I talked about the inappropriateness of your question…
either you know how inflammatory it is and you’re being a real dick OR you’re just really dumb.
So fail.
Second, just because Tony Jones has his stance on the issue doesn’t mean you have any right to say something like “emergent circles celebrate homosexuality”. That’s patently untrue.
You need to watch that video of the panel discussion from the Christian Book Expo and listen carefully to Scot McKnight’s critique of people who whine about Emergent.
The only place I disagree with him is where he stops in his criticism. People aren’t just being uncharitable…they’re liars because they consciously choose to ignore all the names of people connected to Emergent that don’t fit their criticisms and their immature need to create another “boogeyman”.
Furthermore, your comment about celebrating assumes (again) that there is doctrinal uniformity within a network of relationships. This isn’t a priority because it’s not a denomination/church, etc. It’s a network of friends. There’s no failure here because friends don’t need a “statement of faith” to be friends.
BTW, Tony’s taken a lot of criticism for his beliefs–some of which is deserved.
The difference between the network of relationships that is emergent is that we don’t throw people under the bus and end our friendships with people with whom we disagree. And that’s part of the reason why nobody needs to “chase him down” about it either.
He’s entitled to his opinion, and his friends have no obligation to communicate their disagreement in manner that is to the satisfaction of people who aren’t part of that relational circle. We aren’t accountable to you or anyone else, PB.
(BUT…if you really want a relationship, a real friendship, and understand that that means “playing well with others”, committed to remaining stubbornly connected out of love and kindness like Jesus…well come on in. That being said. No one is obligated to open themselves to being poked in they eye by people that clearly don’t care about us.)
I just had the misfortune of re-reading Carson’s crap book and listen to some other recordings again. More and more I’m convinced as to what the real issue is–there’s people who aren’t bowing to the obscure self-appointed gatekeepers of a self-important sub-set of Christianity that is increasingly experiencing self-inflicted marginalization…and that makes people mad.
Thank you, Michael. An informed voice of reason.
I want to openly affirm my stand that homosexual behavior is every bit as much a sin as self righteousness. And to your last sentence, Michael –
What do you get when you mix hyperbole, sarcasm, and ignorance, and place it in the freezer for two hours? An ODM popsicle!
Another thing, PB,
it’s clear that you and others attribute your own sinful idolatry to others. You can’t imagine people being any other way than you are.
Hence, you and others NEED Tony Jones to be “our hero” or whatever or speaking for all of us.
See…we don’t worship our man-centered idols. We leave that to ya’ll while you drink deeply from your sacred J-mac, Piper, Mohler, etc.
To the crooked things appear crooked.
Think about it.
194:
THAT is hilarious.
Can you make ones for Chris R and Chris P?
NC: Can you make ones for Chris R and Chris P?
RA: Well, I don’t know Chris P. well enough to give him a card, but as for Chris R……
I think this would work.
RA
“Lutheran Mind Meld”.
amazing.
simply.
amazing.
From WIKIpedia: Lutheran Mind Meld
I hope this explains.
RA
Even though I do not know about Pokeman, the Lutheran Mind Meld was exhilarating and increased my serotonin level.
Chris Pajak
Type: Iron Masked Marauder
Ability: Nonspecific attack jargon
Height: .01?
Weight: .001 lb.
Hit Points: Scattered
Special Attack: Manson interview verbiage
Defense: Cloaking device
Speed: Snail
BONUS: +3 if two comments are elicited
I thought homosexuality in the emergent world was to be celebrated! – PB
I do not think that word means what you think it means… “emergent” that is.
As we have repeatedly said, and you repeatedly ignore… (because who wants to let fact get in the way of a good straw man) there is no “the” emergent anything…
rabanes in #203 wrote:
“Chris Rosebrough
Type: Brain Rotter”
wow. good to see you are not being nasty or mean-spirited either. keep it up.
Wilson,
While it might have been a little out of bounds it was extraordinarily mild compared to what each of these ADMs post on a regular basis.
So when was the last time you contacted them about being nasty and mean-spirited?
Hey Wilson, here is an insuation from Ingrid about some of us concerning our disagreement over some of the attacks by Ingrid:
Ingrid is openly suggesting we are defending Miley Cyrus, a fifteen year old girl, because we are lusting after her. Go ahead and defend that slander.
Funny but it seems that Ingrid sees more “sex” in Miley than I do… She is pretty… but I really don’t find myself lusting over her…
I just think it is wrong to call a 15 y/o girl who professes Jesus a “painted girl of Sodom.”
Yep it has been way too long not to be able to bring that up…
and where is Paul C to point that out!?!
iggy
nc & Rick, I was just a bit concerned that the conversation was heading somewhere other than the informative and thought-provoking discussion I’m used to reading here.
re: 212,
I meant to address that to Bo & Rick.