Do me a favor. Imagine for a minute that you are back in college. You’re in the middle of midterms and your busting your tail to get everything done. Next week, you’re going to Florida for vacation.  You’re a strong Christian, who loves God and has worked hard to live a life that honors him. You strive to live a pure life that is honoring and glorifying to God. Finally, you fly down to the beach. Ahh, sweet bliss. You go out to the beach, open a cold beer and plan on having a fun day.

Now, change gears a little. You’re out of college but you and your friends have been going to Florida for years.  You fly down, slip into a bathing suit and grab a cooler and some chairs and head to the beach.

Suddenly, in the middle of your throwing a football back and forth a Muslim shows up.  Now, he’s not just trying to engage people in conversation and talk to them, he’s with a group of friends and they’ve brought a P.A. system with them.  It squeaks every five minutes or so.  He starts yelling that you’re a whore and that you are on your way to Hell.  There’s no discussing with this guy. In fact, if you come up close to him, he’ll point his finger at you and call you a whore/drunk/slut , whatever over the PA system.

Now, you could move. You could pick up all of your stuff and head on down the beach but should you have to do that? Does this Muslim, who just says that he’s doing Allah’s work when the cops show up, have the right to make you listen to him? Does he have the right to call all who don’t follow the Koran pagans? Do you have a right to some level of peace and quiet?  Should the Muslim be arrested?  Can I be honest? I think that he should be.

When the good Muslim is confronted, he points out that many of his religions earlier followers debated people publicly and openly. When you point out that happened in synagogues and other places where it was expected and not on a vacation front, our happy Muslim begins to praise Allah for the persecution he is under for sharing Allah’s good news. When you call the police and they show up and threaten to have he man arrested, he again praises Allah, and mumbles about the persecution he is under. He laments the state of our country that won’t allow him to make you listen to his “preaching.” Finally, in a desperate act you fling a football his way that knocks him out cold. One of his compatriots will later write about how blessed he almost was to have died while serving Allah.

Parenthetically, imagine if this same Muslim street preacher showed up at certain ODM’s/ADM’s vacation? Can you imagine the blog posts? After you have fun with that for a few minutes go back to your vacation…

Would you be angry? Would you just want the guy to shut up so you could enjoy your vacation? I imagine that a lot of these people felt the same way about a man preaching at them about Jesus.

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This entry was posted on Monday, April 6th, 2009 at 7:03 pm and is filed under Christian Living, Church and Society, Evangelism, pastorboy. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
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431 Comments(+Add)

1   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 6th, 2009 at 7:17 pm

Wow – looks like “Jerks for Jesus” has way too many vacancies to fill…

2   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 6th, 2009 at 7:47 pm

I have always wondered why they film these things.

3   M.G.    
April 6th, 2009 at 7:52 pm

What’s with that singing in the car halfway through?

I think Ingrid should be alerted of this. It’s Circus Church material.

4   Joe    
April 6th, 2009 at 7:57 pm

I have always wondered why they film these things

.

How else would they rally the troops?

5   rabanes    http://abanes.com
April 6th, 2009 at 8:02 pm

I love how drinking a single beer at the beach is now sinful.

Goodness. Someone should have told Jesus not to make such tasty wine at that little celebration he attended in Cana.

Too bad the God of the universe wasn’t in touch with his own perfect righteousness and perfect laws to bust those wedding guests for hiding cups of wine behind their backs and say to them, “Yo, didn’t you have to go to the market to buy that?!”

Sick and sad.

RA

6   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 6th, 2009 at 8:13 pm

Joe I always suspected it was to broadcast their “boldness”. You want boldness? Go wipe the vomit off of a 14 year old African girl who is dying of AIDs, and do it without cameras and YouTube.

Those are the bold witnesses for CHrist. Anyone can scream and yell and enjoy patting each other on the back, but it takes a real bold witness to rub shoulders with Muslims in a strict Muslim country for five years before you see one convert. (Like missionaries we support have done)

Get your sound system, go to Tehran, stand on a box and hollar “stop sinning” or Jesus will send you to hell. Please film it for American consumption. It may end up a snuff film.

7   Erica    http://searchingthesunsets.com/erica
April 6th, 2009 at 8:53 pm

Great post! I could not agree with you more. Some how, some way, these people miss it.

8   rabanes    http://abanes.com
April 6th, 2009 at 9:02 pm

ERica: Some how, some way, these people miss it.

RA: But that sort of assumes they’re looking for it to begin with.

RA

9   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 6th, 2009 at 9:04 pm

I disagree with both Erica and RA, most of these people get exactly what they’re looking for. :cool:

10   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 6th, 2009 at 9:04 pm

My question is why does the camera keep showing that one girls crotch so much? Is this secretly porno?

What is done in secret… and all that biblical stuff…

iggy

11   rabanes    http://abanes.com
April 6th, 2009 at 9:19 pm

RICK: Those are the bold witnesses for CHrist. Anyone can scream and yell and enjoy patting each other on the back, but it takes a real bold witness to rub shoulders with Muslims in a strict Muslim country for five years before you see one convert.

RA: Yeah, or how about just going out to a quiet lunch with a Mormon bishop and sitting there for 3 hours without a PA and loudspeaker — actually talking to them, sharing with them, loving them, listening to them, hurting for them, trying to understand them, showing the scriptures to them, and praying for them. No cameras. No fighting. No drama.

I suppose it’s not really as glorious or glamorous as standing on a beach and screaming at babes in bikinis while being able to feel so very holy, but not truly interacting with anyone — but then again, where else are you going to see babes in bikinis?

RA

12   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 6th, 2009 at 9:38 pm

A tearless screaming at precious sinners is not the pathos of the cross. Everyone desires to be John the Baptist but how many offer their face to receive spittle? So many desire the power of the resurrection without the humiliation of the cross.

I find the recording of these events to be unseemly and self serving.

13   the template    
April 6th, 2009 at 10:02 pm

This is what happens when you think that what you do or say brings someone to saving faith. So in reality they are like you, just using a different method.

Why is it always the same elite handful of “holier than thous” posting and commenting?
I exclude myself from that obviously more spiritual group, since I am never agreement with your twaddle.

14   Joe    
April 6th, 2009 at 10:03 pm

how many offer their face to receive spittle?

Oh, I’d be willing to bet these guys were spit at. In fact, I think I saw one of their blogs where they talked about what they “endured.” It’s not about that.

15   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 6th, 2009 at 10:42 pm

I tried the street witness style… it was to impersonal… anyone can preach at people… but it takes time and commitment to love people…

iggy

16   M.G.    
April 6th, 2009 at 10:50 pm

Well, that’s the ODM way. Why take the time to care about people, influence people, and love people when you can just yell at them?

It’s just like the ODM conception of discernment. Why read, sift, and discern, when you can just compile of list of people who can do no wrong, (e.g. John MacArthur) and, more importantly, a list of people who can do no right (e.g. Rick Warren and Rob Bell).

Where is the discernment in that?

How much thought does it really Ken Silva to bang out another missive where he talks about the spineless evangelicals and how they’ve sold themselves out to liberal theology?

We get it, Ken. Evangelicals suck. How many different ways can you spell it out?

Wisdom is dying, and ODMs are killing her.

17   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 6th, 2009 at 10:54 pm

There was One who enured the contradiction of sinners against Himself. There was One who ate with sinners and winebibbers. There was One who wasn’t ashamed to call these sinners “friends”. There was One who came in their likeness and lived in their midst.

They brought a woman fresh from a spring break party and Jesus said He would not condemn her. There was One who said He did not come to codemn the spring break partiers, but He came to deliver them through His own sacrifice. God so loved the spring break crowd that He gave His only Son.

The gospel is good news…real good news. If I be lifted up on the beach I will draw the spring break crowd unto Me. He sees them as sheep without a shepherd, not as targets of verbal abuse.

Fred Phelps receives much abuse as well. The test of a Christian witness is not how much persecution we can muster up by offensive methodologies, it’s how much persecution we can endure without saying a word about it and still be willing to absorb it in order to continue to love the persecutors.

18   Joe    
April 6th, 2009 at 10:54 pm

Wisdom is dying, and ODMs are killing her.

ooo, I like that quote

19   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 6th, 2009 at 11:47 pm

As Jesus hung on the Cross he shouted out, “My dog listens better than you!” They hurled insults on him so he stated, “God condemn these sinners to what they deserve! They know the truth so there is no excuse for them. They don’t deserve grace or mercy! They should get what is coming…”

Jesus spat at them, then with a loud shout said, “God, into you hand I commit my spirit… now go get these ungrateful sinners as they are our enemies and I know, Father, how much you hate sinners!”

Jesus died, and was buried… and though he rose from the grave… no one cared about the angry God-man who hated sinners and called the wrath of God on people…

The end.

iggy

20   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
April 6th, 2009 at 11:57 pm

This entire article is a lie and a gutless swipe at me.
But it is okay to make adhominem attacks if they are on your team…eh?

Ingrid has never written anything so hateful.

Here is my response

The gloves are off, Joe. Bring it on.

21   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 12:01 am

Vengeance is mine sayeth Pastorboy…

iggy

22   Aaron    
April 7th, 2009 at 12:03 am

PB,

actually, you were not mentioned at all, just catagorized along with it. Sooo…. “this entire article is…a gutless swipe at me.” is wrong.

Hence…you lose.

Joe – 1, PB – 0

23   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 12:05 am

Aaron, actually, the video is of my friends and I, and it is tagged pastorboy.

Lies:
Aaron 1
Joe: 18 I can find
Me: none

24   M.G.    
April 7th, 2009 at 12:06 am

I like this little ditty from PB’s response….

” Of course, [Muslims] wouldn’t do this, for their method of evangelism is at the point of a gun, or the end of a sword.”

Is there a Mosque in PB’s town? Do civil leaders know that a pastor is publishing this kind of garbage on the internet?

Who’s responsible for PB? This is a bit of a train wreck.

25   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 12:10 am

Do me a favor. Imagine for a minute that you are back in college. You’re in the middle of midterms and your busting your tail to get everything done. Next week, you’re going to Florida for vacation. You’re a strong Christian, (lie)who loves God and has worked hard to live a life that honors him. (lie)You strive to live a pure life that is honoring and glorifying to God. (lie)Finally, you fly down to the beach. Ahh, sweet bliss. You go out to the beach, open a cold beer and plan on having a fun day.(lie)
Now, change gears a little. You’re out of college but you and your friends have been going to Florida for years. You fly down, slip into a bathing suit and grab a cooler and some chairs and head to the beach.
Suddenly, in the middle of your throwing a football back and forth a Muslim shows up. Now, he’s not just trying to engage people in conversation and talk to them,(lie) he’s with a group of friends and they’ve brought a P.A. system with them. It squeaks every five minutes or so. (lie) He starts yelling (lie)that you’re a whore (lie) and that you are on your way to Hell (partial lie). There’s no discussing with this guy(lie). In fact, if you come up close to him, he’ll point his finger at you(lie) and call you a whore(lie)/drunk(lie)/slut (lie), whatever over the PA system.
Now, you could move. You could pick up all of your stuff and head on down the beach but should you have to do that? Does this Muslim, who just says that he’s doing Allah’s work when the cops show up, have the right to make you listen to him? Does he have the right to call all who don’t follow the Koran pagans? Do you have a right to some level of peace and quiet? Should the Muslim be arrested? Can I be honest? I think that he should be.
When the good Muslim is confronted, he points out that many of his religions earlier followers debated people publicly and openly(kie). When you point out that happened in synagogues and other places where it was expected and not on a vacation front(lie), our happy Muslim begins to praise Allah for the persecution he is under for sharing Allah’s good news(lie). When you call the police and they show up and threaten to have he man arrested, he again praises Allah(lie), and mumbles about the persecution he is under. He laments the state of our country that won’t allow him to make you listen to his “preaching.(lie)” Finally, in a desperate act you fling a football his way that knocks him out cold. One of his compatriots will later write about how blessed he almost was to have died while serving Allah.
Parenthetically, imagine if this same Muslim street preacher showed up at certain ODM’s/ADM’s vacation? Can you imagine the blog posts? After you have fun with that for a few minutes go back to your vacation…
Would you be angry? Would you just want the guy to shut up so you could enjoy your vacation? I imagine that a lot of these people felt the same way about a man preaching at them about Jesus.

26   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 12:11 am

PB is responsible for PB.

Who is responsible for Joe?

27   M.G.    
April 7th, 2009 at 12:14 am

That doesn’t concern me as much. Joe seems particularly adept at getting a rise out of you, but is otherwise pretty harmless.

Claiming that the Muslim method for evangelism is threats of murder is anything but harmless.

28   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 6:17 am

John – I do remember Paul says he was happy the gospel was preached even of contention. I remember Jesus approved of some that were preaching Him but not of His inner circle. As I have said, I may have issues with the methodology, but I give you credit for am attempt to reach people.

Could you give us a few testimonies of kids that actually responded to Christ on the beach? Were you in that video?

29   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 6:37 am

John – if that was you in that video, and that is your method of evangelism, why do you film and post it? And why wasn’t there any filming of someone responding to the gospel? I do not understand the motive for filming it and it seemed like much of the video was intent on showing some of the worst behavior of these kids.

Would we not expect drunken, lost, spring breakers to be somewhat hostile to preaching, especially that type of preaching? I just do not understand the filming of those events without even one sinner coming to Christ.

30   room2blog    http://room2blog.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 6:49 am

PB: I am wondering on what grounds you evaluate whether someone you met on that beach was Christian or not?

It’s obvious that a lot of those people do not live up to what would be considered a “Christian lifestyle”.
But there were several instances where you (or someone else from your crew) replied to people who said “I’m a Christian…” with “No, you’re not!”. Drinking beer, wearing a bikini, partying = not Christian? At least that’s the impression I get from this video.

31   Bo Diaz    
April 7th, 2009 at 7:41 am

PB is responsible for PB.

Precisely the problem. Just like all the other ADMs, totally unaccountable to anyone.

32   Bo Diaz    
April 7th, 2009 at 7:45 am

Anyone else see the irony of PB telling someone to “be a man and contact me directly”?

Has PB ever contacted anyone he slanders on his website directly?

33   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 7:45 am

“Who is responsible for Joe?”

Erica.

34   K. (aka Common Sense Christian)    
April 7th, 2009 at 8:13 am

Oh boy, more needless infighting over nothing…

35   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 9:01 am

#27
There were many stories, but the two I remember most vividly were the kid who came to me and told me the story of his life and family troubles, his drug addictions, his sadness over having nothing to live for, and his plan to kill himself that night had he not heard the message. He wanted more information. Through tears and remorse, he struggled to understand a loving, grace filled God who could and who would forgive him for everything he had ever done. I prayed with him that he would find Christ.

Another girl was in front of our scaffold visibly impacted by the message (tears, etc.) at the session where I was purposely knocked out. When I came to, she was now verbally weeping and crying out to God for forgiveness, and encouraging the others around me to do the same.

There were many other conversations that ranged from the why and the how of what we were doing through deep theological conversations with Christian students from other ministries. We heard stories of repentance from people. No one can judge the legitimacy of their conversion in a single day, but they testified to it.
#28 We film for our protection and for the protection of the people we are speaking to, we film all interactions with police and other officials. It is also a training tool, an encouragement for others to be bold and to preach. I did not get permission from any of the students I filmed one on one to post their stuff on the net, and there was some pretty private stuff on there, so I won’t. But we don’t preach out of some desire to get a notch on our belts like some down there who were keeping tabs on how many said a sinners prayer. No, our success was measured in whether or not we were obedient in preaching the word.
#29
Well, Jesus said by their fruits you shall know them, room. When a professed christian uses terms like f*ck, mother f*c&er, etc., is drunk before noon, and is dressed immodestly while proudly stating they plan on fornicating during spring break, it is a pretty good indication. But you can refer to 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and know that these behaviors are indicative of those who will not inherit the kingdom of God, and verse 11-12 which indicates that we were (past tense) these things before, and we are no longer partakers of these things.

Thank you four the honest questions. The rest of you can hate.

36   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 9:07 am

The rest of you can hate.

Whatever PB… no one “hates” you… disagreement is not hate or a sin… unless I guess you are in the ODM/ADM camp…

I think the method is not as effective… and that you might do better not insulting people while preaching, but do rejoice that someone did get saved… or at least said a pray… hope it sticks.

iggy

37   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 9:25 am

The rest of you can hate.

Is that seriously what you think? That people here hate you?

That makes me sad.

38   jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 9:39 am

#30 should end this discussion.

39   Joe    
April 7th, 2009 at 9:42 am

This entire article is a lie and a gutless swipe at me.

Haha. Fail. It’s a piece written to make a point. I don’t think anyone should have the legal right to take a PA system onto a public beach and force people to listen to them. I think anyone who does so, should be arrested and put in jail. I don’t think what happens in that video looks anything like Christ or Paul. You’re subsequent comments in this post only further prove how little you know of the world you’re trying to reach. BTW, since I made up the Muslim, how can I lie about him? If you think I was trying to give an exact blow by blow of what you guys did, you’re more Narcissistic than I thought. You’re tagged in this post, because you’re in the video, and you provided the link. You and your “defenders” provided links to these videos.

40   Joe    
April 7th, 2009 at 9:45 am

The gloves are off, Joe. Bring it on.

haha. Wow. that scared me. You’re post over at your wittle web page sure hurt my feelings, John. haha
oooooo

41   Joe    
April 7th, 2009 at 9:49 am

Ok, I can’t find where he said, “Be a man and contact me.” I’ve looked. Even searched it and can’t find it. I did take the time to read through where he put his markers calling what I wrote a lie. That’s some funny stuff too.

42   Joe    
April 7th, 2009 at 9:51 am

John, John, John,
On my blog you said I am “full of it.” Full of what, John?

43   Bo Diaz    
April 7th, 2009 at 9:59 am

Joe, next time you have a problem, be a man and contact me face to face.

Its at the beginning of the last paragraph.

I have a feeling that if Jesus had yelled and condemned the sinners at Matthew’s party he would have been welcomed by the Pharisees instead of crucified by them.

44   Bo Diaz    
April 7th, 2009 at 10:00 am

Joe,
Haven’t you learned yet that you can refer to shit as anything other than shit and God is ok with it? You can say it, or skubula or any other number of things, but if you say shit, then God’s grace just isn’t big enough to cover you.

45   Joe    
April 7th, 2009 at 10:05 am

Haha. Yeah, I found it. That whole post cracked me up. I honestly appreciated it. I’ve been a little down and that post cheered me up. We should compile all of the silly things said.
1. The gloves are off—what does that mean?
2. Joe is an expert in referential speaking—um what?
3. Be a man–John appealing to my testosterone is going to make me jump up and dance for him.
4. Joe, you hate the gospel–haha. Oh John.

46   Bo Diaz    
April 7th, 2009 at 10:12 am

2. Joe is an expert in referential speaking—um what?

See, the problem is you refer to concepts, ideas and objects when speaking. You need to be vague and non-specific when speaking if you’re ever going to live up to the high standards set by ADMs. Take, for example, any given headline at “Apprising” “Ministries”, notice how it mixes together words that don’t actually mean anything like “post-liberal”. That’s what you need to be aiming for if you plan to use english the ADM way.

47   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 10:42 am

Joe,

This is why I will not have coffee with PB, you just never know when he will flip out and he seems to use veiled threats… which of course he will deny… but read in a way, PB is an angry person who may resort to violence if provoked… such as the statement of using his car to run over Bin Laden…

Personally, I see PB as ill and in serious need of help.

I appreciate his boldness, yet in that boldness he needs to temper it with love, kindness and respect for those he is attempting to bring to God’s kindness that leads to true repentance.

We need to pray for PB…

iggy

48   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 10:48 am

#44
1. The gloves are off- I will respond to you in kind. I hope you are a Christian but I am beginning to wonder.
2. You cannot simply say that you hate the way that we preach and the message that we preach and the method that we preach. Its funny…MTV had larger speakers which spewed perversion, yet no mention of these in your posts.
3. Be a man and write what you really want to write. Say what you mean! Be direct! Don’t side talk!
4. Joe, you do hate the Gospel.

49   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 10:50 am

#46
Iggy, you are the one who uses veiled threats that you know how to handle yourself, a 300 plus lb ex-biker who used to roll with the Hells Angels or something….

50   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 10:50 am

Comment 47 makes my point…

iggy

51   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 10:52 am

No PB… that is not how it went… but truth elludes you… and reality shifts with the sand with you…

iggy

52   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 10:53 am

Joe, as Rob Bell says…

breathe..

ruach

53   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 10:53 am

Admit it PB, right not you are out of control angry… you need help… seek counselling please.

iggy

54   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 10:54 am

sorry that should be..

right now you are out of control angry

55   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 10:54 am

whatever, Iggy…whatever.
ruach.

56   Bo Diaz    
April 7th, 2009 at 10:55 am

You cannot simply say that you hate the way that we preach and the message that we preach and the method that we preach. Its funny…MTV had larger speakers which spewed perversion, yet no mention of these in your posts.

When you start applying for the permits that MTV does, and actually renting the property that you’re using the way MTV does then no one will complain.

Which brings us to:

Joe, you do hate the Gospel.

I don’t see how you can state this since the particular perversion spewed through your smaller speakers wasn’t the gospel. It was pure works based theology.

And certainly the methodology being used had nothing of the gospel in it.

57   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 10:55 am

Confess your sin PB and be set free… that is the start of healing…

58   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 7th, 2009 at 10:55 am

4. Joe, you do hate the Gospel.

I admit that I hate your version of the gospel if that’s any consolation to you…

I don’t really have any problem saying it, as I grew up around it and I’ve seen the long term fruit it produces in its, um, converts.

When we make the gospel primarily about sin management, to steal a term from Dallas Willard, we strip it of its power. People aren’t estranged from God because they’re sinning. They’re sinning because they’re estranged from God.

59   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 10:56 am

What if Rob Bell showed up on your vacation? (and preached)
The world would agree with him. Luke 6:26 pat him on the back, and pass him a beer.

60   Bo Diaz    
April 7th, 2009 at 10:56 am

If Jesus had acted like an ADM, the Pharisees would have embraced him.

61   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 10:59 am

PB,

I don’t agree with Rob Bell on all things, but I don’t hate him and need to misrepresent what he teaches… or make fun of how he looks…

But I would gladly have a beer with him and discuss in a friendly manner what we agree and disagree on…

Disagreement is not sin… anger is… hate is…

Confess your sin and be set free PB…

iggy

62   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 11:00 am

Phil,
The Gospel is about sin removal, not sin management. The world is already condemned, Jesus came to save us from our sin and from death.

Why not use a quote from the Bible instead of Dallas Willard?

People sin, because it is in their nature to sin. People love darkness rather than light. Dallas Willard apparently has not read Ephesians 2 where it is made clear that we are children of wrath.

63   Bo Diaz    
April 7th, 2009 at 11:01 am

What if Rob Bell showed up on your vacation? (and preached)
The world would agree with him. Luke 6:26 pat him on the back, and pass him a beer.

You have no idea how the world works if you think anyone can show up on a beach full of vacationers and start preaching and anyone will do anything but get pissed off.

And what’s your problem with beer? All of the dead theologians you’ve turned into idols by redacting their histories enjoyed a good brew.

64   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 11:01 am

#59
Bo Diaz
John 7 disputes this.

65   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 7th, 2009 at 11:03 am

I would probably offer Rob Bell a beer…

It’s interesting to me that this “offering a beer” thing is like the epitome of scandal. The whole irony of Jesus turning the water reserved for ceremonial cleaning into wine for a party seems to be lost on some people…

66   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 11:06 am

The Gospel is about sin removal, not sin management.

To a degree this is true… but then you must believe that you are without sin now… you have reached sinless perfection? Now that is a lie and heresy and denies the inner working of Jesus in a believers life… it denies the power of the Holy Spirit to change someone.

After one comes to faith in Christ we still sin, the sin is not held against us as there is no condemnation for those in Christ… and we have a mediator for when we do sin… yet what you are missing is the principle of discipleship…

As we are discipled and being transformed into the image of Christ, our minds which still contain the natural fallen state of thinking need be renewed… we grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ…

Somewhere it seems you miss this in the bible PB… and it keeps you from real growth…

Confess your sin be set free from your anger…

iggy

67   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 11:06 am

#64
So much so that they used it as a justification not for drinking (not wrong) but getting drunk (wrong)

68   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 11:07 am

From John 7

“Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”
(verse 24 ESV)

69   Joe    
April 7th, 2009 at 11:09 am

John,
I honestly feel badly for you. You saying I’m not a man or at least implying it by saying be a man, really doesn’t impact me all that much. You never did answer, what am I full of? People not liking you because you’re a bully and jerk isn’t the am as people not liking you because you’re standing for Jesus.
I love the good news of the gospel. Love wins, John.

70   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 11:09 am

#65
Shall we continue to sin so that grace may increase? May it never be!
I have written this to you that you will not sin. But if you do sin, we have an advocate…

I am not saying I am sinlessly perfect. Lord knows I am not nor will I be until I am in glory.

But there is a HUGE difference between stumbling into sin and DIVING into it, using 1 John 1:9 as a get out of jail free card.

71   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 7th, 2009 at 11:09 am

Ephesians 2 backs up my argument, actually:

11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

We were sinners who were objects of wrath because we were trapped in the consequences of our sin. We sinned because we were “far away” from Christ. We are”brought near” by the blood of Christ. We are now part of Christ’s household and we aren’t imprisoned by our old desires.

Sin wasn’t our problem, per se, but rather that we wanted to sin, and that our separation from God trapped us in a viscous cycle.

God doesn’t just remove sin. He gives us a new heart.

72   Bo Diaz    
April 7th, 2009 at 11:11 am

I read through John 7 and it said nothing about using speakers to interrupt vacations in public spaces.

I did read through Proverbs and it had a lot to say about rude loudmouths.

73   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 11:11 am

#68
I stated that you are full of LIES
There were 19 in that post, 20 if you say that it was not directed at my friends and I

You are just following your leader Rob Bell and Bullhorn. At least he actually was kind of direct.

And why does he film videos, anyway?

74   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 11:12 am

Bo: If Jesus had acted like an ADM, the Pharisees would have embraced him.

PB: John 7 disputes this.

What Bible do you read? John 7 confirms Bo’s comment. To the pharisees it was all about maintaining the “traditional” approach and going beyond the letter of the law. It was about strict adherence to externals, as they defined them. The Pharisees were the ADM’s of the first century – theologically the closest to Jesus of any religious movement within Judaism – and they were the ones he criticized the most!

When I watched this video, I was reminded of Jesus’ admonition to the Pharisees:

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

Surely – SURELY – there are unbelievers up there in Minnesota that can be witnessed to, humbly, and walked with day-by-day, regardless of their willingness to repent. Does it really require making an ass of yourself 1500 miles away and broadcasting it to the world on YouTube to be a witness? Please.

75   rabanes    http://abanes.com
April 7th, 2009 at 11:13 am

PB: Aaron, actually, the video is of my friends and I, and it is tagged pastorboy.

RA: It’s interesting, at least to me, that you’d choose to go to a beach where you could see a bevy of bikini-clad nubile young things scampering around uninhibited. Oh well. That’s another post, I suppose.

Now, as for your methods, they are unbiblical. You reflect neither the teaching/preaching style, nor the evangelism style, of Jesus Christ — the best preacher who ever lived. You don’t even mirror John the Baptist.

John did not run around to where unbelievers were trying to relax and then scream at them like an insensitive nut. The people WENT OUT TO SEE John (Luke 7:25).

Jesus primarily spoke to people (preached/taught) on a person-to-person, relational basis as he traveled from city to city. And when he did indeed speak to large crowds, again, these people came to hear him.

Even if what you did were actually biblical, then I fail to see why you and your friends found it necessary to scream & yell at people. Why didn’t you simply:

- express your own faith in God,
- talk about or own testimony,
- tell everyone about the PERSON of Jesus Christ and share some of the things he did in the Bible,
- do a comparison of different religions and finish about the uniqueness of Christianity….

There are dozens of ways to do what it seemed you were attempting to do. I didn’t hear an ounce of love, compassion, tenderness, joy, peace, kindness, understanding, hope, or anything else vaguely Christian in all your ranting and raving.

You and others like you seem to feel that getting people upset, hurting people, making others angry, and making sure they hate you is biblical. It’s not biblical — it’s twisted and sick. And, more importantly, it harms the spreading of the Gospel and misrepresents Jesus.

So, I would ask that you stop using the Bible as an excuse to be obnoxious. And also stop using the need for evangelism as an excuse to soothe your own psychological itches that can only be scratched when creating “persecution” for yourself via insensitive barking at people.

That’s not Jesus. That’s not biblical. That’s not evangelism. That’s not God-honoring.

Congratulations, btw, you just made those people even harder to reach for Christ now because when they think of “Christian,” they’re going to see you and that asinine stunt you pulled. All they wanted to do was get a break from life and enjoy God’s creation — maybe see a street juggler or an amateur magician. Instead, they got you.

Way to go….

RA

76   Erica    http://joemartino.name/erica
April 7th, 2009 at 11:13 am

Pastorboy,
I read your post and I am assuming I can not comment on your blog because I do not have word press.
You quoted what Joe said and wrote lie after every sentence but then went on to explain why the microphone screeched. Why you called people drunks and picked on their clothing. That seems odd to me. You said you did not say those things and then admitted they were said.
No matter what the situation was how you approached those individuals on the beach was wrong. It was inappropriate and rude.
You can pick on Rob and Mars all you want but I urge you to show me one place where Jesus treated others the way you did on the beach?
The Jesus you serve is not the one of the bible I read. I am sorry.
What happens Pastor Boy after you stand there and condemn these people? Do you lead them in a little a prayer and walk away and feel good about yourself that you saved one more soul? I am asking not accusing. I seriously want to know your process here. It concerns me.
This does not feel good I assume based on your reaction to Joe. Maybe you, Ken, and Ingrid should consider how those you write about feel. Joe believes he represented you well. You feel he wronged you. That is how people you write about feel. Now that it is you under the microscope it does not feel so good does it?

77   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 11:13 am

God doesn’t just remove sin. He gives us a new heart.

Amen Phil. We are made new creatures in Christ!

78   Joe    
April 7th, 2009 at 11:13 am

Oh John,
A bully says one thing and then when called on it tries to say another. You were trying to say something else but evidently don’t have the intestinal fortitude to say it. This post was not directed at only you and your friends, it was directed at people who take speakers to public vacations. Certainly, I had you and your friends in mind when I was putting it together. You brag all the time about your street preaching. I’m curious do you also handle snakes?

79   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 11:14 am

I stated that you are full of LIES
There were 19 in that post, 20 if you say that it was not directed at my friends and I

You’ve not even remotely demonstrated any of the supposed “lies”… In fact, all of your “(lie)” denotations were pretty stupidly placed, and had no basis of argument, let alone fact…

80   Joe    
April 7th, 2009 at 11:15 am

For the record, the details of my post were not an attempt to document John and his friends every move. But I am pretty close…

81   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 11:15 am

PB,

I think I have stated many times that we are free to NOT SIN… and that if one continues in sin they may not be saved or have issues that need to be overcome with the inner workings of the Holy Spirit.

Yet, to say we, as believers do not manage sin… is a lie… as that is the process of growing… that we learn to manage sin so that by the power of God we learn the truth from error and learn to walk in the Spirit in purity… we may never get perfect in this, yet I can give personal testimony how God can change a person… especially in overcoming anger.

I hope you can see the error in your thinking that one must stop all sin to be accepted by Jesus… that is impossible… but we must trust Jesus in spite of what we see as sin in ourselves and believe He overcomes it in our shortcomings… that is mercy and grace…

iggy

82   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 11:28 am

Erica,
I believe you can comment on my blog.

Well, it was obvious they were drunk, so I warned them that drunkards will not enter the kingdom of heaven (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

I would ask if they planned to have sex outside of marriage, and I warned them again that no fornicator would enter the kingdom of heaven (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

I used the law lawfully (see 1 Timothy 1:8-12) to make the people there aware of their disease that they were revelling in, for the purpose of sharing the good news that they could be saved.

To those who called themselves Christians, we reminded them that if they name the name of Christ, they ought to depart for evil. We reminded the ladies and gentlemen that if they named the name of Jesus that they should dress modestly.

Of course, none of them believed they needed saving. Many believed if they simply ask forgiveness, they would be forgiven. I submit to RAbanes that is not Biblical, and it is what we battled against. It is because of the teaching of the so called Pastors he defends.

We are like a doctor or a dentist using a tool (the law) to probe until we can convince the patient of their disease (sin) that they do not recognize will lead to death. Then we offer the cure (the Gospel) which will give them a new heart with new desires.

I appreciate your direct approach. I would have much preferred this approach in the OP. You do not agree, but you are direct and ask reasonable questions.

To Chris L:
I do this everywhere I go, and where I live. I am an evangelist. When I hear of 100,000 plus people gathered in one local area, I think that is a good place to go, especially when many in our college here were there.

To RAbanes
Just because your perverted heart would think about the ‘nubile’ people running around and you push that desire off on us does not make it true. It actually disgusted me.

83   rabanes    http://abanes.com
April 7th, 2009 at 11:29 am

Pastorboy,

I’m still waiting for you to answer my #166 in the last thread regarding doctrinal errors and false teachings I am spreading.

____________BEGIN
Please feel free to bring up any [of my] false doctrines concerning:

God
Jesus
soteriology
thanatology
eschatology
_______ [fill in blank]

___________________END

Am I to assume by your silence that you agree I am biblically orthodox, doctrinally sound, and committed to defending the fiath once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3)?

RA

84   Brett S    
April 7th, 2009 at 11:31 am

Does it really require making an ass of yourself 1500 miles away and broadcasting it to the world on YouTube to be a witness? – Chris L

Chris L,

That may not have been the most charitable comment, but your ability to sum up that entire video in one sentence amazes me!
I couldn’t watch the whole thing.

85   Bo Diaz    
April 7th, 2009 at 11:32 am

Gee PB, good thing you’ve earned your salvation by not being a drunkard or a fornicator.

86   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 11:35 am

Chris L,
I have documented the lies.
I can do it again, if you so choose.
We did not point fingers and call people whores, sluts. drunks.
We did not tell them they were going to Hell. We told them that the consequences of sin is death and hell. We explained in a logical manner the justification for Hell. We told them that their destination would be heaven or Hell. We told them what was needed to attend the former rather than the latter. we told them that they didn’t have to change anything to go to the latter.
The synagogues, temples, and marketplaces were the places hung out. There was no Spring Break, no vacations in Rome or Israel while Paul and Jesus did their thing.

phew…
we did engage in conversation with individuals.
If they approached with a question we would repeat the question and answer it.
Our PA did not squeak every 5 minutes.
We did not stand in the middle of anyones football game.
We were on public property.

87   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 11:37 am

Bo,

Neither I nor anyone can earn our salvation.

Just so you know, it is by Grace alone.

88   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 11:40 am

it is by Grace alone

When I begin to catch even a glimpse of this truth, it compels me to extend grace even to those who have not earned it, which is (I believe) what makes it grace.

89   rabanes    http://abanes.com
April 7th, 2009 at 11:41 am

PB: Many believed if they simply ask forgiveness, they would be forgiven. I submit to RAbanes that is not Biblical, and it is what we battled against. It is because of the teaching of the so called Pastors he defends.

RA: LoL. First, where in the world did you get the kooky idea that I defend anyone who says all you have to do is just ask some amorphous, subjective, non-specific God that you want forgiveness and bingo, it’s done? LoL.

And as for the “pastors” (plural) that I defend, I have no idea who you’re talking about because none of them teach anything like that. Odd, PB, really odd.
____________
PB: Just because your perverted heart would think about the ‘nubile’ people running around and you push that desire off on us does not make it true.

RA: Oh, really? And you know this? You know that I am secretly pushing my own desire in that area on to you? Okay. And exactly when/how did you gain the ability to read minds?

What I actually stated in my post was that I found it “interesting, at least to me,” that you’d choose your location. Why? I’ll tell you. I found int interesting because there are actually a number of better places you could have gone, TBH.

For example, you could have gone out at night to a long line of clubbers waiting outside a club. There, to be honest, you’d get more truly decadent people just about ready to seriously sin, but with nothing to do except stand there and listen to you.

Or, you could go door to door! Hey, there’s a novel idea. Even unbelieving cultists understand that if someone invites you into their home, then you’re half-way to conversion because they are INTERESTED. They WANT to hear what you have to say. So, why not do that and film it (not very provocative, huh?)

So, I’m not sure why, if you were really interested in people not being distracted from your message, you didn’t do either one of the above and film it for the world. hence, interesting.

RA

90   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 11:42 am

I couldn’t watch the whole thing.

It took me multiple tries. I ended up starting in the middle where I left off, so as to not have to re-watch much of the earlier parts.

Here’s the thing:

I go to almost every Purdue home football game, and root for my team with the rest of the fans in my section. A couple years ago, we had a guy in our section (a Purdue fan) who came (from several states away) to the games plastered, and who re-lubricated himself at half-time (we’ll just call him “Bob”). He would shout obscenities at the refs, the other team, and even our own players, and make a general ass of himself. That year, I only took my girls to one game, and we left at half-time.

Sometimes, you get folks who are just so embarrassing and such boorish representatives of your team that you really wish they would watch from the privacy of their own homes, so as to not reflect poorly on the entire school.

PastorBoy is Bob. Plain and simple. The ends do not justify the means, and being a jerk – whether with good motives or not – is still being a jerk.

91   rabanes    http://abanes.com
April 7th, 2009 at 11:42 am

Pastorboy,

I’m still waiting for you to answer my #166 in the last thread regarding doctrinal errors and false teachings I am spreading.

____________BEGIN
Please feel free to bring up any (of my) false doctrines concerning:

God
Jesus
soteriology
thanatology
eschatology
_______ [fill in blank]

_________END

Am I to assume by your silence that you agree I am biblically orthodox, doctrinally sound, and committed to defending the faith once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3)?

RA

92   Bo Diaz    
April 7th, 2009 at 11:43 am

If you only you really believed that Pastor Boy.

93   Erica    http://searchingthesunsets.com/erica
April 7th, 2009 at 11:48 am

Pastorboy,
Hmmm I can’t figure out how to comment on your blog or I would have this conversation there.
I am still confused. You obviously believe it is your job to remind others of their sins even those who profess they know Jesus. Do you not believe in the Holy Spirit?
Define dressing modestly for me? Is drinking a beer wrong? I don’t see this any where in the bible. Maybe you believe it is wrong for you to drink a beer, maybe you have a standard of dressing for yourself but why does others have to live by the same standards you set for yourself?

94   rabanes    http://abanes.com
April 7th, 2009 at 11:51 am

Bo,

I think pastorboy believes that with his head (such as it is), but the way he lives out his “faith” and the judgments he puts on others would logically point to another concept he has of salvation. However, this does not mean he is at all aware of it.

I’m sure that PB consciously truly believes salvation is by grace alone — the problem is that he just doesn’t act or preach that way where the rubber meets the road. And he can’t even begin to see the error of his ways.

The mental disconnect in him is apparent when he’s asked straightforward questions, but no coherent answers are forthcoming and no actual documentation that is accurate is presented. That’s when he usually reverts back to just hurling a scripture at someone.

RA

95   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 11:52 am

If I had time I would transcribe the videos and show the times PB stated things he claims he did not…

Funny how others can listen and hear what was said, yet PB cannot remember these things being said by him or others in his group…

Really I do think PB can’t remember… he has a selective memory and an amazing ability to reconstruct reality to fit his own version…

iggy

96   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 7th, 2009 at 11:58 am

We are like a doctor or a dentist using a tool (the law) to probe until we can convince the patient of their disease (sin) that they do not recognize will lead to death. Then we offer the cure (the Gospel) which will give them a new heart with new desires.

There you go again – trying to do the Holy Spirit’s job for him.

It’s not our job to convict people of sin, no matter how much of a favor we think we are doing them. The problem is that we enjoy too much, honestly. We gain too much spiritual pride from it.

97   rabanes    http://abanes.com
April 7th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

Eric: Define dressing modestly….

RA: Evangelists having fun at the beach with a good girl….all “modestly dressed.”

RA

98   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

This thread has deteriorated and left the issue of evangelisic methodology.

99   Joe    
April 7th, 2009 at 12:21 pm

#97
I agree.

100   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

On the campus of the University of South Florida there was a group that wore T-shirts saying “OBEY GOD”. They would shout about the torture of hell, and many a student thought that was representative of Jesus Christ.

Jesus said “If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto Me”. We lift Christ up through Word and deed.

101   room2blog    http://room2blog.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

PB: Well, Jesus said by their fruits you shall know them, room. When a professed christian uses terms like f*ck, mother f*c&er, etc., is drunk before noon, and is dressed immodestly while proudly stating they plan on fornicating during spring break, it is a pretty good indication.

room2: Ok, were those girls at the end of the video drunk and cursing at you? All I see and hear is them saying “I’m Christian…” and someone else denying their faith. I cannot see how this is biblical. Rebuke as much as you believe is necessary, but do so in love and adequacy.

Concerning the immodesty-stance: It’s a beach! People wear swimwear at the beach.

The thing is, I’m highly ambivalent on your evangelization: On the one hand I commend your determination to go out and preach about Jesus. As Rick already stated: Paul urges us to preach, preach, preach, whether the message and methodology is well thought through, as long as we preach Jesus life, death and resurrection.

Still, I see a lot of self-righteousness and uncalled for condemnation from your crew in the videos as well as in the titles of the video. I see your team turning around the nature of sin in your message. You preach to the people that they are lost because they sin, when in fact the gospels and the epistles make it clear that people sin because they are lost.
You seem to offer no grace to professing Christians who seem to be straying from the ideal (in your eyes).
To be quite honest, if I were at that beach, I would walk up to you and rebuke you as a Brother in Christ and ask you to repent because you are utterly misrepresenting the Gospel and the Grace of Jesus Christ.
To be even more honest, if I were at the beach with my girlfriend and you started hurling hurtful comments at her because she is wearing a bikini I might just center my fist right to your jaw (which might end painful for me, I think you are about 40lbs heavier than me). I know that this is not a christlike reaction, but I’m just not sure that I would be able to direct my (justified) anger into a healthier one.

102   Joe    
April 7th, 2009 at 12:31 pm

#100.
You know, he must be referring to a differnent video b/c those girls were not drunk and in this comment thread he said they were drunk and trying to hide their beer. The girl that was trying to hide the beer did not appear to be drunk.

103   Bo Diaz    
April 7th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

What? John lying about someone else in order to make his ridiculous accusations look better? What’s that line about history repeating itself?

104   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

I wonder if the sensational aspect of spring break factored in? Why not preach outside a large financial institution? I reiterate what I once shared: a church I know went to Daytona Beach and provided their cars as free taxis for drunken partiers. As they rode, they asked them where they were from, they shared about the ages of their own children, and they handed them some literature as they left and said they would pray for them.

Somehow I feel that those seeds were more appropriate.

105   nc    
April 7th, 2009 at 12:48 pm

As if being drunk before noon makes being drunk any worse.

sheesh.

106   nc    
April 7th, 2009 at 12:50 pm

It’s clear that the beach exercise is more about confirming ones own “right-ness”.

You spread the gospel alright.

Praise you for communicating the good news of your own righteousness to yourself.

107   pastoraldude    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 1:07 pm

I am not surprised that apostatw pr soon to be apostates would react in this way. It is a sign of the times. I wash my hands and shake the dust off my feet.

108   Joe    
April 7th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

OK, I have no idea what he just said, but John is clearly using mulitple NIC’s which is a clear violation of our policies. Time for moderation. Of course, if he can be taken at his word, he’s leaving so it might be a moot point.

109   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

#106–is that a promise or a threat?

110   nc    
April 7th, 2009 at 1:27 pm

shaking dust off your feet?
You have your shoes off?

So that’s what I smell…

;)

111   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 1:32 pm

Does anyone have the gift of interpretation?

I’m not getting “…apostatw pr…

112   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 1:32 pm

end quote

113   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 1:44 pm

And behold – the apostate card has been played. Why did it take so long? :cool:

114   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 1:58 pm

And yes, Joe, he is now on moderation…

115   room2blog    http://room2blog.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 2:02 pm

> I’m not getting “…apostatw pr…

means “apostates or”

Never knew I had the gift of interpretation :) .

116   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 2:04 pm

room,
thanks.

now go and exercise you gift ;)

117   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 2:04 pm

or your gift…either or

118   Jesse    
April 7th, 2009 at 2:20 pm

So, the Gospel should only be presented on Sunday, or in the privacy of conversation? The Gospel should only be presented when it’s convenient for the listener? The Gospel can’t be presented to someone on vacation?

Was this an effective presentation of the Gospel? I don’t know, maybe not, but at least they are out there doing it. I think we like to make fun of these people and mock their boldness because we would be absolutely terrified to do the same thing ourselves. The fact is that evangelizing in the book of Acts looked much more like that than we want to believe.

119   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 2:29 pm

The Gospel can’t be presented to someone on vacation?

No one even hinted at such a statement.

120   Aaron    
April 7th, 2009 at 2:31 pm

I return one day later and there’s 100 more posts, I just can’t keep up with you guys. :( Anyways…

#23

So apparently simply being wrong or incorrect is lying. Even if it’s in ignorance, it’s still lying. I think I see why PB is so angry and spiteful toward people, he doesn’t allow grace in people’s words or thoughts, doesn’t allow them to explain what they said or allow them to simply be corrected.

Nope, just jump straight toward “Liar!”.

121   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 2:32 pm

You have a point, Jesse.
And trying to balance out this comment thread is great.

My last comment sounded short, and it was not meant too.

Thanks for your input.

122   Joe    
April 7th, 2009 at 2:33 pm

Sorry Jesse, that (somewhat self righteous) horse won’t ride here. That video doesn’t look like what Jesus or Paul did. Well, it looks like the movie portrayals but that’s it. You don’t know anyone here. Just because we don’t videotape ourselves sharing the gospel doesn’t mean we don’t. It may be accurate to say you’d be terrified but I’ve been there and done the whole open air evangelism thing. I even lead a team that did it. So I guess you get a FAIL too.

123   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 7th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

I must have missed the part in Acts about portable sound systems…

I don’t doubt that there was a lot of open air speaking in the book of Acts, but one thing to remember is that was a primary method of speaking to large groups of people back then. There were men who were basically professional orators (kind of like President Obama.. I kid, I kid) who went around from town to town presenting speeches on various subjects. In many ways the speeches recorded in Acts follow the pattern of these types of speeches.

It is debatable whether this method of communication is the best way to communicate with people today. The normal way of communication in 21st century America is generally not standing on a street corner or beach yelling. It seems to me that if we are genuinely interested in communicating with people alive today, we should do it in a way that they understand and is meaningful to them.

124   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 2:40 pm

As long as the gospel it presented in Biblical clarity with love, passion, and respect it can be shared in any season or place. It should not be forced upon people by infringing upon their lives or invades the space they deserve and request.

Imagine this: Six men with microphones standing 20 feet from each other and sceaming at people on the beach. Here they are:

* Fred Phelps
* A Scientologist
* A Mormon
* An anarchist
* A pro-choice feminist
* A pro-life Preacer

Now that’s democracy, but it cannot be considered wise for an evangelical preacher to set up his microphone there. Especially when the beach goers are asking you to stop. Everyone of those young people have homes and communities in which to reach the.

Having said that I applaud John’s energy and boldness, but I seriously disagree with his method and his tone.

125   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 2:42 pm

You gotta watch out for those pro-life Preacers.

126   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 2:46 pm

Jesse,

If you read through the mess of threads you will see several of us state that we admire the boldness of PB to do as he does… the issue is not that he preaches on another day than Sunday (which is a rather bizare assertion and I am not even sure where that is coming from) or in private, (though I think that is most effective) but in how PB insults, judges and condemns those he is preaching at.

Notice I stated, “preaching at” as opposed to preaching to… the heart of a preacher is to bring people to Jesus not bring condemnation.

It is the methodology, meaning the words and attitude toward those was not loving or graceful… let alone merciful… rather it comes across as self serving. I was excited to hear the few positive results… but fear that those PB lead to Jesus were now left alone without follow up… PB has not stated whether this was so or not… but the buckshot/say a prayer and leaved them approach is really dangerous, especially if one is talking about suicide… in fact that is a stupid thing to do.

At age 14 I attempted suicide… I failed and by the grace of God realized there must be a purpose for my life… and in that found Jesus… others I know found Jesus, yet, still committed suicide because someone did not walk with them to help them sort out their junk… in fact they felt they could now die and go to heaven and took the short cut.

It is not a good approach… we can scatter seeds, but to bring someone to Jesus and abandon them is wrong.

Now someone might bring up Phillip and the Eunuch… and yes, God can take an isolated moment and save someone and they will be fine… yet, still to me, if you are part of bringing a new life into the family of God, then one need take some responsibility for that new born…

iggy

127   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 2:48 pm

I think we like to make fun of these people and mock their boldness because we would be absolutely terrified to do the same thing ourselves.

Terrified? I don’t think so. Actually, this method is much less threatening that one-on-one sharing w/ a friend or acquaintance. In such cases there’s a whole heckuva lot more on the line (relationships) than looking foolish in the public square, hundreds of miles from home where you’re unlikely to ever see the folks you’re shouting at ever again…

As I’ve noted before, in our Western society, it is much more difficult to live a life in humble service to a cause than to die nobly for one. The temptation to become a prideful martyr, along with its instant gratification are the only rewards of the latter approach…

The fact is that evangelizing in the book of Acts looked much more like that than we want to believe.

Not really. The Agora, where such debates/preaching/etc. took place in most cities, was known to have hundreds of religious speakers trying to attract people to their causes. The Hall of Scholars (in Ephesus) where Paul proclaimed the gospel was set aside for public debate of social, political and religious topics. In both cases, people went there voluntarily, for the purpose of being enlightened and to enlighten others.

A street corner or crowded beach is not analogous to the Agora or Hall of Philosophers (or Mars Hill in Athens). The better analogous situation was like what we had a week or two ago w/ Mark Driscoll on ABC Nightline (I think that was the show), or other similar situations – where the listeners are voluntary and the context of the speaking is understood and agreed to.

What these guys on the beach were doing resembled NOTHING like what Jesus, Paul, etc. did, and is little more than self-righteous chest-pounding. It makes the pounder feel good about himself, and everyone else around him doing a face-palm…

128   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 2:49 pm

“At age 14 I attempted suicide… I failed and by the grace of God realized there must be a purpose for my life… and in that found Jesus”

Our God makes all things new!! Praise His matchless name!!

129   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 2:53 pm

#118 – many of us in Florida have preached on some beach. We used to bring a guitar and sing and I would share my yestimony, and then would wish everyone God’s blessings. Most of the time some would come and speak with us.

It isn’t the boldness or even the passion to reach the young people, it is the methodology that doesn’t seem to be the most effective and can easily lend itself to pride and orchestrated persecution.

130   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 2:55 pm

yestimony? OK, I am decreasing my meds today!!

Hey Iggy, I love ya brother. You and I may not see eye to eye on some things, but your passion for Jesus Himself has always attracted me.

The full face mug shot on your blog is frightening!!

131   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 3:07 pm

Rick,
It makes sense that you would give your yestimony. Since you’re not a Calvinist, you had to choose and say “Yes.”

Okay…that was lame.
:)

132   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 3:13 pm

Nate – I have given my testimony, complete with the entire bank robbery scenario, and at the end of approximately 30 minutes I said, “And when I heard Billy Graham I place my faith on Jesus Christ”.

After reading it a reader responded by informing me that I did not place my faith on Christ, God just saved me. Of course he was a Calvinist so I asked him if he could ever rejoice in someone’s testimony of salvation without reviewing the theology of some of his verbiage. He said he could not.

Pretty sad.

133   Jesse    
April 7th, 2009 at 3:17 pm

#122 Joe,
If you’ll notice I used the words “we” and “us.” Of course there are exceptions, I’m certainly not calling anyone out specifically. We can disagree about the methodology, but if Pastorboy is to be believed (and I don’t have any reason to call him a liar), people were touched by the Gospel and people were saved. Personally I think Chick tracts are kind of silly, but I know people who were saved after reading one. Who am I to decide which methodologies are most effective? It’s the Lord who saves, not us.

I’m sorry but I just don’t see why evangelism like this should be mocked. They are bold and sharing the Gospel, what’s the problem?

134   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 7th, 2009 at 3:26 pm

I’m sorry but I just don’t see why evangelism like this should be mocked. They are bold and sharing the Gospel, what’s the problem?

For every person they possibly reach they inoculate ten others, for one (I’m probably being generous there).

The ends don’t justify the means. There’s probably people who have made last minute commitments to Christ while on a plane that was on its way down. That doesn’t mean that crashing planes is a preferable method of evangelism.

Seriously, though, I can appreciate the zeal in some way, but I also think that these type of things are more show than substance. I’ve been on evangelistic trips with different groups. I always got the sense that for many Christians, it was a way help their own conscience more than anything else.

135   Mr. Fancy Pants    
April 7th, 2009 at 3:28 pm

If I had to guess, I would think that none who are critiquing the evangelist preaching, either aren’t genuinely saved or never have witnessed to any one. Wine is a mocker and strong drink makes a man rage and he that partakes of it is not wise. Please visit http://www.examineyourself.com and see if you are really a Christian by God’s standards.

136   Jose    
April 7th, 2009 at 3:48 pm

We do alot of air preaching in my church and includes PA system and standing in a corner singing and preaching. So many lives have been reached through this “method”. I know most of you dont like it and mock it because its not your style. Again this is about methods.

137   Jesse    
April 7th, 2009 at 3:50 pm

Phil,
You may be right, but your assertion of inoculation is just subjective speculation. Is it more show than substance? Maybe, but I’m not sure it’s our place to say unless we know them personally.

138   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 3:51 pm

#136–I don’t happen to think it is about the method at all. It is about the message.

In that video, how many times did you coun’t someone using the word ‘grace’ and ‘forgiveness’ as opposed to ’sinner you’re going to hell unless you repent’?

Big difference. In the video, it’s all about what ‘we’ do and not about what God has done.

Huge difference.

139   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 3:52 pm

Sorry, i meant #136

140   Jose    
April 7th, 2009 at 3:54 pm

Jerry
I agree with you. What if the preacher in the video would have included grace and forgiveness? would it be accepted?

141   Joe    http://joemartino.name
April 7th, 2009 at 3:55 pm

Well, Welcome Mr. Fancy Pants…

What the…

142   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 3:55 pm

#135–if these people are drunken mockers, why bother preaching to them? Why not go an preach to people who can have a rational conversation and discussion about faith matters?

Are you so dull? So you are blaming the kids at the beach twice: they lose because they are sinners; and they lose because they are drunken sinners. You make no sense.

That video is self-serving blather designed to make those who are the ‘righteous’ in the video appear as martyrs for their ‘faith.’ Sorry. That dog won’t hunt.

143   Jesse    
April 7th, 2009 at 3:56 pm

Jerry,
We didn’t see the whole day, assuming that they didn’t preach forgiveness is just a guess on your part. Secondly, repentance precedes forgiveness, too many preachers these days leave that out in favor of touchy feely grace. It should not be one or the the other, we should teach repentance AND forgiveness, the wrath of God AND the love of God. Jesus taught both, so should we.

144   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 3:57 pm

If this may shed a little light on the topic of inoculation… I had heard the gospel many times through Jim and Tammy Baker… but could not accept it as I did not want to be like them… it was not until I heard Larry Norman and Degarmo and Key and found out Jesus accepted long haired rockers… then Jesus would accept me.

So some may respond to Jim and Tammy… I did not… I was turned off by them… Some might find Jesus in PB’s presentation… but many will be turned off.

On other note… it is not that people are saved through our preaching… many misused that passage in the bible in Romans 10… In fact, Paul is stating that though the Israelites heard the same Gospel they did not turn to it… so preaching and hearing are not what saves us… but “the message is heard through the word of Christ.”

It is from the utterance of Jesus that someone is saved or not… not in our works of preaching or hearing… Jesus calls and when we hear we respond. If PB shout “free fish-sticks” for an hour… and if Jesus calls people, then they would be saved…

I do not agree with Benny Hinn at all… but people get saved at his meetings… it is not Benny saving anyone… it is Jesus.

We forget this… often as we twist the passage in Romans to be about “preachers” and not about Jesus.

iggy

145   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 3:58 pm

Jose,

That’s a moot point because grace wasn’t offered. I can’t go back and rewrite what is already written. As I said, the video is self-serving blather.

Judgment has already been leveled against Christ Jesus at the cross. Now it is time for us to preach the forgiveness of sins and the grace of God who loves us–all of us.

jerry

PS–no it wouldn’t because those in the video don’t have the courage to preach the unconditional love of God.

146   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 7th, 2009 at 3:58 pm

How many of them do I have to know personally before I can say? I’ve been around quite a few of these operations.

I’m not saying that everyone involved is operating out of bad motives, but they seems to attract those who do. I remember coming back after these sorts of trips with people asking questions along the lines of “how many people did you talk to” as if we were hunting ducks or something…

147   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 3:59 pm

#143–You are right. We didn’t see the ‘whole day.’ We saw the part that made those involved seem better than they actually are. Again, self-serving blather.

148   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 4:00 pm

Yep, just checked… I am saved into the Life of Christ and out of the legalism of Fancy Pants… been there, done that… drank the kool aid but Jesus brought me back to New Life in Him…

iggy

149   Mr. Fancy Pants    
April 7th, 2009 at 4:00 pm

Jerry, read the writings of John Wesley, George Whitfield, Charles Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, David Brainard, the Apostle Paul, Peter, John the Baptist, oh and Jesus Himself and tell me they didn’t preach the Gospel. Repentance and remission of sins will be preached in My name Jesus said. Paris Reidhead said one time which I think if you will let this word’s hit you it will make sense.

He said and I am paraphrasing, in America every one knows how to be saved, but they don’t know what they are being saved from. If I was in a town for a while I would do nothing but preach on the holiness of God, God’s justice, God’s law and when people would come up and ask me what must I do to be saved, I would whisper in their ears John 3:16

150   Mr. Fancy Pants    
April 7th, 2009 at 4:03 pm

so the Bible that says wine is a mocker and strong drink makes a man rage and he that partakes of it is a fool, is legalism? Without holiness no man will see the Lord

151   Jesse    
April 7th, 2009 at 4:04 pm

Phil #146,
I agree with your duck hunting metaphor, too many evangelists and churches treat salvation like a contest. I’m not disputing your experiences, I just try not to make assumptions about people I don’t know.

Jerry #147
Better than they actually are? Who are you to be so self righteous? Do you know those guys? If you want to debate methodology that’s fine, but you are making huge assumptions about people you don’t know personally.

152   Bo Diaz    
April 7th, 2009 at 4:05 pm

Then nothing but the whisper would differ from the response of Jewish rabbi, or a Islamic Imam.

Congrats Mr Fancy Pants you’re an evangelist for a generic monotheistic god, and a whisperer of the gospel.

153   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 4:05 pm

MFP,

Why do I need to read a bunch of dead guys like Spurgeon, Wesley, and Edwards? Where does the Bible say that they got it right all the time? I think you are confusing me with someone else because I’m not making a case against the Gospel. I’m making a case against legalistic hate spewing and judgmental condemnation. Read the Gospel.

“Did no one condemn you? Then neither do I.” Jesus in John’s Gospel.

If Jesus doesn’t condemn, what right do any of us have to? Get over it. Your legalism and demands for human activity cannot trump the grace of God in the cross of Christ.

154   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 7th, 2009 at 4:05 pm

so the Bible that says wine is a mocker and strong drink makes a man rage and he that partakes of it is a fool, is legalism? Without holiness no man will see the Lord

You probably think that Jesus turned the water into non-alcoholic wine (I’ve actually had people try to convince me of this…)

155   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 4:07 pm

#149 – None of the men, except Jesus, you mentioned preached the true gospel. None. There are only three alive today that preach the true gsopel:

Me, my oldest son, and a woman from Kansas.

156   Jesse    
April 7th, 2009 at 4:07 pm

Jerry #153
You left out the part where Jesus said “Go and sin no more.” Just sayin.

157   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 4:07 pm

Better than they actually are? Who are you to be so self righteous? Do you know those guys? If you want to debate methodology that’s fine, but you are making huge assumptions about people you don’t know personally.

No, actually the video demonstrates to me exactly who they are. I said the video shows. If they wanted to appear differently, then they should have cut and pasted other parts of their day long video. Seriously, riding around singing 200 year old songs? How does that make one righteous? Holy? Faithful? Or a minister of the Gospel? Or saved?

I’m commenting on the contents of the video. I learned quite a bit by watching it.

158   Jose    
April 7th, 2009 at 4:08 pm

Jerry,
I see your point and it does bother me when someone bashes the unrepented with only judgement and wrath and forget the love of christ. But they are a only a few. I also get cautious of people posting their “street preaching” because it show’s me ” look what I am doing!”. The glory is to God and him alone. I dont judge them and in fact i pray that God uses them some how, because it does takes courage.

But i know that it works and it may bother 99% of them, but when that 1% repents and turn their life around its a victory.

159   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 4:09 pm

156–no I didn’t leave it out at all. But I do note that Jesus said that to her after he refused to condemn her and not before. The command not to sin is given to those who are forgiven by grace, not to those who have never tasted.

160   Mr. Fancy Pants    
April 7th, 2009 at 4:09 pm

If Jesus doesn’t condemn, what right do any of us have to? Get over it. Your legalism and demands for human activity cannot trump the grace of God in the cross of Christ.

They are condemned already John 3:18, You are missing the point of the adulterer about to be stoned, she was already at the feet of Jesus and had realized her sinfulness so she was ready for grace.

161   Bo Diaz    
April 7th, 2009 at 4:09 pm

Mr Fancy Pants,
You are misrepresenting scripture. What scripture says is:

Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler;
whoever is led astray by them is not wise.

Not whoever partakes in them is a fool. Its the difference between the use and abuse of one of God’s gifts.

Else, scripture is contradicting itself when it is commanded:

Give beer to those who are perishing, wine to those who are in anguish;

Not to mention the million other scriptural references to the positive use of alcohol.

162   Jesse    
April 7th, 2009 at 4:10 pm

Jerry #157
Did they ever claim to be righteous because of their works? I must have missed that part. If they did, I’d be on your side, but I haven’t seen that claim. We are made righteous through the death of Jesus on the cross, that’s it.

163   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 4:11 pm

158–And I praise God when he does the work of drawing someone unto Christ with his wooing and love and compassion and mercy.

Again, you and I don’t disagree on message, just method. As the old saying goes, you can draw more flies with honey than vinegar.

Peace.

164   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 4:12 pm

160:

They are condemned already John 3:18, You are missing the point of the adulterer about to be stoned, she was already at the feet of Jesus and had realized her sinfulness so she was ready for grace.

Can you show me where in that context that it says the woman specifically repented of anything? As I read it, the text says: “They brought her…”; that is, against her will.

165   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 7th, 2009 at 4:13 pm

You left out the part where Jesus said “Go and sin no more.” Just sayin.

The “go and sin no more” isn’t said like a scalding parent to a child. It’s a charge of freedom. Jesus is telling the woman she is free! It’s like telling a prisoner who is released, “go and live your life, and don’t enter your life of crime again!”

Sin isn’t primarily an offense against God – it doesn’t do Him harm. It harms us. It is living below what God has for us. It makes us something less than human.

166   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 4:14 pm

162–Uh, not sure what you are getting at. They showed the parts of the video that they wanted to show. They showed the parts that portray themselves in a certain light. They don’t have to saw anything. Their actions speak volumes.

167   Mr. Fancy Pants    
April 7th, 2009 at 4:15 pm

Jerry if it isn’t Biblical, your method, are you really winning them to Christ? I thought I was saved when I was 16, I was told say this prayer and your in. I didnt see the depth of my sin, I wanted to use God as a ticket to get out of hell, and I was a false convert. I asked Jesus into my heart a thousand times. Preached a sugar Gospel that is sweet to the taste but bitter to the soul. and LACKED REPENTANCE. Let every man who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity

168   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 7th, 2009 at 4:16 pm

They are condemned already John 3:18, You are missing the point of the adulterer about to be stoned, she was already at the feet of Jesus and had realized her sinfulness so she was ready for grace.

Are you serious? She was dragged there by men who were accusing her! Nevermind the fact the it takes two to commit adultery, and the law demands both parties face the penalty.

This story shows two things. First it shows the grace and love of the Father. Secondly it shows how the religious system doesn’t understand it. Those who accuse others of sin are often projecting their own sinfulness onto the people they are accusing.

169   Bo Diaz    
April 7th, 2009 at 4:17 pm

Did he just quote the verse right after “didn’t come into the world to condemn the world” and say that Jesus condemned the world?

170   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 4:17 pm

If we say we are having no sin we lie and the truth is not in us.

I want everyone to know I am having sin. :cool:

171   Jesse    
April 7th, 2009 at 4:17 pm

Jerry #166
Your posts speak volumes as well.

172   Mr. Fancy Pants    
April 7th, 2009 at 4:19 pm

Hey Bo did I say Jesus condemned the world? They are condemned because of their sins!

173   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 4:19 pm

and thus repentance becomes a works in order to be saved…

And he can’t see how this negate his earlier statements…

iggy

174   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 4:20 pm

MFP,

I have no idea what you are talking about in 167. This has nothing to do with ‘my’ methods. I’m not the subject of this post so your thoughts are lost on me now. To be sure, I have never asked anyone to ‘pray the sinners prayer’ because Scripture doesn’t say anything about it. Doesn’t mean it is wrong or bad. Just means I don’t think it is prescribed.

Still, why would a person repent just because Bull Horn Guy says ‘repent’? Repent of what? Repent for whom? Ah, that’s the point isn’t? Why should I repent when the message is simply ‘get out of jail when you do?’ Instead, calling people to repent because of the work of Christ and because they are forgiven, and because God is gracious and because God loves them and because God desires them to be set free…now, there’s a message.

But repenting just because someone says so? Eh. Meaningless.

175   Mr. Fancy Pants    
April 7th, 2009 at 4:20 pm

Jesus said, Unless you repent YOU WILL PERISH.

176   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 4:22 pm

The woman “caught” in adultery had realized her sin and was “ready for grace”.

I love the exegetical license that can take any narrative and apply systematic theology to the heart of this woman. As soon as Jesus said, “Go and sin no more” that same woman went home and wrote a treatise on New Testament sanctifiction.

177   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 4:22 pm

171–why? because I speak about the grace of God? The love of God? Visit my blog and read my sermons and you will see that you have no idea of that which you so confidently speak.

178   Mr. Fancy Pants    
April 7th, 2009 at 4:23 pm

Jerry you just showed your card right there. And you my friend are preaching a false Gospel. they aren’t forgiving already. does God love everyone? Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated. Your Rob Bell heresies, you my friend are in deep trouble.

179   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 4:24 pm

Repent = change your mind

Meta (change) noia (mind)

Repent and believe.

Change your unbelief to faith by your God given free will and with the help of the Spirit of God. From unbelief to faith – REPENTANCE!

180   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 4:25 pm

175–and your point?

Who here has said he didn’t?

Again, we are talking about message. There’s more to the message than merely ‘repent’.

181   room2blog    http://room2blog.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 4:25 pm

@Jose:
Maybe it’s not about the method (PA + singing + preaching) but about the content behind the method.

Don’t get me wrong, I believe that God can make beautiful things out of completely wack fire&brimstone theology. As someone mentioned: people get saved after reading a Chick tract.
Personally I commend everyone who has the guts to go out and share and I am the last to be in a position to condemn anyone who witnesses. I often find it difficult to talk about my beliefs even with good friends and I feel no calling whatsoever to place myself at a street corner handing out tracts, so I’m probably a crappy evangelist.

What often strikes me when I notice “bullhorn”-evangelization is a severe focus on judgment and Gods grace becoming a mere way of getting “our butts out of hell”. I’m not saying judgment and the truth that God did indeed save our butts from hell shouldn’t be mentioned.
But hell is not what defines Gods grace, Gods grace is what defies hell. This is what bothers me about fire&brimstone evangelization. It makes Gods grace look cheap and weak.

This

a church I know went to Daytona Beach and provided their cars as free taxis for drunken partiers. As they rode, they asked them where they were from, they shared about the ages of their own children, and they handed them some literature as they left and said they would pray for them.

is more like the grace I have found in God.

182   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 4:26 pm

And you Mr. Fancy Pants are in deep trouble since you are post modern. Any committed believer would reject those “fancy” pants as worldly and put on the pants of humility. :cool:

You are wearing false pants.

183   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 7th, 2009 at 4:27 pm

Jerry you just showed your card right there. And you my friend are preaching a false Gospel. they aren’t forgiving already. does God love everyone? Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated. Your Rob Bell heresies, you my friend are in deep trouble.

So God’s love for us is dependent upon our repentance? That, my friend, is a load of unadulterated crap from the pits of hell.

184   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 4:27 pm

we should teach repentance AND forgiveness, the wrath of God AND the love of God. Jesus taught both, so should we.

From the Jesus’ words in the Gospels:
Wrath: 4 times (3 in reference to coming judgment against Jerusalem), 1 time in reference to those who reject the Son.
Love: 65+ times (after removing his descriptions of Pharisees ‘loving’ money, power, etc.)
Repent: 19 times
Forgive: 45+ times
The Kingdom of Heaven/God: 100+ times

So yes, he talked about these things, but it seems to me that folks like those in the video (and at the ADM sites) are all jacked up and revved about wrath and repentance with lip-service (at best) toward love and forgiveness – and almost nothing about the kingdom….

185   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 4:28 pm

Phil – I believe the crap from hell IS adulterated. :lol:

186   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 4:29 pm

MFP,

When Jesus stated repent or perish it was to show that all men are equal in their sin and needed to come to Messiah… it was not that they “repented to be saved” the repentance was that of turning from depending on their own works or righteousness and turn to the Messiah and depend on God through Him. It was a matter of identity…

So to take the statement of Jesus as you have twists it to mean that we must do a “work” called ” repentance” which is grossly miss-defined to be saved… so we save ourselves by confessing our sins?

That is not what the bible teaches about repentance at all…

iggy

187   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 7th, 2009 at 4:29 pm

So yes, he talked about these things, but it seems to me that folks like those in the video (and at the ADM sites) are all jacked up and revved about wrath and repentance with lip-service (at best) toward love and forgiveness – and almost nothing about the kingdom….

It’s kind of amazing isn’t it? After almost 2000 years, the coming of the Kingdom of God still remains hidden to those blinded by their own religion…

188   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 4:30 pm

178–??What??

Jerry you just showed your card right there. And you my friend are preaching a false Gospel. they aren’t forgiving already. does God love everyone? Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated. Your Rob Bell heresies, you my friend are in deep trouble.

Again, I’ll point you to my blog: Life Under the Blue Sky. You have no idea of what you speak.

Are you saying that we are not forgiven until we have repented? Well, that sounds very gnostic of you, secret knowledge. So, what is the trick to being forgiven?

16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

189   Mr. Fancy Pants    
April 7th, 2009 at 4:30 pm

Psalm 11:5 5 The LORD examines the righteous,
but the wicked and those who love violence
His soul hates.

190   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 4:32 pm

What is your real name Mr. Fancy Pants? I thought we did not allow myterious commenters who are afriad of being uncovered. Are you blogging from prison?

191   Mr. Fancy Pants    
April 7th, 2009 at 4:32 pm

You can’t pick and choose the Scriptures you like and then throw away the ones you don’t.

192   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 4:35 pm

It’s been a while since the salvation card has been played here. It’s refreshing.

Larry: Help, Moe, help, I can’t see!

Moe: What’s the matter, kid??

Larry: I got my eyes closed.

(Moe slaps Larry on the head to cure him of his spiritual blindness)

:lol: :lol:

193   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 4:35 pm

MFP:so the Bible that says wine is a mocker and strong drink makes a man rage and he that partakes of it is a fool, is legalism?

Legalism occurs when we take our own personal preferences and convictions and elevate them to cross-cultural commands or prohibitions. (See here for a good dissection of this).

In this particular case, you’ve taken one scripture (in a rather out of context manner, but that’s another item for another time) and made it a cross-cultural prohibition against alcohol, when the bolus of biblical teaching does not support your supposition. (Here’s one article where we discussed this in more depth).

194   Joe    http://joemartino.name
April 7th, 2009 at 4:35 pm

Why are we engaging someone who cals himself “Mr. Fancy Pants”?

195   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 4:36 pm

“You can’t pick and choose the Scriptures you like and then throw away the ones you don’t.”

I learned that from John Calvin.

196   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 4:36 pm

You can’t pick and choose the Scriptures you like and then throw away the ones you don’t.

So true… so why are you doing that?

iggy

197   Mr. Fancy Pants    
April 7th, 2009 at 4:37 pm

This is what im going to leave you with. Read the entire book of 1 John and see if your life lines up with it and see if you are a genuine Christian. Rob Bell preaches heresy, The Shack is heresy and this room is full of heresy.

198   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 4:37 pm

196–!!

199   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 4:38 pm

MFP is bringing up Bell, The Shack–oh, must be another Pastorboy persona.

200   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 4:39 pm

Why are we engaging someone who cals himself “Mr. Fancy Pants”?

I was wondering that myself! :lol: hard to take anyone serious with that name…

I was wondering if it was MC Hammer.. but I think he has a better understanding of Grace… but I keep having a picture of this person dancing around in parachute pants reading the bible to see how he can twist verses out of context next to mess with us.

iggy

201   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 4:39 pm

“Why are we engaging someone who cals himself “Mr. Fancy Pants”?”

Joe – as you can see, right after he proclaimed everyone unsaved, I entered my “humorous mocking” mode. I just cannot muster up a serious conversation with someone so arrogant and goofy!

Or goofagant.

202   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 7th, 2009 at 4:39 pm

You can’t pick and choose the Scriptures you like and then throw away the ones you don’t.

I heard a great quote the other day… Oddly enough, it was on a show on the History Channel, I think.

“The Bible is like a person – If you torture it long enough, you can make it say pretty much whatever you want it to”.

If you are trying to argue that God still hates people despite the work of Christ on the cross, you are going against the spirit of the Gospel and the witness of the Church. Christ died for us while we were sinners. There is nothing we can do to earn His love.

It’s scandalous. It always has been and always will. It’s been messing with religious folks for a long time now.

203   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 4:39 pm

This is what im going to leave you with. Read the entire book of 1 John and see if your life lines up with it and see if you are a genuine Christian. Rob Bell preaches heresy, The Shack is heresy and this room is full of heresy.

Don’t worry, there will be less when you leave…

iggy

204   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 4:41 pm

“Read the entire book of 1 John and see if your life lines up with it and see if you are a genuine Christian.”

That book was added later.

205   Mr. Fancy Pants    
April 7th, 2009 at 4:42 pm

So God changes? The same God of the old testament is the same God of the new testament. Romans 9 it talks about God hating Esau before he did anything good or bad.

206   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 4:42 pm

203–Oh, that’s priceless.

207   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 4:43 pm

These guys are a joke… they come judge and condemn cast stones then self righteously stomp off to brag about how they told us so…

Sad really… how they miss the basics… I mean… they claim they eat meat… but really do not even seem to be able to digest milk… yet love to chew on other believers…

iggy

208   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 4:43 pm

205–Yes, and Esau seems to have prospered well in the OT too doesn’t he? SO much for being hated.

209   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 4:45 pm

“Romans 9 it talks about God hating Esau before he did anything good or bad.”

Wrong. Esau was pinching his brother Jacob in the womb.

210   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 4:46 pm

Romans 9 is about God’s grace… not his hatred… and that those who were originally vessels of mercy (the Jews) became vessels of wrath so the the vessels of wrath (the Gentiles) now can become vessels of mercy…

One needs to read chapters 8, 9 and 10 together to get all that Paul is stating about Jacob and Esau

Calvinism has this so distorted…

iggy

211   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 4:48 pm

Jesse: You left out the part where Jesus said “Go and sin no more.” Just sayin.

He also forgot the part where Jesus kept checking up with her to make sure that she went and sinned no more, and condemned her when she did not live up to this…

Jose:But i know that it works and it may bother 99% of them, but when that 1% repents and turn their life around its a victory.

Because the ends always justify the means. Go team! Let’s be Jerks for Jesus!

I thought I was saved when I was 16, I was told say this prayer and your in. I didnt see the depth of my sin, I wanted to use God as a ticket to get out of hell, and I was a false convert.

Or you were just an immature Christian. That doesn’t make you a ‘false convert’, just a baby. I don’t see Jesus (or Paul) adding a requirement – “you must see the depth of your sin”…

Bo: Did he just quote the verse right after “didn’t come into the world to condemn the world” and say that Jesus condemned the world?

Yes – but the Bible is just a collection of sayings that dropped out of the sky. There is no need to quote it in context.

MFP: Jerry you just showed your card right there. And you my friend are preaching a false Gospel. they aren’t forgiving already. does God love everyone? Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated. Your Rob Bell heresies, you my friend are in deep trouble.

Ooohhh – you’re in trouble now, Jerry! Don’t you know they can’t be saved until they get the hell scared out of them first? That’s the only “true” conversion… Forget all that “love” stuff, it’s hell, wrath, sin and damnation that they have to fully comprehend before they can be saved. We’ve got their fire insurance policy, and they need to understand the fine print before they can join the viral marketing campaign and wait around to go to a better place.

212   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 7th, 2009 at 4:51 pm

God hated Esau the way I hate the Cleveland Browns… :-)

213   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 4:51 pm

What is your real name Mr. Fancy Pants? I thought we did not allow myterious commenters who are afriad of being uncovered. Are you blogging from prison?

Rick – he has a valid email address and a unique IP we’ve not seen before. Yes, it would be nice if he didn’t hide behind a pseudonym, but this is his first day here…

214   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 4:52 pm

It’s times like these when I feel so warm and fuzzy and …elected!

215   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 4:53 pm

“God hated Esau the way I hate the Cleveland Browns… ”

Yea, but they’ve done works worthy of your hatred! Especially when they refuse to make Brady Quinn the starter.

216   room2blog    http://room2blog.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 5:00 pm

Romans 9 is about God’s grace… not his hatred… and that those who were originally vessels of mercy (the Jews) became vessels of wrath so the the vessels of wrath (the Gentiles) now can become vessels of mercy…

Could somebody here at CRN.info do a post about that or suggest a good link? I’m very intrigued by the notion that Romans actually is a text that hints towards a Christian universalism (clarification for the haters: meaning everybody can be saved, not everybody is saved) in the context of God extending his grace to the heathens through Christ instead of reading Romans as a text that teaches predestination and election.

217   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 5:11 pm

Room2blog,

I can only say that I realized that this was what Romans 9 was about after I was reading and listening to a lot of NT Wright. I can’t recall if he states it, but after I read some of his papers on Paul, I read through the chapters and it was clear as a bell to me what Paul was stating and doing.

As far as Universal Atonement, there is a good article here The article goes into the difference between universalism and universal atonement…

Personally I do not like the term as atonement is what was given in the OT and is a “covering” of sins… in Hebrews we read that Jesus did not just cover our sins, but took them away once for all… so Jesus did not “cover” our sins in the same sense of bulls and goats… but was better than the OT sacrifice…

I do not know what to call myself other that UA but I would prefer Universal Propitiation… :wink:

iggy

218   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 7th, 2009 at 5:12 pm

There’s a lot of good commentaries on Romans. Ben Witherington III has an excellent one, and N.T. Wright is coming out with one in the next month or so. These tend to be on the academic side, though. This piece by Wright explains his general take (again, it’s a bit dense, as it is Wright). His main thesis is this, though:

Paul’s Christian theological reflection begins, I suggest, from within exactly this matrix of thought, with the realization that what the creator/covenant god was supposed
to do for Israel at the end of history, this god had done for Jesus in the middle of history.
Jesus as an individual, instead of Israel as a whole, had been vindicated, raised from the
dead, after suffering at the hands of the pagans; and this had happened in the middle of ongoing “exilic” history, not at its end. This by itself would have been enough, I think, to propel a Jewish thinker to the conclusion that Jesus had somehow borne Israel’s destiny by himself, was somehow its representative. When we add to this the early Christian belief in Jesus’ messiahship, and Paul’s own exposition of this theme, there is every reason to suppose that Paul made exactly this connection, and indeed made it central to his whole theology. The creator/covenant god has brought his covenant purpose for Israel to fruition in Israel’s representative, the Messiah, Jesus.6 The task I see before us now is to show how the actual argument of Romans, the “poetic sequence” of the letter, relates to this underlying “narrative sequence,” that is, the theological story of the creator’s dealings with Israel and the world, now retold so as to focus on Christ and the Spirit.

219   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 7th, 2009 at 5:17 pm

Phil,

I think that is the NT Wright paper that I was talking about… great minds think alike… :lol:

iggy

220   room2blog    http://room2blog.wordpress.com
April 7th, 2009 at 5:44 pm

Thanks for the links, I’ll dive right into NT Wright tomorrow, I don’t fear academic writing. Has anyone read Karl Barth’s commentary? German conservative theologians just dig him so I’m always toying with the idea of reading his Romans commentary some day. Too bad I actually should take more time for my mathematics studies, too.

221   Jose    
April 7th, 2009 at 6:25 pm

room2blog: #181
I agree that some “bullhorns” do focus too much or all the time in fire and brimstone and forget the grace and love of our christ. But we are not all like the bullhorn guy. From what you see in the video it seems only fire and no grace. I just dont like that we all “bullhorns” are place in the same crazy category. Our main focus is christ and hes love and grace and yes we do also speak of the consequences of sin.

like i said methods differ, we hope that the end result of the same.

222   M.G.    
April 7th, 2009 at 10:02 pm

As long as both alcohol and N.T. Wright have entered the conversation, I’ll paraphrase a Wright quote that I like:

Saying that alcohol is wrong because of drunkenness is like saying marital sex is wrong because you might have an affair.

The reality is that 99.9% of human over the past 6,000 years or so have partaken in alcohol. To argue that abstaining from alcohol is a a sign of Christian maturity is pretty silly (and more attuned to Islam than anything else.)

223   Paula    
April 8th, 2009 at 8:58 am

sorry, I wouldn’t be able to enjoy my vacation with the inflatable penis hanging around. (no pun intended) and the echo of the silly CRN(mis)info whine echoing in my head.

What’s that line the seeker sensitive people use? oh yeah “I like the way they’re doing it better than the way you’re not doing it.”

224   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
April 8th, 2009 at 9:12 am

Paula,
You shouldn’t call PB’s site (http://crninfo.wordpress.com/)
“the silly CRN(mis)info whine.”

That’s just not nice.

225   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 8th, 2009 at 9:35 am

Paula,

First it was Richard Abanes’ testicles and now you are carrying around an inflatable penis?

What is this perverted fascination with male genitalia?

226   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 8th, 2009 at 9:40 am

Let’s keep the conversation, um, above the belt, now folks…

227   Paula    
April 8th, 2009 at 9:41 am

Nathanael Says:
April 7th, 2009 at 9:25 am
The rest of you can hate.
Is that seriously what you think? That people here hate you?
That makes me sad.

Isn’t that what you all think of Ken and Ingrid? Man, the double standards in this entire thread are suffocating. wow.

228   Paula    
April 8th, 2009 at 9:43 am

Phil, I was just commenting on the video. I’m trying to figure out how someone dressed as a phallus could be a Christian enjoying his beer on the beach, during spring break.

‘”debauchery is not Christian?” at least that’s the impression I get from this video.’ Yeah, go figure.

229   Paula    
April 8th, 2009 at 9:44 am

Nate, I never claimed to be nice to those who mock the truth.

230   Paula    
April 8th, 2009 at 9:45 am

However, nate, you all claim to be nicer than the rest of us, and still use far more inflammatory tactics than those at whom you freely cast stones.

Again with the double standards… astounding.

231   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 8th, 2009 at 9:48 am

Nate, I never claimed to be nice to those who mock the truth.

Well at least you’re honest…

Was Jesus just joking when He said this?

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

(which by the way pretty much takes away any doubt about whether or not God actually hates people as was mentioned earlier in the thread)

232   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
April 8th, 2009 at 9:59 am

Isn’t that what you all think of Ken and Ingrid?

The writers here and most of the commenters do not hate Ingrid or Ken.
That is clear to any objective observer.

And my “that’s not nice” comment was intended to be funny since I provided pastorboy’s link.

233   Bo Diaz    
April 8th, 2009 at 10:10 am

However, nate, you all claim to be nicer than the rest of us, and still use far more inflammatory tactics than those at whom you freely cast stones.

Really? Where has Nathaniel used tactics more inflammatory than claiming those who objected to Ingrid’s “painted whore of sodom” characterization of a 15 year old girl actually were lusting after that same 15 year old girl?

Actual examples please.

234   nc    
April 8th, 2009 at 10:13 am

Yes, Paula. Praise you as you grow in gracelessness and self-importance to the glory of yourself.

You’re a joke.

But maybe you’re not just a total tool…you might also be a tool of the Holy Spirit sent to add another woman’s name to the list of people that are making me re-think my egalitarianism.

Would to God you loved your “truth” so much you put a covering on your head and your mouth.

So much for your calling to learn in all quietness and to inquire of your husband. (assuming you have one.)

Nobody here said they were more loving to high-minded self-worshippers posing as spiritual authority–that would be you

They’ve said they were probably more loving to people who don’t know Jesus.

Feel free to live into your love of your “truth” and be woman enough to handle it when the measure you’ve measured with gets applied to you.

That’s in the infallible, inspired and inerrant Bible, from the mouth of your Sovereign Lord.

If you’re so upset about the truth…Read the pertinent passages in Timothy and Titus about your “God-ordained role”, look in a mirror, step away from the computer, and go do a home ec. project, make playdough, or whatever it is you do.

Seriously. You’re a joke. You don’t lov the truth.

Then again, since Ingrid is your model, I pray for everyone around you…not just the men.

Have a nice day.

235   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
April 8th, 2009 at 10:26 am

You guys and your cheap shots.

I updated my article to demonstrate some more of the actual preaching, which also demonstrates clearly the lies of Joe.

I hope he will repent, if not, I still forgive Him.

236   rabanes    http://abanes.com
April 8th, 2009 at 10:51 am

LoL. Paula would be the one to stare at the you-know-what in the video. I had to watch it again to see what she was talking about. ROFL.

Iggy, you’re right, first testicles, now this? Goodness. I’m almost afraid to do a search on any of her other posts………

RA

237   nc    
April 8th, 2009 at 10:55 am

sweet heavens!

I just re-watched the vid. You really do have to be looking for it…

Get out of the gutter, Paula! Repent!

238   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 8th, 2009 at 11:23 am

Paula,

no one here stated “penis man” was a christian… Pastorboy stated that many on the beach claimed they were Christians… so you are way out in left field…

So if you think PM was a christian, then take it up with PB… OK?

iggy

239   Joe    http://www.joemartino.name
April 8th, 2009 at 11:32 am

RE: #235
@John,
There isn’t a lie in that post. Ken or someone had an excellent article up at ??N today about satire. I’m sorry you feel you were misrepresented. As I have said, the article was not intended to provide a blow by blow of what you do. As I have also said, I think what you are doing is wrong.
John, you need help with your anger issues. Seek some. There are no lies in that post, only an example of how misguided you are.
I’ll not bother with your silly “which God” comment. You’re track record speaks for itself.

240   nc    
April 8th, 2009 at 11:41 am

PB,

you’re complaining about cheap shots?

You’ve gotta be joking, right?

Come down off the cross, PB. We need the wood.

241   room2blog    http://room2blog.wordpress.com
April 8th, 2009 at 11:54 am

Haha, you guys didn’t notice penis boy in the background? He is pretty obvious and I say him immediately and then I thought… well, it’s spring break. But maybe I’m twisted.

242   Jim    http://www.fleebabylon.com
April 8th, 2009 at 12:40 pm

I pray some of the many false converts, I mean “chrsitians”, here actually get saved. It is the preaching of the Gospel that is so offensive to you.

http://www.fleebabylon.com

243   Joe    http://joemartino.name
April 8th, 2009 at 12:59 pm

Jim,
Sure, say it enough and it must be true. Does it help you feel better to be able to say what I find offensive. I think it’s the true preaching of the gospel that you find offensive. You would rather compile a sanctimonious webpage where you talk about “them” and how “they” aren’t fleeing from babylon. You’d rather just throw out invectives and proclaim that which you know nothing of.
Of course, I know all of this as much as you know what offends me and what doesn’t.

~Gee, this ADM/ODM thing isn’t all that hard.

244   Joe    http://joemartino.name
April 8th, 2009 at 1:00 pm

BTW Jim,
Can you tell me about my life? Tell me about my conversion? Tell me about what I am passionate about? Can you tell me about my relationship with God?
I’ll wait.

245   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 8th, 2009 at 1:24 pm

Sure, say it enough and it must be true. Does it help you feel better to be able to say what I find offensive. I think it’s the true preaching of the gospel that you find offensive. You would rather compile a sanctimonious webpage where you talk about “them” and how “they” aren’t fleeing from babylon. You’d rather just throw out invectives and proclaim that which you know nothing of.
Of course, I know all of this as much as you know what offends me and what doesn’t.

Well, the other commenter in this thread was offended by the suggestion that God loves everyone. So you probably aren’t too far off here.

Throughout all of these “Gospel” presentations I’ve seen on Youtube, I’ve never heard one of the speakers actually say that God loved the people they were yelling at. I’ve heard them told numerous times they were vile sinners (which I imagine many of the people hearing already suspect), but no one telling them Jesus loves them passionately and is pursuing them. I honestly wonder why that is.

246   nc    
April 8th, 2009 at 2:39 pm

Yeah, Jim.

You got us.

We just hate the Gospel.

Have a nice day affirmed in your own righteousness.

247   nc    
April 8th, 2009 at 2:41 pm

Jim’s website has this at the bottom:
If you have been convicted, encouraged, confused, or angered by the content of this website feel free to email me ~ repent_trust@yahoo.com

He forgot “eye rolling”…I wonder if that even requires an email?

oy.

248   nc    
April 8th, 2009 at 2:43 pm

Oh, just in case you didn’t know, Jim…there’s already a lurker here that got the job of looking into people’s hearts.

Sorry. You’ll have to wait your turn. It’s gonna be a while.

249   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 8th, 2009 at 3:00 pm

I love how there’s a whole sub-genre of watchblogs whose main purpose is to determine who is and who isn’t a Christian…

I think I’m going to start one that will just be a page – “If you are reading this, you are a sinner”.

250   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 8th, 2009 at 5:44 pm

I think I’m going to start one that will just be a page – “If you are reading this, you are a sinner”.

But then you will have to have a list of non-sinner “sinners” that are the “worst of sinners” (as PB calls himself) that are more worthy of God’s grace than other sinners as they meet specific doctrinal specifications… like:

1. Preacher wears suit not jeans.
2. Preacher uses wooden pulpit (not Plexiglases)
3. Proper hymns are sung
4. Music is performed by professional classically trained musicians
5. No mention of sex from church or congregation
6. No chairs, just pews (even in home churches)
7. No clowns found in this church
8. Approved reading list
a. All Luther’s writings (But carefully edited)
b. All Calvin’s writings
c. All John MacArthur books
9. List of books to be burned (Bell, McLaren, NT Wright Boyd and the other usual suspects)
10. List of approved websites
11. A sanitized page on Walter Martin (a re-write of history that makes WM graceless and mean)
12. A new approved historical re-write of the church that starts with Jesus, jumps over 1500 years and begins with the only true church of the Great Reformers)
13. A historical list of emerging mystics of the 1 – 1500ad that were all bad.
14. A re-write on how the bible came to be. (dropped from the sky onto GUtenberg’s press)
15. The ODM approved view of Jesus (that would be fun!)
16. A list of approved swear words.
17. A list on how much a whore (fill in the blank) is.
18. How the world is in the end times and how the emerging church is causing it.
19. How only the ODM’s hold all truth
20. A page explaining why God is too weak to protect Himself from others.
21. A page on how truth does not protect us, but why we must protect truth for God.
22. A page one foreknowledge and predestination.
23. A page on the Sovernity of God and how He is in Control (as weak as He is)
24. A page on approved evangelists.
a. A page on approved evangelistic styles.
b. A page that one can order the tools of evangelism (like a bullhorn or small PA system)
c. A book on witty insults and annoying phrases to whip any crowd into a revival or hate.
25. Approve beach attire
26. Approved alcholic drinks
27. Approved Holywood performance clothing
28. Approved movies (only movies with Kirk Cameron in them.)

I am sure there are much more we would have to have…
But this would be a good start at least…

251   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 8th, 2009 at 5:48 pm

Oh…

29. How this Nation is a Christian nation page.
30. How this Nation is under the judgemetn of God page.
31. How this is all liberals and emergents fault.
32. Approved list of conservative talk hosts
33. approved list of who to vote for.

252   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 8th, 2009 at 5:53 pm

If you’re reading this you are a sinner…and a moron. :)

253   Rob    
April 8th, 2009 at 6:05 pm

This is a perfect example why the good old USA allows abortion same sex marriage . The so called Christians are cowards they sit there and party with the world then when some biblical Christians comes they get angry and yell why are you ruining my party . Time and time i have to open my bible and show so call Christians we are not to get drunk and party . Romans 13:11.12The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of lightLet us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy.This is the biggest problem with these cultural christians at best they love the things of the world and hate the God of the bible . 1 John 2-15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.Open your bible for a change and read it . 2 timothy 3-16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,. This is our standard not your emergent pastor the word of God is what we judge all things . John 7-24 judge righteously according to the word of God. To sit on the beach and get drunk and criticize christians who loved the lost to tell them the truth . You need to examine yourself in the faith . 1 john 1-6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
Paul would go to the market and preach John the baptist would preach repent or perish. God is not some santa clause in heaven that winks at sin . That is the God most false converts make up in there mind God is Holy and just . Hebrews 10-31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.Psa 7-11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.
It is sad thing to read this post There where people who died at spring break from alcohol. There where so called christians there taking people to bars back and forths telling them Jesus loves them . There was another so called Christian walking up and down the beach saying free hugs woman there in there bath suits drunk i am sure he really was doing it for the Lord . The biblical message was always repent or you shall perish
Jesus began his ministry preaching, “Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Mat. 4:17)Jesus said, ‘Unless YOU repent, YOU will all likewise PERISH.” Luke 13:3 …
I thank God for the brother who came out to preach the gospel to the lost at spring break . Just one coming to the lord is priceless. It broke my heart to come from and area where they are not to many christians and i seen alot of so called Christian partying drinking in the name of Jesus . JESUS died on the cross now i have a license to sin . I remebered the bible verse when Jesus said in Rev 3-16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. I pray they repent it is going to be a terrible day going before the God of the universe . JOB 27-8 For what is the hope of the hypocrite, Though he may gain much, If God takes away his life?
Psa 94:16 Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? [or] who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?

254   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 8th, 2009 at 7:15 pm

Time and time i have to open my bible and show so call Christians we are not to get drunk and party.

Well, I agree we aren’t to get drunk, but I don’t agree that we aren’t supposed to party. We should party better than the pagans, actually…

I don’t know how Joe questioning someone using a portable sound system on a public beach as an evangelistic method equates to condoning debauchery and fornication, so most of your comment seems to be a non sequitor.

The fact is that it’s not our condemnation of sin that leads people to repentance. We cannot convince a sinner of his sinfulness. Only the Holy Spirit can.

It is sad thing to read this post There where people who died at spring break from alcohol. There where so called christians there taking people to bars back and forths telling them Jesus loves them . There was another so called Christian walking up and down the beach saying free hugs woman there in there bath suits drunk i am sure he really was doing it for the Lord .

And how does this relate, honestly? Does questioning the method in the video equal an endorsement of this?

The problem I have with trying to reach people at events like Spring Break is that it is like trying to convince a person to go on a diet while they are on their third plate at a buffet. The person has already made a bad decision many times, and they will face consequences, but the behavior they’re exhibiting is the symptom, not the disease. If people really care about getting involved in college students’ lives, there are many ways to do it. Most churches would love to have people from the congregation willing to pour into a campus ministry. Or people can simply become friends and mentors to students. These “evangelists” coming and yelling for a day to two means next to nothing.

The Gospel is more than words. Telling people they’re sinners isn’t the Gospel. Showing them that Jesus loves them and we love them no matter what is.

255   Joe    
April 8th, 2009 at 7:31 pm

#253. All I can say is WOW.

256   nc    
April 8th, 2009 at 7:39 pm

253.

Yeah. cuz that’s what we’re all for…getting drunk and partying (and all that that means).

You got us. We’re totally advocating that. not.

This has nothing to do with emergent, but thanks for flushing out your boogeyman. I’ll be getting my tinfoil hat, I heard the vibrations from the Hollywood cabal’s secret meeting might melt our brains even before they secretly implant metal objects in our intestines and then take over the world.

Who says we’re not examining ourselves in faith? Because we don’t agree with someone like you? YOU’RE the standard now by virtue of the assertion of your opinions? Lovely. I mean what would we have done without the self-appointed magisterium to tell us how to understand scripture? I mean, really, what. would. we. have. done.?

Yeah, we’re totally down with the Santa Claus “god”. We’ve all professed our committment to him. We love winking at sin.

Nobody knows who you’re ranting at, bro. But thanks for totally mischaracterizing the critique being raised here.

Go peddle crazy elsewhere, we’re all full up here from your friends.

257   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 8th, 2009 at 7:56 pm

Anyone who drinks fermented wine is unregenerate.

Anyone who calls others with demeaning and disrespectful names is filled with the Spirit.

There will be a test.

258   nc    
April 8th, 2009 at 7:58 pm

What if you do both?

;)

259   Joe    
April 8th, 2009 at 8:00 pm

NC,
It’s a good thing you and I never took a class together. We would have made people cry…

260   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 8th, 2009 at 8:00 pm

What if you do both?

Um…, you’re a Presbyterian? :-)

261   room2blog    http://room2blog.wordpress.com
April 8th, 2009 at 8:39 pm

@Rob: I know it’s bad style to get worked up about these things… But could you please cxlean up your punkuation, orthjography and suintax and add

some line breaks (if you found any errors that might be here merely for demonstrative purposes you may keep it). It makes it easier to follow your argument, to believe that you have thought about what you write and actually read the whole friggin’ thing!

262   nc    
April 8th, 2009 at 8:47 pm

259: HA! :)

260: You’ve got jokes…I’m Anglican…so we’re about the same on the “vice” side of things.

261: I just about had my ice cream come out my nose I laughed so hard.

Ya’ll got jokes.

263   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
April 8th, 2009 at 8:54 pm

Iggy–I could ‘convert’ to Anglicanism tomorrow. There’s a great deal about it that I think is beautiful. I use the BCP for funerals I conduct.

That probably has nothing to do with #260, but I just thought I would throw one more reason out there for others to conclude I am a heretic.

My best friend is an Anglican priest.

Sorry to go off topic. Back to your regularly scheduled argument. :)

264   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
April 8th, 2009 at 8:55 pm

sorry, meant nc.

265   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 8th, 2009 at 8:56 pm

253: When it is apparent that someone uses notepad and does not put breaks in… it shows they do not really care if it is read… it only shows they like to pre-write something that sounds all righteous and cut and paste it in various blogs to condemn those that they see fit to condemn…

As far as I read through it, it seems Rob needs to read the bible and pray more to gain more insight as to the Grace of God. To use John the Baptist as a template and to focus on one aspect of Jesus’ preaching… shows that Rob is rather immature in his understanding of the over all teaching of the Kingdom of God.

Yes, God is Holy… but He is compassionate… and I saw no compassion for the lost in what I read from Rob…

iggy

266   nc    
April 8th, 2009 at 9:06 pm

264:
come to the dark side, jerry. We’ve got a big tent.

267   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 8th, 2009 at 9:11 pm

“Denominations are the mark of the beast.”

Paul’s Second Letter to Antioch

268   Julie    http://www.loneprairie.net
April 8th, 2009 at 9:22 pm

The point is moot. You shouldn’t be on vacation. Who said you could rest for more than a day?

269   nc    
April 8th, 2009 at 9:32 pm

JULIE!!!

Seriously. THAT was hilarious!

270   Joe    
April 8th, 2009 at 9:37 pm

Julie, that is funny but if we didn’t go on vacation how would the word of the LORD get preached?

271   M.G.    
April 8th, 2009 at 11:41 pm

Over the past several days, and across a number of blogs, it seems as though the defenders of ODMs have not done a terrific job making their case.

The evidence is definitely anecdotal, but there seems to be a pattern of somewhat disordered, very angry, thinking present in the ODMs fiercest defenders.

And that, in the end, may very well be the greatest disservice of the ODMs.

272   Rob    
April 9th, 2009 at 11:41 am

rely to quote 254 phil Miller says

The problem I have with trying to reach people at events like Spring Break is that it is like trying to convince a person to go on a diet while they are on their third plate at a buffet. The person has already made a bad decision many times, and they will face consequences, but the behavior they’re exhibiting is the symptom, not the disease. If people really care about getting involved in college students’ lives, there are many ways to do it. Most churches would love to have people from the congregation willing to pour into a campus ministry. Or people can simply become friends and mentors to students. These “evangelists” coming and yelling for a day to two means next to nothing.

The Gospel is more than words. Telling people they’re sinners isn’t the Gospel. Showing them that Jesus loves them and we love them no matter what is.

As i read your post you Phil you limit God . When you say they committed the act there is no hope for them to repent . You used the food analogy which is limiting God . I know of 4 who repented and threw out there beer and went home . The problem with many like Phil is that they really think that there good works is going to save someone . . Phil i have spend many of years witness to the lost . The Gospel save people not you or me only the gospel can change someone only God can break that stoney heart and give them a heart of flesh for me to tell them Jesus loves you has a wonderful plan for there life would only appeal to my flesh it would not glorify God . Remeber all the apostle died brutal death accept for John. The bible says Romans 3-24 the law is our school master that bring us to Christ . If unsaved people dont know they are a sinner they will never cry out to saviour . The bible says the law is perfect for converting the soul did you hear that phil perfect .Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul; The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;. 1Ti 1:9,10But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully,knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
The problem i have Phil is you dont know the God of the bible and you dont know the Jesus of the bible like in my last post Jesus began his ministry preaching, “Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Mat. 4:17)Jesus said, ‘Unless YOU repent, YOU will all likewise PERISH.” Luke 13:3 Phil this Jesus you make up is a sloppy agape . The Jesus of the bible is love but he is also righteous and doesnt look the other way when we sin and wink at us . let me introduce you to the Jesus of the bible .

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

This is the Jesus of the bible Phil please read the scriptures .

Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth

.

Matthew 23:13-36: In this passage Jesus pronounced seven woes upon the Pharisees. In this discourse Jesus used such words as “hypocrites” “blind guides” “fools” “blind men” “white?washed tombs” “serpents” “brood of vipers” and said they were “full of hypocrisy and law?lessness.” He then ended by saying “how shall you escape the sentence of hell?”

When you quote something about Jesus please quote scripture to back it up Phil my opinion and your opinion means nothing but the word of God does. I used to be like you Phil tell people half the gospel that God is all loves and not full of wrath . I would Never tell them the whole gospel .God is love we can agree with that but the love comes with a price . Remebered isa 53:10 it please the lord to bruise Jesus on the cross . Because it would be either Jesus or us . Psa 7-11 God is angry at the wicked everyday Jesus spoke about hell more then he did about heaven he warn people about hell. As for as people preaching on the beach with a microphone praise the Lord people i hearing the biblical gospel .
phil if you are a christian you should rejoice when ever the gospel is preached . Lets see what the apostle Paul has to say about this Phl 1:18.But whether or not their motives are pure, the fact remains that the message about Christ is being preached, so I rejoice. And I will continue to rejoice. Very clear Phil rejoice when the gospel is preached . 2Cr 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. When someone truly understand that they are in great danger when they stand before the God of the universe through the preaching of the law they will cry out for a saviour . But if you tell them Jesus loves then and they are getting drunk having sex out side of marriage . Then all you will get is Jesus loves me and accepts me they way i live there will be no repentace . 2Cr 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. Phil please read the bible and get to know who the Jesus of the bible is before you go and tell people the good news this is my prayer for you .

273   nc    
April 9th, 2009 at 11:43 am

I’ll rejoice when Rob starts actually posting with readable paragraphs.

ick.

274   Neil    
April 9th, 2009 at 11:45 am

I’ll skip the discussion of the methodology and address an even more significant issue. And since I’m into this rather late, if I missed this being discussed in the 270+ comments just let me know…

At 4:27 someone interview two young women. The one meekly makes reference to having “…accepted him as my, like, Savior…” She has already said she deserves wrath.

To this the respondent says “…if you accept him, that’s not what the Bible says…” and then he says she’s still living in sin – as evidenced by her having a beer.

I find this absolutely tragic. It perpetuates the legalistic notion that God cares if you drink beer. Instead of pursuing her admission that she is a sinner, instead of delving into her weak profession of faith, the interviewer pounces on the fact that she has a beer in her hand and assumes she is still living in sin because of that.

WOW – questionable methodology is one thing. But missed opportunities, perpetuating unbiblical stereotypes, and bad theology are even worse.

That’s the real tragedy here.

275   Joe    http://www.joemartino.name
April 9th, 2009 at 11:48 am

#274.

Yeah, we’ve mentioned that, but you did a good job summing it up. It’s legalistic crap.

276   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 9th, 2009 at 11:50 am

Paragraphs are for the unregenerate…

For all their love of the book of Romans, people seem to leave out this part, which is perhaps one of the biggest parts of Paul’s argument:

Romans 2:1-4
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?

I realize it is totally unfruitful to argue with someone like Rob, and I was ignorant to try and do so last night. I have unfortunately encountered plenty of people that have the same thinking as he’s exhibiting. Saying that God loves sinners isn’t “half the Gospel” – it’s the heart of the Gospel! If people are going to quibble over this fact, it’s of no use debating them.

277   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 9th, 2009 at 11:56 am

I find this absolutely tragic. It perpetuates the legalistic notion that God cares if you drink beer. Instead of pursuing her admission that she is a sinner, instead of delving into her weak profession of faith, the interviewer pounces on the fact that she has a beer in her hand and assumes she is still living in sin because of that.

WOW – questionable methodology is one thing. But missed opportunities, perpetuating unbiblical stereotypes, and bad theology are even worse.

That’s the real tragedy here.

Yes, that’s the issue I was getting at earlier. Anyone can stand with a sound system and yell at people, but how many of them will invest in these students’ lives? How many of them will take the call from a student who’s life is in shambles because of poor choices?

Perhaps I’m a bit more passionate about this since it involves college students, and I worked in campus ministry for so long, but it really does irritate me. If the main work of “preaching the Gospel” involved yelling at people with bullhorns or sound systems, it seem America would be completely evangelized by now.

278   Neil    
April 9th, 2009 at 12:10 pm

#274.

Yeah, we’ve mentioned that, but you did a good job summing it up. It’s legalistic crap.

It’s just such a shame… this young woman has obviously thought through the fact that she’s a sinner… that she needs a Savior.

And what did he emphasize – HER BEER!

279   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 9th, 2009 at 12:23 pm

Beer is the anti-christ.

Good thoughts, Neil.

Nail + hammer = hit.

280   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
April 9th, 2009 at 12:45 pm

In view of some of the discussions that have been flying around regarding the gospel, I just wrote a poem entitled good news.

http://www.borrowedbreath.com/2009/04/09/good-news/

Some have said that telling sinners that Jesus loves them is only half of the gospel.
Some seem to think that we need to do the Spirit’s job of convicting them that they are sinners.
I think most of us know who we are.

I believe that Jesus loves me is good news.

281   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 9th, 2009 at 12:50 pm

A wonderful poem, Nathanael. Just wonderful.

282   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
April 9th, 2009 at 12:52 pm

Thank you, sir.
It’s certainly rough with zero editing.
But sometimes simple is better.

283   nc    
April 9th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

Who knew? Beer damned me to hell

284   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 9th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

Great poem Nathanael!

I was thinking about this over lunch, and I think that at the heart of the issue is simply the fact that we (and I’ll include myself in the group as well) just don’t trust God. We don’t really think the Holy Spirit can convict people of sin. We don’t believe that a person meeting Jesus can really change him.

So we add our religious rules and hoops on top of the Gospel. We say, “well unless you do this or that, you’re not really a Christian”. It’s like we just don’t trust God enough to put the results in His hands.

If you look at the people who encountered Jesus in the Gospels, the only ones who had to be told to repent were the religious folks. “Sinners” like Zacchaeus repented because they realized that Jesus loved them despite their sin. The repentance was in response to Christ’s love and kindness. No one had to tell them they were sinners. They already knew. What they didn’t know was that they were loved.

285   Isaiah    
April 9th, 2009 at 1:23 pm

I’m a friend of Joe’s here in G.R. My question is for John Chisham. Do you even know Joe? He’s the most direct person I’ve ever met. You’re accusations against him cracked me up. You couldn’t be more wrong about a person.

286   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
April 9th, 2009 at 1:31 pm

At the risk of self-promotion :) I will provide another link to my website.

Phil, you said, “So we add our religious rules and hoops on top of the Gospel.”

That reminded me of this post:
http://www.borrowedbreath.com/2007/10/04/extra-weight/

Now I’m done.
No more links.

I’m turning into Richard!
(I keed! I keed!)

287   Thurstin    http://www.needgod.com
April 9th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

Isaiah,
My Pastor cannot answer, because the crack staff has put him on moderation for posting from his cell phone.

If Joe was so direct, why didn’t he just post the video and ask about us? I was on that trip, as was Rob who you mock and insult.

I thought I was an immature college student!

That girl by the way was DRUNK. It was before noon. And she admitted such off camera, which is why she was ashamed of the beer. She also claimed to be a Christian.

What was truly tragic is she showed up at the end of the week (that was filmed on Monday) to our preaching site…and she was drunk again!

It isn’t about having a beer or a couple of beers.It is about being a drunkard. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

And I hope Phil appreciates the paragraphs. He should look past the formatting into the truth. I have a college minister like you, Phil. He accepted all people on their Spring Break Trip including Catholics who did not even believe in salvation by faith alone in Christ alone. They didn’t believe the little tracts they were handing out!

288   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 9th, 2009 at 2:40 pm

I have a college minister like you, Phil.

That we could all be so lucky… :mrgreen:

289   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 9th, 2009 at 2:47 pm

My Pastor cannot answer, because the crack staff has put him on moderation for posting from his cell phone.

Actually, the moderation was for switching aliases (which he’s been warned about numerous times), among other things. And even so, when he posts as “Pastorboy” (his long-time chosen alias), his posts are approved in rather short order. We don’t delete comments here, as well, so none of his comments will be deleted.

[Besides which, he said he was leaving, so I was surprised to see him back 24 hours later...]

As anyone who’s been on moderation here can tell you, it doesn’t last that long if you clean up your act (which typically has to do with avoiding aliases and/or belligerent nastiness that relies on the instant gratification unregulated commenting can provide)…

290   Joe    
April 9th, 2009 at 2:49 pm

I thought I was an immature college student!

Stick with that thought…

291   Joe    
April 9th, 2009 at 2:50 pm

#289

[Besides which, he said he was leaving, so I was surprised to see him back 24 hours later...]

Yeah, what happened to shaking the dust and all that jazz?

292   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 9th, 2009 at 2:54 pm

If you were in the Spirit, and humbly preaching the gospel, and if you had God’s approval, why then does it bother you to be criticized? Why are you so vicious in defending yourself including questioning the salvation of any who dare object to your tone/method?

When you do right and are persecuted, are you not to rejoice? Again, preaching the gospel anywhere is good, but preaching wrath, filming and demeaning sinners, and showcasing your “boldness” is unacceptable and contrary to the humility that is in Christ.

When you respond with such virulence and aggressiveness, it reveals the flesh and not the Spirit.

293   Neil    
April 9th, 2009 at 3:20 pm

That girl by the way was DRUNK…she admitted such off camera…she also claimed to be a Christian…It isn’t about having a beer or a couple of beers.It is about being a drunkard. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

If this is the case, then it’s a poor case of editing since she doesn’t appear drunk and the focus is on the beer – as far as the video clip is concerned.

What was truly tragic is she showed up at the end of the week (that was filmed on Monday) to our preaching site…and she was drunk again!

What’s tragic is skirting her admission that she deserves the wrath of God for her sin to focus on her alcohol consumption.

294   Neil    
April 9th, 2009 at 3:24 pm

As I said before… it isn’t the method I am reacting to as much as the tangential stuff…

295   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 9th, 2009 at 3:26 pm

Depravity and lostness is not tethered to alcohol consumption. It may or not be a symptom, but it is not the cause.

A thought of judgment, or a thought of lust, or even a passing thought of self righteousness is just as bad as being drunk. But usually when those things occur no one is there with cameras to record them. :cool:

296   Neil    
April 9th, 2009 at 3:36 pm

I guess I just don’t understand the need (or desire) to stand and condemn people publicly (and I choose these words strategically).

Proclaiming the Gospel is fine, condemning sinners for sinning seems a bit redundant.

297   Rob    
April 9th, 2009 at 6:33 pm

Phil Miller Says :post 276

Romans 2:1-4

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?

This is what troubles me with Phil. Have you heard of exegesis. It means to explain what the Scripture says.Phil you quote Rom 2:1-4 . why dont you quote the whole chapter lets quote where you left off Romans 2:5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, It is clearly talking about a hypocrite he partys drinks has sex out side of marriage then condemn people when they do it . Did you see one of the preachers drinking beer having sex out side of marriage . The stepping up to the mic and preaching against it . Phil you need to read in context what you are doing is eisogesis Reading into text something that isn’t there at all.lets take a look at the rest of the verses Rom 2:6 will judge all people according to what they have done. I thought God was a loving God now he is judging doesnt sound like the God the campus crusders told me about Rom 2:7 He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. Oh if you do good he will give you eternal life . You mean if i drink beer get drunk i am not doing good how come no one told me about this i have alot of christians friends with me and they drink and party with me . I even had Christian take me to bars in there van . So i would not get a Dui if i drove my car. But they never told me that i would go to hell if i didnt repent . Rom 2:8 But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and practice evil deeds. OH WOW GOD is upset at me and full or anger i thought God was love and would except me the way i lived . This is exactly what goes on with so called patient evangelism it is all about the flesh and not a drop of it glorify God . Instead telling the person listen the lifestyle you are living God is angry with and you are storing up wrath you need to call out to the saviour and cry out to him . He died in your place so you wouldnt have to take the wrath of God . You need to repent and live for 24/7 he cant be your saviour if he is not your lord of your life . That is biblical evangelism not this sloopy agape nonsense that breeds false convert thinking that God owes them something because they let JESUS in there life .Phil until you really understand what Jesus did on the cross for your sins and my sins you will never be able to properly evangelize . You will never glorify God in it as well . It will be a man center gospel that begs people to let Jesus in there heart . I am praying for you Phil that God speaks to you .

298   Joe    
April 9th, 2009 at 6:35 pm

What are the chances that Rob is Mike R.?

299   room2blog    http://room2blog.wordpress.com
April 9th, 2009 at 6:53 pm

@Rob:

Come on, is it sooo hard to format your posting? Dropping an occasional paragraph won’t hurt you and will make your argument look much more convincing.

300   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 9th, 2009 at 7:00 pm

I am praying for you Phil that God speaks to you .

Well, thanks for the prayer. I’ll take it. I hope God speaks to me as well.

Seriously, though, I will pray for you as well. Legalism is a tremendous burden. God doesn’t love you or me more or less because of what we do or don’t do.

Certainly there are plenty of things people do that are not God-honoring and cause them to miss what God has desired for them. I do believe that God will help us to live lives that honor Him, but I also believe He doesn’t turn away when we mess up. In fact He is waiting for us to run back to Him before we decide to.

301   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 9th, 2009 at 7:01 pm

Rob,

Jesus can’t be your savior if he is not Life itself to you… We do not have a life, we exchange our life (our death) for His Life… which is eternal… that is what the resurrected life is all about.

We no longer live, but Christ in us does… so whatever you make Jesus in YOUR life means nothing…

We have no life outside of Jesus… so if you cling to your life even making Jesus Lord of it, you will die as you have no life in you… Only when we die to ourselves and live to Christ will we live eternally.

So if you want to pick at the bones, you are still dead in your sins by what the bible states if you are only adding Jesus to your own life.

iggy

302   Neil    
April 10th, 2009 at 10:23 am

Rob,

What I don’t follow in your (almost painfully difficult to read) post is how you make the connection between Christ’s finished work on the cross and what you call patient evangelism.

Why does the need to repent require confrontational name calling?

Neil

303   Rob    
April 10th, 2009 at 4:46 pm

300 Phil Miller Says

Seriously, though, I will pray for you as well. Legalism is a tremendous burden. God doesn’t love you or me more or less because of what we do or don’t do.

Certainly there are plenty of things people do that are not God-honoring and cause them to miss what God has desired for them. I do believe that God will help us to live lives that honor Him, but I also believe He doesn’t turn away when we mess up. In fact He is waiting for us to run back to Him before we decide to.

Phil i think you missed the whole point . Honor God in everything you do is not legalism .
When people cry legalism 9 out of 10 times it is something that they dont want to give up in there life . In my experience .
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
If you called that legalism take that up with God .

I do believe that God will help us to live lives that honor Him, but I also believe He doesn’t turn away when we mess up. In fact He is waiting for us to run back to Him before we decide to

Good point God will help us but the key is do we want help many people at the beach that day wanted to boast in there sin and claim they are a christian that is the problem i had .
But there is one spring breaker i spoke to he told me he knew what he was doing wrong and i have no excuse for what i am doing my parents get on there knees and pray for me every day and i come out here and get drunk .

That person was honest and knew what he was doing what is wrong . I have Alot of respect in a person like that . That tells me hey i am wrong for being here please pray for me ,
But when i hear time and time that Jesus turn water into wine i get get drunk i am sorry that person needs to be warn about hell.
Like driving down the road when someone flashes there light it usually means danger ahead warning you danger danger that is what a open air preacher does .
Open air preacher can reach more people in one week then someone that does patient evangelism in a life in one week .
There where over 5000 people out there on the beach they heard the gospel death and resurection .
There where people in there hotel room they heard the gospel . From preaching on the beach .
One person heard the gospel from is hotel room and called out to Jesus and was saved . I was told that from a campus crusader .
I will give you a perfect example of patient evangelism . My friend was doing patient evangelism he gave this person a third day cd .
He was going to meet me with him but he never made it he flip his corvette over and died in coma .

Like i was saying earlier in the post you need to come out of your comfort zone and tell people the good news warn them about hell give them the 10 commandents show them why they need a saviour and then if they reject the good news love them even more .

I have muslim friends atheist etx I gave them the gospel i tell them i care about where they will spend eternity i dont want them to go to hell .
They rejected but i still care about them i go out of my way for them . But shame on me if i try to sell christianity to them by not telling them upfront who i am . God forbid if one of them die and i am doing patient evangelism .
It is not biblical you need to tell them upfront the gospel . They could die before the night is out . The bible says now is the day of salvation 2Cr 6:2. Jesus was and open air preacher paul john the baptist the bible says lift your voice up like a trumphet and show my people there sins , Isa 58 .
The problem is we are trying to change the gospel to fit the culture . Only the gospel can change the culture that is the biblical gospel .

304   Rob    
April 10th, 2009 at 4:53 pm

302Neil Says:
April 10th, 2009 at 10:23 am
Rob,

What I don’t follow in your (almost painfully difficult to read) post is how you make the connection between Christ’s finished work on the cross and what you call patient evangelism.

Why does the need to repent require confrontational name calling?

Neil

Neil read my earlier post Patient evangelism is not biblical you need to come up of your comfort zone and be real . You will get more respect that way as well. 150,000 die everyday .
You need to tell that person can i speak to you i have something very serious i want to tell you because i care about where you will spend eternity .
If you where to die would you go to heaven . Then tell them the good news. if they reject you then love them even more .

Why does the need to repent require confrontational name calling?

Neil can you give me and example where you there at the beach .
I quoted 1 cor 6-9 ,10 where it says no drunkard will enter heaven alot of people told me where is that in the bible .
Is that the name calling you are talking about it .

305   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 10th, 2009 at 5:00 pm

Neil read my earlier post Patient evangelism is not biblical you need to come up of your comfort zone and be real .

What to the what?
______________
Holy Spirit

33 A.D. – 2009 A.D.

R.I.P.
______________

Sorry, I forgot that the Holy Spirit died, and that the gospel was just a viral marketing campaign for fire insurance.

Thanks for clearing that up, Rob.

306   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 10th, 2009 at 5:09 pm

I quoted 1 cor 6-9 ,10 where it says no drunkard will enter heaven alot of people told me where is that in the bible .

I hate to point this out to you, but this is what 1 Cor 6:9-11 says -

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Do you know what Paul (and Jesus) mean when they use the phrase ‘inherit the kingdom of God/Heaven’? The kingdom is not some place that you go to some day called ‘heaven’ – but it is something that we are called to be a part of now. The kingdom exists in community where things are as God would have them be.

Actually, “Patient evangelism” is what we are called to do and be. Jesus’ command was –

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

Making disciples (talmidim) is not standing on a street corner shouting at people – it is patient 1:1 relationship that is gradual and personal.

You need to tell that person can i speak to you i have something very serious i want to tell you because i care about where you will spend eternity .

No, you need to live life in such a way that Christ is glorified, and that draws people to want to live life in the reality of the salvation freely given to them.

307   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 10th, 2009 at 5:30 pm

I thought patience is one of the fruits of the Spirit. I fail to see why we shouldn’t be patient in evangelizing people.

Also, I don’t know why Rob is harping on this alcohol thing so much. It is possible to partake with getting drunk. Jesus drank and didn’t get drunk.

If a Christian does happen to slip up, is that the unforgivable sin? I guess there’s no grace for people who mess up.

By the way, Rob, just in case you’re wondering, I do have a beer every now and then, but I’ve never been drunk. I’ve really never had more than two in one evening, actually.

308   Neil    
April 10th, 2009 at 6:08 pm

…Patient evangelism is not biblical you need to come up of your comfort zone and be real . You will get more respect that way as well. – Rob

First off I reject your interpretation. You are elevating one particular method to a status that is unjustifiable. If you wish to employ a certain method – fine. But calling other methods unbiblical strips you of credibility. As for respect – seriously, shouting condemnations to strangers as they pass by is a way to garner respect? Why do you care about respect anyway?

309   Neil    
April 10th, 2009 at 6:10 pm

You need to tell that person can i speak to you i have something very serious i want to tell you because i care about where you will spend eternity. – Rob

I agree, and that is best done by putting down the microphone, laying off the stereotypes, and engaging that person in a conversation.

310   Neil    
April 10th, 2009 at 6:16 pm

I quoted 1 cor 6-9 ,10 where it says no drunkard will enter heaven alot of people told me where is that in the bible. – Rob

Fine, but why would you expect someone who is not in Christ to care what the Bible says about drinking? If you are referring to the young woman at the 4:27 mark – I still think an opportunity was missed because the interviewer was more interest in pointing out her drunkenness than leading her to grace.

311   Neil    
April 10th, 2009 at 6:19 pm

I thought patience is one of the fruits of the Spirit. I fail to see why we shouldn’t be patient in evangelizing people.

It’s a numbers thing born from a modernist mindset. The goal is to make converts (as opposed to Jesus’ commission to make disciple) and converts are made when someone repeats the formula as presented to them.

Of course, this has only developed since the enlightenment – it very “mo.”

Even the great Billy Graham realized this, and in his latter years made changes to his methods.

312   Neil    
April 10th, 2009 at 6:30 pm

Open air preacher can reach more people in one week then someone that does patient evangelism in a life in one week .
There where over 5000 people out there on the beach they heard the gospel death and resurection

I believe you have reduced “reaching” and “hearing” to an absurd level. Have you ever seen “The Gospel Blimp?”

313   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 10th, 2009 at 6:52 pm

One service at Saddleback reaches more than 5000 any given Sunday… sooo if ho many hear really MEAN ANYTHING… then the accusations against RW should end… But they wont…

Also, this assumes that one is preaching the gospel and not just yelling “Sinners repent”… for there is much more to the Gospel than yelling “Sinner repent”… in fact that means NOTHING without the most important part… Who Jesus is and what he has done for us…

iggy

314   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 10th, 2009 at 6:56 pm

As I watched the entire film again I realized there was NO GOSPEL. The death, burial, and resurrection was never presented as the gospel, only the wrath of God was preached.No one quoted Jn 3:16, and no one emphasized the love of God.

This is the opening message:

“Many might profess to know Christ, and many might profess to know some form of religion. But it isn’t the Christ of Scripture. Many say God is a God of love, but you cannot know the love of God until you see what you are in the sight of God.

You are wicked and depraved, and you are deserving of the deepest judgment and hell. Do you not believe that you are evil? Do you not believe that you are a sinner? You may say but I’m a good person and I’m just having fun. I’m getting drunk with my friends and I’m not hurting anyone…”

But in the entire video there is no gospel. No penal substitution explanation, and no real explanation of the gospel at all. Now if Rick Warren had not given the gospel he would be castigated. So where is the difference?

There is more filming of lewd behavior than there is of gospel preaching. That film is not the gospel at all. Somebody quote me where the gospel was preached.

315   Joe    
April 10th, 2009 at 7:01 pm

As I watched the entire film again I realized there was NO GOSPEL. The death, burial, and resurrection was never presented as the gospel, only the wrath of God was preached.

Ka-Ching!!! I was waiting for someone to point this out. I feared my admitted dislike for John would lend some to not hear it coming from me. This is not a video of the gospel. This is a video of people placing heavy burdens on the backs of people. Now, I realize the video doesn’t capture all that was done but what was presented is not the gospel. Perhaps, this is why John was so snarky on my blog.

316   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 10th, 2009 at 7:03 pm

Rob,

Neil read my earlier post Patient evangelism is not biblical you need to come up of your comfort zone and be real .

So Paul lied?

Maybe start by reading Romans chapter 1 and 2 in context… and understand that God Himself was doing patient evangelism by not judging man but showing his Kindness in sending Jesus.

Try reading Romans 9 with understanding again that God was patient with the vessels of wrath…

2 Cor 6:18 calls us to patience and kindness in the Holy Spirit and sincere in love…

I could continue, but take a handy ole KJV and do a study on longsuffering… or an NIV on patience… and you will find your understanding is so far off…

Now also Paul tells wives of unbelievers that decide to stay with their husbands to love them and win them over in time… again patience…

So, it comes down to believing you, or the bible… though I am but a lowly heretical emergent, I will stick with the bible as it is very clear as to what the Truth is.

blessings,
iggy

317   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 10th, 2009 at 7:05 pm

Joe,

I stated a few times PB had not given a full gospel presentation and had only a partial one… he then just got angry… it was when he was stating Rick Warren and Rob Bell did not have a full gospel…

I think that both RW and RB have a fuller gospel than the OT wrath version that PB preached.

iggy

318   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 10th, 2009 at 7:14 pm

In fact, it was a false gospel. Telling people to stop sinning is a false gospel. Nowhere does he mention faith in a gospel context, and in fact his presentation is a WORKS GOSPEL.

PB is a false teacher.

319   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
April 11th, 2009 at 9:07 pm

This Friday, by the grace of God, I was in Minneapolis with my family.

I stopped by the University of Minnesota, where they had not cancelled classes. There were lots of students around.

I simply read Matthew 26-28, and gave a brief 7 minute Gospel presentation. It was called bringing ‘Good Friday’ out of the church into the world.

When I was finished, another young man and his family began to street preach. It was wonderful to see.

I wondered for a moment if this would be more in line with your sensitivities. Then I remembered; I do what I do for Christ and His glory, and for the love of people, out of the ultimate desire that Christ would receive the glory for his suffering.

I guess what I am saying is I do not care what you people think.

May God Bless you as you worship whatever Jesus it is you choose to worship. I pray that all this grace talk will become a reality in your lives through the power of Jesus’ resurrection, and that His grace would transform you.

320   Rob    
April 13th, 2009 at 4:06 pm

reply to 306 Chris L Says:

Do you know what Paul (and Jesus) mean when they use the phrase ‘inherit the kingdom of God/Heaven’? The kingdom is not some place that you go to some day called ‘heaven’ – but it is something that we are called to be a part of now. The kingdom exists in community where things are as God would have them be.

This is the problem i have Chris you need to read the bible stop coming up with stuff that is not biblical .

Shortly before His arrest, trial and crucifixion, Jesus Christ prophesied of a worldwide period of upheaval and unrest unparalleled in human history. This time would be characterized by religious deception, warfare, earthquakes, famines and disease epidemics, along with other great catastrophic events (Luke 21:7-28). In this discourse, Christ made it plain that the Kingdom of God was not here yet.

He told His disciples that, after these events, people “will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory … When you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near” (verses 27, 31). Christ clearly said that the Kingdom of God will not be established on earth until after His triumphant return in power and great glory. Christ also made this plain on other occasions. How many of us have recited the Lord’s Prayer without recognizing the plain meaning of the words as we said them? These familiar words were given by Jesus Christ in response to the disciples’ request of Him to teach them how to pray. “In this manner, therefore, pray,” Jesus Christ told them. “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come” (Matthew 6:9, 10). The most common prayer in Christendom acknowledges that God’s Kingdom is not here yet and that Christians are to fervently pray for its arrival!
Near the end of His life, while being questioned by Pilate before His crucifixion, Jesus clearly stated: “My

Kingdom is not of this world.

If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here” (John 18:36).

Actually, “Patient evangelism” is what we are called to do and be. Jesus’ command was –

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

I know this might be something you are not use to Chris but please read in context . First of all Jesus command
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Very clear Chris Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with [them], and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

What does the word Preach mean to you Chris . It is the greek word k?ryss? it means to proclaim in public. Acts 18:28: “…for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.”

There is that word preach again 1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. Once again you preach the gospel then you make disciples .
The gospel is what saves nothing else then you make disciples . They have to become saved before they become a disciples . Preaching the gospel is what saves . Once again the word preach is proclaim . 1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; Rom 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
Chris quick note where is the kingdom of God. I will let Jesus answer it for you again.
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Chris what did Jesus tell the apostles do ?

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
What does the word preach mean Chris ?

Matthew 22:29: Jesus told the Sadducees, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures, or the power of God.”

321   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 13th, 2009 at 4:28 pm

The most common prayer in Christendom acknowledges that God’s Kingdom is not here yet and that Christians are to fervently pray for its arrival!

The Kingdom has both arrived and not here yet. It has broken into history through the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ, but it has not yet fully arrived. It’s one of the basic tensions of our faith.

If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here” (John 18:36).

You actually kind of stumbled into the meaning here. When Jesus says His kingdom isn’t of this world, He’s not talking of a location. He’s talking about the principles of the Kingdom. The “world” refers to the basic set of principles, assumptions, and motivations that drive people, governments, and institutions on earth. I like how Walter Wink puts it. He translates “world” to “the Domination System”. So when Jesus says His Kingdom isn’t of this world, He means His Kingdom isn’t run and won’t be ushered in the way earthly kingdoms are. It comes through sacrificial love and being willing to love our enemies.

The gospel is what saves nothing else then you make disciples . They have to become saved before they become a disciples .

But we are unequivocally told to “make disciples”. We aren’t told to make converts. So yes conversion is sort of de facto step to becoming a disciple, but there’s no magic formula for doing either.

322   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 13th, 2009 at 4:34 pm

I know this might be something you are not use to Chris but please read in context .

By the way, I love the irony of this warning when the commenter then proceeds to put up a whole litany of Scriptures taken out of context…

The internet is a great place!

323   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 13th, 2009 at 4:51 pm

This is the problem i have Chris you need to read the bible stop coming up with stuff that is not biblical .

Sorry, Rob, but you have absolutely no clue, whatsoever.

The colloquialism “is at hand” in Hebrew means that something is here and can be touched, not something is ‘almost here’. This is a common misperception regarding the “kingdom is at hand”. The Kingdom of God/Heaven was Jesus’ favorite sermon topic – mentioned more than any other. And if you read the end of Acts, the Kingdom and the Gospel were Paul’s two sermon topics.

Jesus’ entire ministry was about the kingdom, and how those who wish to follow God’s intent would live in it.

If you break down the phrase “the kingdom of God/Heaven”, the best English expression would be “God’s Reign” – which is to say, how things operate when people are submitting to God. In Jesus’ teaching, the kingdom is not about maintaining the ‘minimums’ of the law, but living in such a way as you meet the aim of the law, not just the letter of the law – Love God, Love your neighbor.

The more you make ‘the kingdom of God/heaven’ about something that will happen some day, somewhere else, the more you miss out on it. The more you are completely irrelevant to a world that is in need of it.

Which explains why shouting “your sinning!” at sinners on Spring Break seems like such a good idea to some people, when it’s really just utter stupidity and anti-Christian. It might stoke their egos, but it’s pretty much useless, otherwise.

The most common prayer in Christendom acknowledges that God’s Kingdom is not here yet and that Christians are to fervently pray for its arrival!

*zzzzt!*

Wrong again – it is a prayer that God’s rulership spread and that his kingdom would continue to increase.

Part of your problem is that you see this as a “point-in-time” event at some time in the future – conflating it with the second coming.

Charles Colson likens the kingdom of God and the Second Coming this way – In WWII, D-Day established the downfall of the Axis powers on June 6, 1944. On that day, the supremacy of the Allied powers was established and the war was decided. However, it wasn’t until V-E Day on May 8, 1945 that total victory was achieved and put into place. In the same way, the kingdom of God was established by Jesus in 33 A.D., even though the powers of evil will not have fully surrendered until Jesus’ final return.

Making the Kingdom of God about something later and elsewhere has been one of the most damning outcomes of segments of the Protestant Reformation.

My kingdom is not of this world.

Please see this article. The world, kosmos in Greek, is referring to the systems by which the world runs (power, coersion, etc.), not the physical location. Had Jesus been referring to this physical place, he would have referred to ‘the land’ and not ‘the world’.

I know this might be something you are not use to Chris but please read in context . First of all Jesus command Mar 16:15 …

Perhaps you didn’t notice, but I quoted from Matthew 28, and I did use the context.

Preaching the gospel is what saves

Actually, no. Accepting the gospel of Jesus, through the gift of the Holy Spirit, is what saves – and that salvation begins here, not someday, somewhere else.
Chris what did Jesus tell the apostles do ?

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
What does the word preach mean Chris ?

If we’re going to lecture on context, Rob, let’s do so, by all means. From Mark 16:

First, let’s note:
((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.))

Even so, let’s quote from it:

He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

So, let me know when you’ve also taken care of the poison-drinking, snake-handling and tongue-speaking thing, as well.

However, all reliable manuscripts have Matthew 28 in its entirety. How does it end?

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

I would note that the words used in Matthew are much more descriptive, particularly to a predominately Jewish audience – go, make, baptizing, teaching. These DO imply preaching and teaching, but they are predominantly centered on relationship and action, not just words. They are about changing lives now.

Matthew 22:29: Jesus told the Sadducees, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures, or the power of God.”

Very much agreed. Perhaps you should take this to heart and spend a little less time on the beach…

324   Joe    
April 13th, 2009 at 4:51 pm

Rob,
Could you tell us a little bit about your story?

325   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 13th, 2009 at 5:03 pm

One of the problems we have is attempting to define mysteries with the finite words and understandings of men.

Matt.12: 28 – But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

The kingdom of God is spiritual, and the coming kingdom will be material, but both are the very same kingdom.

Yelling “stop sinning” at beach partiers leaves you open to them shouting back “Why do you still sin? Stop sinning!!”.

Irony, I love it.

326   Rob    
April 13th, 2009 at 5:56 pm

Phil 307

Also, I don’t know why Rob is harping on this alcohol thing so much. It is possible to partake with getting drunk. Jesus drank and didn’t get drunk.

Proverbs 31:4 says It is not for kings to drink wine, nor for princes strong drink.” Leviticus 10:9 says priests will die if they attempt to serve God while drinking wine or strong drink.

Rev 1:6 says Jesus has made us “kings and priests”. Therefore if you believe Christians are kings and priests then it is not for Christians to drink wine or strong drink.

If your pastor teaches other wise he is following a spirit of falsehood. Micah 2:11 says if a man comes among sinners teaching that they can have alcohol and strong drinks they will hail him as a prophet but he is “walking in a spirit of falsehood”.

Here Are Two Reasons why it could not have been alcohol.

Alcohol is created by adding leaven (yeast) to grapes and then processing it at the right temperature. Jesus was celebrating the feast of the Passover when all leaven/yeast is removed from Israel . Anyone eating bread with yeast or any product that had yeast in it was “cut off from Israel”. Jesus was eating unleavened bread and drinking unleavened grape juice.

327   Rob    
April 13th, 2009 at 6:01 pm

308 neil says

First off I reject your interpretation. You are elevating one particular method to a status that is unjustifiable. If you wish to employ a certain method – fine. But calling other methods unbiblical strips you of credibility. As for respect – seriously, shouting condemnations to strangers as they pass by is a way to garner respect? Why do you care about respect anyway?

Once again no bible verses to back anything just phil opinion . Sorry phil your opinion means nothing . I quess you dont like biblical evangelism . 2Cr 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

(Mat. 4:17)Jesus said, ‘Unless YOU repent, YOU will all likewise PERISH.”

328   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 13th, 2009 at 6:04 pm

ROb,

Jesus said,

Matthew 11:28. “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

I was in your world a for a long time Rob.. until the Grace of God broke through and lifted the burden of the Law from me.

My prayers are for you and with you… that one day your burden be lifted by Jesus and come out from the yoke of the Law.

Blessings,

iggy

The Life is in the Son…

329   Rob    
April 13th, 2009 at 6:08 pm

phil says 309

I agree, and that is best done by putting down the microphone, laying off the stereotypes, and engaging that person in a conversation.

ISA 58 .1Cry aloud, spare not; Lift up your voice like a trumpet; Tell My people their transgression, And the house of Jacob their sins.

330   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 13th, 2009 at 6:12 pm

So Rob,

Only repenting saves you? You state this “repent or perish” over and over… yet as I pointed out, without Jesus repentance means nothing…

So what you are preaching is a lie… we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ… repentance is the response we have to the kindness of God that He showed us through Jesus….

You are preaching repentance as works… and leaving out Jesus… which leaves people still dead in their sins though their conscience may make them “feel” better for admitting they sinned.

Again, one cannot be saved without Jesus…

iggy

331   Joe    
April 13th, 2009 at 6:18 pm

#326.
Wow, at this point why carry on with this guy?

332   Rob    
April 13th, 2009 at 6:19 pm

iGGY 313

One service at Saddleback reaches more than 5000 any given Sunday… sooo if ho many hear really MEAN ANYTHING… then the accusations against RW should end… But they wont…

Also, this assumes that one is preaching the gospel and not just yelling “Sinners repent”… for there is much more to the Gospel than yelling “Sinner repent”… in fact that means NOTHING without the most important part… Who Jesus is and what he has done for us…

once again Jesus started his ministry by saying repent or perish . The problem here you do not read my post it is the same thing rehash and rehash here because you have no clue who Jesus is .

Isaiah 55:6-7? “Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.” God is holy, and he demands that we forsake sin in order to have his fellowship.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death” (2 Cor 7:10).

(Mat. 4:17)Jesus said, ‘Unless YOU repent, YOU will all likewise PERISH.”

——————————————————————————–

333   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 13th, 2009 at 6:27 pm

Here Are Two Reasons why it could not have been alcohol.

Alcohol is created by adding leaven (yeast) to grapes and then processing it at the right temperature. Jesus was celebrating the feast of the Passover when all leaven/yeast is removed from Israel . Anyone eating bread with yeast or any product that had yeast in it was “cut off from Israel”. Jesus was eating unleavened bread and drinking unleavened grape juice.

Ah yes, this old spiel… I’m sorry, but those arguments are simply ridiculous. Unfermented wine would contain alcohol as well, as even without yeast it would begin to ferment. The Jews didn’t differentiate between two – they used the same word. It seems to me that if it were an important thing, it would be clear.

As far as the thing from Leviticus, we are ministers of the new covenant, not the old. It has no effect on us any more.

There are plenty of reasons to not drink. I think that it’s wise to abstain in many circumstances, but I also don’t think we need to make up rules that aren’t in Scripture just to fit our agenda.

334   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 13th, 2009 at 6:29 pm

No Rob,

You seem to mix Jesus and the Law and often take Jesus out of context as to whom he was speaking to. Are you a Jew? Did you come to faith in Christ through the Law? Are you saved by keeping the Law?

It seems that you mix Law and Graced and negate both thus negating what Jesus did on the Cross.

Jesus spoke to Jews under the Law… and as I point out above, he was telling them to repent from their own way and follow Messiah…

You are stating some “repent you sins to be saved” gospel that is not what the gospel is about…

Are you the judge of men’s souls that you can see my heart and judge it as you have? I guess you misses that part of the bibles teaching…

You are under legalistic bondage… and the Law will brake you… I pray it does, for when the Law is finished with you, then you will come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

So far you have preached a gospel of works… and that is easy to understand as you are taking what Jesus states in the Gospel that often was pointing out to people that the Law did not give life.

John 5: 39. You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40. yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Come to the Son and receive the Life… forsake the law as it will not save you.

iggy

335   M.G.    
April 13th, 2009 at 6:29 pm

Rob,

Micah 2:11 doesn’t say what you say it does. It’s an abuse of scripture to cite it in the way you do.

Also, in the 3000 year history of passover, wine has never been considered chametz.

I understand you want to “win” the argument, but winning isn’t worth your integrity.

336   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 13th, 2009 at 6:32 pm

Phil,

Jesus was so sinful… he turned water into wine…

He told us to break the bread in remembrance of his Body and drink the wine in remembrance of his Blood that was spilled for us…

Sinner that Jesus…

Paul was just as bad telling Timothy to drink a little wine for his indigestion…

Sinners all…

Now I agree we should not be drunk… but to state drinking alcohol is a sin… then the Reformation was based on the inebriation of a drunken monk who was not filled with the Holy Spirit…

Yep… even that Luther was a sinner… and loved his beer…

iggy

337   Rob    
April 13th, 2009 at 6:42 pm

Chris L Says: 323

Sorry, Rob, but you have absolutely no clue, whatsoever.

The colloquialism “is at hand” in Hebrew means that something is here and can be touched, not something is ‘almost here’. This is a common misperception regarding the “kingdom is at hand”. The Kingdom of God/Heaven was Jesus’ favorite sermon topic – mentioned more than any other. And if you read the end of Acts, the Kingdom and the Gospel were Paul’s two sermon topics.

Jesus’ entire ministry was about the kingdom, and how those who wish to follow God’s intent would live in it.

If you break down the phrase “the kingdom of God/Heaven”, the best English expression would be “God’s Reign” – which is to say, how things operate when people are submitting to God. In Jesus’ teaching, the kingdom is not about maintaining the ‘minimums’ of the law, but living in such a way as you meet the aim of the law, not just the letter of the law – Love God, Love your neighbor.

The more you make ‘the kingdom of God/heaven’ about something that will happen some day, somewhere else, the more you miss out on it. The more you are completely irrelevant to a world that is in need of it.

Which explains why shouting “your sinning!” at sinners on Spring Break seems like such a good idea to some people, when it’s really just utter stupidity and anti-Christian. It might stoke their egos, but it’s pretty much useless, otherwise.

.The book of Daniel predicts a kingdom of God that will rule the earth (Daniel 2:44, 7:13-14, 22); the New Testament Apocalypse describes its arrival (Revelation 11:15, 19:11-16).
We pray for the kingdom to come (Luke 11:2). The poor in spirit and the persecuted await their future “reward in heaven” (Matthew 5:3, 10, 12). People “enter the kingdom” on a future “day” of judgment (Matthew 7:21-23, Luke 13:22-30). Jesus gave one parable because some people thought the kingdom would become powerful right away (Luke 19:11). Paul speaks several times of “inheriting the kingdom of God” as a future experience (1 Corinthians 6:9, 10; 15:50; Galatians 5:21; cf. Ephesians 5:5), and otherwise indicates by his language that he thinks of it as realized only at the end of the age (1 Thessalonians 2:12; 2 Thessalonians 1:5; Colossians 4:11; cf. 2 Timothy 4:1, 18). When Paul wants to focus on the present manifestation of the kingdom, he tends either to introduce the term “justice” or “righteousness” along with “kingdom” (Romans 14:17) or in place of it (Romans 1:17; for the close association of the kingdom and the justice of God, see Matthew 6:33), or (alternatively) to connect the kingdom with Jesus Christ rather than God the Father (Colossians 1:13)

Chris this sounds like alot of Rob Bell heresy that wants to change the gospel to fit the culture .

338   Joe    
April 13th, 2009 at 6:46 pm

Rob Bell heresy

Wow, piss poor grammar aside, he gets his own heresy@! I’ll have to tell him

339   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 13th, 2009 at 6:48 pm

Rob,
You’ve not actually attempted to respond to our actual points. You’re just sticking to your canned, poorly exegeted copy and paste answers. If you’re not willing to discuss this, I suggest you quit wasting both your time and ours here.

It’s obvious that you are passionate about what you believe, and that is commendable. It also obvious that you have quite a bit to learn, and you would do well to study things a bit more in depth before you go accusing others of heresy.

Grace and peace.

340   Rob    
April 13th, 2009 at 6:57 pm

336 SAYS Jesus was so sinful… he turned water into wine…

He told us to break the bread in remembrance of his Body and drink the wine in remembrance of his Blood that was spilled for us…

Sinner that Jesus…

Paul was just as bad telling Timothy to drink a little wine for his indigestion…

Sinners all…

Now I agree we should not be drunk… but to state drinking alcohol is a sin… then the Reformation was based on the inebriation of a drunken monk who was not filled with the Holy Spirit…

Yep… even that Luther was a sinner… and loved his beer

who cares about luther is that your roll model we look to the bible for facts not your opinion iggy if you are looking to get drunk sorry the bible doesnt support stop looking to luther for a reason to get drunk .

Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations:

wine is a mocker , strong drink is a raging and whosoever is deceived by it is not wise.” (Prov.20.1)
Didn’t Jesus Drink Wine at the Last Supper?

At the Last Supper Jesus passed around the cup of and said “This cup is the New Testament in my blood, which is poured out for you.” (Luke 22:20)

Do you really think that he was saying that the symbol of the Christian Church and the New Covenant was the forbidden drink Alcoholic wine ?

341   Rob    
April 13th, 2009 at 7:01 pm

Phil Miller Says:

Rob,
You’ve not actually attempted to respond to our actual points. You’re just sticking to your canned, poorly exegeted copy and paste answers. If you’re not willing to discuss this, I suggest you quit wasting both your time and ours here.

It’s obvious that you are passionate about what you believe, and that is commendable. It also obvious that you have quite a bit to learn, and you would do well to study things a bit more in depth before you go accusing others of heresy.

Grace and peace.

Phil time and time i ask you to quote scripture back up anything you say with scripture you refuse to do it . Your opinion means nothing . If you dont know the answer and dont want to quote scripture please stop wasting my time . Maybe i should of ask you this along time ago do you believe the bible is the word of God all 66 books ?

342   Joe    
April 13th, 2009 at 7:03 pm

is that your roll model

well, what can we say? that’s how we roll

oh

you

meant

role model?

343   Rob    
April 13th, 2009 at 7:06 pm

Joe Says:338
nice vocabulary there Joey

‘Brood of vipers! how are ye able to speak good things — being evil? for out of the abundance of the heart doth the mouth speak. Matthew 12:34

344   M.G.    
April 13th, 2009 at 7:09 pm

1Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.

2Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

3Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

4Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

5Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

6Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.

7At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.

8They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them.

9Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.

10He sendeth the springs into the valleys, which run among the hills.

11They give drink to every beast of the field: the wild asses quench their thirst.

12By them shall the fowls of the heaven have their habitation, which sing among the branches.

13He watereth the hills from his chambers: the earth is satisfied with the fruit of thy works.

14He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;

15And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man’s heart.

345   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 13th, 2009 at 7:26 pm

I believe Joe’s comment #331 was one of best offerings of wisdom.

346   Bo Diaz    
April 13th, 2009 at 7:43 pm

Something to consider about wine. You don’t need to mix yeast with grape juice to produce wine. It does so naturally, and very quickly, within a day or so at the kind of temperatures you’d hit in the middle east.

In fact up until the last couple of hundred years it wasn’t possible to serve grape juice for communion.

But don’t let the facts get in the way of a good angry law based theology.

347   Joe    http://joemartino.name
April 13th, 2009 at 7:49 pm

Rob said,

nice vocabulary there Joey

Was that supposed to be insulting? WOW? You gotta be from Jersey. What a jerk. What are you 12?

348   Bo Diaz    
April 13th, 2009 at 7:55 pm

Upon further review I don’t think old Robbie here is legit. He’s probably the ADM version of punk’d.

349   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 13th, 2009 at 7:57 pm

I took the Nazarite vow so I cannot drink, however I supplement that with pain medicine. :cool:

350   Bo Diaz    
April 13th, 2009 at 8:04 pm

I imagine in your case that Jesus would turn Skittles into Vicaden.

351   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 13th, 2009 at 8:13 pm

Bo – :lol:

352   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 13th, 2009 at 8:16 pm

Bo – You should have a blog, even under a pseudonym!

353   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 13th, 2009 at 8:19 pm

Bo,

That pretty funny for a dead ball player…

:lol:

Get it… your dead… and using a fake name… Oh I am so witty!

J/k

(I guess I am going through PB withdrawal…?)

iggy

354   Joe    http://joemartino.name
April 13th, 2009 at 8:25 pm

So Mike Ratliffe has a post where he states that Rob Bell (he of the Rob Bell heresies) has “decried PSA.” I asked if he could produce a citation for his source, I’m betting he cannot. Anyone want to take that bet?
anyone?

355   Chris Redfield    
April 13th, 2009 at 8:27 pm

Who is Rob? He sounds like Chris P.

I’m a little concerned about his understanding of Daniel and Kingdom. I read this somewhere:

Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you.”

My wife made some roles yesterday. I’m eating one now. It is tasty with butter. :)

356   Rob    
April 13th, 2009 at 8:47 pm

reply to iggy 328

I was in your world a for a long time Rob.. until the Grace of God broke through and lifted the burden of the Law from me.

My prayers are for you and with you… that one day your burden be lifted by Jesus and come out from the yoke of the Law.

Blessings,

iggy

The Life is in the Son…

Iggy you are way off base here . first of all the bible says the law is our school master that bring us to Christ . Gal 3-24 the bible says the law is perfect for converting the soul. psa 19-7. Iggy the law can only push to the cross no further then that . Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. This breaks it all down here
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

That is biblical preaching like i said if you have a problem with the preachers . The reason you dont know the word of God .

357   Chris Redfield    
April 13th, 2009 at 8:56 pm

#356 should be enough for the rest of us to no longer bothering to converse with Rob. He’s trapped in a sort of religion that cannot be salvaged.

Rob I feel sorry for you since you have not been converted to or by the grace of God in Christ.

Sorry.

358   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
April 13th, 2009 at 8:59 pm

Wow Rob your proof texting is the best I’ve ever seen.

359   nc    
April 13th, 2009 at 9:01 pm

319:

Praise you, PB.
Praise you.

All glory to God via glorifying yourself.

ummm…yeah.

360   Bo Diaz    
April 13th, 2009 at 9:06 pm

You know, I have to wonder, if PB really isn’t concerned with what we think, why did he bother posting here?

Also, I noticed there was no actual report on the work of the gospel. Just a report on the work that he had done.

361   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 13th, 2009 at 9:11 pm

Rob,

Then why do you preach the Law… and though you repeat what I stated still say I am wrong? How can that be… How if all you do is restate the very passage I was speaking about and restate what I said, makes you right and me wrong? You argue against yourself… because if you agree with that, then we do not have an argument… yet, you still mix law and grace in every word you state… weakening both.

You are the preaching the Law… you add “repentance” as part of salvation as a work… I stated that Jesus alone saves by Grace… through faith… and that this kindenss leads to repentance… as Romans 2 teaches… and you state I am wrong…

So you teach a law of repentance I teach salvation by grace alone which leads us to repentance and a new Life as a New Creation…

And you say I am wrong?

You need to study much more… and come out from the Law to Grace.

iggy

362   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 13th, 2009 at 9:13 pm

#319 – And somewhere in Africa a humble believer wipes the brow of a mother dying of AIDs and helps take care of her five children. This believer has not eaten in two days, but she softley sings a praise song to this woman who became a believer in Christ just 6 months ago because of this missionary.

This young woman has given up marriage for now, the comfort of America, the blessing of her family, and basically an American career. This has become her calling and her “career”.

She cleans this sick woman’s vomit and excrement, and she only leaves her side to help care for her children.

Very few know this woman’s name and she has no YouTube videos extolling her boldness for Christ. She would never allow that anyway, and she dwells among many lost idol worshipers who engage in many types of immoral practices.

She shares Jesus as she shares herself. No newsletter, no blog, no video, and no self promotion. One day she will be recognized in the arena that God Himself will oversee, and on that day the last shall surely be first.

363   jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
April 13th, 2009 at 9:21 pm

Rick,

Amen.

Jerry

364   Bo Diaz    
April 13th, 2009 at 9:23 pm

Oh and if her ministry were discovered she’d be tongue lashed as having only the social gospel.

365   Rob    
April 13th, 2009 at 9:30 pm

iggy 316

So Paul lied?

Maybe start by reading Romans chapter 1 and 2 in context… and understand that God Himself was doing patient evangelism by not judging man but showing his Kindness in sending Jesus.

Try reading Romans 9 with understanding again that God was patient with the vessels of wrath…

2 Cor 6:18 calls us to patience and kindness in the Holy Spirit and sincere in love…

I could continue, but take a handy ole KJV and do a study on longsuffering… or an NIV on patience… and you will find your understanding is so far off…

Now also Paul tells wives of unbelievers that decide to stay with their husbands to love them and win them over in time… again patience…

So, it comes down to believing you, or the bible… though I am but a lowly heretical emergent, I will stick with the bible as it is very clear as to what the Truth is.

blessings,
iggy

Iggy have you even read Romans 1 and 2 .
Rom 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
Rom 1;32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Romans 2-5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. Amen great verse that is what and open air preachers does warn people that wrath is to come if they dont repent .

Romans 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Tough verse to swallow here . The verse is clearly he has vessels that he created for wrath . He can destroy them now or later .
I cant see how you get patience evangelism out of this verse iggy.

2Cr 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2Cr 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Iggy no patient evangelism there he is talking to believers there not non believers . Read in context alot of isogesis going on there iggy but i will pray for you that the holy spirit speak to you about this . God bless

366   Joe    http://joemartino.name
April 13th, 2009 at 9:37 pm

Ok, so anyone who took the bet that Mike would be able to provide a verifiable source needs to pay up. He links to some other guy’s blog who linked to a review he read and then talks about his impressions.

How’s that for crack research? At this point I shouldn’t be surprised but I am. Mike Ratliff needs to repent.

367   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 13th, 2009 at 9:43 pm

Rob,

God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud…

My prayers are with you… and may you submit to the Holy Spirit and learn from him…

iggy

368   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 13th, 2009 at 9:44 pm

Rob can’t see but we should pray God opens his eyes…
and heart to the gospel of Grace and not works.

iggy

369   Rob    
April 13th, 2009 at 9:53 pm

iggy Says: 361

James 4-6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: “God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.”

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Iggy you need to read your bible this is Jesus speaking here mat 4:17

370   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 13th, 2009 at 10:08 pm

Yes, Rob and Jesus is speaking to you and all who are under the law…

iggy

371   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 13th, 2009 at 10:11 pm

Luke 17: 20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Rob,

I pray you come to know this as a reality in you… that the Kingdom of God is within you… as Jesus spoke…

iggy

372   nc    
April 13th, 2009 at 10:17 pm

ooooh, dueling bible verses!

Yay!

373   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 13th, 2009 at 10:25 pm

Yeah, and when I dip into the KJV you know I am on a rampage! :lol:

igs

374   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 13th, 2009 at 10:26 pm

And now for the Scriptural pièce de résistance –

There was a man from the land of Uz whose name was Job.

Game – Set – Match. :cool:

375   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 13th, 2009 at 10:34 pm

Chris this sounds like alot of Rob Bell heresy that wants to change the gospel to fit the culture .

Wow,

“Rob” is pretty much an ad homenim nutcase, to boot. I was familiar with the concept of the kingdom long before I was familiar with Rob Bell. There have been a number of discoveries in the 20th and 21st centuries, since the formation of the modern State of Israel (Dead Sea Scrolls, etc.) which have given us a good deal of insight into the discussions of the first century and what was understood by the phrase “the kingdom of God” (or “the kingdom of Heaven” in Matthew, since Matthew’s audience used “Heaven” to replace “God” in light of the third commandment). Your complete lack of any intelligent hermeneutic at least explains why you’re so off base on this, and pretty much everything else.

I can cite a slew of Christian Hebrew scholars who have done in-depth analysis of scripture on all the usages of “the kingdom of God”, and it is inescapable that the kingdom is both now (in part) and to come (in perfection). Your exegesis that conflates the kingdom and heaven is just as ludicrous and messy as the rest of your nuttery.

As for alcohol? You have no clue. As a chemist/chemical engineer, I can tell you that unpasteurized grape juice (noting that pasteurized grape juice was a 20th century invention) begins fermenting immediately upon its separation from the grapes. Immediately. There is absolutely no such thing as “non-alcoholic wine” prior to the invention of pasteurization. You’re now talking about a physical impossibility invented by well-meaning, but legalistic, Christians seeking to create fences around the law, just like their predecessors, the Pharisees.

(Personally, I don’t drink for a number of reasons – but it being a sin isn’t one of them, because apart from drunkenness, it is not. )

As for street preaching (i.e. being jerks to try and make converts) vs. making disciples, you’ve still not answered my previous observations. You keep (attempting to) make judgments of the state of people’s salvation, a responsibility not given to you and completely outside the realm of your discernment with the scant evidence available, which pretty much decries your (lack of) qualifications.

Zeal you might have, but any real grasp of Christian theology, you have not.

Peace.

376   M.G.    
April 13th, 2009 at 11:11 pm

To quote Rick Frueh, circa 2009

Game-Set-Match.

377   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 13th, 2009 at 11:56 pm

Rob,

My sincerest prayer for you is this… that you “grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.”

Peace!

iggy

378   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 14th, 2009 at 6:55 am

The Jesus didn’t drink fermented wine issue is so yesterday’s news. It makes me think that Rob is young. Chris L’s chemical analysis of fermentation was great. I wonder if he can also provide instructions for a meth lab – just for my own information. :cool:

In the final analysis, I would be much more generous in my appreciation for PBs open air preaching if it was not for the stupidity and self righteousness of its content, and the obvious “look how bold we are and how sinful they are” self promoting publicity.

Next we will have a prayer closet ministry complete with videos showing preachers calling down fire on sinners. I can’t wait!!

379   Eugene    http://eugeneroberts.wordpress.com
April 14th, 2009 at 8:45 am

Rob,
The people at this blog have a very high view of Scripture and to commit contextomy, like you have done in this thread, to the Bible is frowned upon here. When you read the Bible with a preconceived idea you tend to skip over the parts that don’t fit your idea. We are all prone to this and that is why it is good to debate with a humble heart always knowing you just might be wrong. You supply us with an excellent example of selective reading and quoting with the alcohol issue. If your view is that it is unacceptable under all circumstances you tend to read and quote those parts of Scripture that support your view but skip over Scriptures like MG quoted or the following one:

Deuteronomy 14:22 “You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. 23And before the LORD your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always. 24And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the LORD your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the LORD your God chooses, to set his name there, 25then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the LORD your God chooses 26and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.
(ESV)

380   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
April 14th, 2009 at 8:59 am

Good morning everyone.

381   Eugene    http://eugeneroberts.wordpress.com
April 14th, 2009 at 9:28 am

The people at this blog have a very high view of Scripture…

On second thought I’m not so sure about Rick. :roll:

382   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
April 14th, 2009 at 1:04 pm

The people at this blog have a very high view of Scripture…

Personally, I keep my Bibles on the second floor book case rather than the first.

383   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 14th, 2009 at 1:14 pm

Just for your information, Gene, I have my devotions on copies of the Dead Sea Scrolls. :cool:

384   Rob    
April 14th, 2009 at 3:14 pm

The problem i have that there is alot of evangelism that glorifys the flesh not God . The preaching on the video is the way Paul Jesus and John the baptist preached. What i saw going on in springbreak was unbiblical taking spring breakers to bars in there van so they could get intoxicated . That Was horrible.
Now i see why america is the way it is . Since Jesus died on the cross. Now we have a license to sin .
You dont have to change your life God will accept you to way you always lived . You can get drunk . Jesus loves you .
Let not forget Jesus turn water into wine so we can get drunk .The word repent is a bad word in emergent church circles .
Thou shall not judge .

Maybe if all the apostle witness that way they would of never died a brutal death . Expecially John the baptist he should of never told king herod that he was committing adultery .
Thou shall not judge John the baptist . You need to show more love John the baptist . Jesus is love, John the baptist . Sorry that is the false Jesus that most of you created in your own mind to appeal to the flesh when you witness. That Jesus couldnt save anyone . THIS IS THE PROBLEM

2Cr 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].

You are preaching different Jesus and a different gospel then the bible .

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Matthew 23:13-36: In this passage Jesus pronounced seven woes upon the Pharisees. In this discourse Jesus used such words as “hypocrites” “blind guides” “fools” “blind men” “white?washed tombs” “serpents” “brood of vipers” and said they were “full of hypocrisy and law?lessness.” He then ended by saying “how shall you escape the sentence of hell?”

Acts 13:8-11: When Paul encountered Elymas, a magician who was keeping the proconsul from accepting the Lord, he said “You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord?”

Acts 18:28: “…for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.”

Romans 16:17-18: “Now I urge you, brethren, keep you eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Jesus Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.”

This verse nails it flattering speech not telling the truth about there sin .

385   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 14th, 2009 at 3:25 pm

Rob,

You are preaching different Jesus and a different gospel then the bible .

Seriously… you say this and have never heard any of us preach or teach… yet can judge and condemn us all in such a fashion?

Now, here is the real issues… it is not that the video states people have or are sinning, but the lack of telling them that Jesus died, was buried and raised from the grave so that they may forgiveness of sins and become new creations in Christ.

Watch the video… and tell me once where they state the gospel as the Good News…

As in acts the Good News is that Jesus rose from the Grave and is Messiah… read Acts and you will find that is why the disciples were persecuted… it was not that they called others to repent… but that they preached Jesus alive and that he was and is Messiah.

So again, if anyone here is preaching a none gospel it is the weak version on the video and what you have presented here.

You stated over and over “repent or perish” but never tell anyone that we must have a relationship and new life is Christ Jesus to be saved.

iggy

386   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 14th, 2009 at 3:26 pm

“Yawn”.

Oh yea, whatever. Preach it, brother. What a prophet you are. Stunning. :roll:

387   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 14th, 2009 at 3:32 pm

I actually had my sinning license revoked… I have to attend a special class with Rob Bell to get it back…

388   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 14th, 2009 at 3:33 pm

Fire – Brimstone – sulfur – yada,yada. I’m scorched by your words. John the Baptist, Jesus, and Paul had nothing on you.

And when you pull the “different Jesus” card, wow, that was so anointed. Yep, go eat your wild locusts and feel vindicated for a job well done.

I am holding a meeting tonight for all the writers and commenters here so we can read Rob’s comments together and adjust our live accordingly. He arrived here just in time.

“Yawn”.

389   Rob    
April 14th, 2009 at 3:56 pm

Chris L Says: 375

Rob” is pretty much an ad homenim nutcase, to boot. I was familiar with the concept of the kingdom long before I was familiar with Rob Bell. There have been a number of discoveries in the 20th and 21st centuries, since the formation of the modern State of Israel (Dead Sea Scrolls, etc.) which have given us a good deal of insight into the discussions of the first century and what was understood by the phrase “the kingdom of God” (or “the kingdom of Heaven” in Matthew, since Matthew’s audience used “Heaven” to replace “God” in light of the third commandment). Your complete lack of any intelligent hermeneutic at least explains why you’re so off base on this, and pretty much everything else.

First of all you say i have lack of hermeneutic . Chris i ask you time and time show me where i have lack hermeneutic . Please state the bible verse is all i can ask .
Chris can you please tell me who is speaking here.
And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in (A)Paradise.” Luke 23:42,43. hermeneutic Chris please tell me when Jesus says you will be in paradise with me today is he talking about Hawai . When the thief on the cross says please remeber me in your kingdom . Where is Jesus kingdom Chris . John 18-36 Jesus answered, )My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.” Please pay attention Hermeneutic Chris .

I can cite a slew of Christian Hebrew scholars who have done in-depth analysis of scripture on all the usages of “the kingdom of God”, and it is inescapable that the kingdom is both now (in part) and to come (in perfection). Your exegesis that conflates the kingdom and heaven is just as ludicrous and messy as the rest of your nuttery.

Chris i quess you have to call names it is a sign of a lost debate when someone calls names . I can quote hebrew and greek scholars as well .
Please Chris this is a smoke screen i quote verse after verse supporting my position . If you cant refute the verses then stop the ad homenims it makes you look bad .

I Corinthians 15:50 “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God

390   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 14th, 2009 at 3:59 pm

The preaching on the video is the way Paul Jesus and John the baptist preached.

Really? Pictures, please.

Or, absent pictures, your frame of reference, perhaps – quotes from contemporaries – Josephus, Eusebius, Qumran scrolls, perhaps? All of the sources I’m familiar with – starting with the Bible – indicate that Jesus & Paul primarily started preaching in the Synagogues – within the context of the culture – to people who had come to debate and learn how to best follow God. It was a rather common activity, particularly in the afternoons and evenings, since most work was done before noon in an agrarian society – particularly in the heat commonplace in the Middle-East.

Now, where he was not allowed in the Synagogues, Paul went to places like the Hall of Philosophers to debate (again, to places where public speaking was welcome and expected, and where crowd were there to listen to ideas & such – kind of like us watching the evening news on TV).

You might be able to argue that Jesus did this at Caesarea Philippi, though his primary audience there were his talmidim, not the crowds around him. But still, that is the exception, not the rule.

What i saw going on in springbreak was unbiblical taking spring breakers to bars in there van so they could get intoxicated . That Was horrible.

Newsflash: Sinners sin. Full details at 11.

Now i see why america is the way it is . Since Jesus died on the cross. Now we have a license to sin . You dont have to change your life God will accept you to way you always lived . You can get drunk . Jesus loves you.

News Update: Christians sometimes fall right in and sin with their fellow sinners. And sometimes people who claim to be Christians don’t act like it at all, and may be Christian in name only. Ric Romero with the rest of the story after the break.

Let not forget Jesus turn water into wine so we can get drunk .

What?

Just because we have pointed out that drinking is not a sin does not mean that we advocate that one should drink in any/every circumstance or that getting drunk is ever OK. Just because drinking is not a sin doesn’t mean that we should abuse this freedom.

As Paul notes:
“Everything is permissible”—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible”—but not everything is constructive. Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.

Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”

If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. But if anyone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience’ sake— the other man’s conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another’s conscience? If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?

So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.

So, if I were going to apply this today, if I am spending an evening at a party with someone who believes it is a sin to drink – a weaker brother – but would be tempted to drink (against their own conscience) or to turn away from Christ if they thought me to be a hypocrite, it would be better for me not to exercise this freedom I have in Christ to drink (in moderation). However, it is up to me to read the situation, rather than to create a new law “thou shalt not drink”, and to act responsibly in accordance with the freedom granted in Christ.

The word repent is a bad word in emergent church circles.

Then you and I must deal with different ‘emergent’ folk. I know of a number of emerging church folks who believe and practice repentance, frequently. However, I suspect that they do not “repent” for things that are not sins, but might be on your list of ’sins’ (like drinking, for example). That doesn’t mean they aren’t Christians or that the do not repent. That just means that they have not raised your cultural convictions or preferences to the level of moral absolutes that must be ‘repented’ of.

Expecially John the baptist he should of never told king herod that he was committing adultery .
Thou shall not judge John the baptist . You need to show more love John the baptist . Jesus is love, John the baptist . Sorry that is the false Jesus that most of you created in your own mind to appeal to the flesh when you witness. That Jesus couldnt save anyone . THIS IS THE PROBLEM

??? The only problem I see here is the creation of a Straw Man.

What I see in many in the emerging church, and evangelical churches, doing is applying Jesus’ words:

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”

This is not turning a blind eye to sin, but approaching sin with humility, grace and mercy – and examining oneself for a sin before attacking it in others.

Are there denominations and churches that abuse this? Yes – in both directions. But not some of the most frequent targets of PB, yourself and the armichair discernmentalists (Saddleback, both Mars Hill’s, Granger, etc.)

Matthew 23:13-36: In this passage Jesus pronounced seven woes upon the Pharisees. In this discourse Jesus used such words as “hypocrites” “blind guides” “fools” “blind men” “white?washed tombs” “serpents” “brood of vipers” and said they were “full of hypocrisy and law?lessness.” He then ended by saying “how shall you escape the sentence of hell?”

Actually, this is a section that outlines behaviors that we frequently observe in modern pharisees – armchair discernmentalists -though you might want to go back and read it again, as the latter part of Matthew 23 is a pronouncement against Jerusalem and a prediction of its destruction in AD 70.

“Now I urge you, brethren, keep you eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Jesus Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.”

True – which is why we have not defended the peddlers of the health/wealth gospel, nor hyper-Calvinists, nor PastorBoy – all who err to some degree in this particular regard…

391   Bo Diaz    
April 14th, 2009 at 4:04 pm

The preaching on the video is the way Paul Jesus and John the baptist preached.

Really? Because you need to read your Bible some more if you actually believe that.

392   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 14th, 2009 at 4:04 pm

First of all you say i have lack of hermeneutic . Chris i ask you time and time show me where i have lack hermeneutic . Please state the bible verse is all i can ask .

Hmmm… a prooftext that proves prooftexting is wrong. I’m stumped on that.

Maybe you could start by following the example of the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8, by not assuming you know everything:

30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.

31″How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

393   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 14th, 2009 at 4:23 pm

First of all you say i have lack of hermeneutic . Chris i ask you time and time show me where i have lack hermeneutic . Please state the bible verse is all i can ask .

Well, I’d begin with your exegesis on the latter part of Mark, which you cited in saying I didn’t look at the full context of the Great Commission in Matthew 28.

Then, I’d go to your convoluted exegesis of drinking – particularly in ignoring all scripture which refers to it in the positive sense.

Then, I’d go to “my kingdom is not of this world”, which any first year Bible student worth his salt should be able to tell you is dealing with a world-view (Gr. kosmos) and not a physical location.

And then, I’d cite pretty much every verse where you conflate heaven with the kingdom of God.

And that’s just warming up w/o having to look back through the thread.

And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in (A)Paradise.” Luke 23:42,43. hermeneutic Chris please tell me when Jesus says you will be in paradise with me today is he talking about Hawai .

He’s speaking to the thief on the cross, and he refers to ‘paradise’ (a first-century Hebrew concept of the positive state in which you wait for God’s final judgment after death). He didn’t say “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in the kingdom of Heaven” – he specified “paradise”. And that can be gleaned with a literalist hermeneutic or a contextual hermeneutic or a literary critical hermeneutic. I’m not sure what hermeneutic you’re applying outside of eisegesis.

When the thief on the cross says please remeber me in your kingdom . Where is Jesus kingdom Chris

Did you even read the quote? The thief said “remember me when You come into Your kingdom!” NOT “remember me in your kingdom” (the first phrase denotes a state of being, but what you said denotes a physical state of location).

Secondly, Jesus, in dying, is living out the kingdom – God’s reign here and forever. His answer to the thief is that he will see him beyond the grave (which is where the thief is headed).

My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.” Please pay attention Hermeneutic Chris .

What hermeneutic are you using? Was the scripture written in Greek or English in this case (John). I’ll choose Greek. In English, it happens that our word for “world” denotes both the means by which things run and the planet. The word Jesus chooses, kosmos, denotes the way things run here, not the physical location. Most hermeneutics (which, by the way, do you even know what a hermeneutic is? Your use of it in your comment suggests you may not) can tell this w/o any knowledge of Greek, just from the context of the passage:

Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

If Jesus’ kingdom was from the systems of this world (i.e. power, influence, money, violence), his servants would fight to prevent his arrest. Did you get that? If the way his kingdom works was the way our world works, he would fight his way out. But it is not – his kingdom comes from somewhere else (the system Jesus taught, God’s reign).

This is pretty simple stuff, and I’m almost embarrassed that I’m having to explain it to you, since you’re claiming to be a preacher/teacher/evangelist.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom – it requires the Spirit and answering Jesus’ call. Paul is correct.

I’m sorry you think so little of the gospel and Jesus’ teaching on the kingdom. It’s what his entire ministry was about! But we get so caught up in who Jesus IS that we forget what he believed and taught. The kingdom is about how we are to live now, not about waiting around to be saved when we die and bringing as many with us as possible.

The gospel isn’t a call for viral marketing of fire insurance. And your antics on the Florida beaches (and here) are no more than that…

394   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 14th, 2009 at 4:26 pm

As soon as someone who I’ve only interacted with for a week says I’m preaching another Jesus that tends to shut down any communication.

395   Rob    
April 14th, 2009 at 4:54 pm

Emergent church leaders are slowly coming out of the closet on two significant Biblical issues. The first issue is the acceptance of homosexuality. Tony Campolo has been paving the way for corporate and congregational acceptance of homosexuality for some time.

Brian McLaren’s non-stand about homosexuality
Dan Kimbell’s tolerance of homosexuality
Tony Jones’ “Christian Gay Is Ok”
Rob Bell’s Undeclared position on homosexuality

396   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 14th, 2009 at 5:02 pm

We’re waiting with bated breath… What the second “significant Biblical issue”?

397   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
April 14th, 2009 at 5:26 pm

Tony Campolo has been paving the way for corporate and congregational acceptance of homosexuality for some time.

Um…I really don’t think you know what or who your talking about.

398   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
April 14th, 2009 at 5:29 pm

Brian McLaren’s non-stand about homosexuality
Dan Kimbell’s tolerance of homosexuality
Tony Jones’ “Christian Gay Is Ok”
Rob Bell’s Undeclared position on homosexuality

Since your new around here I might direct you to our previous ad nauseum discussions about those men and homosexuality.

399   Joe    
April 14th, 2009 at 5:37 pm

First of all you say i have lack of hermeneutic . Chris i ask you time and time show me where i have lack hermeneutic . Please state the bible verse is all i can ask .

Well, have you cut your eye out or your finger off? When you meet someone at church do you kiss them?

400   Rob    
April 14th, 2009 at 5:56 pm

chris says

He’s speaking to the thief on the cross, and he refers to ‘paradise’ (

a first-century Hebrew concept of the positive state in which you wait for God’s final judgment after death).

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter” (2 Corinthians 12:2-4 KJV)
The same greek word is used here in all three verses paradeisos.

a first-century Hebrew concept of the positive state in which you wait for God’s final judgment after death)

This is terrible Isogesis Chris .
Once again the new testament was written in Greek stop telling me what something mean in hebrew i have not quoted the old testament . In 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 Paul was caught up to paradise . But if i follow your thinking then Paul is saying he was caught up first-century Hebrew concept of the positive state in which you wait for God’s final judgment after death. and he heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Chris you are way off here you are adding your interpertation to the text which is messy and horrible isogesis
. Another verse here I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Gods final judgement is in the paradise of God . Once again Chris you are way off here as well.

He didn’t say “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in the kingdom of Heaven” – he specified “paradise”. And that can be gleaned with a literalist hermeneutic or a contextual hermeneutic or a literary critical hermeneutic. I’m not sure what hermeneutic you’re applying outside of eisegesis.

Chris i never said he said the kingdom of God but i read in context Chris that is Exogesis .

Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Where is thy kingdom ? Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”John 18-36

If Jesus’ kingdom was from the systems of this world (i.e. power, influence, money, violence), his servants would fight to prevent his arrest. Did you get that? If the way his kingdom works was the way our world works, he would fight his way out. But it is not – his kingdom comes from somewhere else (the system Jesus taught, God’s reign).

This is terrible isogesis once again Chris i am embarrassed of how you handle the word of God . once again Jesus says Jhn 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Did you get that Chris Jesus is clearly saying i am not of this world his kingdom is not of this world as well .
The bible says satan is the God of this world 2Cr 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Did you get that Chris Jesus says he is not of this world his kingdom is not of this world .
The bible says satan is the God of this world that mean the world is satans kingdom .
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me . The kingdom of this world is satan .
The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,” (Rom. 14:17). It is a future kingdom where full ruler-ship in the actual presence of the king Jesus will occur when He returns to earth.

Chris you need to read this verse

We have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. — NIV 2 Corinthians 4:2

401   Paul C    http://www.themidnightcry.com
April 14th, 2009 at 6:04 pm

Chris L: He’s speaking to the thief on the cross, and he refers to ‘paradise’ (a first-century Hebrew concept of the positive state in which you wait for God’s final judgment after death).

What was Paul referring to when he said he was caught up to “paradise” (2 Cor 12)? (not trying to engage in the back-and-forth underway, but looking for clarity on this specific comment).

402   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 14th, 2009 at 6:05 pm

“When you meet someone at church do you kiss them?”

It depends. :cool:

403   Paul C    http://www.themidnightcry.com
April 14th, 2009 at 6:08 pm

Rob, you are also incorrect in your interpretation of the thief on the cross as he didn’t go to heaven when he died.

404   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
April 14th, 2009 at 6:58 pm

Rob,
What you are espousing is pretty much full-blown Gnosticism. The Kingdom of God is both physical and spiritual, and in fact in the Jewish worldview, the spiritual couldn’t really exist apart from the physical.

Chris is exactly right in his explanation of the word “world”. It’s something that Christian theologians would pretty much universally agree on (apart from maybe Bart Ehrman). Satan is the king of this world, because the systems and institutions of the world operate by the principles of his kingdom, not the kingdom of God.

The Kingdom of God is basically anywhere the will of God is done – it’s where He reigns, and where His people carry out His work. It’s not physical in the sense that there will be physical power structures on earth, but it is physical in the sense that its effects can be seen.

You simply have a lot to learn, and I agree with Chris. This is almost to the point of embarrassment.

405   Joe    
April 14th, 2009 at 8:17 pm

Guys,
I have heard that we should never wrestle with a pig, the only result is that we will get muddy.
Time to let this one go. We’re all just getting muddy.

406   Rob    
April 14th, 2009 at 10:18 pm

397 chris says

Um…I really don’t think you know what or who your talking about.

Campolo claims that homosexual orientation is inborn in many or most cases, and refers to “evangelical homosexuality.” He has related how two homosexual men “solved their problems of loneliness” by living in a celibate “covenant” relationship “in all love and tenderness.” He even makes the blasphemous claim that Christians will have difficulty finding any Biblical condemnation of romantic feelings between persons of the same sex (cf. Rom. 1:18ff)!! (Reported in the 4/1/91, Calvary Contender; and in a 2/7/94, ACCC report on the 1994 NRB Convention.)

407   Rob    
April 14th, 2009 at 10:19 pm

In his 1988 book, 20 Hot Potatoes Christians Are Afraid To Touch, Campolo also claims that though he personally thinks that homosexual behavior is contrary to the will of God (p. 115), Scripture does not universally condemn it. He adds that homosexual orientation is not a matter of choice, but is inborn (pp. 112-113), and that masturbation is an acceptable way for Christians to release pent-up sexual energies (pp. 63-64). The fact is that Tony Campolo, and especially his wife Peggy, are activists in homosexual causes. (See an interview with Peggy Campolo in the 3/94 issue of The Lofton Letter; in the Summer of 1993, Peggy Campolo reduced her involvement in her husband’s office in order to be more active in the cause of “social justice” for lesbians and homosexual men.) [Peggy Campolo has also said: "We both believe that homosexual orientations are not chosen any more than heterosexual orientations are chosen. ... homosexuals are entitled to the same rights and privileges I claim for myself, including being able to marry legally and in the sight of the church ..." (Emphasis added.) [Peggy Campolo also recently spoke out in support of a new homosexual American Baptist Church that is starting in the Philadelphia area. The church, called Fusion Baptist Church, held its inaugural service on 2/2/03. Peggy Campolo is a national leader of the Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists, which urges American Baptist congregations to be supportive of homosexuals. (Source: 2/14/03, FBIS.) ]

408   Bo Diaz    
April 14th, 2009 at 10:29 pm

Rob,
Produce a single scripture that has anything to say about homosexuality being in-born or otherwise.

409   Bo Diaz    
April 14th, 2009 at 10:31 pm

Also, try using a source other than an ultra-fundamentalist rag that ceased publication in 2005.

410   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
April 14th, 2009 at 10:43 pm

You know I had a long post refuting Rob… but really he has so much junk here… it is just not worth sifting through the lies and accumulated slanderous accusations he has compiled…

Rob, say hi to Sasquatch, the aliens, the tooth fairy and all the other imaginary characters in your world.

The Illuminati will take over the world, but God is still in control!

Watch out for the Nephilim while you ride the painted unicorns across the rainbows…

Say hi to David Icke and Alex Jones for us… and keep clear of that Reptilian race… their a little mean!

Hope the best for you.

iggy

411   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 14th, 2009 at 11:17 pm

Rob Bell’s Undeclared position on homosexuality

FYI – here’s my comment on this from a couple days ago.

We’re not going down this off-topic road on this thread, either.

Rob – I suggest you choose another avenue, as we’re pretty much retreading this issue (use the “search” function above), and this thread will not be any further derailed down this avenue. If you persist, you will be moderated.

-this goes for everyone else here, as well…
______________________

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter” (2 Corinthians 12:2-4 KJV)
The same greek word is used here in all three verses paradeisos.

the “third heaven” is part of first-century cosmology.

In it, there are three spheres – beneath the earth (the “first heaven” – Sheol/Hades/Death), on the earth (the “second heaven” – the kingdom of the air, where we reside), and the ‘heavens’ – on which the stars are located on the outer sphere – this is the “third heaven” to which Paul was taken – where he was around the throne with the angels & spirits. God, though, dwells “beyond the veil” (as symbolized in the Temple, where the veil was dark purple and covered with the constellations, representing the stars on the sphere of the heavens)…

Once again the new testament was written in Greek stop telling me what something mean in hebrew i have not quoted the old testament .

Hebrew is not just a language – it is a culture – in specific, the culture of first-century Palestine, where Jesus, Paul and the disciples were from. Additionally, it was most likely the original language of the synoptic gospels and the common language in Palestine.

In 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 Paul was caught up to paradise . But if i follow your thinking then Paul is saying he was caught up first-century Hebrew concept of the positive state in which you wait for God’s final judgment after death. and he heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Chris you are way off here you are adding your interpertation(sic) to the text which is messy and horrible isogesis(sic)

It’s not eisegesis. If you wanted (and had you quoted the ‘third heaven’ passage, I could have given you the cosmology rather than shorthanding it to ‘a positive state’…again, though, it’s understanding the first century culture instead of making up it as you go along, for your own eisegesis.

Another verse here I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Gods final judgement (sic) is in the paradise of God . Once again Chris you are way off here as well.

A different author, I would first note, Rob. Secondly, John is writing to Ephesus, where he mirrors their language and juxtaposes worship of Artemis (Diana) with worship of God. The primary feature of Ephesus was the Temple of Artemis (one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World). In the center of the Temple of Artemis was a large garden (called the “paradise of Aretmis”), and in this garden was (supposedly) a rock that fell from the sky and a huge linden tree (actually two intertwined linden trees) called “The Tree of Life”. John uses this image, though he uses the word xulon (instead of dendron) for “tree”, signifying that the Tree of Life is the cross. So, just because the word ‘paradise’ is used, you might want to go beyond a simple English concordance to make your point.

Chris i never said he said the kingdom of God but i read in context Chris that is Exogesis (sic) .

If it was exegesis, it was pretty poor…

Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Where is thy kingdom ? Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”John 18-36

[Side-note: why is it the true kool-aid drinkers always seem to quote the KJV?]
First off, the thief refers to Jesus’ “kingdom” (not “the kingdom of God”). Secondly, we have no indication that the thief had any knowledge of Jesus’ teaching or the rabbinic teaching regarding the kingdom.

Thirdly, you’re now mixing contexts – moving from the thief on the cross in Luke to Jesus before Pilate in John. And I’ve already given you a proper exegesis of the Pilate passage (search for ‘kosmos’ on this page to find it).

A book I just finished this past week (from the folks at the Jerusalem School of Synoptic Research)describes this pretty succinctly:

But there is yet more to be learned by looking beyond the English translation and examining the Hebrew phrase that Jesus probably used: malkhut shamayim, an idiom common in rabbinic teaching in his day. Malkhut, which we translate as “kingdom” sounds [to us] like a place or a government of some sort. but it really refers to an ancient sense of the word that describes the actions and dominion of a king – his reign and authority, and anyone who is under his authority. Shamayim is Hebrew for “sky” or “heavens”. “Heaven,” in the ‘kingdom of heaven’ always refers to God, and not a place.

In other words, a simple way of translating “kingdom of God” or “kingdom of heaven” would be God’s reign or how God reigns, or those whom God reigns over. [...]

This can help us understand the Lord’s Prayer. To many of us “thy kingdom come” sounds as if it’s about Christ’s second coming. But the Alenu [from which this prayer comes] shows us what it’s really about – that all the world will come to worship God. The first three lines of the Lord’s Prayer, then, voice our desire for God to expand his loving reign, bringing all people into relationship with him so that they might revere him and do his will. In effect, we are praying for the gospel to go forth. Instead of passively waiting for Jesus to return, we are asking God’s help in making disciples of all nations. [...]

One thing might confuse you – the English word “near” can be misleading, because it sounds as though Jesus is telling his friends that the kingdom is “close, but not quite.” But it is likely that Jesus was using the Hebrew verb karav, which means intimately close. The prophet Isaiah, for instance, “came near” (karav) his wife in Isaiah 8:3, and she conceived a son. How much nearer could the prophet get than that?

And then you write:

If Jesus’ kingdom was from the systems of this world (i.e. power, influence, money, violence), his servants would fight to prevent his arrest. Did you get that? If the way his kingdom works was the way our world works, he would fight his way out. But it is not – his kingdom comes from somewhere else (the system Jesus taught, God’s reign).

This is terrible isogesis once again Chris i am embarrassed of how you handle the word of God

And I’m getting pretty embarrassed at how you’re handling the English language, let alone the Word of God. There is no eisegesis on my part here.

John 8:23 – first off, Jesus isn’t talking about his kingdom – he’s talking about his person. Secondly, he’s using world (kosmos) in terms of “systems” again – to expand upon below/above.

2 Cor 4:4 – Since you chose the KJV, you have missed a key difference here. The word “world” in the KJV is translated “age” in other translations. It is not kosmos, but aion.

Matt 4:8 – Satan uses the word kosmos (which, if you check the Greek interlinear is even translated “system” not “land” or “world”) . You’re basically proving my point for me. So thank you!

You also do this by quoting Paul from Romans:
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
Yes – exactly – the kingdom is NOT a place – it is a state of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Rob, where is the Holy Spirit? (Hint – read Acts 2 and beyond.)

Chris you need to read this verse

We have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. — NIV 2 Corinthians 4:2

I agree. Perhaps you ought to study this (though I would pick a whole slew of other places to start, beginning in the gospels)…

412   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 15th, 2009 at 1:44 am

I find the parsing over:

kingdom of God
kingdom of heaven
eternal life
paradise
heaven
Abraham’s bosom

and other places to be tedious. Suffice to say if you believe in Jesus you go to an unimaginably good place with Him, if not, you go to an unimaginably bad place without Him.

413   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
April 15th, 2009 at 7:59 am

*sigh*
While fasting from this sort of stuff since Ash Wednesday I was looking forward to diving back in come Easter Sunday. Since Sunday I have been lurking, reading over bits and pieces, trying to get “in the mood,” if you will. But I can’t. Arguing with strangers like Rob or template or any number of ADM’s just feels like idle chatter to me anymore. Someone said above if you wrestle with a pig you get muddy.

Being on vacation from this sort of fruitless banter has shown me that you can’t convince someone by typing back and forth words. Community is not possible via cyberspace – at least not the kind of community that engenders spiritual growth, trust and discipleship. Arguing with the likes of Rob and others is nothing but a waste of time – time that could be spent in countless other ways, doing countless other things that might convince those ready to be convinced.

peace.
Chad

414   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 15th, 2009 at 8:30 am

“doing countless other things that might convince those ready to be convinced.”

Yep.

415   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 15th, 2009 at 10:25 am

Arguing with the likes of Rob and others is nothing but a waste of time – time that could be spent in countless other ways, doing countless other things that might convince those ready to be convinced.

Chad – I hear you, to a point.

As the owner of this domain, I see the traffic stats, though (and get a number of the behind-the-scenes emails). Over the past several months, our readership has been steadily increasing, where we’ve probably got 100-150 non-commenting readers/commenter (which is actually mid-range in blog-dom). So, while I may not convince Rob of anything, ever, there is a likelihood that I may convince someone with the same sorts of questions, but an open mind to being convinced…

416   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 15th, 2009 at 10:27 am

My mind is closed. :cool:

417   room2blog    http://room2blog.wordpress.com
April 15th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

Rick Frueh: Suffice to say if you believe in Jesus you go to an unimaginably good place with Him, if not, you go to an unimaginably bad place without Him.

Unless you’re Orthodox (or Brian McLaren): if you don’t believe you will still be with Him (God, not McLaren), but it will be incredibly awful. Imagine all that goodness and justice piercing through the hate and corruption one is simply not willing to let go. Must be awful beyond measurable.

418   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 15th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

My comment #412 was on moderation for many hours. If that is how I am treated, let me say you guys are no better than Phelps. The hatred here is palpable and your hypocrisy is monumental.

If I am put on moderation once more, I will call the IP and have this liberal hate-site shut down.

419   Joe    
April 15th, 2009 at 1:05 pm

#418 Probably because of the word bosom

420   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 15th, 2009 at 1:10 pm

There are times when Joe is cutting edge funny. :lol:

421   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 15th, 2009 at 1:15 pm

Rick, your comment #412 was in the spam folder, not the moderation folder. I’m not sure why, but I rescued it…

422   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
April 15th, 2009 at 1:20 pm

Fine, I am working on forgiveness. Just remember, verbosity is my life. :cool:

423   Chad    http://www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
April 15th, 2009 at 1:51 pm

Chris L,
I pray you are right.

In my experience, the emails I get from lurkers are of the “thanks for standing up for truth” or “thanks for sticking it to those idiots” variety. That is to say, most people are just being confirmed in what they already think/believe and are grateful to hear it put in wise, flowery, witty vignettes that they can then use on their friends…or enemies.

While I am not opposed to speaking out or sharing what God has placed upon our hearts (I still intend to blog) I just can’t justify, anymore, the time spent in arguing back and forth with a person for 400 or 600 or 1000+ comments, as I have been guilty of in the past. I have to ask myself: Would Christ be glued to a keyboard arguing over doctrine and methods? I am doubtful. Rather, he might tell me that if I dislike the soap box preachers shouting condemnation and hell then stand near by them and speak a word of grace and love. If I think homosexuals are God’s enemies and therefore mine than pray for them and love them even more. If I think PB or others are crazy for emphasizing speaking over doing than I should go out and plant a garden or volunteer in a soup kitchen.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I have come to see just how disembodied this sort of theological rankling really is. It is devoid of context. Frankly, I cannot say whether it is wrong to do what the person in the OP did. I don’t know them, wasn’t there and in the end, who am I to judge? There may indeed be times and seasons for such a witness. There may not be. But I wasn’t there. And if I were there, I would hope I would avoid using “rights” language to make my case. As Christians, the moment we start talking about our “rights” is the moment, IMO, that we have ceased keeping the conversation in a truly Christian context.

In the end, I wonder if it is the best use of time to argue at such great lengths with people whom we have never shared Supper with and probably never will (not this side of heaven, at least). What sort of message or witness would it send if everyone just told Rob and those who consistently dissent and complain and argue and flaunt their self-righteous indignation: “Well, you might be right about that. Thank you for sharing your opinion. At least we agree on the most important thing: Jesus is Lord.”

peace.

424   Rob    
April 18th, 2009 at 9:33 pm

We’re not going down this off-topic road on this thread, either.
chris 411 says

Rob – I suggest you choose another avenue, as we’re pretty much retreading this issue (use the “search” function above), and this thread will not be any further derailed down this avenue. If you persist, you will be moderated.

-this goes for everyone else here, as well…

Chris i am just stating the facts .You can do what you want to . But the facts are you cant refute the reference that i quote from Tony on homosexuality .

the “third heaven” is part of first-century cosmology.

In it, there are three spheres – beneath the earth (the “first heaven” – Sheol/Hades/Death), on the earth (the “second heaven” – the kingdom of the air, where we reside), and the ‘heavens’ – on which the stars are located on the outer sphere – this is the “third heaven” to which Paul was taken – where he was around the throne with the angels & spirits. God, though, dwells “beyond the veil” (as symbolized in the Temple, where the veil was dark purple and covered with the constellations, representing the stars on the sphere of the heavens)…

Notice one thing Chris no bible verse to back up anything all . Time and time Chris your opinion means nothing to me . You are throwing anything out there you can to get people to bite . Wont work with me Chris i am a berean .
What does it mean when the Bible refers to the Third Heaven?
The First Heaven: Earth Atmosphere

Deut. 11:17 — Then the LORD’s anger will burn against you, and he will shut the heavens so that it will not rain and the ground will yield no produce….
Deut. 28:12 — The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands.
Judges 5:4 — “O LORD, when you went out from Seir, when you marched from the land of Edom, the earth shook, the heavens poured, the clouds poured down water.
Acts 14:17 — “Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons;…
The Second Heaven: Outer Space

Psalm 19:4,6 — In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun… It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other;…
Jeremiah 8:2 — They will be exposed to the sun and the moon and all the stars of the heavens which they have loved and served….
Isaiah 13:10 — The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light.
The Third Heaven: God’s Dwelling Place

1 Kings 8:30 (phrase repeated numerous times in following verses) — then hear from heaven, your dwelling place…
Psalm 2:4 — The One enthroned in heaven laughs; The LORD scoffs at them.
Matthew 5:16 — In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
The highest heaven, the third heaven is indicated by the reference to the Throne of God being the highest heaven:

1 Kings 8:27 — “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you.
Deut. 10:14 — To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it.
I ask you time and time to supporting everything you refute with bible verse . If you dont want to do it Chris then i cant go on . We can argue all day and night who is right and wrong . I will only accept the word of God as final authority not me or you .

Hebrew is not just a language – it is a culture – in specific, the culture of first-century Palestine, where Jesus, Paul and the disciples were from. Additionally, it was most likely the original language of the synoptic gospels and the common language in Palestine.

Palestinian Jews was Aramaic (a Semitic language closely related to Hebrew).
The synoptic gospel where never in hebrew that is a fallacy on your part .
lets take a look at the earliest manuscripte found
Lukan Papyrus:

“The Lukan papyrus, situated in a library in Paris has been dated to the late 1st century or early 2nd century, so it predates the John papyrus by 20-30 years (Time April 26, 1996, pg.8). But of more importance are the manuscript findings of Mark and Matthew! New research which has now been uncovered by Dr. Carsten Thiede, and is published in his newly released book on the subject, the Jesus Papyrus mentions a fragment from the book of Mark found among the Qumran scrolls (fragment 7Q5) showing that it was written sometime before 68 AD It is important to remember that Christ died in 33 AD, so this manuscript could have been written, at the latest, within 35 years of His death; possibly earlier, and thus during the time that the eyewitnesses to that event were still alive!”
We know that Jesus preached in Aramaic, but one thing must be stated. The Jews new Aramaic but however, Greek was also a widespoken language and replaced Aramaic around Jesus time!!

“… Just as the Jews had abandoned their native Hebrew tongue for Aramaic in the Near East, so they abandoned the Aramaic in favor of Greek in such Hellenistic centers as Alexandria, Egypt. During the campaigns of Alexander the Great, the Jews were shown considerable favor. In fact, Alexander was sympathetic towards the Jews as a result of their policies toward him in the siege of Tyre (322 B.C.). He has even reported to have traveled to Jerusalem to do homage to their God. As he conquered new lands, he built new cities, which frequently had Jewish inhabitants, and frequently named them Alexandria.
Biblical Manuscripts: (note: these are individual manuscripts):

Magdalene Ms (Matthew 26) 1st century 50-60 AD coexistent

John Rylands (John) 90 AD 130 AD 40 years

Bodmer Papyrus II (John) 90 AD 150-200 AD 60-110 years

Chester Beatty Papyri (NT) 1st cen. 200 AD 150 years

Diatessaron by Tatian (Gospels) 1st cen. 200 AD 150 years

Codex Vaticanus (Bible) 1st cen. 325-350 AD 275-300 years

Codex Sinaiticus (Bible) 1st cen. 350 AD 300 years

Codex Alexandrinus (Bible) 1st cen. 400 AD 350 years

Total New Testament manuscripts = 5,300 Greek MSS, 10,000 Latin Vulgates, 9,300 others = 24,000 copies. Total MSS compiled prior to 600 AD = 230. Some of the most important MSS include:
The New Testament, however, was written in Greek. This seems strange, since you might think it would be either Hebrew or Aramaic. However, Greek was the language of scholarship during the years of the composition of the New Testament from 50 to 100 AD. The fact is that many Jews could not even read Hebrew anymore, and this disturbed the Jewish leaders a lot! So, around 300 BC a translation of the Old Testament from Hebrew into Greek was undertaken, and it was completed around 200 BC. Gradually this Greek translation of the Old Testament, called the Septuagint, was widely accepted and was even used in many synagogues. It also became a wonderful missionary tool for the early Christians, for now the Greeks could read God’s Word in their own tongue.

So the New Testament authors wrote in Greek. They did not, however, use really high-class or classical Greek, but a very common and everyday type of Greek. For many years some scholars ridiculed the Greek of the New Testament because many of its words were strange to those who read the writings of the great Greek classical authors such as Plato and Aristotle. But later many records were uncovered of ordinary people, and amazingly there were the same common terms used in everyday speech! The ridicule dried up accordingly.

The earliest copies of parts of the Hebrew Old Testament were discovered in 1947. They are part of the famous Dead Sea Scrolls and actually date back to the first century BC. Even though they are at least 900 years older than any parts of the Bible we had before this, they are not the originals. They are copies. The originals have all been lost or destroyed. But we are not at all doubtful that we may not have the original text. Copying by scribes was done with great care in those days and because the text was regarded as sacred, the copyists were extremely painstaking. Today some 5000 hand-copied documents exist of all or part of the Bible, and they agree in 98% of the text! No other ancient writing has this amount of underlying support with such amazing agreement as to the text.

Yes, we do have what God wanted us to have! By way of translation, we now have His revelation in our own language and in 2300 other languages, too. Today we have the very Bible that comes to us from the three languages used in the original. Truly we can say, “God speaks my language, too!”

A different author, I would first note, Rob. Secondly, John is writing to Ephesus, where he mirrors their language and juxtaposes worship of Artemis (Diana) with worship of God. The primary feature of Ephesus was the Temple of Artemis (one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World). In the center of the Temple of Artemis was a large garden (called the “paradise of Aretmis”), and in this garden was (supposedly) a rock that fell from the sky and a huge linden tree (actually two intertwined linden trees) called “The Tree of Life”. John uses this image, though he uses the word xulon (instead of dendron) for “tree”, signifying that the Tree of Life is the cross. So, just because the word ‘paradise’ is used, you might want to go beyond a simple English concordance to make your point.

ANOTHER OPINION FROM CHRIS NO FACTS TO BACK IT UP.
REV 2-7 To him that over comes i will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in paradise . So if i follow your interpertation here it would have to say To him that over comes i will grant to eat of the cross. . That is Horrible eisegesis. . Now you getting into works based . It sounds like you saying who overcomes get to eat of the cross . Rom 3:11, “no one seeks God.” . Romans 8-8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.So for your erroneous interpertation of Rev 2-7 saying we will not eat of the cross if we dont overcome is not biblical . We are saved through Gods grace there is nothing we can do to overcome . God has to do that work in is us . And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith…” Galatians 3:8 Chris you really you need to look at what you are copying and paste in the comment box . Your long lengtly post are a smoke screen far as i am concern .

Side-note: why is it the true kool-aid drinkers always seem to quote the KJV?]
First off, the thief refers to Jesus’ “kingdom” (not “the kingdom of God”). Secondly, we have no indication that the thief had any knowledge of Jesus’ teaching or the rabbinic teaching regarding the kingdom

. Are you saying he had no clue . When he said today you will be in paradise. Once again your opinion is way off here . Where is Jesus kingdom ?
Once again Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world.” John 18:36 the greek word is kosmos which means the world, the universethe circle of the earth, the earth the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family.

Thirdly, you’re now mixing contexts – moving from the thief on the cross in Luke to Jesus before Pilate in John. And I’ve already given you a proper exegesis of the Pilate passage (search for ‘kosmos’ on this page to find it).

Scripture always back up scripture i read in context. Once again Chris you gave me opinion i gave you scripture after scripture to back it up .

John 8:23 – first off, Jesus isn’t talking about his kingdom – he’s talking about his person. Secondly, he’s using world (kosmos) in terms of “systems” again – to expand upon below/above.

Once again you are way off here read the chapter in context .
Jhn 8:22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. Chris he is telling the Jews something here Chris he is telling the Jews they cant come where he is going . next verse
Jhn 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. once again Chris the world in the greek word is kosmos which means the world, the universethe circle of the earth, the earth the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family. The next verse Jesus says if you dont believe that I am you will die in your sins . If you read in context Chris Jesus is telling the Jews i am not of this world if you dont believe that i am God you will die in your sins . Stop looking at everything with Tony campolo eyes read the bible in context is my prayer.

2 Cor 4:4 – Since you chose the KJV, you have missed a key difference here. The word “world” in the KJV is translated “age” in other translations. It is not kosmos, but aion.

Nice try Chris the word ai?n means the worlds, universe
it could also mean age as well but if you read in context it is talking about ai?n meaning universe .Strong’s G165 – ai?n

Matt 4:8 – Satan uses the word kosmos (which, if you check the Greek interlinear is even translated “system” not “land” or “world”) . You’re basically proving my point for me. So thank you!

Once again Chris you are only trying prove your point if you read in context .
Chris the world in the greek word is kosmos which means the world, the universethe circle of the earth, the earth the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family.Strong’s G2889 – kosmos Greek lexicon tell me it can mean universe if you read in context that it is exactly saying .
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the universe , and the glory of them; .
I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me. I pray for them. I do not pray for the world…” John 17:6-9.

Chris Jesus is saying he does not pray for this world what is going on here .Jesus doesnt pray for this world .
The greek word there as well is kosmos it means universe .
You also do this by quoting Paul from Romans:
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,

Yes – exactly – the kingdom is NOT a place – it is a state of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Rob, where is the Holy Spirit? (Hint – read Acts 2 and beyond.)

Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.” John 17:11-18

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body….” Philippians 3:20
Where is Jesus right now . let me give you a hint read Heb 10:12.

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’” Matthew 7:21-23

“For many are called, but few chosen.” Matthew 20:16

“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

“…no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.” Ephesians 5:5-7

“…the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19-21

“I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:19-20

Jesus said, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God! For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. And those who heard it said, ‘Who then can be saved?’ But He said, ‘The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.’” Luke 18:24-26

“‘Hear this now, O foolish people, without understanding,
Who have eyes and see not, and who have ears and hear not:
Do you not fear Me?’ says the Lord. ‘Will you not tremble at My presence?” Jeremiah 5:21-22

“No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.” Luke 9:62

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Thirdly, you’re now mixing contexts – moving from the thief on the cross in Luke to Jesus before Pilate in John. And I’ve already given you a proper exegesis of the Pilate passage (search for ‘kosmos’ on this page to find it).A book I just finished this past week (from the folks at the Jerusalem School of Synoptic Research)describes this pretty succinctly:
Chris your comment about the kool aid i will ignore .
First Corinthians 13:4-5 says, “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.”

425   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
April 18th, 2009 at 9:37 pm

Amen, Rob.

426   Joe    
April 18th, 2009 at 10:15 pm

wow.
I want they guy to be ignored but that is impressive. I mean, that’s a lot of writing.

427   Neil    
April 18th, 2009 at 10:26 pm

This is the problem i have Chris you need to read the bible stop coming up with stuff that is not biblical . – Rob

Look Rob, we all read our Bibles… assuming someone does not because they come to different conclusions is petty.

428   Neil    
April 18th, 2009 at 10:42 pm

#326.
Wow, at this point why carry on with this guy? – Joe

That is an amazing use of Scripture… I agree. Yet it is consistent with the need to condemn as demonstrated by the obsessive focus on that one girls beer.

Here being drunk was even offered as proof she was not a Christian.

Again, the greatest tragedy I saw in that tape was seeing people who would rather condemn sin than foster what very well might be the Spirit convicting her.

Instead of following-up on her comments about being a sinner, about deserving condemnation – her beer was the focus.

429   Neil    
April 18th, 2009 at 10:49 pm

Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations:

I suppose you don’t wear mixed fabric clothing, or eat shrimp, or shave either – correct?

430   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 18th, 2009 at 11:05 pm

Joe: I want they guy to be ignored but that is impressive. I mean, that’s a lot of writing.

I assume you mean ‘impressive’ by ‘a lot of writing’, because that’s pretty much all it is, Joe.

Chris i am just stating the facts .You can do what you want to . But the facts are you cant refute the reference that i quote from Tony on homosexuality.

From The Year of Living Biblically (quoting a rather liberal guy interviewing Campolo) -

“As for homosexuality, Campolo is no Ralph Blair. He doesn’t endorse gay marriage. But…at the same time, he believes it’s not a major issue on which we should waste spiritual capital.”

Notice one thing Chris no bible verse to back up anything all . Time and time Chris your opinion means nothing to me . You are throwing anything out there you can to get people to bite . Wont work with me Chris i am a berean .
What does it mean when the Bible refers to the Third Heaven?

Well, you’re not really all that much of a Berean, then, as a) the information about the cosmology in the first century is pretty widely available; b) None of the verses you cite to support your views of “the first/second/third heaven” identify them as “first/second/third”, so you have just as much direct biblical support as I do (except I don’t claim that verses which don’t support my argument support my argument…); c) All but one of the verses you cite come from ancient cosmology (the OT), not first century, post-Greek cosmology; d) The bible doesn’t outright define first-century cosmology (the same way that it doesn’t define first century scientific views, etc.) Where context exists w/in scripture, we should by all means use it, but it is not always so, because it is assumed that the hearer already understands it. Most of the time this is fine, but not always (example: w/o knowing the background of the Jewish/Samaritan blood-feud, we can’t fully appreciate Jesus’ parable of the Good Samaritan, even though we can still glean a good deal of meaning from it).

I ask you time and time to supporting everything you refute with bible verse . If you dont want to do it Chris then i cant go on . We can argue all day and night who is right and wrong . I will only accept the word of God as final authority not me or you.

I support the third heaven comment with its only mention in scripture. All of your scriptures don’t even reference the cosmology – you’ve just force-fit them into whatever you arbitrarily created.

I could also note that Satan is called the (roughly) Prince of the Air in Scripture, which indicates that he holds dominion over the systems which rule the world (the second heaven), and that Jesus, in refusing to bow down to him – by this very act – was making a claim over that dominion. (FYI – if you can’t see that I’ve just quoted at least 3-4 scriptures w/o chapter/verse, then we really do have nowhere to go, because I’m going to assume you know the Bible well enough to recognize what I’m citing. I’m not going to spoon-feed you.)

Now, I will note that you cited:
1 Kings 8:27 — “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you.
And this fits exactly with what I described to you – God cannot fit within the ‘heavens’ – He is beyond them (see Ps 139). Thus, He is beyond the Third Heaven (where spirits dwell), as described in first century cosmology.

Now, perhaps you would argue that we don’t even need to know first-century or ancient cosmology to glean more understanding from the Bible. If so, you’ve just placed yourself in the position of the Catholic church in its persecution of Galileo – because the ancient cosmology saw the earth as the center of the universe, with everything rotating around it. So, when this is referenced in Scripture, the RCC insisted that everything rotated around the earth – despite scientific evidence to the contrary. However, if you understand the ancient cosmology, you understand the context of what is being said.

And that’s just one example.

Palestinian Jews was Aramaic (a Semitic language closely related to Hebrew).
The synoptic gospel where never in hebrew that is a fallacy on your part .

Actually, this is based on pre-1948 archaeological evidence. However, there is more and more evidence that Hebrew was the primary language spoken for religious conversation in Judea, with some Aramaic. Additionally, it is becoming more obvious that the common document/oral history that fed the synoptic gospels was Hebrew, not Greek or Aramaic – because of the key underlying Hebrew idioms used. I would suggest you read Bivins & Blizzard “Understanding the Difficult Words of Jesus” for an in-depth analysis of this.

ANOTHER OPINION FROM CHRIS NO FACTS TO BACK IT UP.

I’m not going to quote 300+ pages of research in a blog post. Not my opinion – accepted, peer-reviewed research based on first-century contextual interpretation (rather than modern acontextual analysis).

REV 2-7 To him that over comes i will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in paradise . So if i follow your interpertation here it would have to say To him that over comes i will grant to eat of the cross. . That is Horrible eisegesis. .

On your part, yes.

To him that overcomes, we have an opportunity to eat of the tree of life. When you eat of a tree, you eat of its fruits – not the wood, itself. So – what was the fruit of the cross? On what festival did Jesus raise from the dead? Firstfruits. How did Jesus’ disciples see this? Jesus is the firstfruits of the resurrection.

SO – if we eat from the tree of life, which is the cross – Jesus death, burial and resurrection – we gain eternal life.

Once again Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world.” John 18:36 the greek word is kosmos which means the world, the universethe circle of the earth, the earth the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family.

Perhaps you’d best go back and study more Greek. If you go to literal translations, kosmos is “system”, not “earth”. If you can’t get that right, you might as well just give up now and keep following Pastorboy instead of Christ.

431   Neil    
April 18th, 2009 at 11:07 pm

Let not forget Jesus turn water into wine so we can get drunk.

Please to show where anyone here said getting drunk was acceptable.

Creating caricature to assassinate may be easy and fun – but it’s not helping you weak argument.