Let not forget Jesus turn water into wine so we can get drunk.

Please to show where anyone here said getting drunk was acceptable.

Creating caricature to assassinate may be easy and fun – but it’s not helping you weak argument.

Joe: I want they guy to be ignored but that is impressive. I mean, that’s a lot of writing.

I assume you mean ‘impressive’ by ‘a lot of writing’, because that’s pretty much all it is, Joe.

Chris i am just stating the facts .You can do what you want to . But the facts are you cant refute the reference that i quote from Tony on homosexuality.

From The Year of Living Biblically (quoting a rather liberal guy interviewing Campolo) -

“As for homosexuality, Campolo is no Ralph Blair. He doesn’t endorse gay marriage. But…at the same time, he believes it’s not a major issue on which we should waste spiritual capital.”

Notice one thing Chris no bible verse to back up anything all . Time and time Chris your opinion means nothing to me . You are throwing anything out there you can to get people to bite . Wont work with me Chris i am a berean .
What does it mean when the Bible refers to the Third Heaven?

Well, you’re not really all that much of a Berean, then, as a) the information about the cosmology in the first century is pretty widely available; b) None of the verses you cite to support your views of “the first/second/third heaven” identify them as “first/second/third”, so you have just as much direct biblical support as I do (except I don’t claim that verses which don’t support my argument support my argument…); c) All but one of the verses you cite come from ancient cosmology (the OT), not first century, post-Greek cosmology; d) The bible doesn’t outright define first-century cosmology (the same way that it doesn’t define first century scientific views, etc.) Where context exists w/in scripture, we should by all means use it, but it is not always so, because it is assumed that the hearer already understands it. Most of the time this is fine, but not always (example: w/o knowing the background of the Jewish/Samaritan blood-feud, we can’t fully appreciate Jesus’ parable of the Good Samaritan, even though we can still glean a good deal of meaning from it).

I ask you time and time to supporting everything you refute with bible verse . If you dont want to do it Chris then i cant go on . We can argue all day and night who is right and wrong . I will only accept the word of God as final authority not me or you.

I support the third heaven comment with its only mention in scripture. All of your scriptures don’t even reference the cosmology – you’ve just force-fit them into whatever you arbitrarily created.

I could also note that Satan is called the (roughly) Prince of the Air in Scripture, which indicates that he holds dominion over the systems which rule the world (the second heaven), and that Jesus, in refusing to bow down to him – by this very act – was making a claim over that dominion. (FYI – if you can’t see that I’ve just quoted at least 3-4 scriptures w/o chapter/verse, then we really do have nowhere to go, because I’m going to assume you know the Bible well enough to recognize what I’m citing. I’m not going to spoon-feed you.)

Now, I will note that you cited:
1 Kings 8:27 — “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you.
And this fits exactly with what I described to you – God cannot fit within the ‘heavens’ – He is beyond them (see Ps 139). Thus, He is beyond the Third Heaven (where spirits dwell), as described in first century cosmology.

Now, perhaps you would argue that we don’t even need to know first-century or ancient cosmology to glean more understanding from the Bible. If so, you’ve just placed yourself in the position of the Catholic church in its persecution of Galileo – because the ancient cosmology saw the earth as the center of the universe, with everything rotating around it. So, when this is referenced in Scripture, the RCC insisted that everything rotated around the earth – despite scientific evidence to the contrary. However, if you understand the ancient cosmology, you understand the context of what is being said.

And that’s just one example.

Palestinian Jews was Aramaic (a Semitic language closely related to Hebrew).
The synoptic gospel where never in hebrew that is a fallacy on your part .

Actually, this is based on pre-1948 archaeological evidence. However, there is more and more evidence that Hebrew was the primary language spoken for religious conversation in Judea, with some Aramaic. Additionally, it is becoming more obvious that the common document/oral history that fed the synoptic gospels was Hebrew, not Greek or Aramaic – because of the key underlying Hebrew idioms used. I would suggest you read Bivins & Blizzard “Understanding the Difficult Words of Jesus” for an in-depth analysis of this.

ANOTHER OPINION FROM CHRIS NO FACTS TO BACK IT UP.

I’m not going to quote 300+ pages of research in a blog post. Not my opinion – accepted, peer-reviewed research based on first-century contextual interpretation (rather than modern acontextual analysis).

REV 2-7 To him that over comes i will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in paradise . So if i follow your interpertation here it would have to say To him that over comes i will grant to eat of the cross. . That is Horrible eisegesis. .

On your part, yes.

To him that overcomes, we have an opportunity to eat of the tree of life. When you eat of a tree, you eat of its fruits – not the wood, itself. So – what was the fruit of the cross? On what festival did Jesus raise from the dead? Firstfruits. How did Jesus’ disciples see this? Jesus is the firstfruits of the resurrection.

SO – if we eat from the tree of life, which is the cross – Jesus death, burial and resurrection – we gain eternal life.

Once again Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world.” John 18:36 the greek word is kosmos which means the world, the universethe circle of the earth, the earth the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family.

Perhaps you’d best go back and study more Greek. If you go to literal translations, kosmos is “system”, not “earth”. If you can’t get that right, you might as well just give up now and keep following Pastorboy instead of Christ.

Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations:

I suppose you don’t wear mixed fabric clothing, or eat shrimp, or shave either – correct?

#326.
Wow, at this point why carry on with this guy? – Joe

That is an amazing use of Scripture… I agree. Yet it is consistent with the need to condemn as demonstrated by the obsessive focus on that one girls beer.

Here being drunk was even offered as proof she was not a Christian.

Again, the greatest tragedy I saw in that tape was seeing people who would rather condemn sin than foster what very well might be the Spirit convicting her.

Instead of following-up on her comments about being a sinner, about deserving condemnation – her beer was the focus.

This is the problem i have Chris you need to read the bible stop coming up with stuff that is not biblical . – Rob

Look Rob, we all read our Bibles… assuming someone does not because they come to different conclusions is petty.

Rob – I suggest you choose another avenue, as we’re pretty much retreading this issue (use the “search” function above), and this thread will not be any further derailed down this avenue. If you persist, you will be moderated.

-this goes for everyone else here, as well…

Chris i am just stating the facts .You can do what you want to . But the facts are you cant refute the reference that i quote from Tony on homosexuality .

the “third heaven” is part of first-century cosmology.

In it, there are three spheres – beneath the earth (the “first heaven” – Sheol/Hades/Death), on the earth (the “second heaven” – the kingdom of the air, where we reside), and the ‘heavens’ – on which the stars are located on the outer sphere – this is the “third heaven” to which Paul was taken – where he was around the throne with the angels & spirits. God, though, dwells “beyond the veil” (as symbolized in the Temple, where the veil was dark purple and covered with the constellations, representing the stars on the sphere of the heavens)…

Notice one thing Chris no bible verse to back up anything all . Time and time Chris your opinion means nothing to me . You are throwing anything out there you can to get people to bite . Wont work with me Chris i am a berean .
What does it mean when the Bible refers to the Third Heaven?
The First Heaven: Earth Atmosphere

Deut. 11:17 — Then the LORD’s anger will burn against you, and he will shut the heavens so that it will not rain and the ground will yield no produce….
Deut. 28:12 — The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands.
Judges 5:4 — “O LORD, when you went out from Seir, when you marched from the land of Edom, the earth shook, the heavens poured, the clouds poured down water.
Acts 14:17 — “Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons;…
The Second Heaven: Outer Space

Psalm 19:4,6 — In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun… It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other;…
Jeremiah 8:2 — They will be exposed to the sun and the moon and all the stars of the heavens which they have loved and served….
Isaiah 13:10 — The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light.
The Third Heaven: God’s Dwelling Place

1 Kings 8:30 (phrase repeated numerous times in following verses) — then hear from heaven, your dwelling place…
Psalm 2:4 — The One enthroned in heaven laughs; The LORD scoffs at them.
Matthew 5:16 — In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
The highest heaven, the third heaven is indicated by the reference to the Throne of God being the highest heaven:

1 Kings 8:27 — “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you.
Deut. 10:14 — To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it.
I ask you time and time to supporting everything you refute with bible verse . If you dont want to do it Chris then i cant go on . We can argue all day and night who is right and wrong . I will only accept the word of God as final authority not me or you .

Hebrew is not just a language – it is a culture – in specific, the culture of first-century Palestine, where Jesus, Paul and the disciples were from. Additionally, it was most likely the original language of the synoptic gospels and the common language in Palestine.

Palestinian Jews was Aramaic (a Semitic language closely related to Hebrew).
The synoptic gospel where never in hebrew that is a fallacy on your part .
lets take a look at the earliest manuscripte found
Lukan Papyrus:

“The Lukan papyrus, situated in a library in Paris has been dated to the late 1st century or early 2nd century, so it predates the John papyrus by 20-30 years (Time April 26, 1996, pg.8). But of more importance are the manuscript findings of Mark and Matthew! New research which has now been uncovered by Dr. Carsten Thiede, and is published in his newly released book on the subject, the Jesus Papyrus mentions a fragment from the book of Mark found among the Qumran scrolls (fragment 7Q5) showing that it was written sometime before 68 AD It is important to remember that Christ died in 33 AD, so this manuscript could have been written, at the latest, within 35 years of His death; possibly earlier, and thus during the time that the eyewitnesses to that event were still alive!”
We know that Jesus preached in Aramaic, but one thing must be stated. The Jews new Aramaic but however, Greek was also a widespoken language and replaced Aramaic around Jesus time!!

“… Just as the Jews had abandoned their native Hebrew tongue for Aramaic in the Near East, so they abandoned the Aramaic in favor of Greek in such Hellenistic centers as Alexandria, Egypt. During the campaigns of Alexander the Great, the Jews were shown considerable favor. In fact, Alexander was sympathetic towards the Jews as a result of their policies toward him in the siege of Tyre (322 B.C.). He has even reported to have traveled to Jerusalem to do homage to their God. As he conquered new lands, he built new cities, which frequently had Jewish inhabitants, and frequently named them Alexandria.
Biblical Manuscripts: (note: these are individual manuscripts):

Magdalene Ms (Matthew 26) 1st century 50-60 AD coexistent

John Rylands (John) 90 AD 130 AD 40 years

Bodmer Papyrus II (John) 90 AD 150-200 AD 60-110 years

Chester Beatty Papyri (NT) 1st cen. 200 AD 150 years

Diatessaron by Tatian (Gospels) 1st cen. 200 AD 150 years

Codex Vaticanus (Bible) 1st cen. 325-350 AD 275-300 years

Codex Sinaiticus (Bible) 1st cen. 350 AD 300 years

Codex Alexandrinus (Bible) 1st cen. 400 AD 350 years

Total New Testament manuscripts = 5,300 Greek MSS, 10,000 Latin Vulgates, 9,300 others = 24,000 copies. Total MSS compiled prior to 600 AD = 230. Some of the most important MSS include:
The New Testament, however, was written in Greek. This seems strange, since you might think it would be either Hebrew or Aramaic. However, Greek was the language of scholarship during the years of the composition of the New Testament from 50 to 100 AD. The fact is that many Jews could not even read Hebrew anymore, and this disturbed the Jewish leaders a lot! So, around 300 BC a translation of the Old Testament from Hebrew into Greek was undertaken, and it was completed around 200 BC. Gradually this Greek translation of the Old Testament, called the Septuagint, was widely accepted and was even used in many synagogues. It also became a wonderful missionary tool for the early Christians, for now the Greeks could read God’s Word in their own tongue.

So the New Testament authors wrote in Greek. They did not, however, use really high-class or classical Greek, but a very common and everyday type of Greek. For many years some scholars ridiculed the Greek of the New Testament because many of its words were strange to those who read the writings of the great Greek classical authors such as Plato and Aristotle. But later many records were uncovered of ordinary people, and amazingly there were the same common terms used in everyday speech! The ridicule dried up accordingly.

The earliest copies of parts of the Hebrew Old Testament were discovered in 1947. They are part of the famous Dead Sea Scrolls and actually date back to the first century BC. Even though they are at least 900 years older than any parts of the Bible we had before this, they are not the originals. They are copies. The originals have all been lost or destroyed. But we are not at all doubtful that we may not have the original text. Copying by scribes was done with great care in those days and because the text was regarded as sacred, the copyists were extremely painstaking. Today some 5000 hand-copied documents exist of all or part of the Bible, and they agree in 98% of the text! No other ancient writing has this amount of underlying support with such amazing agreement as to the text.

Yes, we do have what God wanted us to have! By way of translation, we now have His revelation in our own language and in 2300 other languages, too. Today we have the very Bible that comes to us from the three languages used in the original. Truly we can say, “God speaks my language, too!”

A different author, I would first note, Rob. Secondly, John is writing to Ephesus, where he mirrors their language and juxtaposes worship of Artemis (Diana) with worship of God. The primary feature of Ephesus was the Temple of Artemis (one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World). In the center of the Temple of Artemis was a large garden (called the “paradise of Aretmis”), and in this garden was (supposedly) a rock that fell from the sky and a huge linden tree (actually two intertwined linden trees) called “The Tree of Life”. John uses this image, though he uses the word xulon (instead of dendron) for “tree”, signifying that the Tree of Life is the cross. So, just because the word ‘paradise’ is used, you might want to go beyond a simple English concordance to make your point.

ANOTHER OPINION FROM CHRIS NO FACTS TO BACK IT UP.
REV 2-7 To him that over comes i will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in paradise . So if i follow your interpertation here it would have to say To him that over comes i will grant to eat of the cross. . That is Horrible eisegesis. . Now you getting into works based . It sounds like you saying who overcomes get to eat of the cross . Rom 3:11, “no one seeks God.” . Romans 8-8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.So for your erroneous interpertation of Rev 2-7 saying we will not eat of the cross if we dont overcome is not biblical . We are saved through Gods grace there is nothing we can do to overcome . God has to do that work in is us . And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith…” Galatians 3:8 Chris you really you need to look at what you are copying and paste in the comment box . Your long lengtly post are a smoke screen far as i am concern .

Side-note: why is it the true kool-aid drinkers always seem to quote the KJV?]
First off, the thief refers to Jesus’ “kingdom” (not “the kingdom of God”). Secondly, we have no indication that the thief had any knowledge of Jesus’ teaching or the rabbinic teaching regarding the kingdom

. Are you saying he had no clue . When he said today you will be in paradise. Once again your opinion is way off here . Where is Jesus kingdom ?
Once again Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world.” John 18:36 the greek word is kosmos which means the world, the universethe circle of the earth, the earth the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family.

Thirdly, you’re now mixing contexts – moving from the thief on the cross in Luke to Jesus before Pilate in John. And I’ve already given you a proper exegesis of the Pilate passage (search for ‘kosmos’ on this page to find it).

Scripture always back up scripture i read in context. Once again Chris you gave me opinion i gave you scripture after scripture to back it up .

John 8:23 – first off, Jesus isn’t talking about his kingdom – he’s talking about his person. Secondly, he’s using world (kosmos) in terms of “systems” again – to expand upon below/above.

Once again you are way off here read the chapter in context .
Jhn 8:22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. Chris he is telling the Jews something here Chris he is telling the Jews they cant come where he is going . next verse
Jhn 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. once again Chris the world in the greek word is kosmos which means the world, the universethe circle of the earth, the earth the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family. The next verse Jesus says if you dont believe that I am you will die in your sins . If you read in context Chris Jesus is telling the Jews i am not of this world if you dont believe that i am God you will die in your sins . Stop looking at everything with Tony campolo eyes read the bible in context is my prayer.

2 Cor 4:4 – Since you chose the KJV, you have missed a key difference here. The word “world” in the KJV is translated “age” in other translations. It is not kosmos, but aion.

Nice try Chris the word ai?n means the worlds, universe
it could also mean age as well but if you read in context it is talking about ai?n meaning universe .Strong’s G165 – ai?n

Matt 4:8 – Satan uses the word kosmos (which, if you check the Greek interlinear is even translated “system” not “land” or “world”) . You’re basically proving my point for me. So thank you!

Once again Chris you are only trying prove your point if you read in context .
Chris the world in the greek word is kosmos which means the world, the universethe circle of the earth, the earth the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family.Strong’s G2889 – kosmos Greek lexicon tell me it can mean universe if you read in context that it is exactly saying .
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the universe , and the glory of them; .
I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me. I pray for them. I do not pray for the world…” John 17:6-9.

Chris Jesus is saying he does not pray for this world what is going on here .Jesus doesnt pray for this world .
The greek word there as well is kosmos it means universe .
You also do this by quoting Paul from Romans:
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,

Yes – exactly – the kingdom is NOT a place – it is a state of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Rob, where is the Holy Spirit? (Hint – read Acts 2 and beyond.)

Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.” John 17:11-18

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body….” Philippians 3:20
Where is Jesus right now . let me give you a hint read Heb 10:12.

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’” Matthew 7:21-23

“For many are called, but few chosen.” Matthew 20:16

“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

“…no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.” Ephesians 5:5-7

“…the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19-21

“I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:19-20

Jesus said, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God! For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. And those who heard it said, ‘Who then can be saved?’ But He said, ‘The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.’” Luke 18:24-26

“‘Hear this now, O foolish people, without understanding,
Who have eyes and see not, and who have ears and hear not:
Do you not fear Me?’ says the Lord. ‘Will you not tremble at My presence?” Jeremiah 5:21-22

“No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.” Luke 9:62

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Thirdly, you’re now mixing contexts – moving from the thief on the cross in Luke to Jesus before Pilate in John. And I’ve already given you a proper exegesis of the Pilate passage (search for ‘kosmos’ on this page to find it).A book I just finished this past week (from the folks at the Jerusalem School of Synoptic Research)describes this pretty succinctly:
Chris your comment about the kool aid i will ignore .
First Corinthians 13:4-5 says, “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.”

In my experience, the emails I get from lurkers are of the “thanks for standing up for truth” or “thanks for sticking it to those idiots” variety. That is to say, most people are just being confirmed in what they already think/believe and are grateful to hear it put in wise, flowery, witty vignettes that they can then use on their friends…or enemies.

While I am not opposed to speaking out or sharing what God has placed upon our hearts (I still intend to blog) I just can’t justify, anymore, the time spent in arguing back and forth with a person for 400 or 600 or 1000+ comments, as I have been guilty of in the past. I have to ask myself: Would Christ be glued to a keyboard arguing over doctrine and methods? I am doubtful. Rather, he might tell me that if I dislike the soap box preachers shouting condemnation and hell then stand near by them and speak a word of grace and love. If I think homosexuals are God’s enemies and therefore mine than pray for them and love them even more. If I think PB or others are crazy for emphasizing speaking over doing than I should go out and plant a garden or volunteer in a soup kitchen.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I have come to see just how disembodied this sort of theological rankling really is. It is devoid of context. Frankly, I cannot say whether it is wrong to do what the person in the OP did. I don’t know them, wasn’t there and in the end, who am I to judge? There may indeed be times and seasons for such a witness. There may not be. But I wasn’t there. And if I were there, I would hope I would avoid using “rights” language to make my case. As Christians, the moment we start talking about our “rights” is the moment, IMO, that we have ceased keeping the conversation in a truly Christian context.

In the end, I wonder if it is the best use of time to argue at such great lengths with people whom we have never shared Supper with and probably never will (not this side of heaven, at least). What sort of message or witness would it send if everyone just told Rob and those who consistently dissent and complain and argue and flaunt their self-righteous indignation: “Well, you might be right about that. Thank you for sharing your opinion. At least we agree on the most important thing: Jesus is Lord.”

peace.