Somewhere in the internet world there is a post about Jude being an original ADM/EDM/ODM. My question is where are the names? Where is Jude’s name calling? In fact, look at verse 16 and tell me who that looks like today? Take a look at verse 8. Just look at the whole book and I would offer that the very people who use Jude as their proof text are guilty of what Jude is writing against. I find it interesting this supposed forerunner of the ADM’s never uses names. He tells them to be merciful. Truth is, by their standards, he seems rather wishy washy.
Seriously, go read the book here. Come back and tell me what you think.
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58 Comments(+Add)
The faith to which Jude is referring is the gospel. It is defending that truth that Jesus is the Christ and salvation is through Him alone. All the different applications are subjective at best, and self serving at worst.
The third verse describes men who are “denying the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus”. To expand that to include someone like Rick Warren is profoundly disingenuos.
Of course the “keep yourselves in the love of God” is actually in the Greek translated “memorize the Westminster Confession”.
I wonder which written Scriptures Jude used to refute New Testament error? How can he be a discerner without espousing sola scriptura?
I think that there is a difference between contend for the faith and defending the faith.
We are called to fight the good fight… to contend for the faith..
A prize fighter who is contending is fighting toward the prize… not defending the prize he already has…
We are not called to contend again flesh and blood but the powers and principalities that hold people in bondage. To think that other people are the enemy… our opponents misses the message of the Gospel.
To defend means that we are the source of faith and need to defend ourselves.
God is our defender… Truth defends us… we contend for the truth… God defends us as we do.
iggy
It’s sad that Calvinism, which is a wholesome theology, gets dragged together with the foolishness of such sites. Sad.
K.
I said that exact thing today. If Calvin lived today, it’s hard to not believe that these people would attack him with fervor.
Probably true. Although, they probably wouldn’t live that long to tell about it either.
We also have to remember the occasional nature of the NT epistolary…
That means Jude has a purpose…generally understood as…watch now…
defending the faith from false teachers who were teaching God’s grace was a license to act immorally. (i.e. anti-nomianism) (sp?).
See this is the problem with cherry picking verses etc.
To quote Jude as a proof text for some kind of “blanket permission/mandate” to do this is a matter of interepretation…
Jude 22 – And with some have compassion.
Who, pray tell, are these “some”? I know, it applies to ODMs who messed up in former years. It surely cannot mean teenagers on a beach who are messing up today.
What does Jude say about ODMs that tell vulgar jokes on a public blog site? What does it say about an ODM publicly suggesting ordained pastors are lusting after a 15 years old girl?
The “rich history” of discernment ministries is a mirage created by the self righteous imagination of bloggers who have an inflated view of the internet. I love to play the game, “Pin the Tail on the Proof Text”.
First of all I went to a good translation, not the Nearly Inspitred Version.
Second, if you are trying to attach these to any of the discernment blogs it is an incredible stretch.
8Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones.
16These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage.
The only thing more distasteful than smarmy twaddle are the purveyors of smarmy twaddle.
Find something you are good at and go do it, please.
That Jude idiot.
Re:#8
The Bible… dang, all it ever does is get in the way of the EDMs and their own particular brand of wisdom.
Actually it gets in the way of human “wisdom” in general, be it ADM wisdom, reformed wisdom, Lutheran wisdom, catholic wisdom, emergent wisdom…
There seems to be a great gulf between analyzing and interpreting the Scriptures and materializing and displaying them in our very lives.We can have an accurate systematic theology, and we can be quite thorough in our discernment of others, but if we are not exhibiting the weighty issues of imitating Christ our words are wind and our motives are self righteous.
If indeed God has called you to help discern error, you must be a profoundly humble and gracious believer or by definition you project self confidence in your own spiritual depth. Any hint of pride or rhetoric or personal attack, any display of hubris or demeaning language or dismissiveness, and any whiff of soul judgment concerning others disqualifies you as a spokesman for truth and in fact completely misrepresents the greatest truth of all, the cross.
If in fact God may use you to correct in the area of truth, you must build a firewall between God’s Word and your believing in God’s Word. Your personal believing in God’s Word must never be used as ammunition against others, or God forbid any self praise, it must always reside at an address we call grace with God’s name on the door and not yours.
If you are contending for truth, forcefulness must marry humility, strength must ride with weakness, and correction must be empowered by love. You cannot take pride in your calling, you must always battle the feeling of personal inadequacy and feel genuine pain, not umbrage, when you see others straying.
If God does call certain men into a ministry of discernment, it must be within the greater context of His Word to His followers. Much of what has presently been constructed and touted as a discernment ministry lacks the essential elements of Christlikeness and in some cases has become a blight rather than a blessing to the church.
While sections of the church have become shallow and careless, other sections have become rude and self righteous. In the end, the evangelical shouting match only reinforces the present spiritual inertia and allows the darkness to spread with little hinderance from any divine light. And in that context, even victories lose ground.
And this is a pristine example of the convolution that is reformed/Calvinistic/Lutheran theology. Rosebrough parrot’s the reformed view that we as humans cannot even love God or our neighbor.
We are no better than polar bears.
Here is an example of gossip style discernment complete with demeaning labels and a literary technique designed to accentuate an ambiance of self righteousness.
Ingrid’s obsession with Miley Cyrus continues, and her use of Miley’s words as a backdrop for her addressing the gay issue is pitiful. Who cares what Miley Cyrus says, except those who scour the internet looking for her and others to say things that lend themselves so easily for blog fodder.
But at the end of the post Ingrid speaks directly to Miley Cyrus for special effect, and within that semi-sarcastic style she calls Miley an enemy of God and by implication her enemy as well. Of course Ingrid has set up a straw man suggesting that some of us “defend” Miley Cyrus when in fact I object to Ingrid, not defend Miley.
I believe one of the most repulsive and disrespectful things that has ever been said by a blogger is when Ingrid insinuated that when some Christian men defend Miley Cyrus is because we are lusting after her. And she was 15 years old at the time.
And yet Ingrid feels it necessary to defend herself when it suits her. She is the epitome of a hypocrite. Why doesn’t Ken or Mike Ratliff or Chris R. correct Ingrid for such a viscious statement? Because their hatred for people blind them to her outrageous antics, or they are cowards.
Yep Ingrid is sooooo tough… and Ingrid’s husband is a wimp to the unth degree to let her pick on a 15 yr old girl…
Sheesh… I hope Ingrid doesn’t cry now about how mean I am…
I mean… The last thing that Ingrid would want is for anyone to be loved…
BTW who reads Slice anyway… it has turned more into Teenbeat than a ministry blog… really who cares what Hannah Montana has to say?
Yep Slice of Teenbeat Blog… or maybe Slice of Tiger blog… the maturity level fits…
iggy
Ingrid’s battle is obviously against flesh and blood… and Grace seems totally missing in her theological world…
Hate and anger are not part of the Fruit of the Spirit Ingrid… nor is self righteousness.
Forgiveness? I guess Ingrid has never heard of that either…
So sad…
Rick said, “Why doesn’t Ken or Mike Ratliff or Chris R. correct Ingrid for such a viscious statement? Because their hatred for people blind them to her outrageous antics, or they are cowards.”
Well Rick, that’s pretty interesting. Either I agree with you or I am full of hate or I am a coward. I don’t read everything Ingrid posts. I have never read what you are referring to. I can also tell you very plainly Rick that I hate no one. I simply stand firm against false teachings and those who teach and hold them because that is what we are commanded to do in scripture. And yes “brother” the Word of God does teach us what the truth is and it is not relative.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
You guys just do not like the scripture.
Paul, Peter, Jude, and John would all be considered ADM’s by you folks.
Ao to be called and ADM, ODM whatever by you is A-OK with me.
You brrod of vipers…who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
I will…continually…until you come to faith. Come away from the fire. Quit returning to your wallow, your vomit.
Now, let’s fix it.
Either someone agrees with Mike R or they are full hate or an unregenerate coward whom he will ban from commenting on his blog.
BTW Mike, before you pull the you are what you hate thing. You’ll notice you can comment here. We won’t ban you. Now, I realize your temper is going to take off soon and you’ll write more lies on your blog but you cannot deny this fact.
Well the link is in Rick’s comments… and if you are not a coward and truly stand behind your words… tell Ingrid when she goes too far…
Or you can add hypocrite to the list…
Peace! = )
iggy
Joe, You are banned because all your comments are direct attacks on people like the one I am responding to here. I am done “commenting here,” the only reason I came here was that a friend told me what Rick had said. By-the-way, if you want to comment on my blog Joe, then get your Bible out and respond from it instead of your philosophy.
Again add hypocrite to the list… thanks for confirming our thoughts on you Mike… You guys never let us down on your relativistic view of truth and the bible.
iggy
Funny how these guys call others to man-up yet when they are called to do the same they run away…
Yep… go and help Ingrid pick on little girls… don’t stand up and be a real man… Mike.
What is it with EDMs and their obsessive use of scare quotes?
I think there is a strong correlation between passive aggressive behavior and EDM sympathies.
I thank God there are people like Mike who care about truth, God and the thing God cares most about: being right. It is so encouraging to know that in my own delusion and that of so many others who merely think we care about loving God faithfully that someone, someone like Mike, really pulls it off.
And of course truth is not relative. When Mike and I read the same texts and come to different conclusions this only means that Mike is always right in his conclusions and I am always wrong.
It is a good thing he bans me from posting on his blog lest anyone get the impression that not everyone agrees with his conclusions.
I wonder that too, M.G. Why does Mike refer to Rick as “brother”? Why the quotes? Is this his way of suggesting that Rick is not a Christian?
The disunity and sectarianism of these people is a far worse sin than anything they protest against.
Chad,
Why do you “complain” about being “banned” when it’s obvious that “you” merely “hate” the truth.
“Seriously,” Chad, it’s time to “grow” up. Some day, you’ll “learn” how “right” Mike is all the “time.”
More importantly, Mike thanks God that there are men like Mike.
Oh and Mike,
I’ll tell you what, you find an actual quote where Rob attacks PSA (not some blog linking to another blog) and I’ll worry about the tripe you call a blog. Mike, you lack courage to stand and take the heat for what you say, that’s why you only allow your Amen choir to comment on your blog.
John Chisham has a comment in moderation for you right now. Something about a brood of vipers or something…
wonders why Mike doesn’t do his sign off like this,
“In Christ”
Mike
I think the following verses from Jude are most important and sorely lacking from the ODM’s:
ANY good thing in the ODM’s, and to hear them they have plenty, are but for the grace of God alone!!! IF they really believed that it would behoove them, it would compel them, to show grace and mercy to others, even those they don’t agree with. You can “contend” without being “contentious”.
As was already acknowledged, Jude is not talking about any that have mere theological issues but those who reject God or use Him for their advantage. Doesn’t say anything about “circus churches”, being nice to homosexuals or even proclaiming what the ODM’s mistakenly call the “social gospel”.
That is not what I said. I suggested those are the reasons you do not correct or confront Ingrid. Perhaps coward is a little strong, what I meant was peer pressure which has some apprehension attached to it.
Well I’m sure you have read enough to see the unbiblical nature of her words. There is a consistent dieat of them.
Here is the link. You will notice this insult near the end:
“After seeing this link, I think I do understand the, er, Christian males who defend Miley Cyrus. By the way she and her colleague are dressed, I’m understanding these male bloggers defense of her more all the time…”
Ingrid has openly suggested men like me and others on this blog are lusting after a 15 year old girl. If that goes unchallenged from within Ingrid’s own community then any words about Rick Warren are hollow and partisan. If Rick Warren had said something like that he would have been eviscerated on your blog and others, but an unordained women is allowed to smear me and other personally without any proof and an accusation about a serious sin of the heart. In effect, she has called some of us pedophiles, and she has done it publicly.
Now you are aware of it, will you rebuke Ingrid for such a careless and viscious remark? When Iggy posts some things I deem innappropriate on his other site I have said so publicly. Will you or Ken do the same as it concerns Ingrid. Iggy never suggested Ingrid was lusting after one of the Jonas brothers who is 16 years old, he would have been roundly rebuked here.
I did notice the quotes around the word brother. In your words “Either I agree with you or I get quotes around the word “brother” as it applies to me?”
Most of your posts, Mike, never contain personal attacks, especially on teen age girls. However you faithfully point out some of the questionable alliances that Warren has, so being in alliance with Ingrid must be on some level an approval.
You say you desire to stand firm against false teachings and that is noble. However you cannot turn a blind eye to the outrageous words of Ingrid, not to mention her overt egalitarian behavior. Those issues are also part of the Scriptures we should be defending.
Rick,
Your post above is a very reasoned, well-written call to correct inappropriate behavior amongst those who call themselves Christians.
Sadly, I fear it will go unheeded. People who have made it their life’s mission to be in defense of their own interpretations of Scripture will only respond to posts like yours by getting more defensive. When people like Mike, who feel it is their duty to dissect the Christian community, separating brothers from “brothers,” then it is very convenient for them when they are corrected by someone they have already put outside their “circle of trust.” All Mike has to do to sleep at night is say to himself, “Well, of course Rick would say that. The truth is not in him.”
While I would love to be proven wrong (about all of them) I have never seen evidence to suggest I am.
I have seen Mike call into question the regenerate status of men like Rick Warren and others. And the quotes around the word brother when he addresses me is very unfortunate and it, to me, reveals a continuing metamorphosis in Mike’s focus and attitude.
I would like to draw attention to something just recently that happened on this blog. Joe posted an article which I though made a good point, but down the thread Neil suggested two of his statements were somewhat ad hominen.
Joe took issue with that, Neil took issue with Joe, but yet no one hinted that the other was not a brother in Christ. They had a minor scrap, but I am confident it will not affect them in the future. Isn’t that what being a brother in Christ is all about? Forgiveness? Forbearance? And just the maturity to move on?
I have always spoken positively about Possessing the Treasure, and I have always remained respectful when commenting. But it would seem that Mike will not address a sincere appeal for correction, and in fact a correction directed at him. Ingrid continues to act outside most of the reformed etc. doctrinal teachings regardless of how they attempt to smooth the doctrinal edges.
But the elder issues aside, she speaks with unchristian verbiage and with deeply offensive labels and hyperbole, and even accuses men of pedophile thoughts and lusts. Now if Chris Lyons had made that accusation against Ken, or Mike, or even Ingrid, I would have – before Christ my Lord – publicly called him to correction and demanded he issue an apology.
I would expect nothing less from Chris L. had I made such a statement. Sometimes, if you are desiring to be seen as standing for God’s truth, you will be called of the Spirit to rebuke someone who is your friend (wounds of a friend are sweet). When, in the face of such overwhelming evidence, you refuse to correct someone or even admit there is unbiblical speech in her posts, then you reveal a bias and a respecter of persons.
Ingrid has not just mad an unfortunate slur once in a great while, she continues to practice this behavior. It is disingenuous to write with such passion and emotion about the verbiage of Mark Driscoll when in your very own “camp” some of the most hateful vitriol continues to spew forth.
I want to say publicly that “painted girls of Sodom” and “bath house deviants” and accusing pastors of lusting after Miley Cyrus is worse – I SAID WORSE – than saying the “F” word, and everyone knows how I feel about that.
#32
He is writing to Christians, not the general public, and certainly not to those who are destroyers of the faith.
I couldn’t agree more, Rick.
Mike (#21):
Joe, you’re lucky. All I ever got at Mike’s blog was a non-approval of comments when I’d say something that wasn’t easily mocked. Guess I’ll have to try harder.
And yet Mike links to Ingrid whose direct attacks upon people are legendary. Why the difference?
I think this is the crux of this issue. Some people just do not see the way of Christ having anything to do with any of that.
I asked PB a week ago if orthodoxy was necessary for salvation. Never got a response.
These people give lip service to grace alone and the sovereignty of God but the truth is they do not really believe it. How can they? Their words certainly do not reflect such a belief. It’s like the abusive man who beats his wife while telling the world he loves her. It doesn’t add up.
Rick (#37):
I’m assuming that was rhetorical, seeing as how he never answered your original question anyway.
The way he can evade the actual issues — he must have been awesome at dodgeball as a kid.
You know, Ingrid said something similar last week. She too had a ‘friend’ who told her what someone had written here and she came in firing away. Come on, just admit it Mike, you like us, you really, really, like us and you want to hang around with us. Just like Ingrid does.
On another note. To Joe: Do you really want to comment on Mike’s blog?
There is a part of me that feels sad for these guys, because I have been captured in former years by that spirit, and indeed it is a spirit. When you have chosen a template or prism through which you evaluate everything, and when you suggest your prism is God’s written revelation, then you live in a level of impunity.
Steve Camp’s recent thoughts about showing grace to doctrinal adversaries was very edifying and reflects what can happen when we allow the Spirit to change our tone and heart, even if not our theology. But of course tone, attitude, humility, grace, and love are theology, they just have fallen out of favor in some corners.
Standing firm for God’s Word goes much deeper than merely espousing and verbally defending certain tenants of the faith. Living as did Christ is a challenge that is far more humble and far more loving than we can imagine. This “standing for truth” construct has become a self serving idol which is overwhelmingly worshiped at a keyboard rather than embodied by a living follower of Jesus.
Living epistles in our neighborhoods are certainly more effective than contending for the Creeds and Confessions of long ago. Like many other things, it is very easy to get caught up in a cause other than Christ, or to suggest your cause for truth is Christ.
When I first came to this internet thing 3 years ago I read some things about Warren and others about which I agreed. But as time went on I began to feel an uneasiness in my spirit concerning the palapable self righteous rhetoric that I saw and sometimes wrote. I could not reconcile the two and so something had to change, and that something was me.
But others have moved steadily in the other direction. And I realize some are caught in a deceptive stronghold when they cannot, or will not, even see something as outrageously unchristian as SoL. There are some respected ODM sites that will not even link to SoL for that very reason. So why can’t those around her see it?
I will not take up for myself, I am violently flawed and am profoundly wanting in my own exhibition of God’s truth and of Christ Himself.But I refuse to stand silent when sinners and saints alike are attacked, demeaned, and castigated with such reckless abandon and with such spiritual hubris as to publicly reject them as brothers in Christ. God Himself reserves the final say on that very subject.
#36
Are you really saying that your ministry and the ministries of Ken and Ingrid are to write to, and insult, non-believers, as opposed to Christians? And that’s what justifies the coarse language, focus on negativity, and overall “tabloid” style so increasingly dominant?
Where is that in the Bible?
Where is it in the Bible that Christians are called to minister to non-believers by insulting them?
And I thought you had just recently justified your actions by referring to Jude? NOW you’re saying that your ministry is nothing like Jude’s?
Pastorboy says:
That was exactly my point John. Anything good they can claim about themselves is only by the grace of God so if they see fault in others they should be much more measured in their criticsm as there by the Grace of God go they. Yet with their lack of humility you would think THEY are responsible for their wonderful Christian behavior. Wait, maybe THEY are. Hmmm.
Wow…
THE Mike Ratliff lurks here…
Wait.
Who is he, again? On what basis does his voice matter? Why does anybody care?
What a stupid comment.
And now we’ve been declared outside of Christ… tell ya what John, I’m willing to take my chances that you don’t know what you are talking about when it comes to my faith.
And when Joe’s manhood was aattacked, I defended him as best as I know…
I only answer my friends on Facebook, Chad. You defriended me.
And as of yet there is no official rebuke of Ingrid by Mike R. and I assume none will be forthcoming. I fear that this reveals that he is not standing impartially for God’s truth but rather for his agenda.
The real proof that you passionately care about God’s Word is not found supremely in posts about doctrine, but it is most recognizable when your stand costs you something among your friends.
Mike posts used to be predominantly devotional, but almost every post now is offerred in the context of an “us vs. them” structure with the emphasis on “us” as defenders of God’s truth, or as he describes himself in his current post,
Mighty warriors for the truth? Hack to pieces the enemies of God? Will not raise their sword to defend self? God may have them take severe abuse?
This is a unique example of how so many ODMs have an elevated self image of their importance in God’s sight and their own. I love the “will not defend themselves” part. Let someone somewhere write something about them and they show up to present their case and defend themselves.
The American definition of severe abuse is much different than other definitions around the world. I’ve been called all sorts of names too, but I would hardly call it abuse. We can rest easy knowing there will not be any correction within the ODM community, only to those without the camp.
Mike is a genuine follower of Christ but he has been scooped up into the self serving world of the discernment blogs which includes hyperbole, soul judgment, and a consistent diet of subtle and overt self praise.
I don’t have a problem with naming names; the Apostles did it when it was necessary.
I just don’t like idea of “name names so I can keep on doing what I’m doing and feel good about myself even though my conscience has been pricked.”
It reminds me of the narcotics officer who started off doing the right thing with the best of intentions, only to become a huge addict in the end.
Yeah! I am safe also! We were never friends on Facebook… I know who my real friends are… and did not make the mistake of letting someone who calls himself a friend but wants to only harm me and others.
OH and I have 348 an climbing as far as friends! (just a little joke that PB, Jerry and I have had going on)
iggy
Iggy, I am almost at 700, even with the subtraction of Chad.
Ingrid cannot get over the Miss America issue. She has two more posts about it, and one concludes with this attack so typical of her style:
Ingrid has a penchant for suggesting lust on the part of Christian “males”. That is real discernment on her part. I got news for Ingrid, all men deal with lust including Christian husbands you may know. It will be cold day where the Boogie Man lives before most of us ever watch a beauty pageant.
Let it go, Ingrid, only God know men’s hearts. At least that is what I’ve been told. I continue to find it extremely unbiblical and repugnant to see someone’s wife cast a blanket aspersion on Christian men, I’m sure God calls men to do that.
Yeah PB, but these are really friends… and it is now 354…
Facebook is the mark of the beast. You all are doomed!
Read this post from Ingrid.
Here is my question: If these free speech restrictions actually do go in place as Ingrid has described them, will she be willing to lose the radio license rather than adjust her speech? Whom does she serve, God or man?