Oh there is a lot of whimpering… Ingrid is whimpering all over the place… but really who cares what someone whimpers (complains) about if they give no real solution other than “I am saved by grace, so give grace to me but you guys that I disagree with can all go to hell cuz I hate you.”

Really… nc hits it on the head… there are some that confused the USA with the Kingdom of God… and are more worried about their “rights” than bringing the righteousness of God to others.

iggy

Don’t you know? Jesus doesn’t care about the poor – he only cares about what people do with their dangly parts.

Jerry – Talk about scratching my itch. I feel that nationalism in the church is idolatry at its worst since it not only goes unnoticed, it is championed by believers. You have identified many areas that render Ingrid blind to the real needs of people.

Abortion is an easy target for evangelicals, however talking and marching will never stop it. The “Christian Right” is a false construct that uses morality to obscure the gospel message and is so consumed with being conservative that they refuse to see the profound needs of people.

As you have outlined, are the 5000 people that die of AIDs every day in Africa, or the 6000 Africans that die every die of malaria, worth less than an aborted baby? I believe God grieves for all injustices world wide, and I know He grieves when believers treat America like Beulah Land.

There are thousands of believers that work in life pregnancy centers, and thousands of believers who attend to the needs of people worldwide. How easy it is to shoot verbal arrows from a keyboard and think you are some kind of prophetess or truth warrior.

God does not deal with America, He deals with His people and with sinners individually. BTW – if any ODM is concerned with helping people Mexico City is calling. Talk show Christianity is no Christianity at all.

FRUEH’S UNABRIDGED DICTIONARY

Whimper = complain and murmur.

(By the way, I must say the “Naked Slippery Slope” sounds like something a frat would do on a weekend…)

It sounds like a typical night when I was younger… but let’s not go there…

# 9

Shouldn’t you extend grace to those people also?

#10 – Yes, the grace of correction.

Well, Jerry, here is another of four or five posts from Ingrid on the Miss USA wearing a bathing suit issue. After reading your comment, Jerry, and thinking about its implications, I’ve arrived at the conclusion that these people do not care about evangelism or the earthly needs of people.

Straining at a swimsuit camel and swallowing a self righteous gnat.

#13 – Some of us have. But it is most difficult to “call out” bloggers when they do not allow comments. It’s kinda like launching bombs from inside a bomb shelter.

But hey, when everyone else needs correction but you, a comment section would seem unnecessary.

With you white people and what you have done to enslave my people through the reservation system, the introduction of alcohol, the welfare system (to make us dependent on you) etc. It is a wonder there is hardly a whimper on that. My people have a name for the white man- who many equate with the white Christian unfortunately- Wascitchu-

It is pronounced-we-cheat-you

“You white people”

What an incredible broad brush while exhibiting unchristian bitterness.

What the “white mand” did to the Indians was horrible. Does that make it any better? What the Indians did to each other was horrible as well.

The only thing I would add is that the whole reservation system created a simultaneous phenomenon of ghetto-izing Native Americans and making them dependent on a system of white privilege that condescended to “help” them….long before “welfare”…

just my 2 cents.

Point of order –

White people, or Americans, are not the same as the church. White people killed millions of Christians as well. Blaming a race might provide an emotional outlet, however it serves no spiritual interest.

I would also point out that there are many saved North American natives (I know some) who may never have come to CHrist were it not for the “white” migration here.

25:

I agree with PB.

I think it also starts with being honest about the circumstances of the situation.

It wasn’t asians or blacks systematically wiping out native populations in the name of “manifest destiny”…

There is a history of deeds predicated on a particular racial/cultural paradigm. There was an explicitly racial rationale to when the system of white privilege engaged other race groups.

We have to acknowledge how the idea of “race” played a role in this…

White folk who have proclaimed the gospel to Native peoples have still had to contend with the legacy of race and genocide (yes. genocide) that was part of our dealings with those now of “the rez”.

It’s not about blame…it’s about honesty…you can’t move forward without it.

just my nickel

RE: #26, I agree it’s about honesty.

RE: #18, Sounds a lot like blame.

RE: #25, I agree. Which is why I oppose the Christian Right, and the ADM’s, who try and maintain Christendom.

Though I would not go so far as Rick and refuse to participate in the political process, I agree with him that the mixing of Christianity and Nationalism that has been indicative of evangelicalism serves no good purpose.

RINO

I praise God for the 60 votes…

and regardless of what party gets them…

you know why?

Because you can actually get some stuff done and know who’s responsible (”to blame”?)

haha.

RE: #32 – I prefer complete congressional gridlock.

Very convicting post, jerry.

Thurstin, don’t be offended please (seeing as how you called me a false prophet in the other thread) but I agree with your sentiment in #18. And I do not blame you for using the language you chose to use.

As for making another race or group of people dependent, white Westerners have been masters at that. I recommend reading W.E.B. DuBois and learn what it means to be in economic slavery after emancipation took place and how the white man most certainly was responsible (and still is).

There is hardly a whimper on that score, anymore.

http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/false-teaching/joel-osteen-wins-first-ever-worst-easter-sermon-award

I wonder what these people would say if there was a website called: “Jerks for Jesus”?

You could log in and read descriptions of ADM’s and other bat doo-doo crazy Christians being…well…themselves and then vote on who gets the “award”.

That being said…nobody needed to wait until this Easter to recognize that Joel Osteen is a horrible preacher…for starters.

Not to bring up the Carrie Prejean thing again but………..My gift to Rick today
http://www.newswithviews.com/PaulProctor/proctor179.htm
I hope I got that right.

yeesh…proctor.

I’m on the record about that guy…

that being said, I’m kind of sad he’s shot his cred with the Kyle Lake situation.

http://www.newswithviews.com/PaulProctor/proctor82.htm

Mostly because if anyone here cut through the ca-ca to lay it out about that woman, we’d be accused of more cyber-rape.

Can’t feel good, Inrgid. So sorry for you. Then again, if you were wearing a cyber-burqa then nobody would bother you…whatever that means.

the only thing I’d say he missed is that lust of flesh and eyes does factor in for the people he’s describing. Just in inverse proportion…

I agree with the OP. There is so much more to talk about. But the ODMs are spending time, travel, energy, and money to just hunt down heretics.

For example, it seems that our good friend, Chris Rosebrough (and two of his cohorts) actually made a trip all the way to Granger Community Church to check out the heresy and report to the masses on the horrors taking place there.

Granger staffers met with Rosebrough and saw little disagreement in their core doctrines — i.e., the essentials of the faith. Granger’s pastor of connections noted, they saw eye to eye on some terrifically key points:

“we’ve missed the mark, fallen short of God’s glory, our destiny is spiritual death and purposeless living… except for a Savior. Jesus Christ has done in his living, death, and resurrection all that we could never do on our own. We are the direct recipients of his grace – unconditional love, full of forgiveness, complete in Christ. And we did nothing to earn it.”

But apparently this wasn’t good enough for Rosebrough and crew, who then proceeded to twitter (no pun intended) about the terrible state of truth at Granger after hearing a sermon and talking to one of the pastors: “What we heard was depressing & sad. All law no gospel. Tragic!”

Say what???? This prompted Granger’s pastor of connections to blog an article understandably titled: “Confused by the Critics.”

And I can’t blame him for being confused. There is little sense to be made of some of Rosebrough’s arguments and criticisms of Grnager — or most of his targets, TBH. As I noted in my comment to the thread:

I’ve told Rosebrough personally where he has erred. And in fact, on a personal note, I’ve attempted to tell him until I was blue in the face that salvation is indeed by grace alone through faith alone — and also that this is precisely what is taught at Saddleback Church. But he insists otherwise, going so far as to tell me that I did not even really know what I myself believe and that Rick Warren, contrary to claim, does indeed advance a kind of law-based gospel, as Rosebrough noted on September 23, 2008, in a posted article/radio broadcast titled: “Rick Warren’s Law Based “Gospel.” But I can say with full certainty that such an assertion is one of the kookiest things I’ve ever heard (and I mean that in the nicest possible way, and with a smile on my face).

This is all becoming a total waste of time, IMHO. The ODMs have hardened their hearts, it seems, to truth. And they have shunned the light. There’s not much you can do after that happens — I’ve seen it with cultists a lot over the years (hmmmmm).

The pastor concluded: “I’m confused by websites and radio shows that put so much energy and time into criticizing fellow Christ-followers and churches who are preaching Jesus, inviting people to engage the Kingdom of God here and now, making their lives count in God’s agenda to redeem all of creation for his glory and honor. I’m concerned for the confusion that’s created for those who still haven’t experienced the reality of God’s grace – as they watch the feud, hear the sarcasm, left to wonder what grace must mean if it’s not shared by those who preach it’s message. Tragic.”

Amen, Pastor Mark, Amen.

Richard Abanes
The Cult of ODMs

So it’s acceptable to make pejorative statements against an entire race using inflammatory language – if the race in question are Whites.

Yes, if the pejorative statements are in fact, true.

(and I didn’t see anything pejorative in his remarks)

yes, we have been down this road before, Chris and Neil. God forbid either of you ever show grace to those whom we as a race have long oppressed. I know, I know, YOU are not a racist and have always said “hi” to black people and even smiled while doing so.

“What we heard was depressing & sad. All law no gospel. Tragic!”

There is a great irony of this being said by Chris R… it is so sadly hilarious…

When it is their contention that churches like that preach all grace and no law…

They can never be satisfied in their pursuit of condemnation…

iggy

And if Granger is the worst heretical church on the planet – so what? Christianity has been distilled into a set of doctrines that can be defended on a radio program.

The profound self righteousness that accompanies such behavior is mind boggling. When is the program that centers on the particular sins of all the pirates air?

I especially like this “PRESS RELEASE” from Rosebrough, complete with a rather interesting title he’s given himself, as posted by Ingrid:

INDIANAPOLIS, April 28 /Christian Newswire/ — Chris Rosebrough, captain of internet based Pirate Christian Radio and host of the Fighting for the Faith Radio program announced on Monday that Joel Osteen is the winner of the “Worst Easter Sermon Award” for 2009.

Captain? Seriously? This is approaching, to keep the analogy going, some very troubling waters…….”Avast ye, mateys, yarr, bring up the heretic prisoner and make him walk der plank!!! Yarrr.”

RA

“Christian” “Pirate” “Radio”? Where are the Navy SEALs when you need them?

So it’s acceptable to make pejorative statements against an entire race using inflammatory language – if the race in question are Whites.

Yes, if the pejorative statements are in fact, true.

(and I didn’t see anything pejorative in his remarks)

Hmmm… so racism is acceptable if there is some historical fact. All racial stereotypes have a basis in fact- that’s what makes them stereotypes.

And seriously, you see nothing pejorative with “You whites…”?!?

yes, we have been down this road before, Chris and Neil. God forbid either of you ever show grace to those whom we as a race have long oppressed. I know, I know, YOU are not a racist and have always said “hi” to black people and even smiled while doing so.

Your sarcastic condescending holy then thou comments are based on ignorance – you don’t know me and or how I show grace. You don’t know my heart. You don’t know my history. Just because I am not willing to join in your I’m-white-so-I feel-guilt-party doesn’t mean I don’t show grace. You have a DOUBLE standard that allows for racists comments.

Which “whites”? Germans or Irish or English or Austrian or Russian or Australian or Italian or Greek or French or some of them or all of them?

I happen to be German/Irish with a nice flesh tone. Not white. BTW – I told the pilgrims not to mistreat the Indians but they wouldn’t listen.

Which “whites”? Germans or Irish or English or Austrian or Russian or Australian or Italian or Greek or French or some of them or all of them?

Irish are only quasi guilty – partially because they are from Northern Europe, but quasi because they were discriminated against by whiter whites.

Russians are in the clear because the are Eastern European, not Western Whites.

Italians are in the clear as well… but you German part.

I know one thing for sure, humans mistreated the Indians. You humans are a piece of work!

I would say that as a whole, all humans are guilty of killing each other and engaging in some pretty awful behavior from time to time. We’re all oppressed and we all have the capacity to be oppressors given the right opportunity. I think, though, it becomes almost a self-fulfilling prophecy when a group of people starts defining itself by its victimhood.

“…and when a group of people starts defining itself by the sins of its ancestry.”

Was Adam white?

another thing is recognizing how we benefit from the system of white privilege is not a “feel guilty for your immutable melanin count” tactic.

Nobody is saying anyone should feel bad for being white.
(Well, maybe Thurstin, but I don’t know.)

What I’m trying to highlight is that, fair or not, our whiteness represents something to a people who were mistreated on the basis of their not being white.

They weren’t mistreated on the basis of people simply being broken and evil in some general sense…

There have been significant mistreatments of certain people by other people with a variety of pigmentations. The evil is not inherrant to a particular race, it comes from the human race.

To attach a race to a particular evil is actually to reveal the evil within you. Given the same opportunity, the Indians would have treated the white man identically. Then we could say “You Red men!”.

“But it’s true that particular peoples and races have oppressed, while other peoples and races have been oppressed.”

That is inaccurate. The black race has oppressed each other violently on the African continent. The Chinese and Mongolians, both oriental, have a history of conquering and being conquered.

The American Indians were at war with each other long befor the “whites” came to the continent. The Aztecs had slaves, the Eyptians, the Carthaginains, the Romans, and the Greeks oppressed people both of their own race and other races as well.

Oppression is transracial.

Well said, Rick

The problem is sin…

Not the color of your skin…

The problem is sin…
Not the color of your skin…

Mike, that is a bit oversimplified. Yes, racism of all types is indeed sin and that is the problem. However, racism is in fact about the color of one’s skin.
The white people named the black people a “problem” in Western society. I can’t imagine growing up and being thought of as a “problem” solely because my skin was dark or what that might do to me in my relations with those who have long oppressed, even killed, my ancestors.

Rick, yes, all have sinned. no one would deny that.

“You white people” is not pejorative but is merely anger being expressed for past wrongs. It is an opportunity for “us white people” to seek forgiveness and be agents of healing. For all you know Thurstin could have written that on a day in which he was called a “nigger” by some ignorant white person just because he looked at someone the wrong way.

I find it terrible that some of you are up in arms over being called “white people” and do all you can to distance yourself from the pain our race has caused millions. “George Washington had slaves…but I didn’t” is not good enough. We are ALL guilty. Consider Israel – the sin of one person infected the entire nation and ALL were stained. So are we. We should approach any person who lashes out in hurt, frustration and anger not with judgment but with grace and confession.

Of course, but we need to steer people, especially believers, away from the destructive influences of race hate.

Agreed. But what I am saying is that we must consider the source and the audience. Not to mention there are healthy ways to “steer people” and destructive ways to do it. I am saying the ways here would be destructive.
Rather than attack Thurstin and act like you (Neil) are insulted over being called “white people”, which quite frankly, comes across, given our shared histories, as sounding like, “How dare you! Don’t you know your place, boy!” Rather than reacting like THAT, why not seek to understand where the obvious pain and hurt which causes one to speak in that way comes from? Why not take some responsibility for pains and hurts caused in the past by people who share my skin color and my penchant for racism and see where I could show this particular person in this particular instance that we are not ALL like that and that many of “us white people” do in fact love and cherish people of ALL colors?

You get NO WHERE by instigating further hate by putting up walls and declaring that you are wrong and that you never owned slaves personally so get over it. That is just insulting.

“You white people” is not pejorative but is merely anger being expressed for past wrongs. It is an opportunity for “us white people” to seek forgiveness and be agents of healing. For all you know Thurstin could have written that on a day in which he was called a “nigger” by some ignorant white person just because he looked at someone the wrong way.

I can certainly understand a person being angry or hurt at a racist comment or past wrong, but the fact is that doesn’t give them justification to react in the same spirit. That is what MLK Jr. was all about. That’s why he stood up against groups like the Black Panthers who thought they were justified responding to hate with hate.

As far as having grace for people, I would say that grace doesn’t simply mean you say, “yeah, whatever”. It means you look at the wrong, and realize there’s healing available. Grace is restorative and redemptive, not simply a way of letting things slide.

Phil- see my comment 86. It’s not about letting things slide but about being humble in the face of a perceived insult.

Rick – the problem is that not “all men” ARE the same. Yes, we are all sinners before God in need of Christ but we are not all the same – we are unique and particular and each has a history and a story. We are to celebrate those differences and show others how they might do the same. We need to approach each person as a person and take into consideration how our very presence in their midst might be threatening. Love for others should ask for no less than that.

Rather than attack Thurstin and act like you (Neil) are insulted over being called “white people”, which quite frankly, comes across, given our shared histories, as sounding like, “How dare you! Don’t you know your place, boy!” Rather than reacting like THAT, why not seek to understand where the obvious pain and hurt which causes one to speak in that way comes from? Why not take some responsibility for pains and hurts caused in the past by people who share my skin color and my penchant for racism and see where I could show this particular person in this particular instance that we are not ALL like that and that many of “us white people” do in fact love and cherish people of ALL colors?

What’s amazing is that you’re so quick to jump to defend Thurstin’s charge of racism when you really know nothing about Neil. It would be one thing if you knew some of Neil’s history, but for all you know he could be married to a black person. You can’t assume anymore just because a person is white that they know nothing of the struggle of their brothers and sisters of color.

The church my wife and I are members of 90-95% African American. The thing I love about our church is that though it could easily identify itself as the “black church” in our town, they are not content to do that. Anyone who enters the doors is treated like family and with respect regardless of their color. And this is by people who have the right for legitimate gripes. They have chosen, though, to move beyond that. If they suspected every white person who entered the church of being a racist, it would prevent them from loving that person.

I don’t bring this up to claim that this makes me an expert in race relations or anything, but just to illustrate a point. Yes hurts and pains are real, but God is bigger than all of them, and He wants to help us work through them.

Phil – Is Neil married to a black woman?
Based on our conversations revolving around race in the past (Obama and such) my guess is NO.

All I know is what I read here. Thurstin said “you white people” and a few of you here got all up in arms without even considering where such a statement might come from and how we could respond in grace rather than get all defensive.

In New York we say, “Yous white people”.

From the Ghosts of Mississippi:

“The white man was put here to rule. It says so in the Bible”.

Byron De La Beckwith

From The Godfather:

Moe Greene: You guineas you really make me laugh…

Phil – Is Neil married to a black woman?
Based on our conversations revolving around race in the past (Obama and such) my guess is NO.

I have no clue, really. I don’t think voting for Obama or not has anything to do with anything. I was just bringing up the point that making assumptions about someone based on the limited view we get of him here is rather limited picture.

Furthermore the denigration with the race card and the perceived disgust was a bit knee jerk.

Well it does get old being accused of being a racist every time you disagree with a minority, though.

I DO NOT take responsibility for the attrocities of the past. Sorry, you can take my part if that makes you feel any better.

Such is the seed of any destructive -ism.

To be sure, it doesn’t make me “feel better” but simply, I hope, renders me more humble in the face of the other.

One of the most touching stories I ever read was how Donald Miller and his pals at a secular university set up a confessional booth on campus. The twist? They confessed to these “lost souls” the crimes of the church in the past – the crusades, the racism, the slavery, the hate, the bitterness, the judgmetalism. Sure, Miller and his friends never did any of that themselves – but they knew that as members of the church they were in some sense perceived as guilty. They figured that their task as followers of Christ was to be humble, to actually BARE the cross (even if that includes the sins of others) and ask forgiveness. It changed the hearts of many on their campus.

I try to live in such a way when it comes to matters of race and gender and sexuality. If that is wrong, than I guess I have the entire gospel figured wrongly.

grace and peace

I can “understand” a black person’s pain and we should all reach out in reconciliation and restoration. But to continue a race guilt is to enable that pain to continue. Tethering an entire race to the acts of people long since dead is a form of race hate.

One of the most touching stories I ever read was how Donald Miller and his pals at a secular university set up a confessional booth on campus. The twist? They confessed to these “lost souls” the crimes of the church in the past – the crusades, the racism, the slavery, the hate, the bitterness, the judgmetalism. Sure, Miller and his friends never did any of that themselves – but they knew that as members of the church they were in some sense perceived as guilty. They figured that their task as followers of Christ was to be humble, to actually BARE the cross (even if that includes the sins of others) and ask forgiveness. It changed the hearts of many on their campus.

I actually appreciated that bit from Blue Like Jazz a lot. I have no problem with approaching people in humility, but I think we also have to able to approach them as individuals. It’s like one of my closest African American friends said to me once, “I don’t really care that much what refer to me as (as in black, colored, Africaan American..), but why don’t you start with ‘friend’.”

I just think that if we see people as cause rather than genuine people, we aren’t doing them a favor, either.

Phil, no one is doing anyone a favor when their knee jerk reaction is to take offense, call someone’s remarks “pejorative” and never approach the person as a genuine human being who may have reasons they said what they said (for good or ill).

So yes, I agree with you. I think you agree with what I am saying here, do you not? I hope this isn’t a matter of defending fellow writers.

and everyone applauds the Emperor’s beautiful clothes.

I happen to be completely free of all prejudice, racism, and almost any sin. By next week I will be fully free. I think I understand Chad’s personal and emotional involvement with the issue, and with that I will show forbearance.

Thurstin’s use of ‘you white people’ is something said around this home (where he spends much of his time) even towards us…it is not reflective of hate, but it is a little sarcasm used to mask what I believe is some hurt.

As a white family, we have adopted Thurstin along with other college students in this community.

I have seen the pain of the Indigenous people in the reservations, but I cannot even begin to truly understand it. What largely white people have done to them in their past and even in the present is a real wound and a scar that should be dealt with.

Thats what grace is, Jerry. I think you might be missing this part. Jesus never sinned, yet he bore the penalty of our sin on his body on our behalf. You may have never owned a slave or put an indigenous person on a reservation, but demonstrated grace could break down barriers created by those who did. Taking on the sins of our fathers could go a long way in restoring trust, and opening doors to the Gospel. It did in Thurstin’s life.

MG – The acts themselves are not equal, but as I said given the same opportunities every race would act similarly.

Chad – I will add “prickly” to the adjective “slippery”.

MG – Yep, I’m sorry it happened, it was profoundly wrong, and I vehemently stand against all forms of prejudice today. I am sorry for what has happened in years gone by, however I am not personally responsible.

But I will reach out for healing and reconciliation. I believe the response to Thurston’s comment was in the believer to believer context.

Strawman rant alert.

Chad, you are becoming ridiculous with these strawmen.

This thread has really made me appreciate how prophetic the Stuff White People site like actually is…

Chad,

I understand racism if you have read the thread…. yet, am I to blame if someone who had white skin own slaves and I never have or none of my family did? Also, what about the black slave traders who captured other black tribesman to sell them to trade slavers?

Racism is wrong… I can understand hatred and mistrust… but racism is wrong… in any form.

I also do not believe someone should just wither and die as they play the victim. If you studied the Native Americans and looked at the story of Chief Joseph, you would see a great people who endorsed great hardship. Yet, their story is tragic, but to say that me being white is wrong and it hurts them…. makes no sense.

Why not instead teach each other we are all wrong and that we may need a new start? Why does skin color have to factor in things at all?

I have been to many reservations… there is great corruption within their own tribes that need addressing. While some in their community literally starve others grow fat from the money coming in from their casinos… why do they allow prejudice within their own nations? Why do they let some families suffer while others grew rich? Is that all the white man’s fault?

There is a lot of work to be done… and hatred wrapped in racism does not help… it is like the fat guy in the mirror who complains he is fat and instead of exercising, stuffs another big mac in his mouth… complaining is easy… growing up and working on solutions is tough.

iggy

Who is not interested in finding the source of someone’s pain? Who pretends that racism does not exist? Who is turning a deaf ear to people’s pain?

No one here.

And this is not about “white guilt” or anything like that. It is about adopting a posture towards other people that exhibits an awareness of the affect my presence has upon other (whether they be black, female, gay, or any other person). As Christians we ought to be aware how our bodies can and do elicit certain responses/reactions from other and at least attempt to empathize with where those reactions may be coming from. I can choose to get offended by them and rant, “It’s not MY fault!” or, “Hey, I’M not to blame!” or “How dare you say that to ME!” or I can stop, listen and pray, all while considering that this is not about ME, but about something deeper. Perhaps I can be an agent of healing for this person rather than an instigator or perpetuator of further pain.

Phil -

That was an amazing article. How true.

As a rule, white people strongly prefer to get offended on behalf of other people.

It is also valuable to know that white people spend a significant portion of their time preparing for the moment when they will be offended. They read magazines, books, and watch documentaries all in hopes that one day they will encounter a person who will say something offensive. When this happens, they can leap into action with quotes, statistics, and historical examples. Once they have finished lecturing another white person about how it’s wrong to use the term “black” instead of “African-American,” they can sit back and relax in the knowledge that they have made a difference.

White people also get excited at the opportunity to be offended at things that are sexist and/or homophobic. Both cases offering ample opportunities for lectures, complaints, graduate classes, lengthy discussions and workshops. All of which do an excellent job of raising awareness among white people who hope to change their status from “not racist” to “super not racist.”

Another thing worth noting is that the threshold for being offended is a very important tool for judging and ranking white people. Missing an opportunity to be outraged is like missing a reference to Derrida-it’s social death.

So true…

Iggy, did you read my comment in 138? This has nothing to do with guilt or “wallering.” It’s about being humble. It’s rather simple, really. I do not see why there is such opposition to it here.

But it’s true that particular peoples and races have oppressed, while other peoples and races have been oppressed.

That’s just reality.

A reality no one is denying.

For all you know Thurstin could have written that on a day in which he was called a “nigger” by some ignorant white person just because he looked at someone the wrong way.

So, one wrong excuses another – I get it now…

So let’s take another look at the original comment:

With you white people and what you have done to enslave my people through the reservation system, the introduction of alcohol, the welfare system (to make us dependent on you) etc. It is a wonder there is hardly a whimper on that. My people have a name for the white man- who many equate with the white Christian unfortunately- Wascitchu-

It is pronounced-we-cheat-you

So the fact that all of us white people are broad-brushed as racists is meaningless? I’m sorry but that just doesn’t fly with me.

To paraphrase President Obama, sometimes you have to use a scalpel instead of a knife. Stereotyping all white people isn’t moving any closer to solving any problem.

I guess I’m just ignorant and unenlightened, though…

Stereotyping all white people isn’t moving any closer to solving any problem.

But it is acceptable… because, well, we’re white after all.

People are saying that it’s important to hear and be sensitive to the historical facts and legacy of what our whiteness represents to some people who have a communal experience of hurt precisely because they were not white.

I agree 100%… not one has denied this. But this does not excuse the continued use of racists comments against whites.

if it’s wrong in one direction, it’s wrong in all directions.

Good God. The obtuseness of some of you on this issue is stunning to me. I think I am so upset because I expect more from Christians or because I see this as a microcosm of the Church as a whole. Why is the most segregated hour in America 11AM on Sunday?

Yeah – we’re all a bunch of racists – except the enlightened ones of course.

if it’s wrong in one direction, it’s wrong in all directions.

Not “wrong” in the same sense or intensity, Neil. Now who is painting with a broad brush?

“wrongness” and “rightness” find their meaning in community, not as some abstract universal norm. Thurstin using “you white people” is NOTHING when held up against the centuries of violence and abuse perpetrated upon his race by ours. You diminish and dismiss his particular history and pain when you try to say one wrong is the same as any other and should be viewed in the same light.

Yeah – we’re all a bunch of racists

Actually, we are. The sooner you recognize that about yourself the sooner the world can move on to true reconciliation rather than these smoke screens we have constructed.

The sooner you recognize that about yourself the sooner the world can move on to true reconciliation rather than these smoke screens we have constructed.

I have had enough of your morally superior stance and your continued condescension. You know NOTHING about what I recognize.

Thurstin using “you white people” is NOTHING when held up against the centuries of violence and abuse perpetrated upon his race by ours….

This may be true, but it ignores the point. My point is that one person should not talk to another person in the manner he did – regardless of the histories of their particular races.

BB?

If calling it “white guilt” (something I specifically said this is NOT about) makes you feel better about your lack of empathy, than have at it.

What, Rick? I see no “superiority” of any race…

Chad,

Earlier you expressed surprise in my responses saying I was usually a reasonable man – or something akin to that.

And I realize you are correct. I have responded to your insults, accusations, and condescension in a manner that I ought not have done.

I cannot make any promises as to my responses in the future – I can only speak to those which are now in the past.

Neil

Or perhaps:

“Thurstin, I can fully appreciate where a comment like that is coming from. So that both of us may be part of the solution rather than the problem, may I suggest that blanket statements against any race should be avoided, and just as you would not like such a statement said against your race, neither do I.”

just as you would not like such a statement said against your race, neither do I.

Neil, face the facts: YOUR race has NEVER been enslaved by HIS race!

YOU have never been enslaved and treated lower than dogs merely because you are NOT WHITE!

Seriously, if you cannot handle someone calling you “you white people” than can you imagine what Thurstin and his ancestors must have felt?

Chad,

Your comment #178 shows me that true reconciliation and equality of respect are not what you are seeking.

Seriously, if you cannot handle someone calling you “you white people” than can you imagine what Thurstin and his ancestors must have felt?

It’s not an issue of not being able to handle it – it should not have been said. And It’s not just the “You white people” – it’s the blanket accusation that followed. The fact that you are willing to excuse this shows me you are not interested in mutual respect.

you are not interested in mutual respect.

Mutual respect will never happen as long as either party remains blind to their own culpability.

But you don’t see a need for that. You probably have a black friend, right? That excuses you.

Chad,

I am sorry you continue to ridicule and condescend to me… I am not sure what you are seeking, but (unlike you) I am not going to assume I know.

Thurstin’s comment is historically accurate, and even represents an ongoing reality – in that you are correct. But it is obvious that you do not seek to solve the problem through mutual respect.

But that does not excuse it.

#175 – And so is your strawman, which is what my joke was supposed point out. In some ways, Cahd is arguing that the white man is more evil than other races, and I suggest allowing Thurston to say things like that without being challenged is counter productive to his spiritual growth.

I would never allow my children to demean other races.

In many ways males are superior.

Do you not realize that our history is marked with naming the non-white people “savages” and setting out to exterminate or convert them?

I don’t think that anyone here would deny that. I just don’t see that all white people from all time need to pay some collective penance for atrocities committed by or ancestors. Even it some penance were possible, it could never be enough right the wrongs.

I wasn’t personally offended by Thurstin, but it is simply factually wrong. I just don’t see how a case can be made that all white people that comment here are personally culpable somehow for the state of affairs on reservations.

In some sense, the fact that the stereotyping goes both ways is symptomatic of why the planet is perpetually war-torn. If we are constantly seeing a specific group when we look at an individual, it’s easy for us to harbor feelings of hatred and bitterness toward a group. It’s a bit a harder when we actually start dealing with people as people.

Chad,
I have to say you’re little morally superior quips in this thread are disappointing. I actually have quite a few black friends and most of them would be offended to hear Thurstin’s comment. They’d be even more offended to hear yours.

Thurstin calling us “you white people”, while loaded with wrong responses, in no way is comparable to the derogatory use of the “n-word” or calling Thurstin a “dirty Injun” or whatever…

why?

Because there is a systematic history behind it…and even if, given the chance, “they” would have done it too…well…that’s not how our history played out.

Nope, don’t buy it…

The hatred that burns in the heart of one person for another comes ultimately from the same source regardless of their skin color. Sure some bitterness may be more justified than others, but it comes down do it, bitterness is bitterness.

Now that’s not to say that steps shouldn’t be taken to address systematic racism and underlying issues inherent to our society, but if we try to justify hatred it will end destroying us. This is why MLK was so committed to non-violence resistance as the only way to address systematic racism. Resistance has to be done in the opposite spirit.

He accepts what Thurstin said and encourages him to continue in this bitterness.

Had just a second to check the progress only to read this. *sigh* Neil, you aren’t this stupid. Seriously.

If you need to, go back and reread. There is no way you can say I am encouraging Thurstin to “continue in this bitterness.”

Jerry, to answer your question, no, I am not.

What I am seeing is white men getting bent out of shape when a black man says “you white people” and rather than considering where statements like that come from they choose instead to get offended.

nc #191 – I agree 100%. Phil, he’s right on this.

As for the OP, why is it we can say this….

A potential pandemic flu virus is sweeping across North America…and there’s hardly a whimper from the ‘Christian’ ‘right’.
There is ongoing violence and war in Darfur…and there’s hardly a whimper from the ‘christian’ ‘right’.
Two Coptic Christians in Egypt were shot dead over Easter…and there’s hardly a whimper from the ‘christian’ ‘right’.
An earthquake killed 150 people in Italy…and there’s hardly a whimper from the ‘christian’ ‘right.’
War continues in Afghanistan and may be spreading to Africa…and there’s hardly a whimper from the ‘christian’ ‘right’.
A gunman went wild killing 14 people in New York…and there’s hardly a whimper from the ‘christian’ ‘right’.
A human rights activist is missing in China, likely being held for torture…and there’s hardly a whimper from the ‘christian’ ‘right’.
Over 87,000 Iraqi’s have been killed in violence since 2005…and there’s hardly a whimper from the ‘christian’ ‘right’.
75 in Iraq were killed in homicide bombings…and there’s hardly a whimper from the ‘christian’ ‘right’.

….which paints all of the “Christian right” as uncaring and we all nod and applaud, saying how awful. However, Thurstin, a black man with a particular history says “you white people” in a passing comment and everyone jumps on him and can’t wait to point out how racially charged such talk is and how mortified they are that they would be lumped together with such vile “sinners” as racists.

And I am the one with the double standard?

To answer my own question, could it be it is because we all recognize there is some truth behind Jerry’s accusations? Surely not EVERYONE in the Christian right is silent on those issues but we don’t mind Jerry making those comments. Or maybe we should?

Anyways, if you were part of the Christian right and yet had a social conscious you might, when encountering Jerry’s post, respond with something like: Look, I realize that the Christian right comes off looking that way. It is hard to imagine them as any different and I can see why you would think that. How have you seen this at work and how might you and I bring glory to Christ without thinking about right or left?

Bottom line is this:
When a black person says, “you white people” the CRN writers respond with:
Hey! How rude! That’s pejorative! That’s racist!

I think we should respond with:
I can see why you would say that. We have given you more than enough reason to hate us. How can I help change that perception?

Can any of you honestly look at this and say your way is the way of Christ?

*and by “CRN writers” I am meaning the ones involved so far in this discussion* Of course, Rick can include himself there.

I think we should respond with:
I can see why you would say that. We have given you more than enough reason to hate us. How can I help change that perception?

Perhaps:
I can see why you would say that. We have given you more than enough reason to hate us, but talk like this only perpetuates the problem. How can I help change that perception?

Chad – in all honesty it is obvious you are passionate about this isssue. So are some of us, but your passion seems to project an unfair assessment of why some were taken back by Thurston’s inappropriate phrase. No one here would be ungracious or withous understanding concerning the things he deals with.

Again, I take no offense to the white people comment, but that kind of labelling surely indicates an issue, which does not mean it is not inappropriate though.

Thurstin is indigenous, not african american.

And many of you missed the point.

It was a bit immature, but I can assure you not mean spirited to say ‘you white people’

I know its hard, but even if we are not guilty can we extend a little grace?

Rick, you are right, it is something I am very passionate about. But it is also something I feel very strongly that ALL Christians should be passionate about. We can say we are understanding and gracious towards those that have systemic hurts in their past but our words and actions are what prove it. By getting bent out of shape when a black person says something like “you white people” is insensitive on our part and reveals the plank we may still have in our own eyes.

To use an analogy, what if a woman came into your midst who had been raped repeatedly and has been cheated on by every man she has known and she said, “all men are bastards.” Now, we may all agree that in reality not ALL men are bastards (but the count may be close). However, I would hope our response as Christians would not be to tell her how wrong she is to say such a thing or how offended I am as a man to hear that but rather, to empathize. In this context, what she said is not “wrong.” She is merely expressing true emotion and pain.

Why is this so hard for some of us to grasp?

You know what? Nevermind. I’m sorry I got involved in this thread on any level. Chad, there are many black people who would believe the view you are espousing only serves to further entrap them.
But it doesn’t matter, what they think. It only matters what you and your friends think. I’m sure you’ll have a witty response with some sort of morally superior quip for me. I”ll take it and then I’m done with this thread.

To use an analogy, what if a woman came into your midst who had been raped repeatedly and has been cheated on by every man she has known and she said, “all men are bastards.” Now, we may all agree that in reality not ALL men are bastards (but the count may be close). However, I would hope our response as Christians would not be to tell her how wrong she is to say such a thing or how offended I am as a man to hear that but rather, to empathize. In this context, what she said is not “wrong.” She is merely expressing true emotion and pain.

While I would likely excuse the woman in the story, when her great, great grandchild voluntarily walked into a conversation and said “all men are bastards”, I’d likely tell them it’s time to get over it and move on.

NC – I see “the rez” as an ongoing issue that still needs sensitivity (see #141).

I think it’s probably not practical to give Oklahoma, the Dakotas and Montana back, at this point, but what the US has done (and still continues doing) is nothing short of embarrassing. It has nothing to do with race, though (at least any more), and more to do with “manifest destiny” and its repercussions…

Grace is what I am talking about. Grace is not about sitting around letting someone live in error so that we can feel all PC.

Grace is looking for the best of another and sometimes speaking things that may sound harsh… but it is the truth.

I lived on a rez for a while…. I have seen a lot of things…. the bad and the good.

I understand the bitterness but bitterness will only hurt the person who has it… and most the time the one they are bitter against has no idea… or if they do will only respond in a negative way. So the circle is unhealthy and sick.

All I am saying is we all have the responsibility to stop the circle and sickness.

iggy

Chris L, your point in 220 is not actually analogous. Unless you are convinced that racism does not exist today.
To tell the black man to “just get over it” when they may in fact have just been the brunt of a racial slur is a bit insensitive, don’t you think?

Chad – the racism is no longer institutional, but where it exists, it is at the individual level. Are some folks asshats? Yup. Is it a product of institutional racism, or individual stupidity/bigotry? The latter…

That is why 220 is analogous…

Chris L – so you would excuse the woman in the story who is NOT part of institutionalized abuse but not a black person who has experienced only individual abuse.

doesn’t add up

All analogies break down at some point, Chad, particularly when coupled w/ a lack of charity.

You got us all. We’re all racists.

Sorry. I’ll get out my sackcloth and ashes so that I can feel better about myself.

You know, I once heard that the Irish have some Egyptian blood in them, and since I’ve got a bit of Irish blood in me, I’d best wallow in self-pity for their institutional slavery of the Jews 4000 years ago, as well.

Except, I think there’s probably some Jewish blood in there as well, so I’d probably just better be at war w/ self-guilt for my slavery of my ancestors.

And then there’s the Quaker blood- they didn’t enslave anyone, but they probably discriminated against someone…

Oh wait!

“Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.” (Deut 24:16)

Nevermind – I think I’ll go the personal responsibility route and claim responsibility for my sins, instead of offering apologies for things I’ve not done. Granted, I’ll still feel empathy – as I should – but I won’t have to try to assuage myself with false sorrow for false guilt.

My ancestry is English, Scottish, Jewish, German and Cherokee Indian. I think I’ve got some major hating to start. Maybe I’ll just beat myself up.

It’s really sad that you are all taking this as license to just hate anyone. You just aren’t listening. THIS IS ALL ABOUT HOW WE RECEIVE THE OTHER IN OUR MIDST WHO MAY BE WOUNDED!
Good grief.

I am trying to imagine Jesus saying to the leper, widow, orphan, sinner, prostitute, tax collector, whites, blacks, you, me or whomever, “get over it.”

Chris, remind me not to send any minority your way for counseling.

ncgal,
I don’t disagree with that. In fact, in an earlier comment I said something about allowing discussion to take place before rebuke as a means to allow space for repentance. And, an argument could be made that would say this is not the best medium to accomplish what each of us would hope to accomplish (i.e. cyberspace). To get to a place where we can heal racial wounds (or any deep, systemic wounds) we need to at the very least begin with empathy and humility. That was sorely lacking in response to Thurstin’s comment. Read comments 210 and 211. Neil offered a very viable way to approach someone like Thurstin and I agreed with him. Yet I think he and all of you would agree that what Neil proposed did NOT happen here. My question is, why? and my hope is that it won’t happen again like that.

on another note, where in NC are you? I’m in Oxford.

peace

You are not oppressed by being called occasionally in frustration “you white people”…

sorry..

It’s racially charged, but again, there’s no one to one correspondence between that comment and the systematic reality that still affects some communities.

In the abstract, yes, it’s all wrong, etc.

But in real life, there’s a big difference.

“you white people” doesn’t represent years and years of fallout of racist systems.

I am not a racist. I have prejudices and perspectives and subjective prisms through which I see things, but I am not a racist.

And see there is what we are actually talking about Chad.

In comment 241, you lump all of us (whoever “us” is, I assume you mean white people, though non of us here have owned slaves and most could trace our lineage back to historically “oppressed” people) into the category of oppressor.

See you are talking about making all of us responsible for the victimhood of another race. I refuse that charge. I refuse to be accused of a crime that was not committed by me, was committed long ago and especially since my ancestors may have been the ones who were oppressed, not the ones doing the oppressing.

Now as for your post in comment 243, THAT I can agree with, for the most part.

And at the end of the day Chad, I still will call you brother and wish you blessings.

I was raised in an unsaved home but I never heard one racial slur – ever. My mother would visit a black pastor in the area, get the names and ages of children in a black family that would not be having Christmas, and we would buy and wrap and deliver them to the pastor to give to that family.

We were lost, but we were not racists. My own children have never heard one word of prejudice and they have heard me preach against it. Half of my elders at one church would not stay after Sunday service as I married a black man and a white woman.

I am many things but I am not a racist.

The prevailing attitude among most white Christians these days (as evidenced on this site) is to tell black people “Look, you don’t say anything bad about us and we won’t say anything bad about you. Just get over the past, Ok? It’s time to forgive and forget. Move on. It’s ‘unchristian’ of you to hold that against us. I had nothing to do with it. I am not responsible for what my ancestors did to yours. Lets just forget it ever happened.”

How has that worked for us? Today the most segregated hour in America is 11AM on Sunday. With rare exceptions, blacks worship with blacks, whites with whites, indians with indians, hispanics with hispanics. Our unwillingness to be humble to one another and penchant for distancing ourselves at all cost from any culpability (It’s not MY fault!) has only served to make people shy away and circle the wagons.

That is not the Kingdom of Heaven, folks.

I married a Puerto Rican woman.

I am free from my own sin, and free from the sins of others. I am responsible for restoration and reconciliation and compassion, but I have no connection to former or present racism. In Christ, I am not white.

If Thurston feels emotional pain, lashing out at others only intensifies those feelings.

The reality is, getting back to the post, is that there are major issues that we can be ‘whimpering’ about, and those are issues of justice that our God is concerned with.

The most important issue of justice is the act that God did through Christ Jesus on the cross, taking our sins upon himself and replacing them with his righteousness.

And this makes us all brothers if we are in Christ Jesus, brothers from another mother.

That does not remove the hurt and the stain of sin. While I am not racist, our countrymen in our history have done very specific and hurtful things in the name of god- such as slavery and manifest destiny. And it was largely white people who perpetrated these wrongs, because they were the people in power.

I am not speaking of reparations, nor of changing anything major (though it would be nice) I am not speaking about government at all. But individual Christians desiring to open lines of communication with those downtrodden and oppressed by various forces whether government or otherwise in order that the grace of God may be extended to those people. This take humility, and even taking on blame that is not right to even be laid at our feet, like Christ did for us at the cross.

Can we do no less?

While I agree that the “we are all racist” tag is a bit harsh, I’m also of in the inclination that it’s (fallen) human nature to struggle with racism.

When people say that they don’t have a racist bone in their body, I believe that as much as I believe it when people say that don’t struggle with pride.

Racism, like pride, is something we don’t shake in this life.

Not necessarily endorsing Avenue “Q” – or the song – but this all reminds me of this particular number…

Rick,
Interesting thought. Perhaps you could write an argument based on your above post which debunks original sin and argues that sin is merely learned behavior. We are all, in our natural state, saints, who truly want the best for people different from us. When we enter a room of all sorts of people our natural inclination is never to huddle together with like bodies. You have to learn to do that.

I don’t believe the murdered white civil rights workers were racist, or Dr. King, or white African missionaries, or many racially mixed marriages, or many who adopt children of different races, there are many people who are not racist, there are many more who avoid exhibiting their latent racism, and then there are people who are racist.

I am not a racist. I am not a pedophile.

Uncle.

I never denied that, Phil. In fact, at some point in this thread I affirmed that.

I never denied that, Phil. In fact, at some point in this thread I affirmed that.

Well, we’re probably not as far off in our view as we originally thought then.

I got to add a sort of ironic addendum to this conversation, though. Last night, the senior pastor at our church asked to meet with me and my wife, and he asked us to consider becoming campus pastors there.

We haven’t given a final answer yet, but we both feel confirmation in our spirits that this is where God is leading us. So, probably next fall we will be heading up (not all by ourselves, thank God) a ministry that is predominantly minority. So I don’t want to be flippant to any of these concerns. I do realize that everyone has their own perspective, and God has used a lot of different types of people in my life.

So the long and short of it is, if you could remember us in your prayers, we would appreciate it.

Phil, that is awesome. Obviously those around you recognize special gifts and graces about you and your wife. Praying.

peace.

Wow. I’m black, and I’m glad not to have been a part of this. And though there is much I could say, I’m going to refrain for now.

THE COLD WITHIN
By James Patrick Kinney

Six humans trapped by happenstance
In dark and bitter cold
Each one possessed a stick of wood,
Or so the story’s told.

Their dying fire in need of logs,
The first woman held hers back.
For on the faces around the fire,
She noticed one was black.

The next man looking cross the way,
Saw one not of his church,
And couldn’t bring himself to give
The fire his stick of birch.

The third one sat in tattered clothes,
He gave his coat a hitch.
Why should his log be put to use,
To warm the idle rich?

The rich man just sat back and thought
Of the wealth he had in store.
And how to keep what he had earned
From the lazy, shiftless poor.

The black man’s face bespoke revenge
As the fire passed from sight,
For all he saw in his stick of wood
Was a chance to spite the white.

The last man of this forlorn group
Did naught except for gain
Giving only to those who gave
Was how he played the game.

The logs held tight in death’s still hands
Was proof of human sin.
They didn’t die from the cold without,
They died from the cold within.

wow, Sandman. I had never read that poem before. Powerful. And chilling.

A profound poem.

Gary Ridgway, the Green River Killer, murdered close to 60 women. At his sentencing, family and friends were given the opportunity to address him. Almost all of them railed at him, some wishing he would burn in hell, and Ridgway sat emotionless and stared at them.

Only one man stood in front of Ridgeway and because of his beliefs he said “You are forgiven”. At that point, Ridgeway broke down and wept for the only time during his trial. Ridgeway had never asked for forgiveness.

There is power in forgiveness, and forgiveness is the hand delt to the wronged.

Today the most segregated hour in America is 11AM on Sunday. With rare exceptions, blacks worship with blacks, whites with whites, indians with indians, hispanics with hispanics.

I used to think this was a bad thing, a shame… but the more I study culture, I’m not so sure anymore.

If someone refuses to worship with another race, obviously that is sin and racism. But ethnicity, races, etc. have different styles, preferences, even heart languages – and it’s only natural for the proverbial birds of the same feather to flock together.

And I want to know who is posting in the name of Pastorboy – the comments have been relevant, well thought, tempered, – not once in this thread have I wanted to…

I sorta mean that as a compliment, although it probably doesn’t look like one.

It really depends on the relationship.

Bingo. And it is this that was sorely lacking when Thurstin got jumped on for his comment.

The first comments after Thurstin’s were defensive and i think this is understandable (remember, we are to try and understand where the other person is coming from).

I think most (if not all) the jumping was on you, Chad, when you started excusing his comment.

Seems as things have gotten out of systems, we’ve actually started communicating.

I think it would be a beautiful thing to blend a Chinese service with an American one. Scriptures could be read in both languages, songs sung from each tradition, sermons interpreted and alternating between languages. It would be very difficult for anyone to leave worship on Sunday and look upon their Chinese neighbor on Monday as someone strange or “other.”

276: The church I attend opens itself on different evenings for services in a number of languages by other Christian congregations and ministries, which is important to remember when an English service can’t be very edifying to one unfamiliar with the language. It would be like me going to the service spoken only in Chinese. Necessity sometimes requires segregation.

The baptist church I grew out of looked like an auto show in the parking lot and a fashion show on the inside. Very offensive for a woman to wear pants. I can’t see myself being a very happy member there with such a focus on externals. But many still attend those types of churches.

Ingrid did a Crosstalk show a few years ago about this “most segregated hour” (I use quotes here because I usually go to the Saturday evening service or the 9 a.m. Sunday service). If I recall, she was asking the why question. One man called in to say that blacks needed to embrace Reformed Theology and the KJV. While that’s not for me, it seems to work for others.

…We are woefully short-sighted when we think “our way” is the best way for us to worship. Some of the most glorious times I have had in the Spirit have been when I stepped out of my comfort zone and worshipped alongside people different from I in a tradition I was not used to. Looking around I thought, “ahh, this is the Kingdom of God.”

As have I Chad, and no one said our way is the best – let’s leave that to the ADM’s – it’s what’s most natural.

279 – you seem determined to leave yourself a loophole, Neil. I’ll let you have it.

Just when I thought we were converging on common ground you get all high and mighty with your superior moral stance again.

What you see as a loop-hole, I see as mutual respect.

Why is no one still wimpering over the continued destruction of the indigenous people of this country?

We are racked by unemployment, poor water/utilities, alcoholism, and the worst land in the nation. Pine Ridge, as an example, has no natural resources that are of value (unless you count scrubbrush) yet this is the only place many of these people have ever known.

White people- White Christians are perceived to be part of the problem rather than part of the solution. What do you propose?

I think we all agree that the injustices on the reservations are horrible, and that not enough attention has been shown them. As far as a solution, I don’t know. I guess I tend to think that solutions to social issues work best when the change agents can work from within. Maybe God will work through you in ways you can’t even imagine to bring about some form of change.

I would love to worship side by side with white brothers on the reservation, but that is rare to see. All to often they come as leaders and not as friends.

Agreed. And I think that gets back to what I was saying earlier. I think that when change comes from within, it is seen less as some rich white guy telling people, “here’s what you need to do”. So maybe we should ask you, what are ways in which people like us could be a genuine blessing in your situation?

No, Neil, what I am saying is that such a discussion can come but maybe give it a few sentences. Saying “I’m sorry, but hey, I had nothing to do with it” is back handed. Trying to coerce someone’s respect of us, by insisting that we have done nothing wrong, doesn’t work.

Why not instead just say “I’m sorry for what our people have done to you” and just let the Spirit work? Let our actions show that we have had nothing personally to do with it.

Neil – OK.

Neil,

You are my brother, as is anyone who calls Christ Savior.

I have nothing against the white race, as God has demonstrated love to me through His Son Jesus and His servant Pastor John and our church here in town.

When I speak of my people, there is national wrong that must be righted. And I do not believe that can come from government. I believe it can only come from God, and therefore must come from individual Christians who bear the burden of reaching my people. But they must come from a place of humility, and they must know that they carry baggage (right or wrong)when they approach my people.

Chad,

One of the things I appreciate so much about our church is the variety of worship service styles available on any one weekend. We are all members of the same family, Christ’s, but we are of different generations, personalities, and lifestyles. I go to the service that allows my heart to sing, as well as my mind. I serve and worship throughout the week mostly with my head. I make decisions daily on how to reach out to the lost or wandering, how to meet them where they are. On Sundays, I like to be able to use my heart more. That “requires” a certain style. As I have grown older, I have gained a larger appreciation for our differences. Differences were created by God, and inherently require different solutions and choices. I have noticed a growing trend in our culture that believes that multiculturalism is the perfect way, and requires that we all become like each other. Much of what you have talked about in this thread sounds like that, and I wholeheartedly reject that idea. I praise God that we have the freedom to worship with others most like us. On the same hand, there are also those who choose to worship with different experiences, which is what I think you might like, which is also ok. That is your personality. But just as you think it is good to learn from new experiences, I need that one unchanging (mostly) worship style that provides a grounding in my otherwise chaotic life. This can all be applied to reject the idea of the “most segregated hour” being an issue of racism.

296:

That’s what I’ve been saying this whole darn thread…

Thurstin,

What you stated as reconciliation is far from what the bible teaches… in fact it is contrary to the bible teachings. whoever taught you that was wrong.

Please email me if you want to continue this conversation but a one sided reconciliation with conditions is not biblical reconciliation.

iggy

Zan,
As MG and NC have already noted, diversity in worship and multiculturalism has nothing to do with becoming like everyone else.

It sounds odd to me to pit a centering, non-chaotic time of worship against a multicultural, diverse time of worship.

Part of the problem, as I see it, is we have made worship about a commodity. Not saying you see it as this way, but if we truly believe that worship is not about us but about God, and that God will bless our worship in truth and spirit, than we should embrace the desire God has that all nations one day worship together.

We can celebrate our uniqueness together. What an amazing image to the world of what God is doing if we come together as all tribes, languages and races join hands together in singing to our Lord? How could this be anything but a beautiful turn from the “chaotic life” we all have Monday thru Sat?

peace.

305….I don’t…totally different culture, totally different style…different personalities and needs and cultures are not a sin.

As long as we see other believers as a particular culture, rather than having a particular culture, we will always be far from unified in the Spirit.

That is a profound nuance, however Paul says he knows no one in the flesh and there is no earthly identity in Jesus Christ. We should, we must see each other in Christ and reject the dividing particulars that hinder true fellowship.

Only then can we appreciate each others gifts, callings, and personal traits in the context of adding to the richness of Christ’s earthly body. The same cultural features that can divide can also be used of the Spirit to add wonderful demensions to the divine magnum opus of God’s amazing church family.

I don’t have to experience some else’s worship to be able to love them and see them as my Christian family. I don’t even have to really learn about it. Now, if I want to minister to them specifically, then I need to learn and experience, and there is no doubt that doing such will enhance my ability to pray for them and minister to them, but that isn’t necessarily my calling….maybe I am led into one sub-culture over another…that is ok, too. I can still love and act with grace…Even in ignorance, believe it or not

God desires that “all nations” and “every tribe, tongue and people” worship together around the throne. Who are you or I to say we know better? Who are we to say, “Um, God, you don’t understand. We have our thing, they have their thing. It’s tidy. I don’t need to worship with them to love them. I can do it from my side of the street. God, your gonna mess things up if we really worship the way you envision humanity to worship. We’ll have to get interpreters, learn new music, new prayers, new liturgies, heck, this may extend our worship time beyond noon! Let us handle this down here, God. You can direct worship when we get there.”

That is in no way what I mean, please don’t be obtuse. Nothing on this earth is tidy. Especially me. People are messy. But… I don’t have to be in the same building with them to worship “with” other Christians. I don’t even have to be singing the same songs to be worshiping with them. If all people around the world are singing a different song to the same God, then I am worshiping with them all. In a way that comes from the depth of my personality, that God designed specifically for me.

about 313…

Do you think that every opportunity for interaction with other people is a calling to focus your life/ministry on them or their needs? As someone who has, in the past, had a tendency to overextend herself, I resist that thought, because I recognize that I am a woman of limitations. Does it mean that I can’t meet an immediate need of someone? no, of course not, but that doesn’t require knowing/experiencing how they worship on Sunday mornings.

same question: Will there be segregated worship in heaven? If your answer to that question is “no” than on what grounds are you trying to justify it on earth?

You don’t care what worship looks like in heaven and I am projecting my preferences onto what God desires. From Genesis to Revelation God speaks of “all nations, every tongue, every tribe” together, worshiping. This is really all about your preferences – what you want. To be honest, if we all worshipped according to our preferences it would look exactly like the vision you describe – each to his or her own – just so long as you “feel” good about it. Heck, if it were up to me and my preferences alone than yeah, I would opt for your vision. It’s much easier. Less messy. Less chaotic.

Zan, in order to preserve the impression I have long had of you that you are wise and full of spiritual insight, I am going to assume your desire to justify segregated worship is not because you really believe that to be God’s will but because you can’t bring yourself to publicly agree with me. Your husband hasn’t in nearly a year, so I guess I shouldn’t expect you to.

Zan or anyone: Will there be segregated worship in heaven?

Yes, but that’s because all will be able to fit around the throne. Here on earth, it is a matter of travel, logistics, community, preference, etc. Also, “segregated worship” is a loaded term, which suggests that ’segregation’ is somehow forced/coerced/etc.

In reality, all churches are ’segregated’, based on their location (primarily) and the surrounding community. If a church is in a community that is 95% white and the church is 95% white, is it “segregated” – or does it just reflect the community it’s sitting in? Most “segregation” in the US is voluntary, and is more based on location/denomination/demographic trends/worship style/etc. Nothing is “sinful” about it – communities form around common interests, so it is natural that communities would form with some sort of “segregation”, voluntarily.

“I don’t need to worship with them to love them. I can do it from my side of the street. God, your gonna mess things up if we really worship the way you envision humanity to worship. We’ll have to get interpreters, learn new music, new prayers, new liturgies, heck, this may extend our worship time beyond noon! Let us handle this down here, God. You can direct worship when we get there.”

Blah, blah, blah – all pretty much fabricated (and false) description of motive.

Heck, if we wanted to be like the first century church, we’d not worship more than a mile or so from our house, since that’s as far as we could walk on the Sabbath. If we had a house church, we’d really be segregated, since many of the house churches we’ve found via archaeology were communal living arrangements.

“All nations” only worshiped (as commanded in the Hebrew Scriptures) during the three pilgrimage festivals. Aside from that, it was the local church community.

Zan: But… I don’t have to be in the same building with them to worship “with” other Christians. I don’t even have to be singing the same songs to be worshiping with them. If all people around the world are singing a different song to the same God, then I am worshiping with them all. In a way that comes from the depth of my personality, that God designed specifically for me.

Exactly!

I would also note that we are only referring to corporate worship here. Since we are in constant worship – 24/7 – we do “cross the street” all the time – in our work, our shopping, our play, our schools, etc., etc. Just because we spend a couple of hours a week corporately worshiping with our local church community doesn’t imply any sort of “sin” if there are demographic differences between the churches. Now – if we self-segregated ourselves from the local (”secular”) community around us the other 6.9 days/week, that would likely be a problem. But most Christians I know don’t do that…

Chad: Zan, I’m sorry, but that is not the biblical vision for worship.

Wow – Mr. Morally Grey can certainly become black/white and intolerant on the strangest of issues.

We may certainly be worshipping in spirit with the body of Christ the world over, but that does not excuse us from our mandate to build bridges between the nations and actually rub elbows.

I didn’t realize that “building bridges between nations” was the purpose of corporate worship. Rubbing elbows happens all the time – even if not that much during an hour on Sunday morning.

The bottom line is this is about what “we” want over what God wants. This is why I named it as sin. We are essentially saying that we know what’s best for us when we worship. It is about what we want and like. It’s about being comfortable.

Welcome beyond the looking glass – where homosexuality and Christianity are fully compatible, but Sunday morning worship in a non-homogenized environment is sin.

Corporate worship does require a level of “comfortability” – but it is a “comfortability” based on the community’s standards, not those of the individual. Certainly, we could all gather together and read in Latin from the original Vulgate, but that would not foster communion between the church community and God. Certainly, we could all gather together and sing worship songs in an eastern 10-note scale (which sounds incredibly foreign to ears used to 8-note scales), but we don’t, because the music in worship helps to foster worship and community with God. If we are under the eldership of our local church, they help determine the standards of the church community for corporate worship, based on the standards in the Bible, and that’s what we go with. We’re not called to corporate worship as a form of asceticism – we’re called to corporate worship as a form of community with God and each other, through Jesus Christ.

Maybe God doesn’t think being on our own corner and justifying ourselves by saying “I’m really worshipping with all the world” is a good idea for us and thinks something amazing can happen when the world looks at the Church and sees, “red and yellow black and white, all are precious in his sight” singing Hosanna together.

Or maybe Chad’s just got a God complex and thinks he can speak on God’s behalf for what He’d like in corporate worship. Maybe he should give Ingrid a call, since she’s got the same issue to deal with… Same psychosis, just a different frame of reference.

Which is perhaps the bigger issue: When we are pointing to the Christ who has reconciled all things to himself, what message do we send when people peek inside our churches and see the same faces?

I don’t know about your church, but ours – even if it is racially similar to the surrounding community (90% white) – is incredibly diverse. We’ve got blue collar, white collar, kids, octogenarians, middle-aged folk, single-moms, college students, retirees, immigrants, world-travelers, farmers, scientists, philosophers, artists, etc., etc. Even if most of the faces are the same color, this doesn’t imply a lack of diversity. If we’re truly color-blind, we don’t bother taking note of what the color of the church’s skin tends to be. It’s a non-issue.

Will there be segregated worship in heaven? If your answer to that question is “no” than on what grounds are you trying to justify it on earth?

That poor straw man’s not gonna have much stuffing when you’re done…

From Genesis to Revelation God speaks of “all nations, every tongue, every tribe” together, worshiping.

Which is not logistically possible until all nations, every tongue and every tribe are all co-located. And, when examined in scripture, the gathering of nations is not a daily command, but a seasonal one – based on the festival schedule. There is a difference between welcoming diversity where it occurs and forcing it to occur.

We are essentially saying that we know what’s best for us when we worship. It is about what we want and like. It’s about being comfortable.

Or, we’re following the leaders of our churches, who are leading as the Holy Spirit sees fit to lead them. If corporate worship is “comfortable”, so be it. There are times parts of our churches (or whole churches) come together in the larger community – through missions, service, conferences, etc. These aren’t exclusivist, but probably do a good job approximating what the seasonal festivals might look like in a modern setting.

This is really all about your preferences – what you want.

Wow – when did you pick up the role of the Holy Spirit, to know someone else’s heart and what motivates it? Oh wait, I’ve got an incoming call from God – He’d like to have His job back, thank you very much.

Maybe God doesn’t think being on our own corner and justifying ourselves by saying “I’m really worshipping with all the world” is a good idea for us and thinks something amazing can happen when the world looks at the Church and sees, “red and yellow black and white, all are precious in his sight” singing Hosanna together.

Or maybe that’s just Chad projecting upon God, while delivering a false dichotomy.

Zan, in order to preserve the impression I have long had of you that you are wise and full of spiritual insight, I am going to assume your desire to justify segregated worship is not because you really believe that to be God’s will but because you can’t bring yourself to publicly agree with me.

Talk about being full of it. Self-righteousness and hubris just seem to flow from you on this thread, Chad…

Sad…

Chris L. – I would love to preserve the impression I have long had of you that you are wise and full of spiritual insight, but that assumes facts not in evidence!

I just couldn’t resist.

What a back handed compliment.

Scripture and verse?????

I don’t really care what your impression of me is. Even more so when that is your response to my wanting to know what part of the text you derive your beliefs from. Pardon me for holding the bible as my final authority on how I should live my life.

One more question: Why don’t you partner with your best friend to join your churches?

Chad,

I don’t live in your community, so I can’t give it advice specific for the community. I think it would be great if the local churches worked together (I find most inter-church organizations/missions to be refreshing), even if they don’t corporately worship together on Sunday mornings. If there are racist feelings harbored in either church, I agree that they do not belong (Galatians 3:28). However, if the self-segregation is only a function of tradition and differing style, I see no issue with it. I don’t live there, so I can’t say which way it is (or if it’s a blend of the two).

Still, I’d be more concerned with the other 6.9 days/week before I started worrying about an hour on Sunday morning…

ick…

why do I feel like we all just took one step closer to witnessing a ham-handed verse war? I know that won’t happen, but I feel like we almost went there…

Both of ya’ll know that on issues like the one being discussed it’s not just about “chapter and verse”…and this kind of an issue shouldn’t be a key factor in how we perceive each other either.

ya’ll need to tone it down with each other…it’s not an issue worth getting…well…”shitty” with each other…you guys aren’t enemies–even if you disagree sharply on some areas.

I think unity–in a variety of forms–is desirable between communities and is consistent with the ultimate desires of God for God’s gathered people–something the Church proclaims in the present.

In light of that, Zan, you should care what worship in heaven looks like…it’s a great source for what we model our worship here on…it’s demonstrated in that book you rightly go to as your authority…just sayin’

and, while affirming your desire to worship within your particular sub-culture, I think there is a needed pushback about the reasons you gave for your preferences.

It’s a good point for us all to consider about how our preferences–i.e. seeking our own will–could be hindering the ways God wants to speak to us. Not saying that’s you, but it’s always good to push pause when that excellent point comes up and reflect on it.

I think that Chris L has a point about “location”…there are cultural issues that obtain in Chad’s situation that do not directly obtain (maybe) in other areas that may be overwhelmingly or exclusively homogenous.

nc,

no, just because you say I should care, doesn’t make it right. Anyone who knows me knows that I don’t get hung up on what we won’t know until we get there. I will tell you honestly that it doesn’t affect how I live my life on earth. not a bit. I am excited to get there and see it first hand. It won’t be what you think, or what I think, or anything close to what our imaginations can conjure up. So except to envision the excitement and power of the whole moment, why is it so important to you that I pour thought into it?

I agree that we need to look at the reasons we choose certain churches…that being said, it isn’t up to you or Chad or anyone else to pass judgment on each individuals reasons…or to presume you (collective “you”) know these reasons. It is ONLY between me and God. No one else. I test my own actions, and take pride in myself, and don’t compare myself to anyone else, because I and I alone will answer to God about my decisions. I, specifically, have been brought to one particular church at this point in my life. Would Chad or anyone else like to take it up with God as to why I don’t worship at the “black” church down the road?

I have, share, and encourage unity in so many areas of Christendom, but there must be freedom in non-essentials (which church choice is) and trust in our fellow-Christians’ discernment of God’s leading in their lives. Otherwise we become like those who think they “know” what all other Christians should be doing with their lives.

no, just because you say I should care, doesn’t make it right

I don’t determine if you should care…by your own standard of the bible you should care.

It’s not about “pouring thought” or being obsessive as your words may imply. It’s about the dreams of God…that’s the note that’s being sounded.

God’s vision of restored and redeemed reality–heaven and earth joined together–is the basis for our witness here on earth…

So except to envision the excitement and power of the whole moment, why is it so important to you that I pour thought into it?

It’s not all about excitement, power, etc.

I agree that we need to look at the reasons we choose certain churches…that being said, it isn’t up to you or Chad or anyone else to pass judgment on each individuals reasons…or to presume you (collective “you”) know these reasons.

I don’t judge you for your reasons about where you want to worship. Please don’t lump me in. The point about being reflective on our reasons isn’t a rebuke.

It is ONLY between me and God. No one else. I test my own actions, and take pride in myself, and don’t compare myself to anyone else, because I and I alone will answer to God about my decisions. I, specifically, have been brought to one particular church at this point in my life. Would Chad or anyone else like to take it up with God as to why I don’t worship at the “black” church down the road?

I’m glad for you. I’m not asking you to be ashamed, or to compare yourself to others. Again, I’m not denigrating your choices. And pointing out the wisdom of reflecting on our choices isn’t an attack on you.

Would Chad or anyone else like to take it up with God as to why I don’t worship at the “black” church down the road?

If you have a beef with Chad, have at it. But, honestly, when you get your hackles up, I think you need to really consider how you might be bristling unneccessarily at me at this point.

I have, share, and encourage unity in so many areas of Christendom, but there must be freedom in non-essentials (which church choice is) and trust in our fellow-Christians’ discernment of God’s leading in their lives. Otherwise we become like those who think they “know” what all other Christians should be doing with their lives.

I’ve said nothing against freedom in non-essentials. I’m the one who said this isn’t an issue worth people as enemies over.

I’m baffled. It’s clear you’re attributing a position and words to me that I don’t hold to.

I haven’t attacked you in this conversation, Zan. There’s no need to get that testy about it.

And my push back on one general point isn’t something bad, or an attack either. It’s puzzling to me why you are reacting the way you are…highflown sarcasm about being the one who holds to the Bible, and asking if people need to take things up with God…

It makes me wonder if you’ve even read my comments…

Rick’s question applies to both you and Chad in this thread.

Zan, I appreciate your response. And it helps me better understand.

I think “sin” is one of those words we probably should always push pause on so we can stop and define how we’re using it.

Chad and I both probably use the word more in relation to systemic situations/conditions of collective endeavors, etc. and then on to “individual culpability” only after that.

It seems that you would probably think of sin first as “personal acts of wrongdoing” and then the broader “systemic” dynamics second. (I could be wrong here.)

So I can understand how people with different sets of “emphases” (not so much definition) could enter into misunderstanding. These differing emphases aren’t “wrong or right”…but they help inform each other and give us a robust picture of sin in the whole…

anyway…

I appreciate your response.

Peace…

nc,

you are exactly right in the “personal acts of wrongdoing” aspect. That is how I view it first. I understand, and I don’t presume to know your age, but the younger generations (can’t believe I just typed that! man, I am getting older!) are much more about sins of a movement or thought or belief or culture. I understand the importance of this, but it must be used carefully, as we are called to impact this, but not necessarily held responsible in God’s eyes for the wrongdoing of a group/culture/demographic. This idea may be at the very root of the arguments on racism. And it truly is more a disconnect in terminology and definition than in beliefs.

ok, Photoshop is calling…must get back to work, but I have appreciated the interaction this evening. I don’t engage very often, but am encouraged when it ends in grace!