Of Integrity, Discernment, Pirates and SEALs (Updated)
The wicked borrow and do not repay, but the righteous give generously (Ps 37:21)
Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. (Romans 13)
In the past year, we’ve had a number of discussions and articles on the concept of the phrase “of the world”, and the meaning of the word “worldly”. In a nutshell, the Greek concept of “worldly”, the word kronos, deals with systems by which a society words – not a society’s art forms.
The systems of this world are not the systems of the kingdom of God. God does not bring his kingdom through wealth, power, coercion, and political intrigue. In His kingdom, the last are first, the meek are blessed, the poor in spirit are the first ones in, and the peacemakers are called sons of God.
So, “worldly” churches would be ones that preach a gospel of “health and wealth”, or who seek to achieve earthly domination via politics and power.
Worldly Christians are those who have bought into the systems of the world – who borrow beyond their means to repay; who focus on material wealth to the detriment of the poor; who benefit from the oppression of others; and those who see coercion and force as primary means of leadership and for whom humility and admission of error are foreign concepts.
Hypocrisy
Unsurprisingly, the #1 reason many unbelievers give for rejection of the church is observed, unrepentant hypocrisy of its members. Whether public scandals or private irresponsibility, the hypocrisy of churchgoers – coupled with the fact that they look little different from anyone else in their financial and family dealings – is a driving force behind the decline of the impact of the church in society.
Imagining, when the housing bubble burst in 2008, what if all of the Christian households had maintained integrity in their borrowing and little-to-no debt, living within their means? The current economic crisis affecting most of the world would be significantly lessened. The church, by and large, would be in a position to provide material and spiritual comfort to the unwise. In short, the impact would be huge!
Instead, Christians, by and large, are almost equally affected by the economic downturn, opportunities have been lost, and hypocrisy has been put on display.
Just An Example
Imagine that you’re a Christian, the CEO of a company with a name that implies some level of integrity, and debts upward of $1 million. In a faltering economy, do you a) buckle down and find a way to repay your creditors in full;** or b) stiff your creditors, pay to travel across the country to visit churches you don’t belong to* (where you criticize minutiae and gracelessly spin everything to fit your preconceived notions, offering nothing more than “essentially a Lutheran critique of Wesleyanism”), manage multiple ‘discernment’ blogs (where you beg for donations), and launch a “Pirate” “Christian” “Radio” station (three lies for the price of one!)?
I don’t know about you, but the choice seems rather obvious to me. (The choice of whether anyone in their right mind ought to lend to you again ought to be clear, as well, based on your decision…)
A few weeks back, much of the US watched, as rag-tag pirates from a fourth-world country tried to extort cash from unarmed victims, threatening to execute the innocent lives of others. Here in the first world, we just execute a “general assignment for the benefit of creditors” or declare bankruptcy, politely taking the cash w/o the physical coercion.
Off the Somali coast, the US Navy Seals effectively dealt with the Somali pirates. Here in the US, though, it looks like the ‘pirates’ just keep moving on – preying on the generosity of others, while stabbing innocent bystanders in the back to pay for their daily bread.
Where are God’s version of the Navy SEALs when you need them?***
________________
*It has been submitted that travel costs for 2008 were < $2000, paid from personal – not company – funds (which was not insinuated, just clarifying).
**It has also been submitted that one of the creditors was the CEO, himself, and that he was owed $140,000.
***It has also been noted to me by one of the other writers that this article is not in line with the “branding” of CRN.Info (we typically don’t involve ourselves in ‘opposition research’ – our niche is defending those who have been attacked and offering devotional/research materials on the diversity of (sometimes differing) views within Christian orthodoxy. This is not a new direction we’re intentionally heading down, so don’t expect many articles like this one…
142 Comments(+Add)
oh, snap!
actually, when you think about it…this is very enlightening.
Failure in one area compensated for by bitching and moaning about perceived failures of others…
it’s easier than therapy and you get to feel affirmed all at once.
And in this case, you get other folks to pay for your therapy sessions, instead of the insurance company…
“Unsurprisingly, the #1 reason many unbelievers give for rejection of the church is observed, unrepentant hypocrisy of its members.”
So what? The “church” does not save anyone. Man you would make a good papist.
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
So let the unbelievers give the excuse that the church is full of hypocrites, which is why they reject the kingdom of God.
See how far it gets them at the judgment
“Whether public scandals or private irresponsibility, the hypocrisy of churchgoers – coupled with the fact that they look little different from anyone else in their financial and family dealings – is a driving force behind the decline of the impact of the church in society.”
What you describe is not the church.
For peole who tout “freewill” you portray humanity as having no control over their own minds. We are able to block others from coming to Christ? No sovereign God here.
“Where are God’s version of the Navy SEALs when you need them?”
They are not part of this blog, that’s for sure.
“Get rid of this bunkum about the ‘carnal Christian’. Forget it! If
you’re carnal, you’re not saved.” – Leonard Ravenhill
We just talked last night with our Jr. Highers about integrity, commitment, and follow through.
Good article. Thanks Chris.
Hmmm, apparently Jesus had a low view of God’s sovereignty as well…
So Chris P., I’m going to assume that since you only quoted those few passages, that you agree with the rest of the article.
As I pointed out in a comment, to spend money to go to a church where there is no expectation of finding anything redemptive about Grainger given the multiplicity of articles on SoL that mirror your opinion, you are wasting God’s money and becoming a form of magisterium.
So God calls you to sit in a worship service where you have no intention of worshiping the Risen Christ just so you can pad your already overflowing portfolio of Grainger errors.
And as Christ was being maligned in a clown church, and as His name was being desecrated in your presence, you could not summon the courage to stand up and publicly rebuke them at that very moment?? You are part of the “Clandestine Magisterium” that is afraid of publicly backing up your claims.
In essence, you are on a Lutheran picnic.
So are we to believe that in the midst of blasphemy and a false gospel you sat silent? No whips and scourging, and no “viper’s brood” or “hypocrites”? Did you not have a divine responsibility to warn them all of their error? You left them in their sin and religious apostasy??
And after leaving the service of Baal you all went to eat and compare notes?? Read the Foxes Book of Martrys, who died for much less error than you say occurs there, and do you not feel ashamed? Is this the post modern version of “standing for truth? This is what John Huss would have done?
So leaving this blatant mockery of God and His Word you scurried back to the protection of a blog and a radio program. Who are the clowns now?
I have a question for you, Chris. Why does the Pirate Radio station allow the Internet Monk to have a program? Aren’t they significantly apart in their theology?
I’ve been to Lutheran picnics. They have lots of good food and adult beverages.
Weird denominational things to me… Chris R was a guest speaker and gave his “Conversion” story… on how he came to convert to be a Lutheran…
How he converted to be a Lutheran? Praise Luther… forget Jesus!
I came to Life in Christ and am part of the Body of Christ. I serve at a local church which happens to be a Vineyard Church… I would never say I “converted to the Vineyard”… That would be denying Jesus to me!
iggy
#11 – Yep, me too. My mother was the choir director. I often wonder about this head scratching phenomenon:
A giant meteor is heading toward the earth. Nothing can be done to divert it or to avoid it. There are 1 million people who will be killed by it, and there are 1 thousand people who are safe.
Now, the mission that these 1000 safe people have is to tell the safe and doomed people there is nothing they can do about their particular fate.
What a purposeless mission. “Hey, youare doomed and you cannot avoid it. I just wanted you to know that”.
You’re welcome.
** Oh, and by the way, some of the 1000 safe people are giving a report on the activities of some of the doomed people so that the safe people will not wander into their zone and be…wait a minute, I’m not sure why the safe people are studying the doomed people. Recreation, I guess.
It’s always interesting to hear someone accuse another of hypocrisy and lack of integrity when they know almost zero information regarding a particular event.
But, Chris L. I will forgive you.
Here is some more information and some context regarding the failure of Vendtegrity.
1. Vendtegrity took in roughly $30 million dollars per year managing temporary staffing functions for hospitals in the state of California.
2. Vendtegrity, like vast majority of businesses in the world also had debt.
3. Vendtegrity’s debt was short term non-secured debt and the average amount that was owed in short term debt was between $300,000 and $500,000 at any given time. In other words Vendtegrity’s debt represented only 3% of our annual receivables (which was well below industry averages)
4. Vendtegrity’s greatest expense was its payroll.
5. When the economy tanked in September of 08, two of Vendtegrity hospitals cancelled their contracts citing financial reasons for the cancellation of their contracts.
6. In November of 08 one of Vendtegrity’s hospitals stopped paying their bills to Vendtegrity altogether.
7. The loss of two hospitals and the non-payment of one of Vendtegrity’s major hospital accounts made it impossible for Vendtegrity to meet its payroll and pay its vendors and pay its creditors.
7b. I am one of Vendtegrity’s creditors. Vendtegrity owes me $140,000
8. The reason I choose to BK Vendtegrity through a general receivership was for the benefit of Vendtegrity’s creditors. If I had chosen a standard BK then then the Creditors would have been paid practically nothing of what Vendtegrity owed them. By choosing a receivership it insured that the vendors would be paid the maximum amount of monies owed to them should the receiver be successful in collecting deliquent monies owed to Vendtegrity.
9. I attended three church conferences in 2008. The total cost for attending all three was less that $2,ooo and I paid for those conferences from my own personal funds.
9b. When you compare the $2,000 I personally paid for attending these church conferences to the 7 months of a $**K salary that I paid to a contributor to THIS website, accusing me of having lack of integrity really begins to sound very stupid and uninformed.
Chris,
What does that have to do with this? Nothing. In fact, I’m rather certain it is illegal for you to talk about my salary in public. We may have had our falling out and we may not have. I’m not sure, but that’s just silliness. That aspect of our lives has nothing to do with this. It’s ok, I forgive you.
One more point Chris, are you saying just because you paid a salary to a contributor at THIS website, that means you’ll have integrity for the rest of your life?
Did anyone put a gun to your head and force you to pay anyone else? Your argument is a silly defense and once again shows how far you’ve fallen. I actually feel badly for you and I’m probably the one that is going to lose my house in this mess.
Joe,
You’re just flat out wrong in claiming that it is illegal to discuss your salary in public. That information is actually public information.
The reason I mentioned it is because Chris L. made my travel an issue when he stated:
I was merely adding context to his out of context statements and uninformed allegations.
Joe,
I hope that you would also use some of that energy of yours to convince your fellow .info contributor to retract his unfounded allegations, and false and libelous statements made about me.
I would hate to see Chris L’s integrity taking a hit for making false, misleading and unsubstantiated statements about me.
We’ll see, I’m actually on the phone with an attorney now. I’m on hold but still…
In my view, only the church visitation and report are pertinent to a theological conversation. No one can be privy to how Chris conducts his business or to what lengths he has gone to avoid “stiffing” his creditors.
The church thing to me is different.
Joe,
If you really want to escalate this matter legally then I will be more than happy to respond in kind and pull a Richard Abanes and call my attorney and have this site shut down for libel and officially file suit against all its contributors for this false and libelous post.
#18.
I’ll tell you what, I’m going to worry about trying to keep my house, and let you worry about what a site that you don’t care about says about you.
Do whatever you gotta do Chris. Knock yourself out. If I’m flat out wrong what are you worried about? Don’t try and bully me.
I’d rather abstain from any commenting on the failure of a company and what culpability there may be… (ftr: though this looks wimpy given Chris R.’s recent comment – we cross-posted)
That notwithstanding, the twisting Chris Rosebrough did of Bell’s comments (changing what he meant then attacking the changed meanings), and the manner in which he bait and switched the staff at Granger speak volumes.
I’m the most dangerous person you know Chris, I’m on the brink of financial ruin. In short, I have nothing to lose.
Joe,
I care about what this site says when it crosses the line from theological debate to personal libel.
I’m not here to discuss theology. I’m here to set the record straight.
And I’m being nice at the moment. But, if you want to escalate this then I am more than ready and willing to take the legal gloves off.
Joe,
I’m already ruined financially. I lost my business, my income, and my house. And it wasn’t from lack of effort or lack of integrity on my part. So I have nothing to lose either.
Because suing other brothers and sisters is what Jesus was all about.
Chad,
Yeah and Jesus was all about libeling and lying about people too. Wasn’t he?
One of my favorite documents is the Bill of Rights, which Chris R seems to value greatly. If anyone is not familiar with the Bill of Rights you can read it by turning to Phil 2.
Chris _ as one who has significant disagreement with your theology and approach, I would ask all of us to de-escualte. And I would also agree that some of what Chris L. posted was unfortunate and probably without the full information necessary for a proper assessment. We should attempt to leave our personal lives as off limits.
I am truly sorry for your losses, and as a brother I will pray you receive unusual comfort from the Savior.
#26 and #27.
OK, you do whatever you need to do. I’m not going to subject everyone else to you parading around like a Peacock using stupid phrases like, “the legal gloves are going to come off.”
No one has ever won a successful law suit against a blog. Ever. Certainly not against someone else who didn’t even write the article that you find so offensive.
Now, there have been employees who have won against former employees for disclosing their salary. At least according to my attorney.
Chris, I’m sorry you’ve lost your house. I really am, but quit trying to scare and intimidate me, it won’t work.
Remember when we talked about Silva calling me a Christian Agnostic? Do you remember what you said?
Chad,
Explain how Chris L was living up to Phil 2 through the lies that he said about me in this post.
Yeah. what did he do to his enemies? Sued, them of course. Or wait, is he the one who died for them and forgave them? I get Jesus mixed up with my attorney, forgive me.
#33 – He wasn’t. Please forgive him, everything but the Grainger thing was inappropriate.
Joe,
Like I said.
I hope that you will spend some of your energy convincing your fellow blogger to clean up this post because it is way off the mark from the truth.
#33
Once again a beautiful example of the rhetoric that ??N contributor’s use but don’t apply. See, here’s what you are all missing with Chris R. It’s OK for him to do something wrong if someone else does the another wrong first. If Chris L violated Phil 2, then so can Chris R.
Sola Scriptura indeed.
33 – irrelevant.
Chad,
Who was it who called an attorney?
Was it me or was it Joe?
#36
You should worry about your fellow bloggers.
I echo Rick on this one…
#39
Please see number #37. Chris you make this too easy.
39 – I have no idea. Nor do I really care other than to say no one should be threatening to sue and no one should be doing things that are malicious to others (that includes your continued attacks on the body of Christ, Chris R). Chris R, when you make it your life’s mission to discredit everyone you deem to be wrong you should expect some fallout from that. IMO it is nothing but a sinful spiral. You have your reward.
As an older blogger and an ordained elder (57) I strongly suggest that this should not be played out in public. This between Chris L. and Chris R. and I believe in this issue Chris R. has raised some legitimate issues.
The rest has gone quickly awry. Let us back off and leave personal and business issues alone and not attack a man’s character. None of us know what happened and this economoy will test us all.
Chad – you attitude is unchristian. You should not project an “eye for an eye” principle, and coming from you I am bewildered.
Ok,
As I thought, it is illegal for him to reveal my salary. I went in and covered the offense with asterisks. I’ve already stated that I forgive Chris for his indiscretion and I believe it was done out of ignorance, not with malicious intent. As for the rest of this garbage, I’m done with the back and forth.
Chris Rosebrough, I am truly sorry you lost your house. That is a very real possibility for me and looking at it right around the corner I can’t imagine having to go through that. I am confident that you will bounce back.
I’m sorry that I’ve let my anger get the best of my in my exchange with Joe. Joe, I hope you can forgive me.
I began my response to this libelous post by extending Chris L my forgiveness. That forgiveness is still there and I hope that Chris L. would reconsider what he’s said in this post because it is far off the mark from the truth.
That is the way I will leave this discussion.
Joe, I am very sad to hear that things are going poorly for you financially. I know exactly what that feels like and I pray that the Lord would provide you with gainful employment. If I had the ability to hire again I would do so without blinking and I hated having to let you go.
I enjoyed our discussions and I felt that you were a hard working guy.
Rick, you are either being sarcastic or you misunderstand me. Why do you say I am projecting eye for an eye? I am definately not.
Much better.
Chad – you had suggested Chris R. was getting was he deserved, puncuated by a “you have your reward” quip. That is not grace.
#47.
I too enjoyed our exchanges. It is unfortunate that we were unable to be successful together. I appreciate the prayers always.
I only live about 4 hours from you now. I plan on being in Grand Rapids over the summer. I’d love to catch up over a cup of coffee.
Chris R – I’ve updated the post to reflect the travel costs, per your comments above…
#52.
Sounds good. We just had a great little coffee/tea shop open up.
Chris L,
Errr ummm.. thanks. You may want to take a look at a few more of your characterizations of me in this post. But don’t get me wrong. I think that was a step in the right direction. I and truly appreciate it.
I admit I have found Chris R.’s tactics, attitudes, and blogs to be poisonous to the Body of Christ.
Yet, his comment #47 was absolutely spot-on.
50 – I see where the misunderstanding is, then.
What I am saying is that if Chris R. is going to traffic in the sort of “ministry” he has chosen than he should not be surprised when things like this crop up.
It is like me telling someone that if they engage in promiscuous sex don’t be shocked when you contract an STD. Like the Marine I once treated who was shocked that he caught herpes even though he used a condom, albeit the same one twice, turning it inside out.
I would say that what is happening IS grace. Judgment and grace are two sides of the same coin (as I have said for months now).
I feel like I’ve just witnessed a flash fire that was caught early.
Chad,
The big difference is that I critique people’s doctrine, theology and statements.
I have HUGE issues with Rick Warren’s ideas but I am the first guy to admit that Warren is the NICEST and MOST GENEROUS person I have ever had the privilege of meeting AND the guy is much much smarter than I am.
I have HUGE issues with the things being done and taught at Granger BUT I am gladly on record saying that they are the nicest people that you will ever meet.
I have HUGE difference of opinion with Joe Martino. But, I love him like a brother and thought he was a Valuable member of Vendtegrity’s team and enjoyed the time I spent with him.
This post on the other hand, crosses the line of theological debate and differences and engages in personal attacks by attempting paint me as some kind of low grade white collar criminal with no integrity who wastes money flying around the country while not doing everything in my power to pay my business creditors. Nothing could be further from the truth.
This is what is amazing about many white people-they fight over the dumbest things.
In my culture, we have something better than blogs. They are circles where we allow people to communcate one at a time honestly and openly.
If Chris L had spoken these lies in a circle, he would have been confronted by Chris R within the circle, and the lies would have been resolved within the community.
The back and forth between Chris R and Joe would therefore had not happened.
For a group that strives to be different, you are not much different than the modern american culture I am struggling to be in but not of.
I’ve posted a couple more corrections (I missed your first comment, Chris). My apologies for not getting it right the first time, and for straying from the mission of this site…
Zan and Chris Paytas- thank your for your gentle correction behind the scenes…
#59 – a very gracious comment. It might serve you better if you made those things more evident in your theoloical analysis. However, Chris, many with whom you associate with consider Rick Warren (for instance) as a deceiving snake who manipulates people with full knowledge of his actions.
They have, as well, stated he is unregenerate. Do you?
Rick,
Warren confesses orthodox Christianity.
I believe that Warren’s doctrinal and methodological innovations undermine orthodoxy Christianity by confusing Law and Gospel and through his habitual scripture twisting and his methods do no represent best practices when it comes to discipleship.
And I have shared all of these concerns with Warren, face to face.
That measured approach should offend no one. I suggest that the “ODM” nation would be better served if you guys paused and did an inventory of your own attitudes and communicative practices. Many of us agree in part with some of your issues, but many times (you are not the worst offender) the invective laced verbiage and the redundant horse beating preclude particpation from all but those who enjoy personal attack.
You have felt what it’s like to be unfairly represented.
Thurstin,
There were no “lies” spread – the principle still stands, as the defense “other businesses do this too…” isn’t a ringing endorsement. I’ve not retracted anything, as there are no ‘lies’ to retract.
However, Chris has submitted financial numbers he feels give more context to the situation, and I’ve included those in the article, itself.
When you put yourself up on a pedestal as a discerner of what is “worldly”, what is an embarrassment to the church, and what in the church contains “a little leaven” – all the while acting in ways that are “worldly” (”other businesses do this too…”) – planks and specks come to mind. Our economy is a mess, and Christians have been just as culpable as non-Christians in the greed and mismanagement that got us to where we are. If we sought to be different, we’d be in a different position today, as would the economy…
People are people so why should it be
That you and I should get along so awefully?
Because people are people.
Chris R.,
Since we’re engaging in this open discussion (for a change I am glad to say) do you understand why I contend that you twisted Bell’s words? These were then picked up by Ingrid who carried them to a whole new level.
Neil
I have found it deeply painful to see how quickly those who profess the grace in Jesus Christ resort to implying help from the secular justice system. It profoundly exhibits how “undifferent” we truly are from those without the camp.
63-
Chris R, welcome to the “slippery” club.
You say: Warren confesses orthodox Christianity.
Yet, you did not exactly answer the question.
Do you consider him a brother in Christ?
Rick,
funny that you should mention that.
One of the things I have felt that I need to do is do a better job at is building up and not spend as much time tearing down.
I offer as proof of my efforts along this line a couple of pieces of evidence.
#1 – I’ve slowed down and paired back the number of new exhibits that I add to the Museum of Idolatry. I used to post 2 to 3 exhibits per day. I’ve cut that way back.
#2 – instead of finding new exhibits for the museum I’ve instead begun spending more time writing theological posts that teach and don’t just tear down at ExtremeTheology.com.
#3 I spend a lot more time on my radio program engaging in Biblical teaching than I have in the past.
What was my reasoning for this change? After reading Tim Challies critique of ODM’s I personally found some of his critiques to have merit and have been prayerfully re-thinking some of my strategies and how I should spend my time.
70 – Praise God for that.
Wow, to openly say that on THIS blog is truly an act of grace. I appreciate it greatly. That path to strongly confront error while attempting to be gracious is not well travelled. I will pray God will lead you to be an example to everyone.
I did notice your kind words toward Warren after your trip which was met with some less than enthusiastic support. Keep beeing a grace maverick!
This thread:
Flowers growing where fire once raged.
Neil,
If you go back and read my original piece you’ll notice that I was really going after a bigger fish than Bell. I was going after the “God in Box” idea that is floating around the church today. Those promoting this idea have taken bits and pieces from Bell, McLaren and Jones and use them to justify this idea that we can’t know anything with certainty about God because that would be “putting God in a box”.
The Bell quote was a foil in the piece and not the main thrust of the article at all.
That being said, I choose the Bell quote precisely because a “Christian” teenager I was having a discussion with on this very topic threw that exact quote in my face in order to justify his non-belief in the doctrine of the trinity.
That article was really written for him and his friends and it was only one of three articles I wrote on the subject that week.
Maverick
We indigenous people don’t like that term.
I guess it is better than grace cowboy….but not by much.
ROSEBROUGH: If you really want to escalate this matter legally then I will be more than happy to respond in kind and pull a Richard Abanes and call my attorney and have this site shut down for libel and officially file suit against all its contributors for this false and libelous post.
RA: Dear CR,< please don’t drag me into these discussions. I have nothing to do with this issue, you, or Joe. I’d also request that you’d not misrepresent me, misrepresent various events in my life, and then use those misrepresentations as some sort of justification for your own behavior — i.e., you’re the one who keeps threatening everyone with lawsuits:
That was a threat. And that was a willful dismissal of 1 Cor. 6. (For those interested, more about CR’s threats against me publicly and its results are also online for everyone to read.
Now, you’ve just threatened someone else, except this time, you pulled me into teh conflict using the Ken Silva debacle. The truth is that I’ve never made any such threats (i.e., like you’ve made here and with me) against ANY Christian — publicly or privately. My actions regarding Silva’s ISP have been explained by me here and here. So, you can stop posting lies/libel about me anytime.
Interestingly, if you found my actions in THAT Ken Silva situation so appalling and unbiblical, then, the obvious question is: Why do you do EXACTLY the very same thing that you’ve repeatedly condemned? I offer a scripture at this point:
The following definitions are provided only for further study, as a suggested course of research in the area of interesting definitions I found and that I’d like to share with readers, which is my right to do under my Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Expression rights guaranteed by the First Amendment:
I wish you all the best, Chris. I truly do.
R. Abanes
The flowers just wilted.
Maverick: a lone dissenter, as an intellectual, an artist, or a politician, who takes an independent stand apart from his or her associates.
Rick, I saw that in the moderation queue and had a fleeting thought of deleting it – but I guess we take the good with the bad,
Rick,
Debate of any kind has the ability to become emotional and degenerate into mere name calling. We’re all sinful human beings and at times our passions get the best of us.
When that happens we need to prayerfully step back and re-asses the situation.
In my case, after doing that I believed that I needed to make some adjustments.
We are all learning and growing. And one of the best blessings that God can give a person is a smart critic.
Chris, I am still curious: Do you see Warren as your brother in Christ?
Thanks.
The entire Silva/Arbanes narrative was extremely unfortunate and no one was innocent. I think dregging it up is unproductive.
Richard,
I’m glad that you posted that. It is a good reminder of where we have been. But, I do not believe that is where we currently are or where we heading.
Who is RAbanes and why did he have to wreck the love feast?
Chris Rosebrough – Whatever medication you are currently taking needs to be distributed to all of us.
Chris,
The context makes sense, though the whole thing could have been avoided if you had made a comment that Bell cannot be held responsible for every teen who takes his comment out of context.
What Bell said is true. McClaren I have little use for. Yet some cannot discern the difference.
But can you see where Ingrid took your words and turned then into Bell saying we can make no definitive statement about God? Which is far from true.
Now, to be consistent,I must admit you are not responsible for Ingrid’s errors on what you wrote. Yet, since she quoted/linked you, I hope the “New Chris R.” (I hope that does not sound condescending – it’s not meant to be) would correct her.
Thanks Chris R., this has been good.
Chad,
Sorry for not getting back to you.
In Lutheran Speak, when a Lutheran says that a person confesses the Orthodox Christianity faith that is another way of saying that all the evidence points to that person being a Christian.
Chris,
#83 = good enough for me.
If that is not where we are and not where we’re heading, then I’m all for that and want to agree with you 100%.
We shall leave up these posts and the others at our various blogs as signposts of our past journeys as we move forward.
I hope you have a good week. And, TBH, I am truly sorry to hear about some of your misfortune. I shall endeavor to keep you in prayer on a regular basis.
peace in him,
RAbanes
RICK: Whatever medication you are currently taking needs to be distributed to all of us.
RA: When I used to attend a hyper-charismatic, pentecostal chruch way back in the day, we used to call it a “Dose of the Holy Ghost.”
RA
Neil,
your points are duly noted.
#87 – OK, now it is getting a little scary!
87 – thanks for that.
I look forward to seeing future dialog about Warren (and others who are part of the body of Christ) as befitting discussion among family members who all share the conviction that Jesus is Lord.
peace.
Okay, I’m breaking my commenting fast to jump in on this comment thread because it is one of the most encouraging things I’ve read in awhile.
I find it interesting that our Lord, in His grace, often uses adversity and conflict to bring about healing.
This comment thread quickly turned into a semi-predictable tit-for-tat. But just as quickly reversed into gracious dialogue when sin was confessed, and when forgiveness was extended and received and received and extended.
Praise be to our patient God!
Rick,
At the risk of sounding really sappy. I want to open myself up a little here.
Yesterday, for some unknown reason I had this overwhelming need to write a meditation on Luke 7:1-10.
I’ve never written anything like it before. I would not say that it is God’s gift to the Meditative genre. But, writing it broke me in a way that I never been broken.
I’ve studied passages of scripture, theologically, grammatically and doctrinally. And when you’re always in a debate posture it is very difficult to find time to read God’s word any other way.
That exercise forced me to grapple with a passage of scripture in a way that I have never done before and it was LIBERATING!
Yes and they also have some families get into power and shun other and not allow them jobs on the reservation. Thurstin, many are just as corrupt as “white-people”… So really…. and many, many, many white people also sit in circles and communicate…
Really I am too tired of your racism against human beings… there is one race… the race of man as the bible teaches. God gifted us with a diversity of skin colors and ethnic groups…
If you allow bitterness to control you then you will not grow as God intends… you need to pray God releases you from that bitterness and replace it with His love for all people… regardless to skin color.
If your pastor has not taught about forgiveness… meaning that if you do not learn to forgive as you have been forgiven… then he has not taught you how to truly be free of sin. This may mean that you are not really saved. I am not saying you are not saved, but the bible teaches that those who cannot forgive will not be forgiven in the end. We learn how to forgive by allowing the Grace that saved us be given by and through us by God to others. So far I read what you write and do not see that at all.
iggy
No offense meant to the writers here, but it would be wonderful if there came a time when sites like these were seen as unneeded.
94: That is a stirring confession and a struggle all of us in ministry share and should heed.
In my Bible there is a passage in Romans I have underlined: Teacher, do you teach yourself? I open it often to remind myself that I need to remain ever humble and teachable by the Spirit. Far too often I read as a means to teach others. It is indeed “liberating” to read as a means for self-edification and spiritual growth.
grace and peace
IGGY just confused me…..totally.
Chris, Luke 7:1-10 is actually one of my favorite passages of scripture. By the end of it, I often have my eyes well up with tears. And TBH, I’m not sure why. Perhaps its the Holy Spirit speaking to my soul in that passage on a kind of non-verbal level. Anyway, that passage is filled with power and wisdom.
FYI, I am now reading Job.
I’m glad we’ve spoken to each other here. Perhaps we can have breakfast again together at some point. The invitation is there if you’re even up to it.
peace in him,
RAbanes
Richard,
After losing my business and my home. I’ve relocated my family in Indiana.
I can no longer afford to live in a southern California costal town.
If you’re ever in Indianapolis, drop me a line.
Seriously, this too cool… first the Steve Camp post about Driscol, then the Challies thing (though I;m not up to speed on the details there) and now a great discussion between “us” and Chris R.
I’m gonna buy a lottery ticket on the way home…
No argument from any of the writers here.
Chris,
I will indeed look you up if I’m ever over there, which I sometimes am. Perhaps we can stay in communication via email…..
Chris, I am truly, truly sorry. If I can do anything to help, let me know — and I mean that.
I’m putting you on my daily prayer list for all of May. God is with you. Lean on him. Remember Job. You have my number.
peace in him (truly),
RAbanes
If ya’ll would like to read my meditation on Luke 7:1-10 I’d love to know what you think.
http://www.extremetheology.com/2009/04/i-am-not-worthy-to-have-you-come-under-my-roof.html
ot sure what you guys are fighting about today (I have a hard time keeping track).
I think CR is trying to apologize, and I get the feeling that some of you guys would rather piss in his cheerios this morning than forgive him. Ah, if we could only meet together for a beer at a friendly pub somewhere; where real men are free to lie about each other face to face and stop taking themselves so seriously
I am sorry to here about financial troubles for any of you guys. For what its worth; you could always get a regular job like the rest of us poor slobs. It may not be as glamorous as having a flock to hear you preach or read deep thoughts on your blog; but it pays for diapers and puts food on the table.
Brett,
Getting a real job would shatter the illusion that we are masters of the universe.
Chris R. I’m humbled by your willingness to dialogue and the manner in which you are handling this.
My prayers for you are that God’s grace would continually be enough in spite of our worldly worries. I will also be in prayer for your family.
Grace and Peace,
Chris Paytas
Iggy,
Why are you ashamed of your name Carlos then?
I am not bitter, I am frustrated that a person who has been saved by grace cannot humble themselves to place themselves in a posture so that reconciliation can take place between races.
Chris P,
Sometimes in our battle against false doctrine we can lose site of the fact that the pure Gospel that we are battling for is this amazing news that God so LOVED the world that He Gave is only begotten Son.
Christians have been given the ministry of reconciliation. To announce to mankind that in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them and calling them to repentance and faith in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins.
Sometimes, Christians who are zealous for the truth wage their battles more like Muslim Extremists rather than Christians. But, before you point your finger at other bloggers and say “boy is that right about so and so”. Ask yourself if you’re not the one who is guilty of doing that.
I know that in my case this has been true at times.
Spirit of promise, Spirit of unity,
we thank you that you are also the Spirit of renewal.
Renew in the whole Church
that passionate desire for the coming of your kingdom
which will unite all Christians in one mission to the world.
May we all grow up together into him who is our head,
the Savior of the world. Amen.
(Olive Wyon, England, 20th century)
I wlll close our communion service this Sunday with the prayer we pray each time we come to the Table:
By your Spirit make us one with Christ, one with each other, and one in ministry to all the world, until Christ comes in final victory, and we feast at his heavenly banquet.
Through your son Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit in your holy Church, all honor and glory is yours, almighty God, now and forever. Amen.
Thurstin,
I am not ashamed of my name at all…
I have just used iggy as a name on the Internet for years now… Many call me Carlos…
And your verbiage really harms any reconciliation that can happen. Think about that… if you continue the cycle of blaming others… and not extending Grace to them, you are more to blame as you should know better than those who have not been touched by grace.
Carlos Edwardo (iggy) Shelton
Chris R,
Sorry to hear about your hardships. I wish things were different for you. You had a great idea with Vendtegrity and you have a go getter personality in the business world. Our prayers are with you and your family.
I don’t think anyone is pissing in anybody’s cereal. We have all embraced the overtures from Chris R., with much fanfare and enthusiasm.
107 – Amen.
There are too many Chris’s on this site. Did Chris P. say something silly again? I must have missed it.
Iggy,
Reconciliation that is Biblical is when the party who did the wrong repents and the one who was wronged receives that repentance and forgives.
The Mexicans are not the problem here, it is the whites who did this and in many ways are still doing it, even though there is a black man in power now.
Matthew “Standing Bear” Thurstin
Thurstin,
Why bring this up in this thread, when it is relevant to the other thread.
Chris R
Where are you living in Indy? I hadn’t realized you moved out here. We live in Zionsville on the NW side…
I’m in North East Indy. South of Fishers.
Thurstin,
I see you have been taught wrongly about reconciliation… my prayers are with you and for you that you can overcome and forgive others freely as God has forgiven you freely…
I have no idea why you are bringing Mexicans into this discussion… really… I am white… as white can be… but I am not your enemy… I have never forced you or your family to do anything. Evil men did… regardless to their color. Evil is evil and is not racist.
My concern is that you have not allowed the grace freely given to you… as well as the forgiveness God freely gave to through the death of Jesus… to work in you and that this bitterness will only harm you in the end and not anyone else.
Cain could not overcome it… but now we can by the word of our testimony and the Blood of the Lamb…
We are to offer reconciliation… it is up to the other person to accept it or reject it… we are not in bondage to the other person… yet, you are by your bitterness and words… you have placed conditions on reconciliation that God did not even do with you…
God reconciled you through Jesus so that you would respond to the Kindness of His forgiveness through Jesus so that you may come to Jesus to receive Life.
This is not the forum to continue in this conversations. Feel free to email me if you want to continue.
iggy@wwdb.org
Carlos
Iggy and Thurstin,
I responded to this topic in the other thread- I invite Thurstin to respond to me there.
Neil,
I am personally done with THAT topic… if he wants to email me he can and I will continue… but really to me it is in Thurstin’s hands and I am just going to ignore his comments from now on here regarding this.
though it is sad that whoever has taught him of reconciliation has taught him wrong… I know who that is and I am not surprised at all.
igs
#99 Neil: ed on the details there) and now a great discussion between “us” and Chris R.
RA: Here’s another one for you…..Steve Camp and I have been enjoying several telephone conversations and are in agreement now on many many issues. We plan to meet soon for a lunch or dinner. And have become friends despite any past disagreements. In fact, he now has me listed on his blogroll (see CAMP ON THIS) and I have him listed on my Pop Culture Mix. With this conversation today between all of “us” and CR, I am under the impression that God is doing something wonderful. This is my prayer.
peace in him,
Richard Abanes
I’m curious what you think it is I do Brett S? That statement has a few assumptions in it that don’t appear to be true.
Joe,
I didn’t mean to belittle anyone with my remarks. I don’t know you or your situation, and I am not assuming anything about you. I’ve never been out of work, but I do sympathize with the problems that causes for families.
I’ve lived in the same town my whole life; so I’m probably not the most experienced well traveled guy to offer advice. I don’t know where any of you guys live, but from housing prices alone I don’t know how anyone can afford to live in So California.
In my part of the country, unemployment is still virtually 0% (as it has been for a while). Any able bodied guy that can pass a drug test and show up to work on time can easily find gainful employment.
Chris R.:
A profound statement. I believe I have benefited from being involved with this thread. I may take the time to read it again tomorrow just to glean more things the Spirit desires to show me about my own perspectives.
Brett,
Wow that was a pretty ignorant comment. Just so you know… My husband is a full time student, works full time, while working for a non profit organization for at risk youth, and is a lay pastor at our church, and some how manages to be an amazing husband and father in the process.
Just so you know. I would want you to picture him sitting at the computer blogging all day and not getting a real job!
He happens to work really hard. His full time job is comission only and is not paying that is why we might loose our home but it is not because he is not working as hard as you.
Erica,
I plead guiltly of many ignorant comments in my life, but I’m not sure what was ignorant about that one.
I sincerely hope and pray that you guys can keep your home!
I’m not a wealthy man, but I would be willing to contribute in some way.
Brett,
Your first comment kind of came off as we were lazy. I don’t think you meant it that way, but that was how I read it and I think my wife did too. She’s just defending her husband.
Joe,
The thought of you being lazy never entered my mind. I was just giving the facts about the way things are in the South / for encouragement that economic conditions are cyclical and change (houses are cheap and jobs easy to find around here).
No, problem. I’ve got a good woman and 4 young wipper snappers at home, too.
I admire your obvious commitment to helping young people, and I really will pray for you guys.
And the offer still stands if you guys are passing the hat.
Yeah, sadly, I live in Michigan where the unemployment rate just hit 10%
I was in Michigan yesterday – 3 times in the month of April. I’m a salesguy, and this state happens to be my territory. I have to say that there is a cloud of foreboding that seems to be hanging over the state at the moment, probably made worse with yesterday’s news and a sense that things will only continue to go down from here.
I think the unemployment of Detroit itself (not the state of MI) is something closer to 20%…
Brett,
Sorry I was a little harsh. I get a little defensive because I believe people often assume you are not doing the “right” thing and that is why you struggle.
Joe works his tail off, in fact most weeks we hardly see him. Right now things are tough but God has always taken care of us.
Like I said he is amazing how much he gives of his time and energy and some how manages to make deans list while he works like crazy. He is simply amazing. So I get a little defensive please forgive me.
I am not looking for hand outs you happen to catch me having a rough day so I am venting:-)
That was a great article, Chris. For too long people have put their faith in paper money (a broken promise to pay silver and gold), stocks/shares (promises to pay paper money), bonds (promises to pay stolen tax paper money), insurance (promises to pay an undisclosed future amount of paper money on a depreciating asset) and many other things. Like Joseph did in Egypt, people need to save an honest form of the product of their labour for bad times. Man makes pieces of paper, and God says that all the gold and silver belong to him. My anarcho-capitalist views are strong, so I should stop about now
This is an example of the type of useless rhetoric that many times consumes our Calvinistic brethren, and that is what saps the life out of vibrant revelations of the Risen Christ. The nano-minutia that are so often the forum for these types of “theological” discussions are always conducted in a land far away from the kingdom of the redemptive essence of Christ, and in the end they serve only as doctrinal topics and not the cause and Person of Jesus Christ.
It seems that .INFo is now “anti-Christian,” according to Daniel Chew at CHRISTIAN RESEARCH NETWORK: “One just need to glance at the meta of Challies’ two posts to see… Chris Lyons of the anti-Christian watchblog CRN.info praising Challies and attacking the watchblogs, to see the damage Challies has done.”
RA
And you’re also all supposedly “enemies of the Truth.”
RA
It is astounding how such sites that are “called” to expose and criticise others respond so energetically to the slightest correction, even from one of their own. I believe Chew’s phrase “anti-Christian watchblog” refers to being against Christian watchblogs and is not saying that crninfo or Chris Lyons is anti-Christian.
My link to Chew’s article New Evangelical Calvinism: The New Evangelical infatuation with positivity got wanky in #133. So here it is again for reference.
RA
RICK: I believe Chew’s phrase “anti-Christian watchblog” refers to being against Christian watchblogs and is not saying that crninfo or Chris Lyons is anti-Christian.
RA: Possibly. But I wonder, given how the rhetoric has often either: a. hinted that critics or the ODMs are not Christian; or b. blatantly stated they were not Christian.
Chew is a sharp guy and I am wndering how he meant: “the anti-Christian watchblog CRN.info”
1. …the watchblog (CRN.info) that is an anti-Christian website….
or
2. …CRN.info, the website that is against Christian watchblogs…
I’d be open to hearing Chew explain his words. Either way, I think it’s clear that Chew is saying CRN.info falls under the category of “enemies of the Truth.”
RA
You can call me an enemy of the lie that is called the “Truth War”…
God does not need me to protect Him or His truth… His Truth Protects me.
To twist this around as those who called for the truth war did… is to make man sovereign to God and God some weak god whose truth cannot protect itself… and that is HOW THE WORLD SEES GOD AND HIS TRUTH NOT REAL BELIEVERS!
So I would add that the bible teaches that those who hate their brothers as those who push the truth war seem to do… do not have the truth in them.. and since the truth war is a lie itself… I would have to agree with the bible and God over their man made anti Christian lie called The Truth War.
I gladly stand on God’s truth and believe that God is not so weak as needing me to protect Him or His truth… and trust that He will protect me with His truth…
And that Truth is the Person of Jesus!
iggy
My comment #132 addresses how I feel about that Calvinism post. Does the word “obsession” strike a chord?
Once again “enemies of the truth” really means:
“disagrees with me”
see also:
“unbiblical”…
This thread is great news to come back to! Chris R. and Joe, I will be praying for you that God will provide in all your needs.