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	<title>Comments on: and your point would be &#8230; ?</title>
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	<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/05/07/and-your-point-would-be/</link>
	<description>Engaging the depths of God and life in the Kingdom</description>
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		<title>By: John Hughes</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/05/07/and-your-point-would-be/comment-page-9/#comment-96271</link>
		<dc:creator>John Hughes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 18:38:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=2855#comment-96271</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;who decides what are and what are not authentic expressions? &lt;/blockquote&gt;

The ODM&#039;s of course.  Where have you been over the past several years?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>who decides what are and what are not authentic expressions? </p></blockquote>
<p>The ODM&#8217;s of course.  Where have you been over the past several years?</p>
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		<title>By: John Hughes</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/05/07/and-your-point-would-be/comment-page-9/#comment-96270</link>
		<dc:creator>John Hughes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 18:35:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=2855#comment-96270</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt; James 2:18 But someone may well say, &quot;You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.&quot; &lt;/blockquote&gt;

My money is on the gay guy.  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p> James 2:18 But someone may well say, &#8220;You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.&#8221; </p></blockquote>
<p>My money is on the gay guy.  <img src='http://prophets-priests-poets.info/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: John Hughes</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/05/07/and-your-point-would-be/comment-page-9/#comment-96269</link>
		<dc:creator>John Hughes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 18:33:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=2855#comment-96269</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;He never cracks a Bible at home, has no discernable prayer life, has actually never witnessed personally, and he is successfully storing up hundreds of thousands of dollars to splurge on his retirement years as he and his wife travel around the world. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Rick, have you been talking to my wife?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>He never cracks a Bible at home, has no discernable prayer life, has actually never witnessed personally, and he is successfully storing up hundreds of thousands of dollars to splurge on his retirement years as he and his wife travel around the world. </p></blockquote>
<p>Rick, have you been talking to my wife?</p>
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		<title>By: Paul C</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/05/07/and-your-point-would-be/comment-page-9/#comment-96268</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 18:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=2855#comment-96268</guid>
		<description>John - those are sound comments and I agree that:

1. grace is given solely by God&#039;s goodness, not of our own

2. that without works, faith is not faith at all

The &quot;elephants in the room&quot; are more in number than James or John 1.  There are literally dozens of scriptures, a number by Paul, that speak of the necessity of obedience and living out our faith.  Of course, the Lord will judge every man on his own merit based on the measure of grace delivered - that is not our job.

Grace is independent of us.  But eternal salvation has a lot to do with our response to God&#039;s grace.

In the scriptures Rick quoted above  (#428) it is interesting to note that every one which notes &quot;works&quot; is not dealing with living out our faith, but only dealing with the ceremonial law.

This failure to isolate the fact that Paul was speaking to Jews who were insisting that law keeping was, renders the word &quot;works&quot; a bad word.  We essentially end up lumping all reference to works together.

As Paul said to those who received grace, &quot;The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.&quot;   There is a life to be lived.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John &#8211; those are sound comments and I agree that:</p>
<p>1. grace is given solely by God&#8217;s goodness, not of our own</p>
<p>2. that without works, faith is not faith at all</p>
<p>The &#8220;elephants in the room&#8221; are more in number than James or John 1.  There are literally dozens of scriptures, a number by Paul, that speak of the necessity of obedience and living out our faith.  Of course, the Lord will judge every man on his own merit based on the measure of grace delivered &#8211; that is not our job.</p>
<p>Grace is independent of us.  But eternal salvation has a lot to do with our response to God&#8217;s grace.</p>
<p>In the scriptures Rick quoted above  (#428) it is interesting to note that every one which notes &#8220;works&#8221; is not dealing with living out our faith, but only dealing with the ceremonial law.</p>
<p>This failure to isolate the fact that Paul was speaking to Jews who were insisting that law keeping was, renders the word &#8220;works&#8221; a bad word.  We essentially end up lumping all reference to works together.</p>
<p>As Paul said to those who received grace, &#8220;The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.&#8221;   There is a life to be lived.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Frueh</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/05/07/and-your-point-would-be/comment-page-9/#comment-96267</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Frueh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 18:27:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=2855#comment-96267</guid>
		<description>John - Concerning these &quot;humanly discernable expressions&quot; I would ask, who decides what are and what are not authentic expressions? The white, middle aged man who only curses occasionably, he&#039;s active in a church (Sunday School and the whole route), and he is faithful to his wife as well.

He never cracks a Bible at home, has no discernable prayer life, has actually never witnessed personally, and he is successfully storing up hundreds of thousands of dollars to splurge on his retirement years as he and his wife travel around the world. 

No one questions his salvation.

The gay evangelical doesn&#039;t curse, he is active in his church, he actively studies the Scriptures and has a prayer life. This professing believer does not see his lifestyle as against God, but he volunteers in a soup kitchen, helps conduct an AIDs sufferer&#039;s support group, he gives to African missions, and he has been freed from a life of drug addiction and a many partner sexual practice.

Many would question his salvation.

Here is my view:

* It may be that neither are saved.
* It may be that the straight man alone is saved.
* It may be that the gay man alone is saved.
* It may be that both are saved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John &#8211; Concerning these &#8220;humanly discernable expressions&#8221; I would ask, who decides what are and what are not authentic expressions? The white, middle aged man who only curses occasionably, he&#8217;s active in a church (Sunday School and the whole route), and he is faithful to his wife as well.</p>
<p>He never cracks a Bible at home, has no discernable prayer life, has actually never witnessed personally, and he is successfully storing up hundreds of thousands of dollars to splurge on his retirement years as he and his wife travel around the world. </p>
<p>No one questions his salvation.</p>
<p>The gay evangelical doesn&#8217;t curse, he is active in his church, he actively studies the Scriptures and has a prayer life. This professing believer does not see his lifestyle as against God, but he volunteers in a soup kitchen, helps conduct an AIDs sufferer&#8217;s support group, he gives to African missions, and he has been freed from a life of drug addiction and a many partner sexual practice.</p>
<p>Many would question his salvation.</p>
<p>Here is my view:</p>
<p>* It may be that neither are saved.<br />
* It may be that the straight man alone is saved.<br />
* It may be that the gay man alone is saved.<br />
* It may be that both are saved.</p>
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		<title>By: John Hughes</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/05/07/and-your-point-would-be/comment-page-9/#comment-96266</link>
		<dc:creator>John Hughes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 18:02:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=2855#comment-96266</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;modicum of humanly discernable expression thereof.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Sorry, I was reading that Karl Barth quote and got carried away.  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>modicum of humanly discernable expression thereof.</p></blockquote>
<p>Sorry, I was reading that Karl Barth quote and got carried away.  <img src='http://prophets-priests-poets.info/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: John Hughes</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/05/07/and-your-point-would-be/comment-page-9/#comment-96265</link>
		<dc:creator>John Hughes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 18:00:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=2855#comment-96265</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Not of works lest any man should boast. Salvation is by faith and faith alone.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Rick, I agree and if one is pressed to a statement of absoluteness I pretty much agree with your comments here.  However, because the washing and rebirth by the Holy Spirit (i.g., regeneration) is a real (i.e., not theoretical) event it **will** produce works.  A transformed caterpiller can walk and does, but his primary mode of transportation is now flying.

The whole book of James is a treatise on faith without works is dead those and other Scriptures such as the 1 John passages are the elephant in the room.  

&quot;Grace is not defined by compliance&quot; but the acceptance of that grace through faith is proved genuine by works.   &lt;blockquote&gt;James 2:26 - For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

In this discussion &quot;grace&quot; and &quot;faith&quot; and &quot;justification&quot; often become convoluted.  However, as we all know, they are seperate, albeit necessarily intertwined, concepts.  Faith without works is dead, but grace without works is a non sequitor as grace is a unilaterial gift from God independant of the actions (or inactions) of individuals.

Grace, by definition &quot;unmerited favor&quot;, cannot be earned or forefitted.  But that grace when apprehended by faith does produce manifestations.

Works have no part with any aspect of grace, however works are part and parcel with saving faith, being an indisputable result of said saving faith in at least **some** modicum of  humanly discernable expression thereof.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Not of works lest any man should boast. Salvation is by faith and faith alone.</p></blockquote>
<p>Rick, I agree and if one is pressed to a statement of absoluteness I pretty much agree with your comments here.  However, because the washing and rebirth by the Holy Spirit (i.g., regeneration) is a real (i.e., not theoretical) event it **will** produce works.  A transformed caterpiller can walk and does, but his primary mode of transportation is now flying.</p>
<p>The whole book of James is a treatise on faith without works is dead those and other Scriptures such as the 1 John passages are the elephant in the room.  </p>
<p>&#8220;Grace is not defined by compliance&#8221; but the acceptance of that grace through faith is proved genuine by works.<br />
<blockquote>James 2:26 &#8211; For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. </p></blockquote>
<p>In this discussion &#8220;grace&#8221; and &#8220;faith&#8221; and &#8220;justification&#8221; often become convoluted.  However, as we all know, they are seperate, albeit necessarily intertwined, concepts.  Faith without works is dead, but grace without works is a non sequitor as grace is a unilaterial gift from God independant of the actions (or inactions) of individuals.</p>
<p>Grace, by definition &#8220;unmerited favor&#8221;, cannot be earned or forefitted.  But that grace when apprehended by faith does produce manifestations.</p>
<p>Works have no part with any aspect of grace, however works are part and parcel with saving faith, being an indisputable result of said saving faith in at least **some** modicum of  humanly discernable expression thereof.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Frueh</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/05/07/and-your-point-would-be/comment-page-9/#comment-96163</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Frueh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 17:28:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=2855#comment-96163</guid>
		<description>Not of works lest any man should boast. Salvation is by faith and faith alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not of works lest any man should boast. Salvation is by faith and faith alone.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett S</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/05/07/and-your-point-would-be/comment-page-9/#comment-96162</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 17:23:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=2855#comment-96162</guid>
		<description>Rick,
#426
I&#039;m not claiming to be an expert and your words may be bettter than mine. 
I think that if we realize that &quot;our obedience&quot; and &quot;our faith&quot; and &quot;our belief&quot; is not produced by us; then our fear of &quot;being saved&quot; can be replaced by faith, hope, and love.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rick,<br />
#426<br />
I&#8217;m not claiming to be an expert and your words may be bettter than mine.<br />
I think that if we realize that &#8220;our obedience&#8221; and &#8220;our faith&#8221; and &#8220;our belief&#8221; is not produced by us; then our fear of &#8220;being saved&#8221; can be replaced by faith, hope, and love.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul C</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/05/07/and-your-point-would-be/comment-page-9/#comment-96161</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 17:21:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://christianresearchnetwork.info/?p=2855#comment-96161</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This is dealing ceremonial law keeping, which means that we can never be justified by things like ceremonial washing or circumcision.  That is demonstrated in vs 29 (regarding the Jews)

It seems that many of the quotes above are dealing directly with the issue that the Jews still maintained that in order to be saved you needed to perform the law in addition to believing in Christ.  This was the crisis that reared its head again and again in Acts.  

But in no way is this minimizing the importance of keeping God&#039;s commands through Christ. 
___

&lt;blockquote&gt;Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Romans 5 is one of my favorites.  But in the same area (chapter 6), Paul says we are under grace, then goes on to say:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of &lt;strong&gt;sin, which leads to death&lt;/strong&gt;, or of &lt;strong&gt;obedience, which leads to righteousness&lt;/strong&gt;?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Paul goes on to say (Romans 8) (from Amplified):

&lt;blockquote&gt;THEREFORE, [there is] now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus, &lt;strong&gt;who live [and] walk not after the dictates of the flesh, but after the dictates of the Spirit.&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.</p></blockquote>
<p>This is dealing ceremonial law keeping, which means that we can never be justified by things like ceremonial washing or circumcision.  That is demonstrated in vs 29 (regarding the Jews)</p>
<p>It seems that many of the quotes above are dealing directly with the issue that the Jews still maintained that in order to be saved you needed to perform the law in addition to believing in Christ.  This was the crisis that reared its head again and again in Acts.  </p>
<p>But in no way is this minimizing the importance of keeping God&#8217;s commands through Christ.<br />
___</p>
<blockquote><p>Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.</p></blockquote>
<p>Romans 5 is one of my favorites.  But in the same area (chapter 6), Paul says we are under grace, then goes on to say:</p>
<blockquote><p>Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of <strong>sin, which leads to death</strong>, or of <strong>obedience, which leads to righteousness</strong>?</p></blockquote>
<p>Paul goes on to say (Romans <img src='http://prophets-priests-poets.info/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif' alt='8)' class='wp-smiley' /> (from Amplified):</p>
<blockquote><p>THEREFORE, [there is] now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus, <strong>who live [and] walk not after the dictates of the flesh, but after the dictates of the Spirit.</strong></p></blockquote>
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