So often I’ve tried to convince those in the blogosphere that what they are printing is false or less than accurate with no success.  But I can tell you that whenever someone sends me an email from the “source” I dismiss it out of hand because…well…that source is less than credible.

Often times we here try to point out that what is being promulgated as fact is actually skewed opinion wrapped with shreds of truth. This is done with a varying degree of success.

In lieu of the following article appearing this morning on MSN I will forgo my previous planned closing of the article.   Irish student hoaxes world’s media with fake quote.

The student Shane Fitzgerald had this to say:

“I am 100 percent convinced that if I hadn’t come forward, that quote would have gone down in history as something Maurice Jarre said, instead of something I made up,” he said. “It would have become another example where, once anything is printed enough times in the media without challenge, it becomes fact.”

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This entry was posted on Tuesday, May 12th, 2009 at 11:19 am and is filed under Blogging, Chris Rosebrough, Dwayna, Editor, Ingrid, Ken Silva, LHT, Mike Ratliff, pastorboy. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
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138 Comments(+Add)

1   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 12th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

I am calling it the “Trotsky Effect”. :cool:

2   Chris P.    
May 12th, 2009 at 1:06 pm

2Thess 2:
9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,
10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Did I just type in a hoax quote?
There is no sovereign God in your blogosphere.
Who do you think you are?
Bite me; and you can quote me accurately on that.

3   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 12th, 2009 at 2:05 pm

Chris P. said, and I quote, “Bite me”.

I will tell my little grandsons that those are the words of grace filled believer, to say nothing of a revelation of his soaring intellect. :cool:

4   Paul C    http://www.themidnightcry.com
May 12th, 2009 at 2:07 pm

Being honest here… is Chris P a real person or is he just kidding?

5   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 12th, 2009 at 2:14 pm

Paul – here is Chris Pajak’s blog.

6   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 12th, 2009 at 2:21 pm

I think James would support the OP and comment on Chris P’s addition in a single entry:

Likewise the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles and creatures of the sea are being tamed and have been tamed by man, but no man can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.

With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God’s likeness. Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.

Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.

7   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
May 12th, 2009 at 2:24 pm

Am I missing something, Chris P?
I’m not understanding your comment at all…not even a little.

8   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 12th, 2009 at 2:25 pm

#7 – Too bad – bite him.

9   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
May 12th, 2009 at 2:28 pm

I think the proper way of stating that would be “Gnash upon me.”

10   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 12th, 2009 at 2:40 pm

I will bite you, but if you repent I will refrain from chewing.

11   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
May 12th, 2009 at 2:54 pm

I am amazed that I can be tagged on a blog, yet I am in moderation and cannot respond.

And specifically, pray tell, does this have to do with me?

Everything that I do or say is about quotes, videos, sermons, etc. that the people say. Words mean things. As always, I try as much as possible, to provide context. But if little ole me interprets words a specific way, somebody in this wide world must interpret them similarly.

I echo Chris P…not in the bite me part, but in the well quoted scripture. Many of you and the preachers you follow and emulate/idolize are under a strong delusion, or perpetrating false teaching.

Even my 14 year old can see it.

12   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
May 12th, 2009 at 2:57 pm

I repent. I guess I am no longer on moderation.

13   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 12th, 2009 at 3:03 pm

Being honest here… is Chris P a real person or is he just kidding?

He is a real person who thinks he is protecting God and His Truth. Chris P seems to think God is too weak to protect his own truth and that God’s truth is to fragile to protect believers… so he comes here and uses graceful words like “bite me” to convince those he believes are less worthy of Grace than he is they are soooo wicked.

Yes Chris P is real… and he is a product of the farce called the Truth War where Truth is the only real victim and grace means nothing but a word mouthed by people like him who do not even know what the word really means.

iggy

14   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 12th, 2009 at 3:04 pm

PB,

I have talked to one of your “disciples” who has a sick and perverted concept of reconciliation… in fact it is so contrary to the bible you should be the last to talk about anyone else as far as false teaching.

iggy

15   nc    
May 12th, 2009 at 3:05 pm

The god who is Chris P speaks!!!

Hush in reverence and silence as his “word” goes forth.

Selah….

What could this new revelation of “Bite me” mean?
How are we to discern such immeasurable wisdom from on high?

Yea, let us reason together…

It seems that this new “word” could be a re-affirmation of transubstantiation–in that we actually do bite the almighty Chris P–knower of hearts and minds. (May your name be exalted forever!)

OR…

this new “word” could be something altogether marvelous in that even as he has commanded us to bite him, we should go forth biting each other in his acerbic name.

16   nc    
May 12th, 2009 at 3:10 pm

A new entry for the museum of idolatry

What with Chris P’s pic so prominently displayed, dancers, pictures of bands on stages in front of people in theatre style seating, full on lighting rigs, etc. etc.

sounds like you’re a candidate for “goat herder”, Chris P.

You’ve got a veritable celebrity driven, circus church going on…

“bite me” indeed. hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

17   nc    
May 12th, 2009 at 3:12 pm

PB,

what strong delusions? What exactly are we deluded over here?

I’d love to know…

If you care so much for the lost…

show some concern and please enlighten me.

18   Nathanael    http://www.borrowedbreath.com/
May 12th, 2009 at 3:16 pm

Even my 14 year old can see it.

PB,
I grew up in a very legalistic, fault-finding church.
At 14, I could spot “heresy” and other bogeymen at a distance and dispute them as well.

I was not even saved yet.

Our environment will contribute to what we “see.”

I’m not saying your son does not have discernment or cannot spy error. But it’s possible that it is easier for him to “see” things due to the influence you are having in his life.

Shalom

19   nc    
May 12th, 2009 at 3:18 pm

Chris P,

you say there is no sovereign God in this blog…

Don’t be bitter about your lack of sovereignty…

You’ve given yourself the position in name…if that’s not enough then we’re right about you and your anger/control issues.

You’re such a picture of purity yourself, Chris P. Are you sure you’re really in a position to be leading people in worship when you clearly have nothing but murderous words for people here?

Really?

I do praise God for you, Chris P. It’s people like you and others who make me praise God for the gift of my “delusions”.

20   nc    
May 12th, 2009 at 3:18 pm

Praise you and your 14 year old, PB.

Praise you…

21   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
May 12th, 2009 at 3:20 pm

I echo Chris P…not in the bite me part, but in the well quoted scripture. Many of you and the preachers you follow and emulate/idolize are under a strong delusion, or perpetrating false teaching.

Uh, I’m not sure that was the point of this post. I think it had something to do with repeating the same lie long enough until you believe it is true. Oh, wait. I guess you are on to something John. Tell people long enough and loud enough that ‘we’ are heretics and eventually even 14 year-olds will believe it. Good job John.

22   nc    
May 12th, 2009 at 3:21 pm

PB,

Seriously…you say things like “I repent” for simply making a mistake.

It’s not a big deal to still think you were in moderation.

It’s the need to “go there” and cast things in those kinds of terms that just is so weird to me.

You don’t need to “repent”. The fact that you have to saddle things with that level of intensity really makes me sad for you.

You say it’s about grace, but a simple mistake that has nothing to do with morals, christian witness, etc. is suddenly in the “repent” category.

So strange.
So baffling.
So very, very sad.

23   nc    
May 12th, 2009 at 3:23 pm

#19

Thank you, Jerry for pointing that out.

I mean, Chris P, over-reacted on this one and PB picked up the rope.

Chris P is simply over the top and he’s getting pretty close to Paul Proctor’s category for me.

24   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
May 12th, 2009 at 3:26 pm

Chris P is simply over the top and he’s getting pretty close to Paul Proctor’s category for me.

As I said on the other thread, I don’t believe the Chris P who comments here is the same one who blogs elsewhere. I think they are two different people. I kind of feel bad for him because his blog has some good stuff on it.

25   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
May 12th, 2009 at 3:27 pm

#20
The repentance was for lying, though it was actually a mistake.

I made a false accusation. I was no longer on moderation. I needed to repent publicly, for I made a false claim.

I want to live at peace.

So sorry that you believe badly of me. I was simply trying to apologize.

Please forgive me, NC for being so careful. I just want to be right with God and my fellow man.

Shalom.

26   Scotty    http://scottysplace-scotty.blogspot.com/
May 12th, 2009 at 3:27 pm

Pastorboy: I am amazed that I can be tagged on a blog, yet I am in moderation and cannot respond.

Interesting, kind of like some of your friends that don’t allow comments when they tag folks? Yet despite moderation, you were allowed to make your point.

27   nc    
May 12th, 2009 at 3:28 pm

Isn’t Chris P, “Chris Pajak”?

He should listen to song #5 here

It’s totally his theme song…

28   nc    
May 12th, 2009 at 3:31 pm

PB,

Seriously, I think it’s cool to want to be at peace and all…

but just an “oooops, I guess I’m actually out of moderation now. Thanks, guys.” would do.

It’s cool…

29   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
May 12th, 2009 at 3:46 pm

I am amazed that I can be tagged on a blog, yet I am in moderation and cannot respond.

And specifically, pray tell, does this have to do with me?

Last time I checked you have brutalized Nooma’s with half-truths, proof texts, and your own cultural bias.

One thing I will give you is that you do allow comments.

Everything that I do or say is about quotes, videos, sermons, etc. that the people say.

With half-truths, proof texts, and your own cultural bias.
I once had lunch with a Wycliffe translator and he told me the challenges that they have in conveying scriptural concepts to foreign cultures. His favorite passage in scripture was “Behold the chicken who takes away the sins of the world”. Because in their culture they knew nothing of “lambs”. But that’s okay if your a missionary to a foreign culture, it’s not okay if you are a missionary to Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Words mean things.

Which was often said to me by someone who had such a narrow view of God and a very black and white view of the world. Words mean things. But so does inflection, regional trends, personal history, and context. If you order a Coke in Michigan they give you a Coke. If you order a Coke in Georgia they’ll ask you if you want Pepsi or Coke or 7 up. If you order a Pop in South Carolina they’ll ask you what you mean.

As always, I try as much as possible, to provide context. But if little ole me interprets words a specific way, somebody in this wide world must interpret them similarly.

Probably. But consensus is hardly truth.

30   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 12th, 2009 at 3:54 pm

The deeper principle of Chris’ post is that infromation influences people, even if that information is wrong. Additionally, tone and context are often used to shade the truth.

31   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 12th, 2009 at 4:39 pm

The link to “Camp on This” has been removed from the Biblical Resources heading on CRN. “Steve Camp” remains under the Research Links heading.

Coincidence?

32   rabanes    http://abanes.com
May 12th, 2009 at 5:37 pm

PB: Words mean things.

RA: Maybe you could explain these words, pastorboy:

“The hate that Richard Abanes has for Christians is despicible.” — pastorboy

Uhm, just fyi, I don’t hate Christians. Now, what do you say?
______
PB: “I made a false accusation. . . . I needed to repent publicly, for I made a false claim.”( #25)

RA: I just thought I’d point out the above remark, which is also a false accusation. Again, I ask, now what?

:-)

RAbanes

33   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
May 12th, 2009 at 5:47 pm

I reiterate my contention that these Chris P’s in #2 and #16 are not the same person. I just do not believe it.

34   John Hughes    
May 12th, 2009 at 6:13 pm

I have a confession. I am reading here of late solely for the entertainment value. I think there was an article about that a while back. Sort of reminds of the stoning scene in “The Life of Brian”. Seemingly, there is but a “Cast of 1o’s” of late and truthfully the same ole regulars that lobe invectives back and forth could save a lot of energy by just cutting and pasting responses from one article to another. I did take a hiatus for a couple of weeks, but I’m addicted and keep getting drawn back in by all the high **drama**. You guys are truly intelligent, sharp and witty. Great fun this! I even lob a few myself sometimes and oh what fun, but I’m strictly an amateur in comparison and know my limitations.

I’m convinced that **righteous indignation** is a disease (RID)which infects all indiscriminately and clouds the mind of normally sane and caring Christians. We come back to a discussion days or weeks later and wonder “did I write that? Wow.” So anyway, A+ for entertainment guys. Keep up the ______ work.

35   Joe    
May 12th, 2009 at 6:47 pm

John Chisham,
You’re the one who taught me that the post doesn’t have to be about the people you tag. You tag me in a ton of your posts, and then proceed to not mention me at all, b/c they have nothing to do with me.

36   nc    
May 12th, 2009 at 6:58 pm

#34

THAT was funny actually.

Thanks, right back at ya…

;)

37   rabanes    http://abanes.com
May 12th, 2009 at 7:49 pm

LoL, Joe. Tagging is another ODM game.

They just pop in names of peeps they don’t like on posts that are all over the place: from Roman Catholicism, to Emergent, to Gays, to Obama, to Abortion, to…..well, you name it.

It just has to be something negative and your name gets inserted in there even if you’re not mentioned and you have no idea what they’re going on about.

It’s kind of interesting, TBH.

RA

38   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 12th, 2009 at 8:08 pm

Steve Camp is now removed completely from CRN blog rolls.

39   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
May 12th, 2009 at 9:21 pm

I only post Joe’s name when I write something about his pastor.

Richard, the hate that you display for Ingrid S, Ken Silva, and even lil ole me is despicable. I am shocked YOUR name was not posted as a tag on this article. You have everybody (well, not me) believing all this tripe about what went on with Ken Silva and shutting down his site by threatening a lawsuit! That is just one thing. You are a backbiter and a slanderer towards believers in Christ Jesus. That is how you display hate. Towards Christians. So there.

And I stand by those words. No apology needed.

40   rabanes    http://abanes.com
May 12th, 2009 at 9:27 pm

Sigh….. :-(

RA

41   Brendt Waters    http://www.csaproductions.com/blog/
May 12th, 2009 at 9:30 pm

I only post Joe’s name when I write something about his pastor.

Why?

42   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 12th, 2009 at 9:34 pm

Richard,

PB will repent over silly things but overlook the important things like forgiveness and not bearing false witness… and will accuse those he victimizes.

He is truly a modern day “modernist-Pharisee”.

43   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 12th, 2009 at 9:39 pm

PB teaches a condition reconciliation… meaning that we must do the work of repentance to be saved.

The bible teaches that we WERE reconciled at the Cross.. and that we now can receive salvation unto Life though the Power of the resurrection.

Thurstin is a disciple of PB and is clear that this is what he was taught by PB… God’s forgiveness is conditional according to PB.

Come back to the truth of the bible PB and forsake your man-made false gospel of works… repent and learn grace and forgiveness toward others.

iggy

Romans 5: 10. For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Romans 3: 22. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24. and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

44   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 12th, 2009 at 9:40 pm

Sorry that should be “PB teaches a conditional reconciliation”

45   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
May 12th, 2009 at 10:03 pm

You have everybody (well, not me) believing all this tripe about what went on with Ken Silva and shutting down his site by threatening a lawsuit! That is just one thing.

And ladies and gentlemen we have here a perfect example of what I was getting at in the OP.

I did the research on this. It’s not exactly like that. According to the IP and from Ken’s own mouth. So…perfect illustration.

BTW I’m not opening up this “can of worms” again.

46   rabanes    http://abanes.com
May 12th, 2009 at 10:48 pm

chris: BTW I’m not opening up this “can of worms” again.

RA: ROFL!!!!! Please, please, please, please DON’T!! :-)

RA

47   Coop    http://whileromeburns.blogspot.com
May 12th, 2009 at 11:03 pm

Sorry to put this off topic, but the submissions form does not seem to be working, and I have an article I’d like to submit. I didn’t see a Contact option or I would have used that.

That’s all; back to your regularly scheduled debate/discussion.

48   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 12th, 2009 at 11:53 pm

Coop – The submissions form works (in capturing suggestions), but breaks (when it tries to email us). I’ve added your article to a submission on the main page.

Thanks!

49   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
May 13th, 2009 at 8:26 am

Iggy, you are another one who hates Christians.

You say that you set up days of prayer for Ken Silva and Ingrid S, yet you bad mouth them and backbite and say nasty things about them all year long. Especially about Ingrid on that last OP! Your offer to pray for them looks hypocritical, and actually a little sarcastic.

So, say all you want about me, point the finger at me. You better take that plank out of your eye and repent and get right.

50   rabanes    http://abanes.com
May 13th, 2009 at 11:43 am

Pastorboy, I am assuming, however, that you, Ken, Ingrid, etc., etc., etc. (insert favorite ODM)….DON’T hate he various “clown pastors” who lead “fake churches” full of “unregenerate” (not to mention all those painted whores of Sodom).

In other words, you can basically say anything you want to say using any words you want, make whatever accusations you wish to make, accuse whomever you want to accuse, raise false accusations by the dozen — and that is not hate.

But anyone who dares call you to accountability or anyone who dares criticize your approach, language, and/or accuracy is guilty of hate. Hmmm. Interesting.

You note: “You better take that plank out of your eye and repent and get right.”

I have a scripture for you: “But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.” (Matthew 12:36-37).

RA

51   Brendt    http://csaproductions.com/blog/
May 13th, 2009 at 1:41 pm

In case my question was missed before:

I only post Joe’s name when I write something about his pastor.

Why?

52   Joe    http://joemartino.name
May 13th, 2009 at 4:16 pm

I believe this called “crickets”

53   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 13th, 2009 at 5:07 pm

Iggy, you are another one who hates Christians.

You say that you set up days of prayer for Ken Silva and Ingrid S, yet you bad mouth them and backbite and say nasty things about them all year long. Especially about Ingrid on that last OP! Your offer to pray for them looks hypocritical, and actually a little sarcastic.

So, say all you want about me, point the finger at me. You better take that plank out of your eye and repent and get right.

Actually I quote them and then comment on how wrong and unbiblical they are… they supply the hate and nastiness. And funny that you support Ken mocking me praying for him…

You use a lot of word PB, but seem to not even know what they mean…

You hate… I love and pray for those who call me their enemies and confess their struggle with hating me.

I never call them enemies and never say they are not saved as you and they say of me.

So really PB, if they and you are willing to judge my eternal destiny and are willing to usurp God’s place in that… who is hating who?

iggy

54   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 13th, 2009 at 5:10 pm

BTW PB, I have stepped over the line with you… and that was because of your own words and that often you state unbiblical things as truth… your view on reconciliation as represented by someone who is your disciple who posts here bears witness to the false doctrine you pass as truth… you teach error and are a false teacher. Again, you are judged by you OWN words… here and later before Jesus.

iggy

55   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 13th, 2009 at 5:54 pm

Is this an example of “count it all joy”? Moan and groan about coming persecution and notice this statement at the end of Proctor’s “woe is me” piece:

“When our Constitution and Bill of Rights are completely discarded for the New World Order, there will be no going back to the way things were.”

Idolatry anyone?

56   rabanes    http://abanes.com
May 13th, 2009 at 6:12 pm

If anyone is interested, here’s the latest installment by ODMer Paul Proctor of what can only bean apparently new great Christian Fiction novel series. he certainly can’t be serious.

His fear-inspiring article is almost as good as This Present Darkness by Peretti:

“The enemies of Christ have clearly risen to great power in this country and are, even as I write, busy endeavoring finish off what remains of the church for the purpose of replacing it with a god and religion more suitable for global government.”

I certainly got goosebumps. :-)

RA

57   rabanes    http://abanes.com
May 13th, 2009 at 6:13 pm

LOL — Rick I just noticed your #53! Great minds think alike, I guess.

RA

58   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 13th, 2009 at 8:21 pm

My moderation is screwing up things… so it is comment 55. Just blame it all on me… :sad:

59   Neil    
May 15th, 2009 at 4:15 pm

Pastorboy,

I cannot speak for Chris in the OP, but I assume he tagged you because of you history of creating caricatures and then attacking them as if they exist.

This has been pointed out by me, and other, so often it’s become cliche. As far as I am concerned you do not lack complete credibility, yet… I would not trust what you say about anyone w/o verification from a reliable source.

You motivations may be true, but your methods often are not.

Neil

60   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 15th, 2009 at 5:10 pm

It is very unfrortunate that many of the ODMs employ such aristocratic and abrasive communication techniques since they often have legitimate issues that get lost in the verbal poison. Take for instance the Phyllis Tickle and Peter Rollins speaking engagements at Mars Hill. Someone please tell me either are saying here.

I have now listened to both several times and I find their teachings philosophical rubbish. A merry-go-round of ascriptural musings that have little if any resemblence to Christianity, at least as it concerns the teachings of the New Testament.

“God is doing a new thing” is not carte blanche for accepting all things new. Solomon warned us about new truth, and since the canan was complete anything “new” must be suspect until it ligns up with Scripture.

All these modern musings, parables, Jewish fables, philosophical stories, and emerging schools of thought that make little reference to the cross and resurrection, to say nothing of the blood, are tickling the ears of the modern sophisticates, the majority of which are between 20 to 40.

I await someone to tie in Biblically what Tickle and Rollins seem excited about in their mutual “how spiritually preciant you are” episode.

61   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
May 15th, 2009 at 8:00 pm

#60 (I think)
Amen Rick.

The stuff that is spewed out of the mouths of these modern day philosophers is just eastern religion repackaged and new-age mumbo jumbo with no blood, resurrection, sin, or even eternal life attached. It is all about the here and now, man bringing heaven to earth now through good works absent the Spirit.

62   Joe    
May 15th, 2009 at 9:26 pm

#61
Does that mean you’re not going to answer Brendt’s question? Figures

63   Paul C    http://www.themidnightcry.com
May 15th, 2009 at 9:29 pm

Perhaps the greatest amount of drivel I’ve ever heard in 6+ minutes… I didn’t think you could say so much without saying anything. Amazing.

Never heard of Phyllis before but I think her last nice has a lot to do with her calling. As for Peter, he’s just out in left field.

I agree with #61 and #60 completely. The fact that anyone would listen to this type of stuff and find anything of value is ridiculous. Blind leaders require blind followers, and they are not in short supply nowadays.

64   Paul C    http://www.themidnightcry.com
May 15th, 2009 at 9:29 pm

Sorry…

Never heard of Phyllis before but I think her last nice has a lot to do with her calling. As for Peter, he’s just out in left field.

“nice” should be “name”

65   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 15th, 2009 at 10:07 pm

You guys just don’t get it I guess… he is as clear as a bell to me in what he (Peter Rollins) is saying.

Out in left field?

So I guess then you let culture rule how you read the bible? He is speaking against that….

So I guess Wycliffe and such were out in left field for seeing the hole in the scripture…

It is about seeing that God is working and the scripture is alive today as it ever was.. if we keep our eyes and hearts open to what He is doing.

66   chris    
May 15th, 2009 at 11:50 pm

With all due respect; If you actually read a book by Phyllis or heard her speak in more than just a youtube video I would suspect that you would rethink your position. Oh nevermind…I forgot that never happens on a blog.

Commence the Orthodox lynch mob.

67   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 15th, 2009 at 11:54 pm

chris, Err ya fer her? err aginst her?

68   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 16th, 2009 at 12:31 am

chris – I have listened to her in more than one Youtube video and I find her abstract and mystical. I have yet to hear her or Rollins mention the blood or the cross at all.

The 4 part video of Tickle’s interview of Rollins is a fantasy land. I admit, I live on another theological planet. And I am not part of any “lynch mob”.

69   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 16th, 2009 at 1:16 am

Really Rick? I have listened to the first video you pointed out and he was very clear about Jesus as Savior…

But than… I was listening… I guess…

70   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 16th, 2009 at 4:22 am

I am almost overwhelmed when I think of what people are doing to the gospel of Jesus Christ. These are not new and fresh expressions of that glorious gospel truth, no, these are philosophical fables that seem so deep and penetrating and yet are linguistic caverns that are empty of redemptive truth.

Repairing the wrongs that abound in this world is a noble venture but without the saving message of faith in Jesus Christ it becomes the offering of Cain. What separates us as believing followers of the Lord Jesus Christ is the gospel, and all our good deeds must be unmistakably tethered to that gospel or we risk becoming the servants of needs and not servants of Christ.

Who could have ever forseen the humanitarian shift that is now taking place, and presented as the gospel ministry of Jesus in and of itself. And the implication is that the preaching of the gospel of Christ cannot be considered the unfettered conduit to eternal life, it must be expressed through works of God’s kingdom.

Men like me have spoken extensively against self righteous verbiage that attacks everything in its path, and some like me have attempted to give those within the emergent movement the widest consideration of grace. But it is evident that the train continues down the tracks, gaining momentum, and unencumbered by clear Scriptural gospel truth. And the issues of homosexuality and others like it now seem peripheral, because we now have arrived at the age old question that asks, “What must I do to be saved?”.

And as much as can be ascertained by decipering some of the philisophical verbiage, men and women can be eternally saved without ever trusting Christ by faith in the same way as millions have done throughout the formers ages. An awakening to the physical needs and sufferings of people is the evidence that one has been “born again” into God’s kingdom.

This, my friends, is not Christianty. These are well crafted fables that excite the flesh and soothe the conscience but have no redemption in them at all.

71   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 16th, 2009 at 10:30 am

Rick,

If you offend someone and have a chance to just say sorry… do you HAVE to share the gospel with them? If you cut someone off on the road and then see them later… do you HAVE to add the gospel while saying sorry for you wrong?

If you run over your neighbor’s fence, do you repair it and then HAVE to give them the gospel?

Personally some things we should just be doing… it should innate in our nature.

And people should just see there is a difference about us even without having to preach at them at every chance.

iggy

72   Scotty    http://scottysplace-scotty.blogspot.com/
May 16th, 2009 at 11:12 am

I usually don’t have the time to listen to videos nor read everything that’s going on out there but, I did have time now to listen to the Tickle, Rollins videos.

All I came away with was a scratching of my head…..being an old fart on the verge of sixty I’ve seen many things, epiphanies , revelations come and go. Time will tell.

But, I came away with this on the videos: They don’t want to nail truth, it’s not about pinning down some right answer and the kicker for me, (these all being said by Rollins) it’s not about right reading of text.

It’s those thoughts that gave us the “Health and Wealther’s” The “NEW” apostles/ prophets that are on the scene now( Take a peak at Elijah List, if you haven’t already). And NUMEROUS number of cults out there that operate under the guise of being Christians.

I certainly can’t pass judgment on Rollins or Tickle based on just those four videos but they did leave me with an uneasy feeling deep in my Spirit.

One other small point, the need that some people to have to apologize for western Christianity, ( there was a small reference like that from Tickle). Albeit it was just a tiny piece in that video that DOES seem to be something that fuels the current of some of this…..

Just an observation on my part, something I don’t do often…..

73   Paul C    http://www.themidnightcry.com
May 16th, 2009 at 1:12 pm

They are simply clouds without water and empty wells.

When you start hearing junk about kinetic energy and ‘Lilith’ (whoever that is) it’s time to shut it off.

2 Tim: But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Someone is not hateful or circling the wagons for a lynching when they point out what is obvious.

74   rabanes    http://abanes.com
May 16th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

ooops, accidentally posted this on other thread. Here it is where it belongs….

_______BEGIN

Now we have Lighthouse Trails going after Calvary Chapel…..seriously.

From the Lighthouse – the blog of Lighthouse Trails Research

My response…In Defense of Calvary Chapel: Say No to Lighthouse Trails.

So sad.

RA

75   Scotty    http://scottysplace-scotty.blogspot.com/
May 16th, 2009 at 2:52 pm

Back in the day, when certain blogs still had comments sections, I made a comment that I went to CC…..YIKES!! I was pretty naive as to what some thought about CC.

76   rabanes    http://abanes.com
May 16th, 2009 at 3:10 pm

I don’t always agree with everything that is CC, or Chuck Smith, or …… whatever. But I love, respect, and often recommend CC.

And I have a special place in my heart for CC because that was where I really first started to grow in Christ — under Raul Ries back when he was in West Covina. I was baptized at Raul’s church and that was the first place where I ever actually served in a church ministry — i.e., the music ministry.

TBH, attacks like this from LTR (or any ODM) on CC actually makes me even more upset than attacks on Rick Warren because leveling charges like these against CC is just so far out there I have no words. It’s absurd to the extreme…near lunacy, imho.

For all its faults and frailties that are natural and human, you just can’t get any more traditionally Bible-centered than the CCs.

RA

77   Neil    
May 16th, 2009 at 4:20 pm

The stuff that is spewed out of the mouths of these modern day philosophers is just eastern religion repackaged and new-age mumbo jumbo… – PB

The fact that he speaks of God as an objective singularity pretty much negates this claim

…with no blood, resurrection, sin, or even eternal life attached. It is all about the here and now, man bringing heaven to earth now through good works absent the Spirit. – PB

Once again, someone is condemned for not answering a question that was not asked. NONE of these elements you lament were part of the discussion.

I don’t know Tickle and Rollins, but these accusation are bogus when taken from this clip. (see comment #59)

78   Neil    
May 16th, 2009 at 4:24 pm

When you start hearing junk about kinetic energy and ‘Lilith’ (whoever that is) it’s time to shut it off.

First, if you had listened to the video, Rollins explained who Lilith was… so I wonder if you really listened. And shut it off because he used a Jewish fable as an illuatration, really, even when he proceeded to deny it’s reality? What other illustrations are off limits?

79   Neil    
May 16th, 2009 at 4:25 pm

I certainly can’t pass judgment on Rollins or Tickle based on just those four videos but they did leave me with an uneasy feeling deep in my Spirit. – Scotty

I agree, something did not seem right about it…

80   Neil    
May 16th, 2009 at 4:27 pm

Maybe we should stick to one link per thread…

81   Neil    
May 16th, 2009 at 4:36 pm

“What must I do to be saved?”

And as much as can be ascertained by decipering some of the philisophical verbiage, men and women can be eternally saved without ever trusting Christ by faith in the same way as millions have done throughout the formers ages. An awakening to the physical needs and sufferings of people is the evidence that one has been “born again” into God’s kingdom. – Rick

I agree Rick, this is not Christianity. Getting back to the OP, this is how to interact with a commentary… actually interacting with it, not making wildly unbased cliche accusations.

I am sorry to point you out Pastorboy, but you asked why you were tagged in the OP.

82   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 16th, 2009 at 5:30 pm

Some of the verbiage, research, and methodology of the ODMs has been well documented here ad infinitum. But when obvious departures from the Christian faith are ignored and in some cases defended, it undermines the objectivity and credibility of the entire blog, or at least of the individuals who refuse to speak directly to that issue with uncomfortable objectivity.

It is a serious issue, and begs the question “Who watches the watchblog watchers?” It is completely germaine to this subject and constitutes a wider application of the uneasy spirit of which Scotty spoke. The obvious abrogations of basic Christian truths in the writings and videos of Peter Rollins especially and Tickle as well are so severe and so lethal that is to me personally extremely disquieting to see such tepid responses if not outright ambivilance to say nothing of mounting a tortured defense.

To me this trumps any harmful verbiage offered by Ingrid or creative hyperbole written by Ken, this indicates a genuine lack of theological discernment on the part of any mature believer. And if an enjoyment of other perspectives by men like Bell obscure any objectivity in confronting these philsophical deceptions from Peter Rollins and Tickle, then it has become all too obvious that personal loyalties have triumphed over the loyalty to divine truth and specifically the gospel itself.

I take no joy or satisfaction from speaking to this issue, but these errors have become so pronounced and unvarnished that even the most charitable among us cannot help but speak what they believe God has placed in their heart. If men like Rollins are being welcomed and embraced to disseminate extreme falshoods and fables from evangelical pulpits,then they are no longer evangelicaland they have become conduits of the deepest and most destructive errors.

My heart has been heavy for days because I not only see clearly this tragedy, I have affections for the people who write and visit this blog. Perhaps I am an old man who is exhibiting the last gasps of a passing Christian culture, and perhaps I cannot find the resources within myself to look to the future horizons of the coming spiritual landscape.

But perhaps I am seeing the present scenario much too clearly.

83   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
May 16th, 2009 at 6:34 pm

I just want to know who watches the watchers of the watchers.

Anybody who can watch that video and see the Gospel believes a different Gospel.

Pure and simple.

I hope you all will listen tomorrow to http://www.blogtalkradio.com/One-One-Radio. It should be an interesting conversation. On the agenda will be “How does one inherit the kingdom of God” and we will also cover recent blog posts on Ordination, Homosexual Marriage, PSA, and why Christ Died and rose again.

84   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
May 16th, 2009 at 6:35 pm

Wow..the link didn’t work. It is Tony Jones who will be our very special guest.

85   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
May 16th, 2009 at 6:47 pm

#51

I answered that question Joe.

I said I post your name because it is about your Pastor.

86   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 16th, 2009 at 8:04 pm

Anybody who can watch that video and see the Gospel believes a different Gospel.

This may be true… I think it may be that we who understand the video put more faith in God being Sovereign and trust in His ability to save others… even more that anything more we can do ourselves.

In fact I think it is those that understand the video that can listen and follow the Spirit in His leading as opposed to pushing thorugh their own agenda just to appease their God by “preaching” at people…

So maybe, But I beleiver that one is more bible based, and the other more man based… and from what I have read of you.PB you are very man based in your faith and preaching….

Those that have ears to hear and eyes to see…

iggy

87   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 16th, 2009 at 8:06 pm

Neil, 77… agreed…

iggy

88   Scotty    http://scottysplace-scotty.blogspot.com/
May 16th, 2009 at 8:54 pm

#84

I mentioned a while back, Pastorboy, about not offending people before they hear the message. Based on what I read of you, I really can’t get excited about listening to you on this program. So, I doubt that I’ll listen.

89   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 16th, 2009 at 9:29 pm

It is 1856 and the idea that slavery is not biblical has become to be a major topic.

Paul C: I guess I am just old, but nothing changes and we have always had slavery… so we will always have the Bible’s teaching slavery is permitted.

Rick F: I am not sure why some preachers today are speaking against slavery, truth does not change so we will always have slavery. Though we should not abuse the slave, we should honor God’s truth that slavery is permitted and preach to the slaves. Yet without them the economy would fail so we should not rock the boat.

PB: The Bible is God’s word and clear in its teaching that slavery is ordained by God. In fact how would the slaves get saved if not for slavery? If we did not bring them to our culture as slaves as God teaches us to do in His word, then we would not be preaching the Gospel.

iggy: As I listen to the preaches today I hear the Spirit cry “freedom!” to the slave. I see that though Truth itself is not changing, the way we view it is changing and soon slavery will be thought of as unbiblical and unacceptable for any Christian, let alone any person in general to own slaves. Let the Spirit speaks and he who listens hear what the Spirit says!

At least that is what I see is going on in the discussion over Peter Rollins and Phylis Tickler…

iggy

90   merry    
May 16th, 2009 at 10:01 pm

Now we have Lighthouse Trails going after Calvary Chapel…..seriously.

From the Lighthouse – the blog of Lighthouse Trails Research

My response…In Defense of Calvary Chapel: Say No to Lighthouse Trails.

So sad.

rabanes,

That’s hilarious and sad because the one time I heard a speaker from Lighthouse Trails speaking about mysticism/emerging churches/Rob Bell/Rick Warren/Other Such Heresies was actually AT a Calvary Chapel.

I’m so confused . . . .

91   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 16th, 2009 at 10:11 pm

Iggy – Your comment has nothing to do with the issue, and the fact that you are blind to the issue is deeply unfortunate.

92   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 16th, 2009 at 10:33 pm

No Rick, you are blind that from the first sentence stated in the video Phyllis states that Truth does not change but our perspective of it does… that is the topic and what you are greatly missing in the conversation.

and THAT is deeply unfortunate as it completely relates to what I wrote and to your OWN blindness.

iggy

93   Paul C    http://www.themidnightcry.com
May 16th, 2009 at 10:46 pm

Iggy – aside from not understanding your comment to me (#89), at all… the fact that you find your thirst quenched from a well without water is unfortunate. You are deluded. May the Lord truly grant you eyes to see and ears to discern truth from error.

94   Joe    
May 16th, 2009 at 10:50 pm

John you said,

#51

I answered that question Joe.

I said I post your name because it is about your Pastor.

But you haven’t shared with us what it is you hope to gain by tagging me in posts that are about my pastor and not about me.

95   Joe    
May 16th, 2009 at 10:54 pm

BTW John Chisham,
You are right, you did answer the question but you missed Brendt’s second question.

96   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 16th, 2009 at 10:55 pm

Paul C,

You guys are making my point… the Truth does not change, but our perspective does… and you are still just playing out the parts as if this was the scenario I laid out.

In fact, there is much to drink in what is stated in the video… but unless you do not have ears to hear and eyes to see you miss it and stay parched.

There was a major paradigm shift in thinking about slavery and it being biblically acceptable. Now we would be shocked and rightfully so, if someone we knew had a slave! Even Secular society caught up with the Christians who fought for the freedom of slaves and the end of slavery.

Now we are at another major paradigm shift and some of you will still be fighting for the slave books instead of moving into the new paradigm of thought.

iggy

97   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 16th, 2009 at 10:57 pm

And both you and Rick are very rude in calling me deluded and blind over something YOU can’t see and I can…

Where are the mediators who called me on stating someone else had some mental issues… and here two people are doing that an not one moderator is man enough to stand up and call THEM on it…

Sad… again that double standard that is overcoming this blog is almost as bad as the ODM’s it attacks…

I miss the early days… I really do.

iggy

98   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 17th, 2009 at 8:20 am

To say “truth doesn’t change, just our perception of it” is just a clever way to redefine the changing of truth. Anyone can say anything they wish, but one must test the fruits rather than accept what anyone says at face value.

The Mormons say they just have a different perspective on truth, and the same for the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Christian Scientists. And if Rollin’s and Tickle’s Christianity is the correct/corrected version, then all the proceeding centuries have preached and lived a false gospel that ignored the needs of people and operated within a self made doctrinal framework that missed the core of what God’s kingdom was all about.

And it is time men like Rollins and Bell are honest about the former history of evangelical Christianity. At least the ODMs are open and honest about how they see this new emergent Christianity, but the emergent leaders should speak plainly about the implications of their new shift in teaching and focus. Men like Luther, Zwingli, Huss, Knox, Wesley, Whitefield, Moody, and thousands of others missed the mark and at the expense of spreading God’s justice upon the earth they counted noses in their evangelistic fervor.

They cannot just say the church has grown in wisdom or we see the same truth differently, that may be enough for people with shallow spiritual foundations or believers who are vunerable because of a disenchantment with the present evangelical church. But in reality this is not just a shift, this is a new religion. Both representations cannot be Christianity.

It is not my intention to be unkind in any way, but the deception has picked up speed with astonishing openness. And the conference called “Christianity 21” sponsered by Doug Paggit is one more amazing revelation of how spiritual mysticism and even nonesense is being offered as Christian. And Tony Jones calls these “voices” provocative and innovative, which is a clever way of avoiding the obvious.

Provocative and innovation is when the established truths of Scripture are used to challenge us all out of spiritual slumber into a new and dynamic expression of redemptive Christianity. Our calling, our focus, and our pursuit is the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the entire world. As we go we should help the downtrodden and poor, but that is the overflow of God’s gospel not the focus.

The quintessential predicament that binds the poor is not their financial situation, it is their spiritual condition. And to realign Christianity to address the earthly plight of the downtrodden without openly sharing the gospel of redemption is to hate their souls.

And when Rollins was asked how he would resond to someone who came up to him after he spoke and said, “Who is God and how can I meet Him?”, Rollins responded by saying,

“I wouldn’t answer that question. I would suggest that person go and feed the hungry, and help the poor, and generally be a help to the downtrodden people of this world and see if you meet God”.

That is about as deep as heresy gets.

99   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
May 17th, 2009 at 8:35 am

#97
awwww….Have an issue? use a tissue.

Really, Iggy. I am proud that on this blog the commenters have the courage to stand up and state the truth about God’s Word. Rick and Paul, Lord knows I do not always agree with them, but they are right on. How can you see anything but false teaching on that video? I’ll tell you; and I will be straight with you. You are being deceived. I urge you to filter Tickle’s and Rollins’ words through the Holy Scripture by the power of the Holy Spirit and allow the Word to be the final arbiter of what is true and what is false.

You are being captured by vain philosophies, my emergent friend. Watch out!

100   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
May 17th, 2009 at 8:36 am

I am #100!

101   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
May 17th, 2009 at 8:38 am

And iggy, I take offense of you stating that I would ever be for slavery.

How do you know if I wouldn’t be a southern abolitionist? I certainly take unpopular stands today.

102   Paul C    http://www.themidnightcry.com
May 17th, 2009 at 10:15 am

Iggy: the Truth does not change, but our perspective does

In the case of the video, this is just a tidy way of re-inventing /changing “truth” to suit your philosophy.

Now we are at another major paradigm shift and some of you will still be fighting for the slave books instead of moving into the new paradigm of thought.

The “paradigm shifts” are just gift-wrapped philosophies that roll in and then foam out as they reach the shore… it’s nothing new in the sense that people – especially PhD’s in philosophy – are never content with the simplicity that is in Christ. It’s just a fad.

Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from wise and intelligent people and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, because this is what was pleasing to you.

Iggy, what you are so enthralled about is the wondrous garb of the emperor. The problem is that he has no clothes. Sometimes it takes honesty and forthrightness to point this out.

103   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 17th, 2009 at 11:01 am

Paul C,

I guess some see and some just are too proud and arrogant to allow grace to work in them.

It is the opposite… it is the reliance on Gods view and dropping the man made philosophies that blind us from seeing the truth in a more clear way.

talk about deluded!

iggy

104   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 17th, 2009 at 11:15 am

PB,

I was not saying you now have that view of slavery, but in the paradigm you would have fought against the change then as you do now and I used you philosophical arguments… but you are just too stupid to figure that out… and I mean that… you are just stupid beyond measure… I know that is not kind… but sometimes the truth will set you free!

PB for you… It’s so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don’t say it…

I guess that is the acceptable standard here at this site now as some can call me delude and blind and go unrebuked…

Rick, of all people I cannot understand your ignorance in such a stupid thing as saying that Truth cannot change us and our view of it as we grow in Christ… in essence that is what you are stating…

I guess you deny the renewing of the mind the bible speaks of…

God gives grace to the humble and ears and eyes to see… while he resists the proud and leaves THEM in their delusion and rejection of truth…

I see clearly where you guys are… as I see what IS being stated…

iggy

BTW: If PB agrees with you; you most likely are very far off the reservation.

105   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 17th, 2009 at 2:07 pm

For the record:

John’s views are never in my consideration as I’m sure mine are not of his.

106   gordo    
May 17th, 2009 at 6:15 pm

Barak Obama – Notre Dame commencement speech:

In this world of competing claims about what is right and what is true, have confidence in the values with which you’ve been raised and educated. Be unafraid to speak your mind when those values are at stake. Hold firm to your faith and allow it to guide you on your journey. Stand as a lighthouse.

But remember too that the ultimate irony of faith is that it necessarily admits doubt. It is the belief in things not seen. It is beyond our capacity as human beings to know with certainty what God has planned for us or what He asks of us, and those of us who believe must trust that His wisdom is greater than our own.

This doubt should not push us away from our faith. But it should humble us. It should temper our passions, and cause us to be wary of self-righteousness. It should compel us to remain open, and curious, and eager to continue the moral and spiritual debate that began for so many of you within the walls of Notre Dame. And within our vast democracy, this doubt should remind us to persuade through reason, through an appeal whenever we can to universal rather than parochial principles, and most of all through an abiding example of good works, charity, kindness, and service that moves hearts and minds.

107   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 17th, 2009 at 7:31 pm

gordo – I always appreciate your comments and our e-mail interaction. I agree in general with Obama’s speech, however only to a point. mWhen you see someone walking toward a cliff, we must warn them regardless of how loud someone else says they are not.

108   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 17th, 2009 at 8:41 pm

Gordo,

This is exactly when and how to use discernment in a statement made by someone like the president… and this is my reasoning.

1. When we listen to a politician, we are listening to speech writers that have the only goal of making the president sound good.

2. Jesus stated: “by their fruit you will recognize them” and in discerning a statement like this, We need to look and see if the “fruit” produced is a product of repentance. Meaning, are the works being done by that person works of “rightness of God” or out of their own will.

3. Words mean something… yet when a Muppet mouths words, they lose their power. While I agree with Obama’s words, His actions, such as making USA citizens pay for oversea abortions and showing no grace toward the previous administration show me that personally I do not think he means the words he mouths. It becomes like someone who claims “I am a poor sinner and saved by Grace” and then bear false witness against others attack other poor sinners who have not been lead to Grace and they have. IOW’s they are graceless and merciless and show no ability to give forgiveness, grace, mercy and love to others… their words begin to mean nothing more and are annoying loud gong.

4. I am not against Obama… I felt this way with Bush also… and really the “do-nothing” Republicans did exactly that… nothing… yet they did and do show more grace and forgiveness toward the Democrats than some Democrats have ever shown.

So I see a huge difference between Obama saying this and McLaren or Rollings.

Words do mean something… but only if they are truly followed by actions… and to me, the last real president that wrote his own speeches from his own heart was Abe Lincoln who wrote the Gettysburg address on a napkins as he rode the train to speak. I sometimes wonder if the napkin had as many tears on it as the words he wrote.

iggy

109   Eugene    http://eugeneroberts.wordpress.com
May 18th, 2009 at 5:03 am

Iggy,

And both you and Rick are very rude in calling me deluded and blind over something YOU can’t see and I can…

Where are the mediators who called me on stating someone else had some mental issues… and here two people are doing that an not one moderator is man enough to stand up and call THEM on it…

Firstly, during the weekend the writers of CRN.Info are busy with a lot of other responcibilties and to keep track of every single comment is difficult, so please cut us some slack, ok?
Secondly, you should know Rick and Paul C well enough by now to know that when they make comments like that it is not aimed at your mental health but they feel that your are going down a wrong path and not seeing it. I realy don’t think they meant it in bad a way.

I was not saying you now have that view of slavery, but in the paradigm you would have fought against the change then as you do now and I used you philosophical arguments… but you are just too stupid to figure that out… and I mean that… you are just stupid beyond measure… I know that is not kind… but sometimes the truth will set you free!

PB for you… It’s so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don’t say it…

Please stop making insulting comments using a comment someone made about you as a license for rudeness. Your skin seems very thin at the moment. If you are going to be involved in provocative debates you have to let some comments roll off like water from a duck and focus on the issue.

110   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 18th, 2009 at 6:58 am

For the record – After Iggy made a comment that had something to do with slavery, I said he was blind to the issue about which I was dealing.

I still do not see any slavery connection.

This statement:

“Rick, of all people I cannot understand your ignorance in such a stupid thing as saying that Truth cannot change us and our view of it as we grow in Christ… in essence that is what you are stating…”

is a strawman since I said no such thing. If anyone feels that Tickle and Rollins respresent redemptive Christianity than they are entitled to that opinion.

111   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
May 18th, 2009 at 8:47 am

I miss so much when I stay out of the comment threads. Who is Tickle? Is Rollins the guy from the Henry Rollins Band? That’s hard core stuff there.

Anyhow…

Want some thought provoking encouragement?

Letting Love.

Maybe we’ll all be encouraged to love a little more.

112   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 18th, 2009 at 9:44 am

All: The story of slavery was the idea of Truth not changing but we as Christians being changed by and seeing truth clearer… I was talking more of the paradigm shifts that have already happen such as one time seeing slavery as acceptable by even Christians and now seeing it for what it really is… evil… yet your statements here against me concerning Rollins and Tyckle all sounded much like the arguments that Christians used to justify the evil of slavery. They justification of the “hole” in scripture that was not seen at the time that then later was seen clearly. When I said I see it clearly you said I was blind and deluded… (which is ironic if you ask me… that those that CAN”T see are not the blind ones and the one that CAN see is blind? LOL! How dumb is that!)

Eugene: I have received notes from people who thought I was not that out of line concerning my being moderated from another thread. I think the ones with thin skin are some of the writers who do not ever seem to apologize but justify their own words and actions that are at times over the line…

Yet it seems that instead of facing that as a man, they would rather moderate me. I stated my comment in the other thread and within that comment ended it… then the dog-pile began and I defended myself. until Chris Lyons and Neil(?) both decided I was the bad guy. During that time I was pointing out two items IN THE POST that as offensive is not more than what I stated…

The real Mr Thin Skin came and then justified that he words and picture were NOT offensive… which was a total laugh.

After that I was placed on moderation without the decency of even being told… again… a slap in the face from some I consider FRIENDS!… the thin skinned ones again are the ones that justify their words and then cowardly put moderation into action with telling me as a friend.

So Eugene… I am not thin skinned… I am angry with the double standard and ODM like behavior that some have started to display and ruin this site.

I am concerned for this site and have stated that a few times… I see it once was a great site that did have a higher standard and now has slipped into ODM mode at least in the commitments. I take some responsibility myself for that, but now think that Chris L and some others are making a mockery of their own standard in their inability to face their own wrongs.

I am calling you guys out to stand on your OWN higher standard and not use me as a scapegoat. Face your own wrongs. I see my moderation as a cover-up of someone else’s inabiltiy to just say sorry to someone else… and that person was in fact… Ingrid who Chris posted as a Harpy.

iggy

113   Joe    
May 18th, 2009 at 10:41 am

I see my moderation as a cover-up of someone else’s inabiltiy to just say sorry to someone else… and that person was in fact… Ingrid who Chris posted as a Harpy.

What? You lost me on that sentence.

114   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 18th, 2009 at 10:56 am

Joe,

It is in reference to this post by Chris L.

Which to me even the title though it was explained, was offensive.

115   Christian P    http://www.churchvoices.com
May 18th, 2009 at 11:08 am

Iggy,

The cover up comment is probably one of the most ridiculous things I’ve seen from you. You can see it how you want, but that doesn’t make it true. First of all, putting someone on moderation is a bit subjective, however, the subjectivity is in how far a person has gone in inappropriate comments, not whether something they said was inappropriate or not. Like we often say, we do keep each other accountable.

You go back and look at everything I personally wrote. I’ll let what I have posted here attest to my personal honesty. And now I’ll tell you, there was no cover up. There is no conspiracy.

As to the other things you wrote about, I haven’t been following, so I can’t speak about them, other than to say that we as writers fail. And we disagree. And we correct and rebuke each other. And sometimes we argue. And sometimes we come to agree. And sometimes we don’t. But what we don’t do is demonize each other.

116   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 18th, 2009 at 11:29 am

Christian P.

So if an ODM moderates someone for stating that they think what they wrote was too much… that is wrong and they are demonized for not being willing to address the topic and issue… it is fine, but if someone does it here it is right to put that person on moderation?

I have not demonized anyone… I am stating that the standards expressed here to be higher are no longer higher… they have fallen. You may not be one personally who had fallen, but to me some have. In fact if I must point this out… by you stating what you have just now stated, you sound much like CRN when the writers there do not call into account Ken Silva for his asinine articles. They use the same defense you just did. “I am not responsible for what others write on CRN, I am only responsible for my own posts.” Again… the standard has fallen.

To censor me… when I did stop and tried to tell others to stop and yet kept coming at me… then to justify what I stated was wrong about the post… and then be moderated without being told…. is just like Mike Ratliff and others who do the same thing…

If you disagree then you may be part of the problem.

I see that this site was better than the ODM… yet now I am seeing it may not be. And that is saying a lot coming from me. To demonize me, for trying to help you to see that the standard is falling is wrong and needs to be addressed.

I have been a huge supporter for this site in the past. I recommend it, link to it and see that in the past it has had great value… but to let it decay into the standards of the ODM’s is saddening and is making me re-think my support of this site.

Again I hope that means something coming from me… if not then I am deluded to think that my friends here give a damn about my opinion and will sadly treat this site as another ODM site.

I am calling you all to re-think, re-group and refocus…

I hope that is clear.

iggy

117   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 18th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

Foe the record:

I did not find any of Iggy’s comments to me offenisev and worthy of moderation. I did object to some of his comments concerning Ingrid inappropriate and he has forsworn any future such comments. Done.

I also do not find any pleasure in the fact that he believes he is being unjustly persecuted.

Iggy – You are severly overblowing the entire situation, and you may want to re-evaluate your emotional statements. I for one would remove you from moderation since the offending issues are no longer part of your comments.

I will continue to speak strongly about the things which I believe are important, and I do not take personally anyone’s strong disagreement.

118   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 18th, 2009 at 1:08 pm

Rick,

As far as the personal “issues” I may or may not have… I am stating much of this as I have been observing them before the moderation… and are apart from the moderation…

But to be moderated over the issue whether I see that Chris L was overboard about using a Harpy picture for Ingrid and then thinly justifying it was very strange and sad. Let alone not be told I am being moderated… which in my view was just petty and childish.

I am standing on my points here as to how this site has become more like an ODM site in how the writers are allowing people to be handled.

119   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 18th, 2009 at 1:12 pm

Rick,

Also I know I have strong opinions… and I uses strong words. I make no apology for this but do acknowledge and have in this thread I do go overboard… yet I see that others are not treated as I am at times and to just say, “we see you as more approachable/reasonable” is just condescending to me. If I am not wanted here then just tell me. Really I could lose a few social places I interact at… it would be time freeing.

Take that as “emotional” or whatever… I really don’t care.

iggy

120   Christian P    http://www.churchvoices.com
May 18th, 2009 at 5:37 pm

Iggy,

First of all, the issue of responsibility for what is written. I was telling you to read what I have written so that when I tell you there is no cover up, you will know where it is coming from. I also said that we keep each other accountable. That means that we hold each other responsible for what we write. We have a place to do that. And it happens. A lot.

As far as I understood it, you were warned you would be put on moderation and that this was not because you argued with Chris L. Everybody argues with Chris L. The timing of the moderation was due to the writers trying to communicate with each other and hold each other accountable and reconcile with each other while treating others appropriately. Communication takes time.

Give it a week for Chris L. to get home from vacation and then we can clear all of this up.

Also, just because somebody disagrees with you, doesn’t mean that they are a part of the problem. Even lack of interaction doesn’t mean they are part of the problem. Life can be challenging, and most of our writers right now have some very challenging, time consuming, and serious things going on in their lives right now.

Give us time, grace, patience, and love. We shall try to do show you the same as well.

121   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 18th, 2009 at 6:02 pm

Chris,

Thanks for your response…

122   Neil    
May 18th, 2009 at 8:14 pm

Anybody who can watch that video and see the Gospel believes a different Gospel.

Pure and simple.-PB

I didn’t see the Gospel either… then again, I don’t think that was the subject either…

123   Neil    
May 18th, 2009 at 8:24 pm

As far as I know, no one has ever been put in moderations for disagreeing – in general.

Iggy was not put in moderations for disagreeing – in specific.

124   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 18th, 2009 at 8:38 pm

Neil,

Funny that it did not come after the “warnings” but after I stated the OP was offensive… but whatever… this is getting nowhere and I am very disappointed. Not to mention that I was not told I was in moderation…

Even most ODM’s that allow comments will email a person and tell them they are being moderated… I expected at least more from here.

iggy

125   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
May 19th, 2009 at 12:48 am

Iggy,

It’s been asked and answered several times.

If you go to the comments of the OP you referenced. Everyone and I mean everyone told you that you crossed a line. Not once did you say “maybe I was wrong” you continued to defend your actions.

Furthermore when I challenged you on your verbiage you then began suggesting your offense with the OP. You were notified several times, on previous occasions, privately in emails, and in the thread comments that you were going to be moderated if you continued. You continued and were moderated.

Grace and Peace,
Chris

126   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 19th, 2009 at 2:54 am

Chris…

Unfortunately you need to go and re-read the thread… and you will find you just unintentionally lied about me.

I have even stated I was over the line a couple of times in THIS thread… so… please do not make this any worse that it is. Get the facts straight at least.

I received NO emails concerning that thread except from one fellow writer who thought you guys were over the line… so again… you may have “warned” me in the thread, yet no message was sent stating it had happen… so again I am just supposing you are unintentionally lying as you do not have the facts straight.

Really… I don’t care anymore… and sadly you keep making my points for me as far as justifying the keeping of the lower standard I am decrying.

iggy

127   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 19th, 2009 at 2:55 am

This site has become what the critics of it state it is… no different than they are.

I am truly saddened by all of this and am praying it will turn around.

iggy

128   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 19th, 2009 at 2:56 am

If you want to contact me further about this it will have to be through email… I will no longer wade through the hypocrisy of this site.

iggy

129   Neil    
May 20th, 2009 at 9:19 am

…this is getting nowhere and I am very disappointed. Not to mention that I was not told I was in moderation… – Iggy

Thoughts 1 and 2 are the same as mine.

130   Neil    
May 20th, 2009 at 9:26 am

…and sadly you keep making my points for me as far as justifying the keeping of the lower standard I am decrying.

…This site has become what the critics of it state it is… no different than they are.

…If you want to contact me further about this it will have to be through email… I will no longer wade through the hypocrisy of this site.

I suppose anything we say at this point will only exacerbate your anger, though I really cannot understand why you have taken this stance. And I say this as someone uninvolved in the original fray.

But comments like those above do not further the discussion and are rather melodramatic.

131   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 25th, 2009 at 6:45 pm

What do you make of this?

Is this true and if so will they be publicly corrected by the other ODMs?

132   ncgal53    
May 26th, 2009 at 6:47 pm

http://apostasywatch.com/Norrisexposed.htm #131 This article backs up what Phil Naessens has written and talked about Spiritual Pathways Ministries and Dave Norris. There is also evidence of reusing old articles under old writers names and putting them on the current web page under new writers names. I found some old cache articles myself and the evidence is on Phil’s site.

133   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 27th, 2009 at 6:50 am

ncgal – I am amazed at this stuff. For what reason would a man do this except extreme narcissim.

134   ncgal53    
May 27th, 2009 at 7:56 am

#133 That’s funny Rick I woke up this morning thinking the same thing. I guess it is just the sin nature taking control. Unfortunately the internet breeds this sort of behavior. You can hide behind your computer screen make yourself a web page and give yourself all kinds of inflated titles. Most people want to be just a little better than who they really are. I grew up under the shadow of a brother who was extremely intelligent and had to follow in his footsteps in school. ( He works for NASA in safety control for the Space Shuttle) I would love to have his brain power but I just don’t. I noticed that on the Spiritual Pathways site Bob DeWaay in no longer listed as a guest contributor. Good for them. Yesteday morning I commented on the Spiritual Pathways site on the article Listening to Jesse Duplantis asking where Chuck Swanson had heard Mr. Duplantis in person. He stated that it was at a church that used to meet in the Lafayette Mall. Then yesterday afternoon I commented that the Listening to Jesse Duplantis article was identical to the article of the same name that was written by Rob France in 2007. Rob France is supposedly dead but they both went and heard Jesse Duplantis the previous summer with an unpublished member of his group. By the way Dave Norris answered back to tell me where Chuck Swanson had heard Jesse Duplantis. Now if you go on the site you won’t find my comments or Dave’s. They have mysteriously disappeared. You’ll just have to take my word that this happened. I don’t believe anything on that site including the counter that shows how many people are on site. Christian Research Network is still linking to Spritual Pathways. WHY ???? There is also someone who comments named Alese Brink Davis who lives at the Merriam Webster web page. Are you real Alese? Crazy stuff Rick. Blessings

135   ncgal53    
May 27th, 2009 at 8:04 am

Correction: That would be Rod France. I keep doing that. It’s funny ’cause my oldest son is named Rod.

136   ngal52    
May 27th, 2009 at 9:23 am

Correction again. Nathan Cooke wrote the article about Jesse Duplantis. My apologies. I neglected to look at my fact sheet. Actually I can’t keep all the names straight on that site . David Norris, Nathan Cooke, Chuck Swanson, Rod France, Andrew Clarkson , to many alias names to remember. Nothing like me looking like an idiot in public. Oh well. I’m sure it won’t be the last time.

137   nc    
May 27th, 2009 at 10:39 am

ncgal,

I really like on that website how they spelled Anglican, “angelican”.

I’m surprised they also didn’t talk about them “cathy-licks” or the “homer-sexurals”.

138   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
May 27th, 2009 at 10:43 am

I am orthodocks.