Welcome back Chris… hope you had a lovely holiday.

I’m flying back tonight, but thanks

Jesus returned physically in AD70 – that’s precisely what happens when you come up with a theory and then try to squeeze everything into it (round peg, square hole theology).

Actually, if you reread the thread, I said I thought it might be possible that his return was a physical one. My position is the traditional one of the first 1800 years of the church – that the destruction of Jerusalem was (in the very least) the coming of judgment proclaimed by Jesus upon Jerusalem – and whether that return was literal or in consequence is really immaterial.

There are no round pegs in square holes, unless you start venturing into modernist Hal Lindsay (premil dispensationalist) territory.

You also tried to argue, however flimsy, that the man in 2 Thess 2 was either Domitian or Nero, even though that individual – whoever he may be – will be destroyed by the brightness of Jesus’ coming.

Nothing flimsy in that view. Just ask R.C. Sproul…

As for being destroyed by Jesus’ coming, it seems to me that – as Phil notes – in the course of history this is exactly what has occurred. You’re just falling into the same trap as Jesus’ disciples and the zealots of his time – expecting a political, physical kingdom and literal-physical judgment for all prophecy.

Yes, of course Chad… it’s all poetry. It’s not actual prophesy at all, is it? So clear now.

Actually, most scholars (& non-scholars) believe that Revelation is of the apocalyptic genre. (Hence, many translations referring to Revelation as “The Apocalypse of John”) Granted, most Christians have no concept of what “apocalyptic” means when applied to literature. Thus, they inadvertently place “apocalyptic” as synonymous with “(future) prophetic”. This is absolutely not the case.

Apocalyptic literature was used to symbolically convey modern events in a way that described them from a mystical standpoint. Its purpose is to explain – to reveal – how things really work that weren’t previously known before they were revealed in the apocalyptic work.

The modernist/literalist bent has tried to force Revelation into a genre of predictive prophecy – which is not at all. Rather, it is an explanation of the events in progress, recently completed, or very soon to come. The opening letters to the Seven Churches make it quite clear that John’s letter is very current and applicable to its readers. Its readers would understand (especially from the numeric use of 616/666) that John was making numerous references to the Caesars – something the early church also understood VERY well, up until the advent of the printing press, at which point literalism and individualism took hold.

I’m sorry if you’re disappointed in God for not writing a literalist book to people who were not literalists.

Here we go again… As I told Chris L, I’ve never read the books or seen the video. Sorry to disappoint, otherwise it would be so easy to pigeon-hole.

Only goes to prove what a grip that myopic and “new” eschatology has on our culture, especially here in the US. Many of the people in my church hadn’t read the Left Behind series yet they grew up hearing (and swallowing) its message. You seem no different.

Feel free to browse my blog for notes on most of this awesome book.

I remember reading an article you put out on Revelation in the past.

We do violence to the text and dishonor the message when we reduce it to some sort of Left Behind novel.

Here we go again… As I told Chris L, I’ve never read the books or seen the video. Sorry to disappoint, otherwise it would be so easy to pigeon-hole.

But prophesy does not mean reading tarot cards that predict some future thousands of years down the road that has nothing to do with the audience at hand.

It’s a wonder the Isaiah saw the coming of the Messiah hundreds of years before His incarnation. After all, it had “nothing to do with the audience at hand.”

John is writing to 7 churches with real needs, concerns and issues. He is their pastor.
He is also a prophet. And a poet.

John wasn’t just sitting on the island, bored stiff and then decided to put together a puzzle for the ages. Jesus is the messenger of the Book of Revelation. John is simply the vessel. The hope of the book is the hope of all who will believe throughout this age until Jesus’ return.

It is prophetic. But prophesy does not mean reading tarot cards that predict some future thousands of years down the road that has nothing to do with the audience at hand. John is writing to 7 churches with real needs, concerns and issues. He is their pastor.
He is also a prophet. And a poet.

Feel free to browse my blog for notes on most of this awesome book. I just finished teaching it in my church. It has as much to say to us, the church, today as it did in the 1st century. We do violence to the text and dishonor the message when we reduce it to some sort of Left Behind novel.

BTW, how’s your research coming that proves Songs of Solomon was the most-preached from book in the early church?

John is painting word pictures about God’s sovereignty and power over evil. The whore of Babylon for John is Rome and the Beast and its cohorts are the evils (emperors or otherwise) that stem from Rome. This apocalypse is not a prediction of end time events but an affirmation of who is truly on the throne to give assurance and encouragement to a persecuted and minority church in the shadow of empire and mystery religions.

Same can be said of 2 thess.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

It requires a significant dose of gymnastics to pull this out of context and apply it to Nero or Domitian.

Here we see a direct confrontation, precisely like Rev 19 which has yet to be fulfilled as well.

But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Again, this is a direct confrontation when Jesus finally returns to establish His kingdom on the earth.

You also tried to argue, however flimsy, that the man in 2 Thess 2 was either Domitian or Nero, even though that individual – whoever he may be – will be destroyed by the brightness of Jesus’ coming.

Well after 2,000 years who would you say is more influential and powerful – Domitian and Nero or Jesus? I’d say Nero and Domitian have fallen but Jesus is still on the throne. There’s nothing flimsy about that.

Others? Who besides Rick? My apologies for taking the traditional stance on eschatology for the first 1850 years of the church rather than the pipe dream of a snake-oil salesman and an adolescent girl with a “vision”.

Chris, read the thread again if you wish. You made some interesting claims that raised some eyebrows outside of me and Rick, but this one topped them all:

Jesus returned physically in AD70 – that’s precisely what happens when you come up with a theory and then try to squeeze everything into it (round peg, square hole theology).

You also tried to argue, however flimsy, that the man in 2 Thess 2 was either Domitian or Nero, even though that individual – whoever he may be – will be destroyed by the brightness of Jesus’ coming.

There were some other interesting comments as well.