Let’s play a game, shall we? Here’s how it works. I will quote to you the first three paragraphs of a popular book. You have to guess which book it is from. In part two, I will quote from a blog. You have to guess what the ‘admin’ is talking about. Here goes.
It’s not about you.
The purpose of your life is far greater than your own personal fulfillment, your peace of mind, or even your happiness. It’s far greater than your family, your career, or even your wildest dreams and ambitions. If you want to know why you were placed on this planet, you must begin with God. You were born by his purpose and for his purpose.
The search for the purpose of life has puzzled people for thousands of years. That’s because we typically begin at the wrong starting point–ourselves. We ask self-centered questions like What do I want to be? What should I do with my life? What are my goals, my ambitions, my dreams for my future? But focusing on ourselves will never reveal our life’s purpose. The Bible says, “It is God who directs the lives of his creatures; everyones life is in his power.”
That sounds to me like a fairly orthodox position to hold. I could probably find Scriptural support for every clause if I needed to. In fact, some of this might be a wee-bit too orthodox. Nevertheless, it will preach, it is Christian, it is Biblical, and it comes from the mouth of one ordained to preach the Gospel of Christ.
OK. On to part two.
Megachurch Pastor Rick Warren is working on his next book – the follow-up to the bestselling Purpose Driven Life, which launched the Southern California preacher into national prominence.
“I’m in book writing mode right now,” Warren reported in a broadcast to his church members Thursday. “I’ve gone back into hibernation to write the follow up to Purpose Driven Life now, eight years later. It’s going to be called The Hope of the World, and my plan is to release that on Easter Sunday – our 30th anniversary – next year.”
Warren had announced during the 2009 Purpose Driven Network Summit in May that he was going to take some time off soon to work on his next book, which will be about the Church and its role in today’s times.
On Thursday, the evangelical leader asked church members to pray for him as he’s writing. “[P]ray … that God’s Spirit will guide me in writing this next book just as He did with Purpose Driven Life so that it can change hundreds, thousands, and even more than of lives all around the world,” he said.
What God would that be; based upon all the Scripture-twisting and false doctrine within PDL, it isn’t likely it was the God of the Bible Who “guided” Warren. [This ends the second quote. It is not part of the CP article, but is a commentary by 'admin' on the CP article.--Jerry]
_____________________________
All I have ever heard from some in the priesthood is that the Gospel of many preachers in this world, in the ‘modern’ church, is too self-centered, too me focused, too anything but the one true orthodox faith once delivered by the three John’s (Calvin, MacArthur, Piper).
So here we have a preacher who begins his book about what life, according to Scripture, means with a clear statement that we are too self-centered, too me-focused, too anything but God focused and the best ‘admin’ can conclude is that he’s wrong? He hasn’t even published the book yet, and he’s already not listening to the ‘God of the Bible’? Here’s a man who, according to the CP article:
All net proceeds of The Purpose of Christmas have gone to benefit Warren’s PEACE Plan – a global initiative created to mobilize millions of Christians in the fight against the five global “giants” of spiritual emptiness, self-centered leadership, extreme poverty, pandemic disease and illiteracy/education.
And all the ‘admin’ can say is that this is ’sad’, that the author is ‘not listening to the God of the Bible’?
Here’s a man who, according to the CP article says:
“[P]ray … that God’s Spirit will guide me in writing this next book just as He did with Purpose Driven Life so that it can change hundreds, thousands, and even more than of lives all around the world,” he said.
And he’s not listening to the guidance of the God of the Bible?
I have nothing else to say. The levels of hatred, the uncanny inability to think or reason, or come up with a valid criticism, is staggering to say the least.
He hasn’t even published so much as a sample chapter and he’s already a heretic?
Are you kidding me? Surely you, ‘admin’, jest because you surely have no case here. There must be some other motive for you to write what you wrote ‘admin.’
Surely.
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
117 Comments(+Add)
I am sorry, but you are doing the same thing you accuse the ODM’s are doing.
You pull a quote out of the Purpose Driven Life that seems very orthodox, yet you ignore the hundreds of quotes in there that are not orthodox. You look at this one paragraph, and you ignore the pragmatic aspect of the Purpose Driven Church. You pull the quote out and you ignore the fact that he will not even preach the Gospel to the Muslims and Jews he has presented his principles to.
Mahatma Gandi had Christian ideas, and spoke words we could agree with, even had respect for the Christian God, and took actions that would be good for Christians to emulate, but was not a Christian, and, unless he made a deathbed confession of faith in Christ alone, all of His good works won’t save him.
So while these pieces and phrases sound great, Just like Rob Bell and others who espouse following in the way of Jesus, they will have to answer to God for what they did with the Gospel (as will I). Did they proclaim the Good News with their lips when they had the opportunity? Or did they emphasize Purpose? Did they live Holy Spirit driven lives? Or did they live
Purposepragmatism driven lives?Paul quoted the philosophers at Mars Hill… how unorthodox is that! What a pragmatist! He called out he was a Roman citizen (thus I guess denying he was a citizen of the Kingdom according to some!) What a pragmatist!
Paul spoke to Jews and Gentiles in ways they could understand… what a pragmatist!
So according to PB… Paul is a heretic and pragmatist.
Yeah PB… deny that Bible!
iggy
Yeah Iggy, thats what I said.
Be blessed. Shalom. Ruach.
I have yet to see you show any tangible examples.
I for the life of me cannot understand why you attack servants of the Lord as you do.
The standard you often use (as exemplified above) is not a biblical standard.
Jerry,
I wonder if there is a jealousy afoot… people see the opportunities that others are afforded and they covet them… and coveting them they judge them based, not on the Bible, or the historic faith, but based on what they would have said… and since those with the opportunity do not speak in the same manner as those who covet the opportunity – the latter judges the former as a non-follower of God.
[insert "I want to be a clone" reference]
Yes, John, please show us a tangible example of Rick Warren’s heresy. I will gladly engage you in this conversation.
Well it is what you are saying PB… sorry you are too blind to understand what you are saying. So I fixed it to make it clearer… at least to others… as you will still not see it as you are saying it…
I already brought up Paul quoting the Greek philosophers… but if RW does it… it is pragmatism… and unorthodox.
Yes… Paul was a pragmatist… whatever worked he did…
Just putting what you are saying in context.
And it must be a legitimate example, a truly heretical belief. Not something conjured up like the whole “Praying in the name of Isa” pettiness – or some silly matter like that…
Jerry,
I remember laying down a similar challenge at the Rapture-Ready site (before being kicked off for my unbiblical stand on a Palestinian state) regarding Richard Foster.
One guy (I think it was a guy) pulled a quote where Foster encouraged people to imagine themselves looking down on the world from the perspective of God… he said this proved Foster was promoting astral projection – and he/she was dead serious… other chimed in that using your imagination was a New Age way of creating an alternative reality.
I don’t think these persons hated Foster, or coveted his authorial position. I think they just got it in their head somehow that he’s evil – and all relevant and actual meanings were henceforth jettisoned in favor of something nefarious.
This is what I see happening with ODM’s and all too often with Pastorboy as well.
They have both repeatedly attacked – not the actual person – but a caricature which they and others have created.
Hey PB toss a few out for us… I will pull the book off the shelf and look up the quotes…
This should be fun… but I doubt PB will and for all his “research” I doubt he has a copy of PDL in his possession. But I will let him just pull quotes from the Internet ( you know that truly reliable source of credible information) as long as he puts the page number with the quote so we all can look it up.
Up to the challenge PB or are you just all talk and no substance.
Remember you said there are “hundreds of unorthodox quotes”… so back that up buddy… show them… now’s your chance.
iggy
Sorry to misquote you PB>.. you stated:
It amounts to the same thing but you will just cry like a baby that I misquoted you… so just covering that now so we can move on.
New age psychology book? Or Purpose Driven Life?
Where is the biblical support for this? Or is it just the positive thinking principles of Robert Schiller regurgetated by Rick Warren for his ‘purpose’?
Self esteem is a problem, for we ‘esteem ourselves higher than we ought’ Our esteem, our worth, is based on God and found in God, is not to make ourselves feel better, it is to bring Him glory. More psychology mumbo-jumbo.
But where did Paul find his help? When he was brought to the lowest point of despair, with no place to go, He trusted in God alone to save Him, for God’s glory.
What if these are Godly elders who see something in you that you are unable to see? What if they are using God’s Word to help you to conform to the image of His Son?
You can find this in the same 2 Corinthians 1 passage, but it is again to proclaim the mercy that God has given you.
Huh?
More psychology….
By all means, anything but the Bible. Anything but a reliance upon the Holy Spirit for guidance.
Or, you can just follow God’s leading and His will. I mean, Peter was a fisherman and a big mouth that, when converted, was a powerful tool. He laid down his nets, what he was shaped for, and became a bold evangelist. It is not your time, your talents, or your energy- Paul recognized these things all came from God. This is just more myers briggs psycho babble mumbo jumbo.
The best style of worship is to do so in Spirit and in Truth (John 4:24)
And though Robert Schuller is not quoted in the PDL, his fingerprints are all over it. Rick Warren does quote some questionable characters, however, to prove his point….
I have more, but I will let you chew on these for a while.
John,
And? Iggy has already pointed out that the Apostle Paul quoted from pagan philosophers to prove his point. So what is yours?
This is not an example of something unbiblical. It may be an example of something that is not explicitly stated in the Bible. There is a categorical and significant difference.
Can you show how this is not biblical?
And it is not a regurgitated positive thinking model – or have you never come across a person who thinks (contra-the-Bible) that their sin is too great to be forgiven?
Did not Jesus come to remove our guilt? Is that not the essence of good theology? And is this statement by Warren, even if it is not in the Bible, false? Again, what is your point? This is hardly heresy.
Look, we can do this all night or you can come up with a statement where Rick Warren says: I deny historic Christian faith. Because unless you do, you will not win this argument. I promise you.
I’m sick of you people trashing pastors, trashing preachers, trashing those ordained to proclaim the Gospel. I know your hearts because I have dealt with you in real life. I may not be able to defend myself, but you can damn well bet I’m gonna defend others.
You and Warren are saying pretty much the same thing – our worth is based on our imago dei.
I quoted the first 3 paragraphs because usually when a person writes a book, any book, it is the first page or two or paragraph or three that sets the course for the rest of the book. It is these three paragraphs that determined the content, message, and direction of the book. It tells us where he is writing from, who he writing to, and what he is writing about.
That’s elementary hermeneutics John.
#12 would be extremely funny if he wasn’t serious and a pastor. Given that reality, it’s just sad.
Joe, I love your ‘pastor’s’ definition of the Gospel in the Gospel according to…video he put together.
Just goes to show- if you do not hear Jesus’ voice…you are not his.
This sounds like John Piper to me. In fact, I’m surprised Piper hasn’t sued for plagiarism.
Your objection addresses something not raised in the quote. Where in this quote does Warren deny trusting God?
For the record here, I’m not sure I agree with Warren, but that doesn’t mean he’s following a different God.
And? What is your point here? In what way is this heresy?
John,
are you ready to quit yet?
jerry
So let’s ignore all statements that can be twisted with a “What if…” hypothetical.
Actually, this one is kinda prophetic on Warren’s part.
Again, you object to something that is not in the quote. Warren does not deny you claim of mercy. Do you deny that God can use our deepest pain to help others?
I agree… a little context might help.
Well, what does Scripture say about this?
Oh my! Warren sounds like he is quoting the apostle Paul doesn’t he?
Let’s play another game. Below is a quote from someone’s blog. He is a pastor.
What a bunch of psycho babble mumbo jumbo. Sometimes fathers try to “live their dreams through their children?” Where is that in the Bible? And why are fathers having DREAMS anyways? Sounds like New Age crap.
And how is it OUR goal to “win the heart of our children”???? Isn’t GOD the only one that can win our hearts? We do not win the hearts of anyone. This psycho babble places man above God and gives fathers far too much credit in the salvation of children.
Oh, this is from PB’s blog by the way. From a post he wrote about being a godly father for a “Father’s Day” message (a holiday that is also not in the Bible). Yet he was trying to relate Scripture to real life situations and to real people.
Pot, meet kettle.
You, PB, are either so stupid you can’t see this or you are a mocker of the bride of Christ. I’ll let you pick which one.
Hey Neil, this is kind of fun eh?
Using psychological terms is not wrong. So this charge is vacuous. Surely you do not deny the observation that there are different personalities in the Bible that conflict.
Oh, goody! Someone else wants to play! Hey Chad! How’s it going? The sandbox is open.
Easy, maybe – but it’s not fun pointing out to a brother in Christ how shallow his objections are against another brother in Christ. Particularly when the latter will probably just ignore me.
Yes. We should burn all books. Damn those preachers who have the audacity to actually read and interact with the thoughts and works of others. I’m sure, John, based on what you say, you spend little time reading. You are so wise that all you need is your own keen insight into Scripture. No one else can help you. You have the Spirit. The rest of us have our libraries. Where does the Bible say: “Thou shall not read books?” or “Thou shall not reference the works of others?”
Here is a fine example of caricature creation. Warrren did not say anything but the Bible. He simply suggested other sources for other information. Seriously PB,it’s this kind of twisting that is so frustrating.
Well, we are now 34 comments in and we have yet to see any real heresy from RW. We have systematically dismantled John’s critique. And he has yet to counter.
You know, I don’t even like PDL. I mostly think it is beginners stuff. What I can’t stand, though, is someone saying that RW, an ordained pastor of Christ, is not following the God of Scripture. I’ll defend him every turn I get.
Your Petrine example proves Warren’s point. Peter was had a strong personality being an evangelist fit his personality – and you provided a great example.
Here again. Warren says nothing counter to the Scriptures… you must insert an objection and address it.
Have you never come across someone who was in a ministry that they just didn’t fit in because they thought they had to… or because they were trying to copy someone else?
Well, how do you defend his going to the Muslims and not preaching the Gospel? What does he preach? The PEACE plan.
What about going to the Jews…what does he preach? Purpose.
Rick Warren is all about Rick Warren. He preaches a vaccuous Gospel. This is a waste of time. No matter what quotes I show you, you will all say it is not bad teaching.
I never said heresy, BTW.
I said pragmatism, psychology, positive thinking….Not heresy.
John,
Allow me to correct you:
That’s from your first comment. If something isn’t orthodox, it’s heresy. You didn’t need as many words.
At least you are consistent John. Once again you offer a rebuttal that is as true as it is moot. Your statement and Warren’s are both correct and noncontradictory.
So, you are correct. As is Warren. And the only way to see your response as a rebuttal to him is to add to his statement a meaning it does not contain – therefore – caricature creation.
Do you not see how you consistently read into him tings not there?
John,
There’s a lot of stuff RW says that is ‘bad’ teaching. None of it that I have seen is heresy. That’s the difference. Bad teaching is not equivalent to heresy.
jerry
RE 37: NO NO NO…
You cannot move on to more objections until you either rebut or acknowledge the dismantlement of your first set.
Backatcha, Chad.
The merit of a quote is it’s relevance and content – not it’s source. This may be the pettiest objection of all. In fact, sometimes truth form objectionable sources has an even greater punch.
Not much meat here…
John, can you see how your objections are often petty, not heretical, and often based on reading into Warren things to be objected to?
Here is an excellent critique. I am too busy to respond anymore tonight. I will write more tomorrow.
John,
I’m trying hard to be loving and kind about this. But there is a significant difference between objecting to a person’s teaching or theological position and saying:
There is a wide, fantastic difference. If the comments were restricted to teaching/theology that would be one thing. But you all take it straight to the person. That is wrong.
Well said.
(I really need to get back to my homework.)
Agreed.
Chad,
Way to shoot Pastorboy with his own gun. (Cool – a second Steve Taylor references in one thread)
Though I would not call him stupid – just stubborn.
Granted.
But pragmatism, psychology, and even positive thinks are all neutral entities. They are not wrong unless unbiblical.
All you have shown is that Warren uses them – you have yet to show ANYTHING unbiblical.
RE: 45
NO NO NO NO – again…
No more objections until you either rebut or acknowledge the dismantlement of your first set.
PB… the master of bait and switch… he states one thing then makes it mean another… cuz… words mean something and when he is caught in his own words… he… he… ah whatever… I am glad to be a emerging believer with integrity and can live honestly with a pure conscience…. all give through Jesus… by the renewing of my mind in Christ.
Yep psychobabble.. from Paul, and Peter… and of course… Jesus and the Holy SPirit.
PB gave a link above that was bad.
yet… it was interesting to follow to the source.
Dave Hunt is hated amongst the ODM’s . I think he also sensationalizes too much as well as does nto understand Calvinism that he attacks often
So we have PB sending as proof someone the other ODM’s hate… and would discredit as a person… yet we now are to agree with Dave Hunt as PB agrees with him.
This poo gets so thick sometimes… ya need a shovel to get through it.
Chill out, everybody. Rudeness isn’t going to help anything.
As for the original post, I think the whole issue goes back to the “me, me, me,” issue that humans have. We have such a problem of wanting glory instead of wanting God to have glory. Thus results a whole lot of jealousy and hate.
I have to say Purpose Driven Life honestly isn’t my favorite book. But that’s no excuse for how Rick Warren has been treated.
PB-
I’d still like you to explain all your psycho babble that I quoted you saying in post 28. Where do you get the idea from Scripture that fathers,
Where do you get this idea?:
And where on earth (or in Scripture) do you get this man-centered idea?:
Isn’t God supposed to win our hearts? Why are you encouraging the fathers in your church to “win the hearts” of their children?
You sound just like Warren.
# 46
Warren, within the PDL, uses multiple Bible translations (translations is a word I use kindly) to fit his theories- eisogesis. He uses the Message, for example (likely a favorite of Chad’s) that mangles the original meaning in favor of a man-centered idea.
For example, in the midst of his denial of pop-psychology (p. 19), he quotes The Message translation of Matthew 16:25 — Self-help is no help at all. Self-sacrifice is the way, my way, to finding yourself, your true self . The Message has altered the meaning of Jesus’ words into a means by which a person finds himself for his own sake, something that this culture screams for. Compare Matthew 16:25 in the KJV: “For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.” Jesus is speaking of eternal life (Matthew 16:26 makes this clear), not the twisted modern day concept of “finding yourself.”
The thesis of PDL is found on page 25, where Warren says,
The Message, as it often does, has changed the meaning of the text. The ESV reads: 3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.. The thrust of the verse is the problem of pride, in the context of spiritual gifts.
The red flag with me and with all your favorites on this site like Rob Bell, Rick Warren, Doug Pagitt, Tony Jones, Shane Claibourne etc. is the excessive liberties that they take with scripture, twisting it to say things that it does not say, justifying their thesis rather than letting the Word teach them by the power of the Holy Spirit.
#53 May the Lord bless you and keep you, Iggy.
PB-
Observation of parents and their children on the sports fields and in the classroom. Where do you get the idea that all people will one day be in heaven? Where did you get the idea that eternal damnation does not exist? Must have been from the Message paraphrase.
Ephesians 6:4, 4 Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.
And observation.
By win the heart, I certainly mean that our goal as Fathers is to shape the child, guide the child, raise up the child so that they do all things from the heart so when God calls them, they will be ready to respond.
Are you suggesting that we should be cruel, unloving, uncaring ogres that simply allow anything to rule our childrens hearts? That we should abandon the role of Biblical fatherhood?
You sound just like Huxely.
WHOA!! Are you actually suggesting that you learn things about human nature OUTSIDE of Scripture? Are you actually suggesting that you observe people and come to conclusions and then find ways that Scripture might speak to those situations???
PB, are you so dense that you can’t see that this is exactly what Warren is doing? Do you not recognize your hypocrisy?
Warren says this:
And your retort is this:
What if Warren simply said that he has observed as a pastor for decades as well as people on the baseball field that guilt is weighing on many people in a heavy way?
That says nothing about it being “natural” for fathers to demand respect from their children. You sound like you have been reading some parenting books by some psychologist rather than the Bible.
No, no no. That is not what you said. If you are going to castigate Warren and think the worst of every turn of phrase than you have to allow the same gun to be used on you. You said that it is OUR goal to win their hearts. You said nothing about God winning their hearts.
Very unorthodox, PB. Talk about taking liberties with Scripture.
#56. John,
You see, that is a reasoned critique and, to be sure, one that I happen to agree with. In my estimation, Warren’s use of Scripture in general is woefully inadequate. He does do the very thing you say. He picks and chooses his ideas, it seems, based upon how the various translations translate the text.
But again, there is a problem. You think that some translations are heretical. The Message, for example, I’ll say this again that it is not a paraphrase. Peterson worked through the Greek and the Hebrew and translated it into our vernacular–which is no different than what the KJV translators did. And Eugene Peterson is no heretic!
To be sure, there is nothing heretical about Peterson’s translation of Matthew 16:5. He’s saying the same thing as the KJV in a way that we can understand–since sacrifice in our culture is a virtually meaningless word. We have very little cultural understanding of it–at least not in the sense that they had of it.
Your example from Romans is the same. One translation helps us understand it from a positive point of view, the other from a negative point of view. It doesn’t mean one is right and the other wrong although in some cases the translators probably do get it wrong–which is why various translations are necessary and why good preachers consult many translations when preparing sermons.
Either way, Warren’s thesis is still based on the Scripture. His book is still a searching out of Scripture. His idea is still the working out of his theological ideas in public. But you say:
But they don’t do this. They search for answers to questions. The have been saved by grace and the seek to work out their salvation with fear and trembling in public–and I’m willing to bet they suffer much rebuke and correction when they prepare and study, as all preachers of the Gospel do (that is, we preach to ourselves first).
You think because they work it out publicly and come to conclusions you haven’t that they are heretics or lost or blasphemous. Maybe the same can be said of you? Maybe your conclusions aren’t all right? You think yours is the only right way to believe, but where does Scripture say that? Scripture says we should pay close attention to our own doctrines, and work out our own salvation, and mind our own business.
This is the problem with you and your friends: you think you set the standard for belief. But there is Warren in a quote you provide saying that God is the standard by which we measure all things and you criticize him as manipulating Scripture to his own ends. Huh? Just because his conclusions are different than yours doesn’t mean he is a heretic.
I don’t care for PDL. I have said it before. I don’t particularly care for his use of Scripture…but he is still using Scripture. He is still searching it, reading it, immersing his readers in it. And just because I don’t particularly care for it (I think PDL is babysteps for very young Christians or even the unsaved) doesn’t mean God has not used it, inspired it, or condemned Warren for writing it.
It all goes back to Grace John. That is the starting point. Grace.
But you seem to think there is a bogeyman behind every letter, a snake under every rock, a specter lurking inside every dust jacket. It is this sort of paranoia that will eventually drive you nuts–it means you are trusting more in yourself than you are in God’s ability and wisdom to protect you. No one is saying ‘believe all of PDL or be lost for eternity.’ What we are saying is that PDL does not make RW a heretic or those who read it lost.
jerry
PS–i’ll be out for a while and might not get back to this right away. (Stupid Child Development class)
A book thesis must be irreducible… therefore this is not the thesis since it refers back to something else. It is a statement about the thesis.
The Thesis is in Jerry’s OP.
Yet, neither the thesis, nor this statement about the thesis are contrary to the Scriptures.
So far, you have not shown how any of my rebuttals are inaccurate or wrong.
A recap:
Pastorboy listed a bunch of objections to PDL.
One had merit
The rest were guilty of addressing something Warren did not say, and/or creating a caricature of Warren that can be attacked.
[cf. comments 14, 16, 21, 24, 25, 26, 30, 34, 36, and 39]
Pastorboy has moved on to other objections.
Pastorboy,
The relevant point Chad made was your use of observation as a source for truth. This is what Warren did. Yet, when he did it you jumped to the conclusion that he was denying Scripture.
Do you see the double standard?
Also, do you see where you took a statement from Warren that was inclusive and made exclusive so as to attack it?
I heard Rick Warren preach this Easter while I was deployed. I thought he was fantastic in his recap of human history with God, and the Gospel, and the Resurrection. It was great to hear while I was far away from home. And he did it all in different ways than I was used to hearing. It was like hearing the story for the first time (and please, no “that’s because it wasn’t the same story” crap, that’s just a filthy lie so don’t say it, save yourself the sinning)
A long time ago I hated Rick Warren and believed him to be a heretic purely on the words of others and condemnation of busy-bodies, something I believe some are guilty of on the nets these days. God changed my mind, along with others who had the guts to put cracks in my shield of self-righteousness and stubbornness. God showed me that just because something sounds different doesn’t mean it’s wrong, and even IF someone is wrong, it doesn’t make them dangerous or a heretic. We’re all wrong, a lot. Take that to the bank.
Rick Warren is not unorthodox, he just has a different purpose than those who came before him. We may not agree with all of his techniques but can we really pull heresy out of his book? His teaching? His Gospel presentation? Can we really wonder what he did or did not say before, during, and after his meeting with Muslims? There’s plenty the Apostles did not say during the stories of the Bible, should we assume they never said the ‘things’ we would expect them to, at an earlier or later time?
No, we shouldn’t.
Peace
Joe C
What was the context? Was he invited to preach the Gospel, but did not? Was he invited to speak about his PEACE plan and did?
I spent last week teach ESL to Muslims. That is what I was invited to do. I did not preach the Gospel to them. Therefore, I must follow a different God, and preach a Neil-centered Gospel?
Muslims are suspicious of Christians by nature, and for good reason. To use a bully pulpit to proclaim biblical truth, no matter how true, can and does cause more harm than good.
Joe C.,
To be fair PB has not used the term heresy or heretic – in this thread. That said, plenty of ODM’s do and it has nearly become void of meaning because of their improper use.
That said, the OP shows an ODM saying Warren follows a different God – and this is reprehensible. And so far PB has not done anything to distance himself from such un-Christ-like rubbish.
It is ODM SOP to pour their own meanings into what people say (and do not say) to foster their argument.
Neil,
You know me, I don’t usually target specific people in my comments and I didn’t in this case either. I usually leave it up to peoples’ own consciences because I believe deep down somewhere beneath all our neuroses we know who we are.
There are plenty who think Warren is a heretic and unorthodox (which I do believe is the term John used), and I find that to be unfounded. This forum has only compounded this belief.
Like you said, it’s SOP for some to pour meaning in to what others (they apparently do not like) say and do (or don’t say and don’t do) to suit their own means. And that’s what I’m trying to address really. The Apostles, when given the opportunity (as far as we can unfairly judge) did not say the things most would want or expect them to say, and DID say things that would seem ridiculous and maybe unorthodox to us now? Can we really judge them?
Honestly, when it comes to the Bible, we don’t know the whole story, but we do know what God needs us to know.
When it comes to people and pastors we’ve never met (like Rick Warren) we know even LESS of the story, and we refuse to know what God wants us to know about them. Like for instance, treating them with a fair mind, compassion, understanding, respect, and the benefit of the doubt due to our lack of knowledge.
Heh
Joe
PDL is a decent book. It’s not great, not too deep, not very theologically rigorous and it is not heresy. It’s a simple book addressed to a people who are consumed by the consuming philosophy of life and desires to refocus people’s attention on God and God’s purposes rather than our own. Why find fault with that?
PDL impacted my life in a tremendous way. After I got out of the Navy in 2001 I was determined to work for myself and finally make some real money. I was convinced that this would make me happy and bring meaning to my life. Within 2 years I was making 6 figures selling life insurance and mutual funds. I had great toys. I was single, no responsibilities and living what I considered to be the high life.
My dad invited me to be part of a men’s group at his church and they were going through PDL. They met early on Friday mornings (6AM) and had breakfast and coffee together as they challenged each other through each chapter. I went. I love coffee. Plus I thought it’d be good for my body if I didn’t go out and get drunk at least one night a week.
We didn’t even make it to chapter 3 (the 3rd week) when I became increasingly uneasy and convicted about my life. I knew deep down that I had been running for years from the call I received when I was 13 to be a pastor. I had done everything I could to run from the call, even spending 8 years in the Navy. But now, as I sat with this group of 8 men, reading PDL together and discussing how it might impact our lives, I knew God was getting my attention…again.
By week 7 I showed up to my group to announce I had quit my high paying job, enrolled in a Christian university as a Bible and THeology major and would be moving the next week to TN to begin a new life – one focused on God rather than myself.
6 years later I don’t regret a thing. And you know what? I don’t think I ever finished reading PDL. It served a purpose in my life. God used it. I have moved on. Would I recommend the book to others? Absolutely! And I would pray God use it the same way God used it in my life.
PDL may be many things but it is not heresy. And Warren is not the anti-Christ. He’s a pastor who loves Jesus and wants to see the world transformed by the love of God for God’s Kingdom. He wants to make disciples in the name of Jesus. I applaud him in his efforts to do this, even as I am disgusted by the efforts of others to undermine him and other Christian men and women who desire nothing more than to seek justice, love mercy and walk humbly with God.
Or as a prof of mine said (paraphrasing); God is not wholly known, but what is known is wholly true.
PB, still waiting for you to address 58.
I would agree with the first part of the phrase but the second part needs more nuance or clarification.
To say “what is known is wholly true” assumes that we know purely and without fault. Among all of us just on this blog we disagree on what is “known” and how it is to be applied. So I would not say that what is known is wholly true.
and 14, 16, 21, 24, 25, 26, 30, 34, 36, 39, 60, 62, and 64.
#67
So where in all of that did you repent and trust Christ alone for your salvation?
I mean because if you follow the PDL’s plan for salvation, their half Gospel, you likely won’t be saved. For that you need to hear the Gospel. To hear the Gospel, God needs to give you ears to hear.
Just curious.
And BTW, I trust your book reviews like I would trust my eight year old to do brain surgery. What you have gotten out of the Bible and what the Bible clearly teaches are two very different things. I am not trying to be mean, just honest.
Oh, that didn’t happen until I saw Jesus in you, pastor.
Now, perhaps you’d like to address comments
and 14, 16, 21, 24, 25, 26, 30, 34, 36, 39, 58, 60, 62, and 64.
Another vacuous claim with no references, examples, or evidence.
Pastorboy, I believe your heart needs softening.
Pastorboy, I am disappointed that you have chosen to engage in a tit-for-tat with Chad, but not engage me substantively.
And to Chad & Pastorboy, at this point I think you are just shouting past each other.
I like what your professor said Neil, but I lean more towards agreeing with Chad on “what is known is wholly true”. It’s hard to say what I “know” is wholly true, as in perfect, right? I know a lot of things but I might have some stuff messed up in the ‘know’. Either way, what I’m trying to get at is that well, even though we don’t know the ‘whole story’ per se when it comes to certain Bible accounts, doesn’t mean God hasn’t told us the important stuff He wants to get across to us.
When it comes to individuals and their ’stories’ in this world however, we know even less about what goes on in specific situations, yet we feel comfortable judging them to death; but not the Apostles and other Bible characters. How nutty.
What I’m really saying is: Why bother spending time railing on Rick Warren when you pretty much don’t know squat about the guy or what he has done in any given situation anyways? It just makes us look petty and well…like a sad mocking picture of God. IE “I know everything about everyone and their hearts desires”, but infinitely less than the Real God and disgusting to boot. That’s really how it comes across.
Joe
Deaf people need not bother, PB? Was deafness a way to send people to hell, or do you want to try that again?
Chad & Joe C.,
While I understand you comments and do not disagree – the point of the comment was that God has revealed to us what we need to know.
Perhaps I paraphrased it poorly.
Gotcha Neil, I’m with you.
Perhaps the words of Jesus will help, Sandy.
John 5:46-47 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”
John 8:37 37 I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you.
John 8:45 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.
John 8:47 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”
PB-
This rabbit trail you are trying to create is not going to work.
Please address comments 14, 16, 21, 24, 25, 26, 30, 34, 36, 39, 58, 60, 62, and 64.
You can belittle my testimony and the way God grabbed my attention after you address the above.
I addressed them all in my opening statement.
Neil, and you, can feel free to deconstruct what I believe to be true based on the author’s (Rick Warren’s)own words and subsequent actions.
I do not need to respond to any response, my response is my original piece. I do not have this overwhelming need (like you) to be right, to prove my point. I let God be God, and as long as I am right with Him, it is all good.
lol
Thanks for the laugh, PB.
I still find it amazing (even heretical) that you think fathers are supposed to “win the hearts of their children.” So much for you letting “God be God.”
It is disingenuous at best of you, PB, to ignore all the evidence countering your “original statement.” As if that is all there is to say on the subject.
Everyone here has shown you how your argument is not only dishonest but unfair to another pastor. I have even shown you (in post 58) how YOU employ the same things Warren employs and yet you still continue to believe your lies.
As far as I’m concerned, you are a joke.
Pastorboy,
I am sorry that your have chosen to disregard my responses to your allegations against Warren. it troubles me that you have, instead, gotten personal and questioned my motives.
Do you not see where you are creating a caricature of Warren?
Take just one of your responses to Warren.
He wrote:
Your responded:
Do you not see the disconect between what he said and what you responded?
Do you not see how you took a perfectly good and proper comment, and filled it with some nefarious meaning, then addressed that meaning?
Your attacks on Warren are disingenuous since they are based on things he did not say.
It’s not fair.
It’s not brotherly.
John,
As a brother in Christ I am constrained to ask you why you have chosen to treat me thus? Maybe I am whining again, but I do not understand the need to questions my motives.
If I have offended you with some personal address, please point that out and I will apologize.
I have tried to address you with respect, and address only the flaws in your arguments against Warren.
I have no question of your “rightness” with God in a positional and salvific sense.
I do however, question whether or not God would see it right to question the motives of a brother in Christ as well as what you have erroneously said regarding your brother Rick Warren.
Neil
PB,
Re: #81, I assume you’re speaking to me, though Sandy is a handle a friend of mine uses elsewhere and I typically don’t respond to it.
With respect, I’ll take the words of Jesus over someone’s narrow, selective use, interpretation and application of them. It’s like you know the words, but you don’t know the song. So you attack those who can put the words to song as perverting the words.
Have you considered the idea that when one thinks, talks or reads to oneself, there is an internal dialog going on where a person “hears” perfectly what transpires.
As for your continued silence toward Neil, you impoverish yourself by passing up the opportunity to sharpen his and your iron.
How can someone be under the delusion that they are right with God when they constantly mock God’s servants and falsely accuse and judge them? Even worse, they refuse to listen to any one but themselves (or the same like-minded people they huddle together with), being so convinced that they are right and anyone who disagrees can just be ignored?
What kind of pastor would say to their congregation X, Y and Z only to have one of them question his or her conclusions, offering A, B and C only to have the pastor tell them, “I don’t care about that. All that matters is me and that I am right with God” (by the way, anyone else catch how self-centered and individualistic this sounds?)
The point of PDL is that it’s not about us after all. It’s about God and His plan for us and creation since the beginning of time and the part we play in that. Ironically, it seems some have focused entirely on themselves and how if they’re right with God then ‘whatever’ to other things.
Maybe if some would take PDL seriously instead of damning it off the bat…but no…no…
Forest of Trees: Hey…look at all of us, not just at the tree in front of you!
Joe
Maybe a blog format, with the option to respond in comments, isn’t the best way to spread the gospel.
That’s exactly right, Joe.
The more I read this:
the sicker I become. Is it really ALL good, PB? Where is this in Scripture? Where do you find that it is ALL good if just your personal soul is squared away with God? Do you not think God might not have much bigger plans for God’s creation? Is it possible that God’s plan is bigger than YOU?
PB, a pastor, on faith…
Millions of children are orphans, but I am right with God – it’s ALL good.
Hundreds of thousands will die today due to lack of clean water and food, but I am right with God – it’s ALL good.
Millions have no shelter tonight, but my soul is right with God – it’s ALL good.
Creation is groaning for the redemption of the God’s people, but my soul is right with God – it’s ALL good.
Millions are living and dying never knowing that hope that found in Jesus Christ and God’s plan for creation, but MY soul is right with God – it’s ALL good.
#91
With all due respect, this particular conversation isn’t necessarily about ’spreading the gospel.’ It is, however, about defending a preacher who is spreading the Gospel from viscious attacks of hateful, spiteful, arrogant people who will not engage in conversation or open up their own blogs for rebuke, dialogue, correction, and challenge.
Glad I could clear that up for you.
jerry
And stop calling me “Shirley”.
Here is the deal:
I have a story about PDC and PDL
When I was training (yes training) to become an Elder, the book study that we had to go through was PDC. I had a mentor, and week by week we discussed the aspects, because this was the direction that we were going as a church. As I read through it, as an Insurance Agency owner, I realized that many of the principles were very similar to the marketing principles that I was learning as a sales agent. This bothered me a little bit, but I went with it. It seemed a little disengenuous, but I thought ‘well maybe they will come in and they will hear the Gospel’. In my observations of five years as an elder/leader, it was ineffective in doing either, for when we would have events that attracted people, and we would share the Gospel, people didn’t come back. When they did, it was because they were already Christians and they either moved into the area, or had become dissatisfied with their church and just transferred to ours.
When PDL came out, I was an associate Pastor in Florida. We decided that we would do the 40 days of Purpose and we would study PDL in our small groups. Unfortunately, we also brought the Bible along. By week 5, the discrepencies between the Bible and PDL became so great that most of us decided to disband the study of PDL, because we saw that it was not scriptural, that it was pragmatism, self help, and psychology all rolled into a manual that said that it was not about me, but really was all about me and how we could have a better and more purposeful life on this earth.
I discovered in all this that it is simple.
1. Live the great Commandment: Love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself.
2. Obey the Great Commission: All Authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me, therefore go, make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and teaching them all things I have commanded you.
All to the glory of God.
Given the way I have witnessed your version of “sharing the Gospel” on this blog and elsewhere, this does not surprise me.
In any event, even if you shared the Gospel rightly and they did not come back why would you blame the thing that attracted them in the first place? An example: this week we have VBS. Lots of kids and their parents will be there, especially for the closing ceremony. I will share the gospel, knowing that some of the people there are not Christians. Some of them might return return, many will not. It was VBS and their kids event that drew them to church. Should I blame VBS and children events for their turning away? Of course not.
It’s the Holy Spirit who draws and convicts, PB. You should be giving God thanks that so many people showed up and pray that a seed was planted and that it is watered elsewhere.
And PB, as my comment 58 shows, anyone can easily dismantle any thing they read if they are looking to do so.
It took me 2 minutes to just peruse your blog to find stuff that smacked of psychology or simple observation of the human condition – stuff that was not explicitly Scriptural. As a pastor, you take certain liberties as you explicate the truth of Scripture for others to understand. Why not extend the same allowance to Warren?
Or, do you wish to justify from Scripture how it is that fathers are supposed to “win the hearts” of their children?
Pastorboy,
RE 95; more acusations and vague charges without substance, reference or specifics – this time presented anecdotally.
I do not doubt you found things you thought were unbiblical.
Problem is, using your objections in comment 12 as an example, it is obvious you are adding meaning to Warren that are not in the text or context.
As I have repeatedly pointed out.
And you have chosen to ignore… in favor or insulting my motives.
I will try again.
Pastorboy, here is one of your objections – a quip by Warren and a response by you.
Now, whether we agree with Warren is moot.
But do you not see how your response is irrelevant to Warren’s comment?
Do you not see your response about Paul finding help and trusting in God alone – addresses something Warren never said?
Did Warren say anything about not trusting God?
Did Warren say anything about trusting others other than God?
Did Warren say anything about finding help apart from God?
NO!
He simply encourages people to share their burdens with others – a thoroughly biblical pattern.
Yet you have responded as if he said all these things.
As others have said, I’m not a big fan of PDL. But that said, I am a fan of fairness. If we are going to critique a brother, if we are going to deny his brotherhood, it better well be done by critiquing what he actually said.
#99
Neil, this is not personal at you (or anybody else). I have not called names, so please understand this is just a debate.
The depression is a guess on Warren’s part, and he uses a paraphrase instead of a direct translation that would not support his theory. But that is besides the point.
Paul got his comfort from God, and was explaining that he did get his help from God, and God allowed him to experience this so that he could comfort others. It was not his honesty that comforted others, it was God’s comfort that was passed through him to others, as he explained in the earlier verses.
It is this casual interpretation/eisogesis that bothers me more than anything.
But that is not the point.
The point is not that we can do gymnastics and make just about anything make sense to us an place a great construction on everything because we like somebody. The question is for me does his ministry consistently honor and glorify the God of the Bible. And I have to say no. When Rick Warren has been right, I have said so. When he has been wrong, I have said so. I am not the final arbiter of his salvation, God is. But the fact is that he has been given a place to speak into many peoples lives, and more often than not, it is Purpose, and SHAPE, and the PEACE plan, not the Gospel of repentance and faith in Christ alone.
example: the false teaching that when people act in their SHAPE that it causes God to smile. That is, unbelievers and believers all… Psalm 7:11 and Ephesians 2:3 would seem to dispell that.
#99
Apparently you still do not see how you must insert additional meanings into Warren to attack his writings.
You say: It was not his honesty that comforted others, it was God’s comfort that was passed through him to others, as he explained in the earlier verses.
And I agree.
Problem is, Warren DOES NOT SAY that his honestly comforted others. So to deny this – you must first invent it.
#99
Here is what is really ironic. After denying something as if Warren said it (which he never did, and you cannot show otherwise) you say:
…God allowed him to experience this so that he could comfort others.
Which is Warren’s point exactly! Warren simply takes it a step further and makes the obvious statement that if Paul had hid the problem God could not have used it to comfort others.
There has to be a way of making this clearer so you can see and admit your fallacy.
You both agree (Warren and PB) that God uses the suffering of Paul for the comfort of others.
Warren adds the logical comment that if Paul had hid it, God could not have used it.
This you react to as if Warren is denying God’s comfort.
Now can you see it?
So the thesis: People act in their SHAPE that it causes God to smile. That is, unbelievers and believers all…
is proven false by
God is a righteous judge,
a God who expresses his wrath every day.
Now who’s eisegeting?
Niel,
It is rather humorous and ironic PB inserts more meaning into RW’s interpretation… and critics RW for putting more meaning into Paul’s words….
It is as if PB can see the wrong in other’s but miss his own wrong when he does it… yeah.. it is that log and splinter thing… and the log keeps him from seeing his own failings in how he deals with others.
Now I am sure he will toss the log around a bit after he reads this… but really who cares what PB has to say? He has no credibility… just thought it was funny what he can’t see…
iggy
Chad,
89 & 92: As I read it, I think PB’s “it’s all good” comment is more about being able to not care so much about what others are thinking or saying about him as long as things are okay between him and God.
I think that’s a healthy mindset to have in that context, being more concerned about what God thinks about oneself than others.
Where I think it becomes a problem is when a person or group utters or publishes and refuses to answer or be held accountable for what’s put forth.
I care what these people have to say insofar as what harm they may be doing to the body of believers or how they may impede the spread of the gospel.
I take it personally when someone questions my motives – when my points are dismissed, not based on their merit but because I have an “overwhelming need to be right, to prove my point.”
Furthermore, it is only a debate when there are actual responses. So far all you have done is repeat the same allegations.
There is no such thing as a ‘direct translation.’ That is a myth. All language, except the original autographs, is paraphrase.
Case in point. More allegations with no evidence, example, or reference. Does he really preach on these things more often than not? Have you done the statistical analysis?
Besides who are you to judge what subject he speaks on? How do you know God has not called him to preach on these very topics?
Why not attack James Dobson for speaking about family values and politics instead of the Gospel of repentance and faith in Christ alone.
Why not attack Ravi Zacharias for debating atheists and using apologetics instead of preaching the Gospel of repentance and faith in Christ alone.
Why not attack Compassion International because they promote child advocacy that releases children from spiritual, economic, social and physical poverty instead of preaching the Gospel of repentance and faith in Christ alone.
Since when is preaching the Gospel of repentance and faith in Christ alone the required topic of all ministries and pastors?
Jerry,
You are correct… so is Pastorboy when he says Warren is “guessing.” Except, just becuase you do not agree with the guess – there’s no reason to get all judgmental about it.
All sorts of people have interpretations (on minor issues like this) that are different from mine – and I do not consign them to following a different God because of it.
Neil,
They do attack Ravi, et al. That’s the point isn’t it? They don’t like anyone and no one measures up to the standard they themselves had set and advocated.
jerry
Which brings us back to the point of the OP.
Look, we can do a lot of exegetical work, translation work, and this and that. But the bottom line is that sometimes we have to guess. There are footnotes in all Bibles where the translators say things like, “The exact meaning is uncertain.” Well, duh.
To say that RW is following another god, as the asinine ‘admin’ did at SOL is beyond contempt. It’s downright mean and uncalled for.
I demand they retract that statement and apologize to Rick Warren. And they should apologize to all those who have benefited from RW’s work–like Chad.
jerry
Neil,
One of these statements is wrong. This, Kyle from WI, is a logical fallacy.
jerry
RE 111;
Jerry,
Yeah, I thought of this as I wrote it… they attack anyone who does not do things the way they think they should be done.
PB in this thread is a good case in point.
Guys guys guys,
Every single thing PB has brought up in this thread has already been answered a million times…..seriously, probably a million times.
It is a waste of time and frustrating to fall into the trap of thinking that PB (and people like him) actually want answers (or want the truth).
PB and his ilk create the “truth” as they go along in order to serve whatever agenda (or psychological need) they might have.
Actual “truth” (objectively speaking) is not something they desire — not really. Hmmmm, how emergent of them….
RA
Two of PB’s comments go begging for comment:
In post #56 he takes Warren to task for using multiple translations that fit his point. Hysterically, PB then goes on to quote both the NKJV and the ESV tp prove his points.
Bwahahahahaha
then from post #95:
Warren has said time after time after time that all of the “purposes” can be found in these two verses!!!
1. Worship – “Love the Lord”
2. Fellowship – “Love your neighbor” (as well as the context of the “Great Commission”)
3. Discipleship – “make disciples” and “teaching them”.
4. Ministry – “teaching” and “loving” & “baptizing”
5. Evangelism – “Go”
RA
I know what ya mean… Pastorboy posts all those objections to Warren as if he intends to discuss… but when you dismantle them he refuses to respond – he simply moves on to others.
And I fall for it all to often.
In this case I was not trying to prove him wrong as much as show him how we was addressing things Warren never said… showing how he adds things to Warren so he can attack them.
It appears once your have decided no good thing can come from Nazareth – you will find it whether it is there or not.