As one unpacks this “gift” from ??N to some group known at the outlaw preachers one must wonder if the writer and the one quoted are saying that Jesus was a false teacher. Here’s the “gift” from John MacArthur:
False doctrine cries the loudest about unity. Listen carefully when you hear the cry for unity, because it may be the cover of false doctrine encroaching. If ever we should follow 1 Thessalonians 5, and examine everything carefully, it’s when somebody is crying unity, love, and acceptance. (Online source)
Here’s a prayer from Jesus as taken from the 17th chapter of John:
21I want all of them to be one with each other, just as I am one with you and you are one with me. I also want them to be one with us. Then the people of this world will believe that you sent me.
Please note that I am not saying I agree Theologically with this group of Outlaw preachers, but I do find it interesting that those who scream the loudest about Sola Scriptura often fail to use the whole of Scripture.
(Hi Ken)
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Joe,
I have noticed this shift lately amongst fundamentalists where anything smelling of unity, love and acceptance (should I say, grace?) is suspect.
They seem to have gotten turned onto the idea that the way the world will truly know God has sent his son into the world is if we constantly try to divide the church up.
Not to be an “amen choir”…but…amen Chad.
I’d type more but my hand is in a cast. (Broke my wrist…figures…)
I also find it funny that it seems that the number of people on the “really saved” list keeps getting smaller and and smaller. It’s like some of these people expect about a few hundred people to make it into heaven.
I grew up in a “really saved” congregation. Looking back, it grieves me that so much time and attention was spent on pointing out those who were not really saved and why they weren’t.
There was no rejoicing in the fact that the bride of Christ is beautiful and diverse.
There was a lot of trying to separate wheat and tares and sheep and goats, forgetting that it was not our job to do that.
Maybe that’s why I get sensitive when I see the bride of Christ attacking herself, trying to chop off her arm or foot because she is sure that such a limb could never be part of her body.
Lord help us!
I’m joining Jesus in His prayer for unity.
But Phil, you’ll notice that surely the authors of ‘the list’ are ALWAYS on it.
How convenient.
Plank—>Eye.
The irony in it all is the same people give lip service to an all-powerful, sovereign God who is, they will claim, love.
What is ironic is how small their God really is. It is a god whose handle on history and the future will be lost if they do not point out all the faults they perceive in others. It is as if the Church, the body of Christ, will crumble without their clanging alarms (gongs) going off.
Is there a place for a word of judgment and rebuke? Yes, there is. But all throughout Scripture we find that such words come from within lived community – in other words, the people knew personally the lives of the ones being rebuked – they shared meals with them, prayed with them, worshipped with them. Furthermore, the words of rebuke are for the purpose of bringing about repentance.
And lets not forget the countless teachings about unity and humility throughout Scripture. It is as if these very people who scream “sola scriptura!” have cut those sections out of their Bible. There is only one righteous Judge and it is none of us. Their words of condemnation lack any resemblance of a person who knows what humility means.
I saw the term “outlaw preachers” at C?N, but could not tell exactly who they were referring to, or what made them outlaws.
Some of the names I am unfamiliar with, and if the quotes are accurate (I know, “if”) I would have to agree (e.g. the promotion of accepting an active homosexual lifestyle).
So. my initial questions would be: why are we quoting a 15 year old document and whose advocating a unity that requires compromise?
As well, so much of this is hisstoricaly redundant. The whole reason evangelicals abandoned social causes in the early twentieth century (besides a poor applied eschatology) was not wanting to be seen as guilty by association.
So much of what I see today is the same thing… throwing out the baby and the bathwater.
There are two things that are interesting to me:
1. I believe that I can disagree with the outlaw preachers and still be agreeable. I can disagree and still show them love. Something that is lacking often. For just one example listen to the Fighting for the Faith program that talks about Rob’s video. A friend of mine listened to it and asked “What’s up with all the name calling?” See, it’s not just enough to say I disagree and I think the person is dead wrong, you have to get in a few zingers too. Calling someone Rob Baal or a liberal hippy makes the point better. Of course, it doesn’t look like Christ at all.
2. People who get all fired up about social justice issues and the spout the whole “We’re not here to fix the world” and claim Jonathan Edwards have never read his stuff.
So, how would we sum up (in a kind way) what an Outlaw Preacher is according to an ADM.
I would suggest the following ways to agreeable disagree. Nothing about name calling here.
When _______ said “_________” it strayed from my view of Christianity and therefore we can conclude ___________.
I believe the outlaw preacher name is self given by Jay Baker and his friends.
No, John MacArthur is not saying Jesus was a false teacher.
The question is: Did Jesus want His disciples to be united with those teaching false doctrines?
And there it is…
#11: I would add one after 8. Avoid exaggeration:
Avoid sarcasm (in Greek it literally means to tear flesh)
#13
Are you sure?
We should all notice that Jesus didn’t qualify His statement about unity with “except for Christians teaching bad concepts/ideas/doctrine”. We should also notice that at some point since we don’t know in full, we all teach incorrect things, for a very long time, sometimes. Some things are irreconcilable, most things are not.
How many who fight vehemently against those who ‘teach false doctrine’ and basically call for ‘excommunication’ and schism, also teach false doctrine as well?
Answer: All of them.
All of us teach wrong things.
We devour one another. Who wants to be a part of that?
The reason the world sees Christians as totally irrelevant, schizophrenic, and disjointed is because we are so schismatic, broken up, and filled with strife and disunity.
Because of the quoted attitude. (no offense.)
Let’s stop qualifying Jesus words with our own vain imaginations and just take it for what it is. Ya not everyone is going to get along, agree, whatnot, but surely we can try harder than we have?
What are there, maybe 50,000 Christian denominations? Some even fight to the death.
Peace,
Joe C
Paul cursed anyone who brought another gospel to the Galatians. It didn’t matter if it was an angel or one of his own. Unless I’m reading Galatians wrong…or this OP wrong.
“Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.”
(I Corin. 15.1-11 NIV)
Well, the key to understanding the book of Galations is understanding the conflicts going on between one group of Jewish Christians who were trying to make converts essentially go through all the ritualistic hoops to convert to Judaism and another group, for which Paul is advocating for, saying that wasn’t necessary. Paul is essentially saying that his argument against the ritualistic conversion rests in the fact that Jesus truly was the Messiah. Those who were arguing the other way were in essence denying this fact.
So it seems to me we should be careful throwing around accusations about “another Gospel” today.
Troy,
Could another gospel be defined as one that denies the fundamentals of Christ’s deity, His life, His death, His resurrection and His pending return?
What do you have in mind when you say “another gospel”?
Shalom
Nathanael,
Were the Christian Jews denying Christ’s deity or were they just adding a little to what Paul originally delivered; circumcision, honoring feast days,…etc.? When we add to the gospel, we’re delivering a different gospel.
I agree that we all mis-speak at times. I’ve delivered sermons when I was younger that I’m embarassed about.
Phil,
Are you saying that delivering “another gospel” doesn’t happen today?
Bingo!
Troy,
This article from 2007 might help us better understand the “adding to the gospel”.
Maybe we’re saying the same thing?
BTW, I agree that disagreements should be handled in an adult manner. Without name-calling…unless it’s really necessary.
“Denying the deity of Christ” is probably not something that was on Paul’s mind, actually. To Paul, Christ was first and foremost the Jewish Messiah, the one foretold by the prophets to bring Israel’s story to a covenant. Yes, Christ’s deity was something Paul believed in, but the way Paul saw it, the Jews who were still living under the ceremonial provisions of the Torah were missing the point of who Jesus was.
Galations is all about who is in God’s covenant family, and how does one get in. Before Christ, one became a Jew through circumcision and other rituals. But now because Christ was faithful to God even to death, we are able to enter the family of God through the faithfulness of Christ.
Oh, I’m sure it does, but I would probably disagree with you on the details on who is doing it.
Phil,
Cool…I can dig that. We could probabaly agree on the majors.
Nathanael,
Thanks for the link. Great article.
Chris and Joe C,
Would you chastise John for his lack of unity and divisiveness?
2 John 1
9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;
11for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.
2 John is so short, I might as well copy and paste the whole book.
First, notice that John begins by reminding his reader(s) to love one another again.
Secondly, the people John is talking about are teachers who “do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh”. In other words they are either Gnostics or people who are teaching a form of Docetism. Of the pastors who regularly get trashed on the ADM sites, I can pretty confidently say that none of them fall into those camps. I could pretty confidently say that a lot of people disagree with John MacArthur and have completely orthodox views on Christ’s nature.
Disagreement on things like election, predestination, the nature of the atonement are not excuses to “not welcome” someone.
… and he says in reply from within, ‘Do not bother me; the door has already been locked and my children and I are already in bed. I cannot get up to give you anything.’
I tell you, if he does not get up to give him the loaves because of their friendship, he will get up to give him whatever he needs because of his persistence. “And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. – Luke 11:7-9
Just when you think you got the guy all figured out, eh?
Here is a perfect link to what I’m trying to get at in this post. Evidently, Ken Silva is angry because someone used Scripture. Now, it may be directed at him, it may not be. The tweet doesn’t say that it is but given the context I think some will believe it is and others will believe that it is not. Regardless, it is the BIBLE for crying out loud and Ken who is always coming up with witty titles and funny names for those he disdains gets all in a lather when someone posts a SCRIPTURE VERSE!!!
Sola Scriptura indeed.
For someone who’s entire life work is built on criticizing, attacking, defaming and libeling others, Ken sure does get worked up every time he’s criticized. I mean his entire blog (I refuse to call it a ministry) is about attacking other people. Some guy puts up a twitter update that has a Bible verse and Ken has to write a 700 word essay talking about how hard his position is.
Well, it’s interesting when you’re flinging mud at other people you’re bound to get mud on you. And don’t even bother bringing up the whole “Well, you’re doing it to poor Ken” thing. If he changes his content tomorrow to being about what he believes I’ll stop. I want to know does Ken think that a person must be baptized to be saved? If not, does he believe that people who do believe that are adding to the Gospel? I’m not holding my breath, I’ll ever hear an answer.
(Hi Ken)
I love how Ken starts by saying he’s not bothered by being called a fool and then proceeds to write an entire post about why this is a problem for him.
I especially love this nugget of truth:
Perhaps this is the best argument against the nonsense of sola scriptura I’ve ever heard. And it comes from one of its proponents
And Ken found another way to insert Rob Bell into an article. Albeit it doesn’t make sense but Rob Bell made it in.