In the wake of John Piper’s announcement that a certain natural disaster that hit a certain part of a certain city on a certain day at a certain time was the direct providence of a certain Deity, many have taken up the pen or key board to say one thing or another about Piper’s seeming omniscience into the mysteries of Trinitarian oeuvre.

David Sessions quoted Andy Crouch:

“All efforts to pin down the details of where and when we can say that God is working in history are fraught with the danger of self-deception, if not outright blasphemy. The commandment not to take the Lord’s name in vain seems especially to apply to human attempts to recruit God for one cultural movement or another. The warning that “history is written by the winners” should caution us that any attempt to discern God’s activity in particular historical events runs the risk of self-justification, claiming after the fact that God was on our side all along.”

HT/RT: imonk

Rather than post an entirely new thread on this subject, I’d like to direct your attention to, what one friend described as, an ‘extra-awesome’ take on the Piper post. I concur. It is super-awesome. Click this link and find out more: Did God Send a Tornado to Warn the ELCA?

I am especially fond of this awesomeness:

3. One has to wonder why God would single out the ELCA’s discussion of homosexuality as worthy of a tornado hit while by-passing so many other serious issues. To give one example, there are over 400 distinct passages encompassing over 3,000 verses in the Bible that address issues related to poverty. Compare this with homosexuality, a topic that is explicitly mentioned a total of two times in the Old Testament and three times in the New. On top of this, the most frequently mentioned reason God judged cities and nations in the Old Testament was because they failed to care for the needy. And, finally, if there’s any sin American churches fail to seriously confront, it’s this one.

In light of this, wouldn’t you assume that if God was going to send warnings and/or inflict punishment with tornados he’d strike some of the many American churches and denominations that condone, if not Christianize, greed and apathy toward the poor? Yet John would have us believe that God had his tornado skip past these churches (and a million other punishment-worthy locations, like child sex-slave houses) in order to damage the steeple of a church because the people inside were wrestling with issues related to homosexuality. If John is right, God’s priorities must have radically changed since biblical times.

This goes well with my post the other day concerning the Gospel and the Poor.

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90 Comments(+Add)

1   John Hughes    
August 21st, 2009 at 8:00 am

I have struggled with getting a Biblical grip on this concept for years, still without a firm conviction. There are weather systems set in place by God from the beginning of creation and in this regard I am like a Deist, God wound up the clock and it’s a self-contained system, it’s going to produce hurricanes, tornadoes, draughts, floods, etc. on its own. On the other hand God, of course, can “play” that system like a piano. A high pressure tweak here, a low pressure adjustment there, etc. (or just a divine fiat for that matter) and the weather does what He wants and instantaneously if He wants outside of the natural order.

Like we know that tornado alley is going to get scores of tornadoes a year. God does not **have to** overtly decree them. The “system” automatically produces them each year. But, being sovereign God can, of course, call one up at any time. But does God **always** direct it’s path or does He usually let it run its natural course? And that’s my conundrum.

If I was that church I, personally would be asking some questions. Why did the storm target mainly just us? But I think it presumptuous to definitively say it was a specific judgment from God.

2   KyleinWI    
August 21st, 2009 at 9:31 am

I must say you missed the point of Piper’s article. Re-read what Piper said. He made the gernal point that anytime bad things happen it always a reminder to us that we are sinful and desrve that also. Unless you repent you likewise will perish.

3   KyleinWI    
August 21st, 2009 at 9:32 am

John a desit god is not the God of the bible. It is a sub-biblical god.

4   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
August 21st, 2009 at 9:45 am

I have some respect for John Piper (although, it’s been getting smaller recently), but I find this line of reasoning quite ludicrous. It seems to me that we could go around forever trying to find divine reasons for every natural disaster or bad thing that happens to us. Honestly, I don’t think that’s the type of picture the Bible paints of the world.

I think bad things happen here because this is a planet ravaged in a spiritual war. When Jesus was on the boat with the disciples and a storm arose, He didn’t stop to teach them a lesson about repentance. He rebuked the storm. He didn’t attribute it to His Father – in fact quite the opposite. He saw as a work of the Enemy. His coming was an act of war, and His miracles were tactical strikes against the Prince of the Air.

5   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
August 21st, 2009 at 9:50 am

By the way, I’m not saying God can’t use things like natural disasters and suffering to bring people to a place of repentance, but saying God uses them is a lot different than saying He causes them.

6   Neil    
August 21st, 2009 at 9:52 am

John a desit god is not the God of the bible. It is a sub-biblical god.

I think John was just using the Deist as an example – not proportioning that any form of Deism.

7   Neil    
August 21st, 2009 at 9:57 am

That’s an odd post by Piper… he starts with a clear implication (or at least I easily made a clear inference) that God sent the tornado as a warning… but he ends with a Scriptural quote that denies the same.

8   John Hughes    
August 21st, 2009 at 9:58 am

KyleinWI

I got somewhat of a different take from Piper’s article. At the bottom line Piper is assigning motive. I don’t necessarily disagree as my post indicated I am just somewhat unsure on the issue.

I also appreciate your concern for my spiritual well being. As am amateur apologist for the past 30 years I am fully aware of what a Deist is. :-) . I said in regards to the weather I hold somewhat of the Deist’s outlook in that there are weather systems in place that do not **necessarily** require direct divine intervention on a moment by moment basis, but that God is certainly capable of directing the weather down to which leaf blows where if He so wills.

9   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
August 21st, 2009 at 10:02 am

That’s an odd post by Piper… he starts with a clear implication (or at least I easily made a clear inference) that God sent the tornado as a warning… but he ends with a Scriptural quote that denies the same.

It seems to be Piper’s template for bad events, really. Remember this classic?

10   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
August 21st, 2009 at 10:15 am

I must say you missed the point of Piper’s article. Re-read what Piper said. He made the gernal point that anytime bad things happen it always a reminder to us that we are sinful and desrve that also. Unless you repent you likewise will perish.

I don’t want to get into a huge thing with you Kyle, but can you tell me how I missed the point of Piper’s article when all I did was post a quote by David Sessions? If you could refrain from pronouncements of what we understand and do not understand it would be helpful. I read the article and much commentary from others and I’m quite sure at this point I didn’t miss Piper’s point.

Nor did Sessions.

11   KyleinWI    
August 21st, 2009 at 10:17 am

So is this just a personal opinion on God’s providence or is it based on scripture?

It seems to me God cause the rain to fail, he causes the sun to shine, and he causes the crops to grow. Everything is held together by him and for him.

It would seem a better argument would be. That the secret things are for God and belong to him alone, the things God has revealed(the bible) are for us and our children. We are not to try and divine events outside of the bible(God’s clear and sufficient revelation) as to whether God is for or against a certain person, church, government ect…

It is clear that we can apply the words of Jesus to ourselves and others. Do you think the ECLA(add what ever event you like) is worse sinners than you? I tell unless you repent…

12   KyleinWI    
August 21st, 2009 at 10:21 am

Well I do not see how the quote applies to Piper’s comment’s? I did not see Piper claiming with certainty that God did judge the ELCA with the storm and that means God is “on my side” regarding “human sexuality”

I just don’t see how the to realte.

Know the quote would work well for Farwell, he made great claims for knowing the things that God never revealed.

13   KyleinWI    
August 21st, 2009 at 10:23 am

Also the tone in your origianl post is not a very loving tone. Do not attack people. Attact ideas, that is where the battle is.

“Piper’s seeming omniscience into the mysteries of Trinitarian oeuvre”

14   John Hughes    
August 21st, 2009 at 10:23 am

Phil,

Actually I thought the bridge article was fairly balanced. I guess I come down to this, God may or may not overtly be the primary cause of the “bad” events that happen to me in life, but He certainly could have prevented them if He so willed, so I will just have to trust Him that there is an overriding reason, that He loves me and will work all things for my good. Calamaties **always** get our attention. It is unavoidable. They cause us to take stock and conclude with either strengthing our faith or the opposite. For God’s children I hope its the former.

15   Neil    
August 21st, 2009 at 10:32 am

That’s what I found odd about the Piper blog… he ends with a Scripture the point of which is “Do not assume ever calamity is a direct judgment by God – but be aware you too will die… one way or the other” –

Yet, his opening comments make it sound like he thinks Jesus sent the tornado.

I don’t know, it just seems to me that I (as if I am counseling the like of Piper) would have been more careful to distance myself from the likes of Fallwell and Robertson…

16   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
August 21st, 2009 at 10:35 am

Actually I thought the bridge article was fairly balanced. I guess I come down to this, God may or may not overtly be the primary cause of the “bad” events that happen to me in life, but He certainly could have prevented them if He so willed, so I will just have to trust Him that there is an overriding reason, that He loves me and will work all things for my good.

I would have agreed with this a few years ago, but now I don’t think I do. I don’t think that there has to be a divine reason behind everything that happens. Yes God can use bad things for His purposes, but that doesn’t mean His hand was in them. In fact I think much of the evil that happens is a direct affront against His will, and we should pray fervently against it.

This May and June my wife was almost killed by a horrible infection. I don’t for one minute believe that had anything to do with the will of God. I believe it was 100% from the Enemy. Yes, God has used it in certain ways, and He redeems, but it was not from Him. In some sense we could say He allowed it, but only in the sense that the universe He created is full of free agents that have the capability for good and evil.

I wholeheartedly agree that my only hope is God, and I am in His hand, but I will not attribute evil to His hands.

17   KyleinWI    
August 21st, 2009 at 10:50 am

“Everything works together for good” The question then is what is everything or all things? What does this verse mean?

18   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
August 21st, 2009 at 10:52 am

Yes, Phil. Last summer my brother in law Bobby, 30, died from a brain tumor. I have a hard time thinking that the ‘will of God.’

God’s will is not that we die. That is the satan’s will. His, the satan’s, will has always been that we die. ‘He was a murderer from the beginning.’ (John 8:44) We are not just dying here, we are being murdered.

God may well use these things, but I find it impossible to believe that God wills such things as death.

19   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
August 21st, 2009 at 11:02 am

“Everything works together for good” The question then is what is everything or all things? What does this verse mean?

Well, saying He “works everything together for good” isn’t saying anything about the actual cause of these events. It’s talking about His redemptive work. He brings beauty from ashes, and He is able to bring good from the most evil circumstances.

I actually think attributing evil to God is a somewhat dangerous place to be.

20   John Hughes    
August 21st, 2009 at 11:40 am

In some sense we could say He allowed it, but only in the sense that the universe He created is full of free agents that have the capability for good and evil.

Phil, this is primarily my understanding also and yet I leave room for God’s sovereign plan which in certain circumstances overrides men’s free will. I do believe in divine intervention which I believe occurs only when the outcome is a part of God’s sovereign master plan for the ages. however, even when He does not directly intervene He works all things for our good.

Let’s lay it on the table. The question before us is: in this age of grace does God still use death, natural disasters, sickness, etc. as an overt tool for chastisement? He certainly did under the old covenant and He certainly will at the end of this age. But, does He do so now?

I personally think a case can be made that He does, but to me, not a strong enough case to plant a flag on a hill, so to speak.

21   Neil    
August 21st, 2009 at 11:42 am

I’m with Phil on this one… at the risk of some inappropriate language “Shit happens”

Now, the question is… does the “everything works together…” verse really mean God sends the “shit”or is at Phil says – he can redeem the… well, you get the picture.

Of course I believe God can send/cause calamities. But I think the Scripture quoted by Piper in his blog is also a nice warning against assigning things to God… it really is a biblical version of “Shit happens.”

22   Neil    
August 21st, 2009 at 11:45 am

RE 20:

I agree John, he can…but I think anyone who ventures into “In this case he has…” is attributing things to God they ought not.

Here is one that I found kinda funny.

23   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
August 21st, 2009 at 11:55 am

Let’s lay it on the table. The question before us is: in this age of grace does God still use death, natural disasters, sickness, etc. as an overt tool for chastisement? He certainly did under the old covenant and He certainly will at the end of this age. But, does He do so now?

Well, it depends on what you mean by chastisement, I suppose. If you mean that as a way of saying that a certain event can be used to bring people to repentance, than yes, I’d say it happens quite frequently.

But if you’re meaning it in the sense that certain events happen because of our sin or as a punishment for them, then I’d say no. It seems to me that God would be modeling the behavior of an abusive Father if He went around punishing His children for things without explicitly telling them what they we were being punished for. If a dad just randomly spanks his child and says “you know what you did” and the kid has no idea, then that’s not loving correction – that’s abuse.

It seems to me that if we are going to attribute cause and effect to events, God has to inform us ahead of times of the rules. For example, when he gave the Law in Exodus, he clearly laid out the rules of the game – if you do this A will happen, if you do that B will happen. He isn’t capricious in His interactions with us.

24   deborah    http://smallcorner.typepad.com/mine/
August 21st, 2009 at 12:18 pm

Can someone explain to me why tornados and other destructive forces (or chastisement) only occur in relation to homosexuality and not idolatry, adultery, greed, alcoholism, reviling and swindling?

25   Brett S    
August 21st, 2009 at 12:38 pm

The question before us is: in this age of grace does God still use death, natural disasters, sickness, etc. as an overt tool for chastisement?

I think he can, but it’s not our job to know God’s will in these things. I think you guys are focusing on the wrong “R” word (repentance/chastisement) when it comes to suffering and death.

Maybe a better question is does God still use suffering and death for Redemption. Just take a look at a crucifix; has there ever been a greater natural disaster than that?

26   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
August 21st, 2009 at 12:44 pm

Maybe a better question is does God still use suffering and death for Redemption. Just take a look at a crucifix; has there ever been a greater natural disaster than that?

Exactly!

I find it kind of ironic that Piper, Mr. Calvinist himself, somehow takes these events and makes them about us. If we’re truly concerned about God’s glory, let’s talk about God’s magnificent plan of redemption and His faithfulness to the world despite the sinfulness and evil that abounds.

27   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
August 21st, 2009 at 1:11 pm

Can someone explain to me why tornados and other destructive forces (or chastisement) only occur in relation to homosexuality and not idolatry, adultery, greed, alcoholism, reviling and swindling?

or divorce…or gossip…or racism…or hatred…or..

28   Neil    
August 21st, 2009 at 1:18 pm

Can someone explain to me why tornados and other destructive forces (or chastisement) only occur in relation to homosexuality and not idolatry, adultery, greed, alcoholism, reviling and swindling?

That’s a great observation. Though the link I provided “proved” God only sent hurricanes to the counties in Florida that voted Bush.

29   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 21st, 2009 at 2:49 pm

Does no one remember the words of Jesus?

When things happened like a tower falling, many Jews say that as sign of judgment against that person… Yet Jesus points out that this is not true.

Luke 13

1. Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3. I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
4. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them–do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5. I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

Jesus pointed out that God does not pick out some to judge because there sin is worse than others… but that all people need to repent or they will perish.

To attribute acts of nature to God as judgment against another, (and yes I acknowledge God is sovereign and controls all things) is wrong… Who are we to judge another? We judge as limited and mere men who know nothing of what is really going on. Only God knows what He s doing.

Another point in this is when Peter asked Jesus about John. Jesus replied:

John 21:22. Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.”

Sometimes I see people as obsessed with others walk or what God is doing with other people, yet Jesus tells Peter, “You must follow me.” That is what we should be doing… not judging others as more sinful that we are… in a sense that is just plain sick and a denial of our own sin.

iggy

30   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 21st, 2009 at 2:52 pm

Does anyone remember that some Dobson follower prayed that the Democrat convention would be rained out? Yet, using Piper logic, God sent a hurricane to the Republican conventions… hmmm what message was God sending there?

Or why is it God when it is our (supposed) enemy and Satan when we are attacked? Again, man is so fickle and dumb that if God was sending us a message we would give Satan the glory for attacking us.

Again who are we to know the workings of God? Who is man that we know the mind of God and what He does?

31   Aaron    
August 21st, 2009 at 3:17 pm

Sometimes it seems like because we’re so afraid to attribute anything horrible to God (such as the Tornado), we end up attributing nothing to His will.

Perhaps I skimmed too quickly, but has anyone thought “it is a very distinct possibility”?

32   nc    
August 21st, 2009 at 3:32 pm

isn’t Piper the one who warned Driscoll about being “clever” or “provocative”…?

regardless, if such a happening occurred at the SBC general convention or even Piper’s own denominational gathering, it would be regarded as some tragic happenstance, etc. etc.

But so long as a random act of nature gets directed at those “evil liberal mainliners” then even non-Calvinists see the “wisdom” of his article…

ugh…

i guess since falwell is dead, and robertson’s jumped the shark one too many time, the evangelical “crazy” quotient needed a supplement.

after the bridge article…well…he’s actually outdone himself…

please peddle crazy elsewhere…we’re all full up here.

33   Neil    
August 21st, 2009 at 3:33 pm

Does anyone remember that some Dobson follower prayed that the Democrat convention would be rained out? Yet, using Piper logic, God sent a hurricane to the Republican conventions… hmmm what message was God sending there?

The funny thing about this is THIS interpretation.

34   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
August 21st, 2009 at 3:34 pm

Sometimes it seems like because we’re so afraid to attribute anything horrible to God (such as the Tornado), we end up attributing nothing to His will.

Perhaps I skimmed too quickly, but has anyone thought “it is a very distinct possibility”?

I’m not afraid to attribute anything to His will, but I do think we need to be careful attributing destructive things to His will. It seems to me that the final picture we are given of what The Kingdom looks like is the ministry of Jesus. When Jesus started His ministry, He read this passage of Scripture as His mandate:

Isaiah 61:1-4
1 The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me,
because the LORD has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners, [a]

2 to proclaim the year of the LORD’s favor
and the day of vengeance of our God,
to comfort all who mourn,

3 and provide for those who grieve in Zion—
to bestow on them a crown of beauty
instead of ashes,
the oil of gladness
instead of mourning,
and a garment of praise
instead of a spirit of despair.
They will be called oaks of righteousness,
a planting of the LORD
for the display of his splendor.

4 They will rebuild the ancient ruins
and restore the places long devastated;
they will renew the ruined cities
that have been devastated for generations.

It’s hard to simultaneously rebuild something while destroying it.

35   Neil    
August 21st, 2009 at 3:34 pm

nc,

In all fairness to Piper he did end the short blog with the verse Iggy pointed out above – that pretty much tells us calamities happen to all.

Although the opening comments seem awfully Fallwellian.

36   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 21st, 2009 at 4:21 pm

The point I was trying to make was that though Piper quotes the same scripture, he missed the point Jesus stated. Was it a warning? No more than when the hurricane headed to McCain and Obama went on to give his acceptance speak with out any rain… did God favor Obama and not McCain? Some might say so… but then does that mean God is a Democrat?

This is the strange and weird logic when you allow personal interpretation overrun clear biblical teachings… So… would it be Satan attacking Piper or God warning Piper if something bad happened to him or his family?

Sometimes bad things just happen… because this is a fallen world… and it is only to remind us all that we need a Savior and not to get to haughty.

37   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 21st, 2009 at 4:25 pm

BTW

This statement is a bit naive if not an outright lie.. though not that I am saying he is intentionally lying…

2. The church has always embraced those who forsake sexual sin but who still struggle with homosexual desires, rejoicing with them that all our fallen, sinful, disordered lives (all of us, no exceptions) are forgiven if we turn to Christ in faith.

I have met many who struggle and were not accepted… they were told to leave or that they were still not saved. Unless the Church sees people as people and not by labels… then we are keep others away from Jesus as He draws them to Himself.

38   nc    
August 21st, 2009 at 4:44 pm

Neil,

i hear you…but does that un-do the whole of the article?

he’s not a stupid person, that article plays right to the worst in people. the last verse just looks like a “cover my ass” move since we can see where he spends the majority of his time.

39   merry    
August 21st, 2009 at 5:00 pm

I am so confused by what John Piper is trying to say in this article.

Here’s what I got out of it:

1) There was an unexpected tornado at the same time as a meeting discussing a controversial topic.

2) Specific controversial topic is a sin.

3) Therefore, unexpected tornado was “gentle (?) reminder” to repent from ALL sin.

If looked at as a syllogism, it doesn’t quite work…..

I also think that one of the verses he used could actually be used against the very vague point he was half-way trying to make: “Those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:4-5)
It seems to me Jesus was telling his disciples NOT to look for special signs in catastrophes.

I agree with what someone at Patrol Magazine said–looking for signs in the weather just seems kind of pagan…..especially when one could just read Scripture and come to the same conclusions. I’m trying to think of any stories in the bible where God spoke through weather….my mind is blank right now but if there are, it was certainly long before God’s word was available to everyone.

40   Neil    
August 21st, 2009 at 5:48 pm

i hear you…but does that un-do the whole of the article?

he’s not a stupid person, that article plays right to the worst in people. the last verse just looks like a “cover my ass” move since we can see where he spends the majority of his time. – nc

Agreed – it is odd.

41   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
August 21st, 2009 at 6:27 pm

I think you are missing the point.

Could God have used this as a way to grab people’s attention? For sure.

It didn’t seem to have much of an impact, however. Maybe these folks are so hardened that they didn’t take it as a warning. Maybe thay said Ah no one got hurt! God approves!

The stupid thing is, if they just read their Bible they would see that He doesn’t.

Does God know what happened? Yep. Does He control the weather? Yep. Is he in control of who dies? Yep. Was God responsible for the trees being uprooted? Yep. Does he know what goes on everywhere on a day to day basis? Yep. Whatever the vote is, is it the will of God? Yep. Does God approve of the sin it represents? Nope. Will there be consequences for these leaders? YEP.

42   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
August 21st, 2009 at 6:29 pm

#24 and #27
Whose to say they do not?

Who is to say those very sins did not occour in the S. Minneapolis neighborhoods?

But what makes it different? This is a religious body naming the name of Jesus and approving of and promoting sin.

43   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 21st, 2009 at 6:51 pm

Weird… was there a comment removed… not mine… but I thought there was one complaining about me (by a commentator saying I discredit myself or whatever)…

It now seems to be missing.

44   merry    
August 21st, 2009 at 7:06 pm

A second thought: If we’re even going to talk about homosexuality, I found this post to be extremely convicting and interesting….there’s a lot of us who are much more deserving of tornadoes than homosexuals….

45   Joe    
August 21st, 2009 at 9:07 pm

Whatever the vote is, is it the will of God? yep.

I work with a kid (currently 15) who was pimped out by his mom when he was 2. Then sexually abused for 3 years by his dad and 1.5 years by his foster parents. Do you believe it was God’s will that those things happened to him? Assuming you do, would you tell him that to his face?

Wonder if I’ll get an answer.

46   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
August 21st, 2009 at 9:40 pm

Alert! Alert! John has nailed it:

I think you are missing the point.

Sorry old buddy, but Kyle in Wisconsin already told us that. Try again!

47   nc    
August 21st, 2009 at 9:51 pm

Whatever the vote is, is it the will of God? Yep.

where was this statement during the presidential election?

oh, yeah…God’s will is God’s will only when it works for your paradigm…

if a tornado ripped through a convention center of southern baptists, tragically killing a majority of “messengers”, i think we’d be hearing a similar message (to the credit of some), but with a different tone…since they aren’t the “wrong kind” of Christians that the ELCA must be…

ugh.

48   nc    
August 21st, 2009 at 9:55 pm

#45:

John Piper would probably say “yes” and appeal to the higher mysteries of God’s being and God’s inscrutable “glory”…and leave it at that if you’re an ELCA member.

I’m sure he’d be a bit more pastoral for his brand of christian.

notice “mystery” only works at the edges of determinism and pseudo-theological hedges…but any other appeal to mystery in the mouth of anyone else amounts to a rejection of truth.

in some ways none of us should be shocked when he jumped the shark with that bridge collapse article a while back.

ick.

49   nc    
August 21st, 2009 at 9:57 pm

actually, now that i think of it, if Piper’s right, then maybe such a tragedy at an SBC conference would be God’s judgement for the crappy way they went about their “takeover” and the crappy way they continue to tear each other over stupid issues.

maybe it’s God’s judgement for their idolatry of nation and placing their hope in government, and their refusal to condemn torture…

see how this b.s. can cut both ways?

50   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 21st, 2009 at 10:39 pm

Whatever the vote is, is it the will of God? Yep. Does God approve of the sin it represents? Nope. Will there be consequences for these leaders? YEP.

Let’s work this out logically…

Whatever the vote is, is it the will of God? Yep.

So whether the vote was to ordain practicing gay or lesbian pastors, or not… say it was yes, then that was the will of God. So God willed that there be gay and lesbian pastors in that denomination.

Yet.

Does God approve of the sin it represents? Nope.

So it is the will of God that gay and lesbian pastors are allowed, even if it is sin. yet God does not approve of sin… instead… He WILLS IT… HUH!?!?!?!?!! Screeeeeech!

If it is the will of God, then the bible teaches it is He good and perfect will. It will not promote sin… so this is a bunch of BS and anti biblical as can be! How can a holy God will man to sin?

Now God can present a path that is right and man can harden or soften his heart toward the will of God… but to say God wills sinful actions of men and women means that God is approving it.

If someone writes a will it is their approval as to how their inheritance is to be used. They approve of their will being done in such a way… and that is the same with God… so to say God wills something is saying God approves of it.

It is simple logic and truly to teach God wills people to sin contradicts scripture.

James 1: 13. When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14. but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. 16. Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers. 17. Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

So all I can say that if someone teaches such crap in their church they are teaching that God approves of sin and then wills it on people… thus showing their disbelief in what the scripture teaches. Their double speak shows their heart and contempt toward the kindness of God.

Shame on such people! They truly need to repent of saying God approves of and wills sin.

iggy

51   Chris P.    
August 21st, 2009 at 11:06 pm

Romans 8:
28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

All things work together for good to those who love God. Those who love God happen to be the foreknown and predestined, who are called according to His purpose.These ar those who are justified and glorified.
All things obviously do not work for good to “everybody”

As for “iggy” and his inane comment, where does one begin?

Romans 9:
20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

I know this goes against the arminian/pelagian/quasi-universalist stronghold that you dwell in.

Romans 1:
26For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

God gives men over to their sin.
Their error is idolatry, worship of the creature. The due penalty for that error is; they are turned over to homosexuality.
Did God will this and do this? YEP!

oh oh……..

52   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 21st, 2009 at 11:43 pm

Chris P,

All you have shown is that you have no grasp of the scripture you cut and paste but really love to state falsehood about me… BTW The AG was mainly Arminian when I was about to be ordained in it… it has changed but you just condemned many of your own fellow denomination believers. Also, I do not believe in Universalism http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/search?q=universalism

But really truth still seems to mean nothing to you and casting stones has become you greatest gift.

I do recommend you read more than what the Calvinist read… like Romans 8,9,10 all in context together instead of just taking out your favorite misunderstood passages.

So you agree with PB that God wills something without approving of it… yet claim to the sovereignty of God as proof God does not approve of what He just willed.

Oye Vey… great logic and truly unbiblical and you are too blind to see how faulty the logic is…

Sad you are a “worship” leader…

53   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 21st, 2009 at 11:48 pm

Also Chris P you are missing the whole point Paul is teaching in Romans 1 as you need to keep reading to get to Romans 3 which pulls it together… again, you are picking and choosing things that really prove my point.

Paul is pointing out that the Gentiles are sinful all through Romans 1… the Jews are rooting Paul all and then Paul lowers the boom saying in Chapter 3 “”There is no one righteous, not even one;” which includes both Jew and Gentile… Paul tells the Jew that they have no right to judge the Gentile as God has chosen to save them in spite of their sin and Paul repeats this in Romans 9 and 10… but really I doubt you will get any of this as your heart is hard and your eyes are blind.

iggy

54   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 21st, 2009 at 11:51 pm

Here is the visual of PB and Chris P logic

55   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
August 22nd, 2009 at 12:27 am

God gives men over to their sin.

If this is true in the sense that you mean it, then why did he send the tornado to the convention? We don’t have any clues that the men and women there are practicing homosexuals. As it is, all they were going to do is talk about it.

I guess by your logic, if God were going to judge them, he would have just turned them all into homosexuals instead of sending a tornado.

You are pathetic Chris P.

56   Julie    http://www.loneprairie.net
August 22nd, 2009 at 12:39 am

The problem with doing any kind of numbers count in the Bible (the number of verses dealing with poverty/needy vs. some other sin/topic) is that we effectively lessen one at the raising of the other.

It’s over-correction.

Recent events in my life have caused me to see the very danger of doing this numbers game, and how it affects my own faith and concepts of sin and hope and deliverance; it is an easy way for me to start telling myself “it was only mentioned a few times, so it is not as important a sin as this other thing.” We have to be very careful in that we don’t give ourselves additional excuses, or give non-believers an opportunity to think that, frankly, caring for the poor is all it takes to get to heaven. I know some believe this, and it sounds quite good and loving and caring, and almost as if it fulfills the Gospel, that that is the Gospel. There is more to it; more things were talked about; not as much, but nevertheless, they were. I hate to turn the Bible into a kind of spiritual abacus.

I’m not into lightning strikes for particular sins, nor keeping score according to how I see it. Over-correcting (in this case, addressing the very real issue of ignoring how we view poverty) to address a serious slight in another area is just as dangerous. In aviation, over-correcting in my navigation throws me off the course just as well. I still miss the destination point.

I do tire of the standard response of “Jesus talked about the poor more than X”. It gets done to death. It’s the standard mantra, now, which plays well with people and makes the Gospel seem like social services.

You know what? Yes. He did. He did say it that much. That’s recorded. There is also the fact that we are told that there is so much more that Jesus did but wasn’t written down. We are only aware of what was written; God saw fit to put in what he did, perhaps because he knew we needed more reminders to get it into our head to care about people who are in need. This isn’t to give it more weight, necessarily, but that we take 300 hits upside the head to notice what he’s saying. And there is also the very real fact that Jesus also dealt with fighting off temptation even in a difficult physical state, as well as asking us to be perfect like him. It isn’t all about caring for the needy; we can’t keep presenting it like that to correct for those who are out there saying it’s all about do’s and don’ts.

All this to say that, again, the numbers game is dangerous. Having only one mention of a topic doesn’t make it less valuable than that which has 300. It was mentioned. It’s in there. Over-correction serves no purpose. I am loathe to form a numbers-based sin hierarchy of some sort, which is what you’re doing anytime you use it as a response to someone gone berserk on legalism.

57   Julie    http://www.loneprairie.net
August 22nd, 2009 at 12:40 am

I do want to add that the specifics of this discussion are uneasily close to my heart right now, so I’m not going to dive into it in that regard; this can be a brutal comments section and I can’t hold up on that end of it, personally or spiritually. I just wanted to comment on the danger of doing the numbers game as I described above.

58   Julie    http://www.loneprairie.net
August 22nd, 2009 at 12:43 am

One of the greatest gifts God can give a person is break them with something they held very dear as a belief and suddenly realize that, in the real and warm malleable existence of life, they can still believe it, but the sharp tongue is replaced.

59   Chris P.    
August 22nd, 2009 at 10:28 am

You all miss the point. Of course Paul is showing all men are sinful. However God turns them over to their sin.
2 Thess 2 tells us that HE sends a strong delusion on men. Why?? They do not love the Tuth, in fact they never love the Truth.
In John 8 Jesus tells the listeners that they are not of God, which accounts for their nonacceptance of Him and His Word.

Since I do not brag about the ministry I am entrusted with, I will say this; I have many churches, minitries etc who ask me to come and “lead” worship for them. This is because I actually lead worship and stick to the Word alone, unlike this blog, its’ contributors, and the eisegetical mush that you promote. You are actually the pathetic ones, and if my reason is circular then so, is the reasoning of the scriptures.
You dolts are in love with yourselves and you worship your own intellects, what little you have.
What is sad is to see are the ones who are in thrall of the strong delusion.
Stick to the talmud and whatever are the recently published, post-modern liberal tomes, which you love so much, are saying. I will stick to the person of Jesus Christ who is the living Torah.

BTW Piper’s article does not say what you claim it says. Morons all!

60   Chris P.    
August 22nd, 2009 at 10:40 am

Indeed all are God’s vessels. However some are created for wrath and some for mercy and men have nothing to say about it.
I do not pick or choose scriptures at random. The Bible is one complete Word and it exegetes itself, All outside sources of revelation are neo-gnostic.

I suggest you talk to someone from the twin cities area before you pass judgment on Piper. I have two brothers who live there, and they told me information that has beenleft out by the obviously superior ones such as yourselves.

61   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
August 22nd, 2009 at 10:44 am

I will stick to the person of Jesus Christ who is the living Torah.

BTW Piper’s article does not say what you claim it says. Morons all!

You gotta love the self-contradictory nature of someone claiming to “stick the person of Jesus Christ”and then following up with calling us all morons…

Maybe you need to look into what following Christ actually means a bit more, Chris P.

62   Joe    http://joemartino.name
August 22nd, 2009 at 11:43 am

Chris P. Do you believe it is God’s will that the kid I referenced was abused?

63   Julie    http://www.loneprairie.net
August 22nd, 2009 at 2:03 pm

You dolts are in love with yourselves and you worship your own intellects, what little you have

Good grief.

64   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 22nd, 2009 at 2:14 pm

I see anyone who calls other morons which insinuates they are “smarter” cuz they know Jesus and others don’t misses the whole point of saved by Grace and not works…

I am glad to be a moron saved by Grace through faith in Jesus Christ and not claim I am smarter than those who have not come to faith yet…

Thanks Chris P for letting us know that you see yourself on some special plain of Grace the rest of us have yet to earn… (Personally, I hope I never earn Grace from God… It is nullify it.)

Again the logical of delusional faith that Chris P has shows itself clearly to those that see by Faith and not depend their own greatness for salvation.

I am sooo edified by you Chris P… :rolleyes:

65   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 22nd, 2009 at 2:21 pm

Chris P,

If a woman is raped, is that God’s will to you?

If a child is sold as a sex slave, is that God’s will to you?

I mean that is what you are claiming in your statements above. God willed it as He is soverign.

Personally I don’t see God willing sin and evil on people… but then I guess your God is angry about everythign and you reflect that. My God seeks justice and wants us to end such suffering…

I like my God…

“The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness,
maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.”

That God is so unlike your god Chris P… Yours must hates everyone… and I wonder if you think he hates you also… My prayers are with and for you.

66   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:15 pm

#62
Joe,
God knew it happened
He allowed it to happen
He didn’t stop it from happening.

I think you are confusing God’s sovereign will with his desires. Example: God is longsuffering, He is not willing that any should perish but that all would come to repentance.

Using your logic, that would mean that none would perish, because God is not willing. God’s longsuffering is waiting for His to repent- His justice will not allow any who have not to be saved. Remember- death came to man through one man and one sin. Because of Adam all sinned.

Did he want for the kid to get abused? Nope. Was it in His will that it happened? Well, since it happened, it was in His will. Will the abuser face consequences from God because of his sin? Absolutely! (unless he/she repents)

67   nc    
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:56 pm

don’t bother, Iggy.

the person you’re talking to wouldn’t do you the favor of even growing only one ball and actually answer the question.

68   nc    
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:56 pm

then again…he might be doing himself a favor by…

oh, nevermind.

69   nc    
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:58 pm

#59

Chris P…you don’t know anything about how people here lead worship, or if they play that role in the first place.

But praise be to you, o great god of worship.

I’m not sorry to say that you’re a real dick.

70   Neil    
August 22nd, 2009 at 4:32 pm

Chris P.,

Why the anger?
Why the insults?
We are brothers in Christ, yet you call us morons?
We are brothers in Christ.

I ask you to explain what Piper meant, if we got it wrong.

71   Neil    
August 22nd, 2009 at 4:33 pm

OK – I suggest we all knock of the name calling… oh that I had the ability to put people in moderation…

72   Neil    
August 22nd, 2009 at 4:36 pm

I suggest you talk to someone from the twin cities area before you pass judgment on Piper. I have two brothers who live there, and they told me information that has been left out by the obviously superior ones such as yourselves.

Case in point: you could have just given the information. Yet, instead, you choose to withhold and insult.

I do not think you really care what is said here, or have any desire to participate – you simply seem to get off by insulting people.

73   Neil    
August 22nd, 2009 at 4:39 pm

Pastorboy,

We all agree God is ultimately in control of the weather. The question remains – did he specifically cause that tornado to hit that building for that reason?

And if your answer is “yes” – I ask “How do you know that?”

74   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
August 22nd, 2009 at 4:42 pm

I agree that we are morons. Fools for Christ. Coming from Chris P., it’s more like a compliment.

75   Pastorboy    http://crninfo.wordpress.com
August 22nd, 2009 at 5:19 pm

#73
God knew it hit the building, He Knew who was meeting there, he certainly knows and controls the weather.

I do not know why it hit specific buildings, but the locations it hit and the time it hit were kind of interesting, don’t you think?

It would at least give me pause had I been in any of those buildings, including homes, that got hit.

76   Zan    
August 22nd, 2009 at 6:20 pm

#66,

Did he want for the kid to get abused? Nope. Was it in His will that it happened? Well, since it happened, it was in His will.

You just said that God “willed” sin. His will is not for people to be hurt! You are over the line here, and I suggest you step away from the keyboard and do some really deep biblical searching without your preconceived ideas before you head further down this idea. This is dangerous. To assign deeds of the evil one to our God is….?

77   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
August 22nd, 2009 at 6:22 pm

The tornados that are sent from God to kill and destroy are always cross shaped. Any person who claims he knows the divine purpose from tragedy thinks more highly of himself than he should.

When a gay person skids off a rain slicked highway and dies you must realize that God sent that rain.

* It is goofy statements like Piper’s that turn away sinners from Jesus, but who cares, they were not elected anyway. Two thousand years later and some are still clueless about the meaning and scope of the gospel of redemption.

“The unrepentant practice of homosexual behavior (like other sins) will exclude a person from the kingdom of God.”

Does that include greed, 401ks, pride, stocks, speeding, covetousness, financial gain through books, financial gain through Christian cruises, teaching that Christ only died for a myopic few, and ANY sin?

Be aware, when your blog crashes it is God’s warning to you – unless you are orthodox then it is the devil. And if God decides He’s had enough of your seeker/purpose driven/emergent nonesense He will kill you in your own baptistry. Those suggestions are doctrinal poison and completely anti-gospel.

(I had to break my fast since I am particularly offended by the singling out of gay sinners. Remember, on that particular day in Minneapolis there were most likely people committing adultry in homes and motels, which I guess that tornado had no desire to address. Adultery is addressed by dust storms, not tornados. Some sins are more respectable than are others.)

78   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
August 22nd, 2009 at 6:25 pm

I don’t believe God controls the weather at least in the sense that He micromanages it. He created this planet with atmospheric conditions such that things move in cyclical ways, but I don’t believe He control the weather any more than He controls things like tidal patterns.

Personally, I don’t believe God is so insecure that He has to micromanage everything in the Universe for His glory. He most glorified when His creatures respond to Him in love, and love by definition is not coercion. If God sent tornadoes anytime people were thinking about disobeying Him, there would be a lot more tornadoes.

All the talk of God sending messages via the whether reminds me of this passage in 1 Kings 19:11-13

11 The LORD said, “Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the LORD, for the LORD is about to pass by.”
Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. 12 After the earthquake came a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper. 13 When Elijah heard it, he pulled his cloak over his face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave.
Then a voice said to him, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”

Looking for God in earthquakes and fires is what pagans do. But Yahweh speaks in a whisper, because He is not like other gods.

79   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
August 22nd, 2009 at 6:32 pm

Hi Rick!

It’s nice to hear from you again…

I find it quite ludicrous (to use Zan’s phrase here in RL) that any but the most stupid, perverted or immature Christians would claim that all events (including evil and sin) are “God’s will”. It’s no wonder they’re the same ones who couldn’t discern their way out of a wet paper back.

Phil gets it exactly right when he says:

Looking for God in earthquakes and fires is what pagans do. But Yahweh speaks in a whisper, because He is not like other gods.

And, like Rick, I find it hypocritical (in the least) when we Christians get so hyper-focused on wanting to see God’s judgment on a particular sin few of us struggle with (at least publicly), ignoring the ones we gladly participate in 6 days a week and sometimes on Sunday…

80   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
August 22nd, 2009 at 6:35 pm

God knew it hit the building, He Knew who was meeting there, he certainly knows and controls the weather.

I could probably make a strong case that God has ceded control of the weather to the satan–at least in the book of Job.

And then there’s that strange case in Mark’s Gospel where Jesus rebukes the storm using the same language he used to rebuke demons in chapter 1.

Rick, blessings to you. I’m glad to hear your voice again. You have been missed.

81   Jerry    http://www.dangoldfinch.wordpress.com
August 22nd, 2009 at 6:53 pm

John Piper has clarified his thoughts on tornadoes here.

You may or may not enjoy:

My tornado was a call to repentance. Yours will be too. But that is not Satan’s design. Only God’s. Satan’s design is that you approve your sin. God’s is that you let him forgive it and overcome it.

82   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
August 22nd, 2009 at 7:09 pm

I reject the word “sent”. God uses everything, but how does God send cancer to His children? Would I send cancer to my children? And if God needs cancer to speak to preachers, what does He use for the average believer?

This whole issue is nothing more than conjecture and Christian superstition. When a denomination reaches the point that they are discussing approving sinful behavior then it looks like God has long since missed His chance. And if a practicing gay person cannot inherit the kingdom of God, then they were not one of the elect anyway – God be glorified!!

** This just in – Hugh Hefner is now 83 years old and still demeaning and using women. If he was gay things would have been much different. :roll:

83   Joe    
August 22nd, 2009 at 7:21 pm

#66
John, what logic did I use? I asked you a question. I never said what my thoughts were on the situation. But thanks for telling me what would happen if “we used my logic” which you get to define.

84   nc    
August 22nd, 2009 at 9:59 pm

can i just say that rick is a good guy. even though he and i may have disagreements, etc…

but that’s a good soul there…and intellectually honest, consistent, etc.

just had to give credit where credit is due.

85   nc    
August 22nd, 2009 at 10:04 pm

lovely bit of satire:

http://jenellparis.blogspot.com/2009/08/toddler-discharge-and-humidity-john.html

86   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
August 23rd, 2009 at 8:25 am

Thank you, nc.

This kind of interpreting the weather is Christian snobbery on display. And just to justify and authenticate your seer status, you throw in your bout with cancer so you are not accused of judging.

I request all of you reread the original Piper post. Notice the absence of compassion or pathos or emotion as it concerns the complex struggle of same sex attractions. Defending one’s doctrinal position trumps any uncomfortable outreach to a group of people who have serious issues and have felt bludgeoned by those who bear Christ’s name.

There are truths worth defending between, as it were, theologian to theologian, but when millions of sinners who are just trying to get through the day are marginalized as a monolithic group of breathing abominations, then we are no longer representatives of the Redeemer. And the best we can come up with is that the God of the universe can break an insignificant church steeple, then we have indeed marginalized the cross itself.

This gay issue has uncovered the repulsive underbelly of evangelicalism and has in stark relief shown the world that we are more interested in people’s sins than we are their redemption. I recoil at such pitiful prophetic papal bulls.

We seem to have become a people who revel in teaching-teaching-teaching about God while being painfully blind concerning the more redemptive and compromising aspects of living the Christ life. Redemption isn’t just a doctrine, it must be disseminated by lives and words that bear no resemblance to anyone else but Him. Our love, grace, and even fellowship with sinners must bring shame and accusation against ourselves, not by the world, but by the Pharisitical wing of our spiritual community.

The Christian God could only muster a small, broken steeple? Even Buddha and Mohammed collaberated and came up with a tsunami which killed 250,000. Now who has the power?

Our genuine power comes not from knowledge or power, it is dynamic in the essence of humility and weakness. The weakest man who ever lived was Christ who claimed to be God yet could not even save Himself from death. We still have yet to understand and reconcile what that truly means in our lives. The victory will always be found in seeming defeat.

Gary Ridgway, the Green River Killer, murdered scores of women. As he sat in the penalty phase he heard tens of people castigate him and rejoice in his going to hell. Ridgway watched them emotionless. But one white bearded man came to the podium, whose daughter had been murdered, and told Gary that God commanded him to forgive him, and that he did.

Ridgeway openly wept for the one and only time throughout the entire trial. There is power, unimagineable power, in redemption. But that power can only be realized if we leave our doctrinal libraries and begin giving out cups of cold water to the most repulsive, most arrogant, and most unrepentant pink boa wearing sinners among us. Until then we remain Biblical scholars and not living epistles.

87   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
August 23rd, 2009 at 5:31 pm

The tornado did not work.

Perhaps the plague, or a comet, or a $1.00 rise in gas prices next time. :roll:

Or maybe an uncomfortable and unorthodox outreach of love, grace, and redemption? Something similar to the cross.

88   Neil    
August 23rd, 2009 at 9:38 pm

#73
God knew it hit the building, He Knew who was meeting there, he certainly knows and controls the weather.

I do not know why it hit specific buildings, but the locations it hit and the time it hit were kind of interesting, don’t you think?

It would at least give me pause had I been in any of those buildings, including homes, that got hit. – Pastorboy

Of course God knew all these things. And I am glad you are unwilling to say he caused it to hit the building…

That said, sure it’s interesting, but is it any less interesting than a hurricane hitting the Republican Convention?

89   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
August 23rd, 2009 at 9:46 pm

I tried to submit this but recieved an error message.

CRN stole this picture from the owner and used it without permission. The owner is Ron Hodgman and he posted it on Flicker.com. CRN used Ron Hodgman’s property (the picture) with out permission. What integrity Ken has! http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=12904

I know that is not what this thread is about… but man…

90   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
August 29th, 2009 at 7:52 am

More nonesense.

The error that some denominations commit by ordaining practicing gays is only rivaled by the self righteousness of practicing heterosexuals. When will some believers learn that sin is birthed in the “bedroom” of the heart, and that sin itself is often employed in a misguided attempt to demean others and elevate ourselves?

Without the gay community many would have to dismantle a lartge portion of their “ministry”. Thank you, gay people, you have provided a scape goat that blinds us to our own sin and helps us think more highly of ourselves than we should.