“Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper’s bell of an approaching looter.” – Ayn Rand
“Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.” – Deut 25:4
Part I: Laying the Groundwork
Part II: Principles and Strategic Choices
Part III: A Laffer Matter
[NOTE: This will likely be the most contentious article in this series, as there are no "good"/"painless" answers. Whether we suffer a gradual descent into madness via incremental socialism or whether we're able to accelerate the its catastrophic failure, people will be hurt - regardless. My contention is that fewer will be hurt by a catastrophic failure - if the recovery is to learn from the failure and to ditch socialist and semi-socialist policies - than by the steady decline inevitable in the existing and proposed Ponzi schemes of government-provided health-care. Most, if not all of my 'Galt-ish' suggestions are simply pushing trends faster in the direction they will already be going, for optimum "failure-potential".]
Assumptions
While no health-care “reform” bill has yet passed out of the House or Senate this year, it is probably a safe assumption that one will – in some form, popular opinion be damned – ultimately pass. I’ve already written on the topic at least three times this year.
Within that plan, for the sake of this article, I will assume that there will be provisions that:
- Prevent health insurance companies from policy denial for pre-existing conditions (”Guaranteed Issue”) and from charging different rates to different customers, based on their risk potential (”Community Rating”). What this means, if this were auto insurance, is that ACME Insurance would have to insure Lindsay Lohan, and they would have to insure her at the same rates as my father-in-law, who I’m not sure has received a ticket or been in an accident that was his fault in 50+ years of driving.
- Require individuals to carry health insurance or pay a fine (for which the fine would be significantly less money than the cost of insurance). What this means, using the above example, is that Ms. Lohan is better off paying the fine for not having insurance until after she’s been in an accident.
- Pay doctors on a scale tied to the same scale as Medicare (which most often pays doctors less than their actual costs of providing care).
By the time the government system fails, the goal of “going Galt” should be making it obvious that the road to hell is truly paved with good intentions.
The Looming Tsunami
Currently, there are 267 doctors (without regard to specialty) per 100,000 residents in the USA – a downward trend since the high-water mark of 279/100K in 2000. Even that mark was below the optimal mark – thought to be in the range of 325-350/100K – to support the medical system as it is used in America. Even worse is the huge shortfall in Primary Care Physicians (PCP’s) – where the majority of PCP’s are within 10 years of retirement (right when the wave of Baby Boom retirements hit) and the supply of graduates is less than 50% the number of retirements.
To make matters worse, the trend-line in graduates is headed downward – dropping 50% between 1997 and 2006, and is only kept afloat by the increasing number of immigrant students, willing to help fill the ranks. And it’s not just “about the money” (PCP’s earn 50+% less than most specialists), but also the work, itself – which has longer hours, a more demanding customer base, and lower reimbursement rates from payers. With med-school bills of $300K+ and an ever-increasing risk/reward ratio, along with an explosion in defensive medicine, malpractice insurance and burdensome paperwork that consumes 10 minutes of work for every 1 minute with a patient, it’s no wonder medicine is not an attractive field to enter.
And let’s not even start with nurses – the numbers are even bleaker for nursing, where the shortage has hit much sooner, primarily due to the physical demands of the job that many older nurses cannot sustain for 40-60 hours/week, and that an incoming supply cannot keep up with.
Compounding these issues is the aging demographics of America. With the first ‘Boomer turning 70 in 2016, the need for PCP’s and nurses is going to skyrocket in the next 10 years without any expansion in government-provided services, and shortages will reach crisis levels for adult patients. One can only imagine the Class-5 catastrophe that will occur if 30-47 million more patients are added to the already overburdened and tightening system.
It is no wonder that two-thirds of physicians oppose ObamaCare, and 45% are considering retiring or cutting back if it passes! Added patient-load (that won’t cover baseline costs) and increased risk (since the Dem’s are in the pockets of trial lawyers opposed to tort-reform) make O-Care a lose-lose proposition for anyone in a health-care role.
Carry Out the Threat
In a recent survey, 4 out of 9 doctors said they would curtail their practices or retire (see Part III of this series for more on this) if ObamaCare passes. Carry out this threat! If you’re a doctor late in your career, this may be the most logical and economic option. If you’re early in your career,though, it might not be a bad idea to move your practice to the suburbs, where private insurance will hold out the longest.
With the time take away form the US health-care system, consider keeping up your board certification(s) and volunteering your time through churches or out on the mission field (where often baseline health-care and education are almost non-existent ) where your work will be far more rewarding than working as a contractor for the US government. There’s lots less paperwork that route, as well!
The Union of the State
In high school, my US History teacher (may he rest in peace) wrote a phrase on the board. If we wrote that phrase at the top of any test or homework assignment, he gave us 10% extra credit. The phrase?
“Unions suck the life-blood out of America.”
Indeed they do! While they once served a purpose, unions now create unsustainable wages (driving business overseas), support anti-competitive entitlement-driven environments, and bankrupt businesses and governments.
Buried in the 1200 pages of HR3200 is a payoff provision to government unions that will encourage state medical professionals to join public employee unions. Such unions in California, New York and other states have broken budgets and created unsustainable cost conditions. When catastrophe hits, expect government-worker union-busting to hit with a vengeance. In referring to the current health-workers union in New York, the Weekly Standard notes:
The union-hospital alliance has been so successful in aligning itself with politicians, Democrat and Republican alike, that not only has 1199 been largely untouched by the downturn, but New York spends as much on Medicaid as California and Texas combined. And come boom or bust, hospital and health care employment in the state keeps growing.
Pushing unionizing to the budget-busting point – to where government-worker unions are crushed – may be an overall positive outcome, impossible to have achieved without O-Care.
The Twisted-Sister Approach
For as long as it is possible, probably the first thing to do after ObamaCare passes is to follow the lead of the Mayo Clinic (which earlier this year stopped taking new Medicare patients at some of its hospitals because it was losing so much money) and say “we’re not gonna take it anymore” for any form of ‘public plan’ insurance. Currently, 40% of US physicians and clinics do not accept public insurance. Flipping this number, overnight, to 60-70% will push the system toward failure even sooner.
For a short time, you can expect that those with pre-existing conditions will enter the private healthcare system and jack up the demand for services. During this time, there will likely be little need to take anyone in a public program (be it the “public option” or the “public co-op”).
With the already limited and dwindling supply of doctors – particularly PCP’s (who are the ‘gateway’ to specialists) – you can expect that insurance rates and reimbursement rates will skyrocket much more quickly than government rates. By keeping the supply-side pressure on, the crappiness of the public (or co-op) system – both in terms of wait-time and availability – will bottom out even sooner than it inevitably would otherwise. While this will likely lead the government into short-term and ill-advised price controls, these will also quickly fail into free-fall.
The Reverse Fast-Pass
If the number of doctors is low enough (i.e. if it significantly accelerates beyond the without-Obamacare predictions), there will not be a shortage of patients with insurance, and the governmental solutions will focus on increasing the supply, rather than regulating the mix of patients.
If, however, the government passes regulations that prevent PCP’s taking new patients from turning away ‘public plan’ patients (or to carry a specific mix), institute a system similar to Disney’s Fastpass, but in reverse. Using queuing theory, you create two virtual “lines” for patients, with the government minimum% hours for ‘public plan’ patients available on your calendar and the remaining hours on the calendar for private-plan patients. This will quickly generate “waiting line” horror stories for the media, with which to beat the ‘public plan’ to death.
School is Cool
If you’re an undergrad college student considering med school, and you want to be able someday to both a) feed your family; and b) see them on occasion, your best option is to pick an undergrad major that is accepted by med schools, but can be marketable in industry, apart from getting a medical degree. So – instead of majoring “pre-med”, consider Chemical Engineering, BioChem E, BioMed E, BioMed Tech, BioChemistry, Pharmacy, Genetics or some similar science major. Then, if ObamaCare passes, use your undergrad degree rather than becoming a government contractor.
If you’re already a med student scheduled to graduate in 2010 or 2011, and O-Care passes, you might consider holding off – get into a research program or re-specialize in Primary Care. The expected shortage in doctors will likely lead the government to offer med school loan-payoffs in return for a set period of working in rural or urban clinics that accept ‘public care’ patients. Without the weight of the med school bills, choose rural areas near smaller cities/towns, as when the government systems break down, the inner city is far from where you want to be (and your not being there will help it break down faster).
Where is the Church?
Again, as I’ve noted in the other articles, the church needs to be there to help pick up the pieces where the systems start breaking down. Look for retired nurses and doctors who would be willing to offer preventative care workshops and (depending on local laws/regulations) clinics.
When the healthcare system completely breaks down, it is likely that – even if only for government debt reasons – the only insurance available will be catastropic health insurance (like HSA’s) – rather than comprehensive insurance (like Medicare). This is as it should be (does your automobile insurance pay for your oil changes and flat tires, or just for accidents?). As such, the need for simple preventative care clinics will grow – because people will generally pay for these things out of pocket, which will drive down costs. The poor will need options, though, and the church could provide such infrastructure as could care for them.
_________
[Again realize, this is all exploratory in nature, and that I am not necessarily advocating this course of action at this point in time. My hope is to gain the wisdom of other voices to see if this avenue is a) fruitful; b) possible; and c) a better way forward than passivity. Some folks may not wish to comment, but can send me feedback via my Facebook mail account.]
85 Comments(+Add)
Chris – you sound like a sky-is-falling left behinder. As usual, and as Americans rather than believers, we react with much more passion and energy when it affects us rather than the crisis that exists this very day in many places around the world.
We are worried about long lines and coverage and price, while mothers in Darfur worry about food. And the wonderful risidual effects of issues like these elevate the level of hatred for men like President Obama (or Bush, take your pick).
Christianity remains captured by the culture and the nation in which it lives. In short, we are Babylonians with a sprinkling of Christianity. Oh please, please, Mr. Government, do what I want you to and I will stop complaining, at least about this issue.
It isn’t the American government that needs changing…it’s us.
(redundant alert)
Rick,
So it will a good thing when we are like the mothers in Darfur? And I don’t hate Obama (or Bush, take your pick). I hate their policies which make it increasingly difficult for me to do the work that I believe God has called me to do in ministering to others.
Contrast:
Yup – not all that much difference, somewhere between a Non Sequitur and a Straw-man Argument…
Depends on what spiritual frequency your antena is tuned to. I hope God grants your health care wish according to His will; whatever that is.
I think I know what God’s will is in the Darfur situation, although I could be wrong.
So you hate suffering and persecution? Americans recoil at inconvenience and the church has followed suit.
“
Pay no attention to the winds of political and governmental change. Our calling is Christ, in and out of season.
Apples and oranges, Rick.
The issues being discussed aren’t being”persecuted for righteousness’ sake“, they’re just simple and utter stupidity that degrades social conditions here AND downstream (like in Darfur) – and not targeting one particular religion…
Yes, we should not place our trust in the government, but neither should we ignore it and treat it as we would the weather…
Jesus called us to be “in the world but no of it”. Some toss this advice out and become “of the world”, while others (like yourself) seem to reject that we need be “in it” in the first place… (and yes, I’m using the actual definition of kosmos, not the Ingrid/Ken version).
The only thing missing from these chicken-little rants is the sandwich board.
The car insurance/Lindsay Lohan comparison is just a way to play extremes. Last time I checked my friends left out in the cold by having “pre-existing conditions” are struggling with things they were born with or caught by not a single act of loose living or recklessness. It’s worth it to carry the idoiots to if it means people who actually need insurance can get it.
This series is so out of place for this blog, and I find it hard to swallow from I blog I thought was about proving that not all Christians are hitched to wacky politics or doomsday philosophies.
The bottom line for me on the health care end of things is that if I meet one more friend with potential for the kingdom of God or our country again that settles for being a barista at Starkbucks just for the health insurance I’m going to scream. Sure that’s probably a better problem for the church to figure out than the government, but last time I checked churches are still fighting over guitars, projectors and Bible translations let alone moving forward to do their jobs.
Rick, “So you hate suffering and persecution? Americans recoil at inconvenience and the church has followed suit.”
As a matter of fact I do. I’m leaving on the second of November to work again against the institutional racism between the indigenous Guyami Indians in Panama and the Latinos. (I can’t begin to describe the discrimination that happens there by the general Latino population) I’m working with a successful retired doctor who is using his personal wealth to minister to the Indians there. He took over a mission that consisted of one church of about 30 Christians. Now there are over 20 churches and the main church runs in excess of 400. The church attendance will swell to 1,200 beginning this next month as coffee picking season begins.
But also, God is healing the divides between these people and Himself as the mission ministers to the physical and spiritual needs of these people.
If you’d like to see Christ bless the compassionate use of wealth and bless the ministry of His servants consider a trip to Panama!
And Rick,
Would you be in favor on intervention of the US Military in Darfur to eliminate the oppression there?
John – I love you, man. (though you do need to succumb to the dark side and get a FaceBook account like the rest of your family!)
Kevin,
I don’t happen to think the sky is falling or that ‘the end is nigh’, as I don’t see the rise and fall (and rise?) of America as any signal for the end of days.
On the contrary, I see a slew of ill-thought choices via abdication of freedoms to the government, and a (probably rather large) crash still to come. However, not being a Left-Behinder, I don’t see hunkering down and declaring that “the end is nigh” is an option. Rather, I see that a faster (and probably more catastrophic) crash is better than a prolonged nanny-state death spiral (like the UK is going through). A faster crash means a greater likelihood that people will have first-hand memories and eliminate the appropriate root causes (i.e. welfare-state mentality, over-regulation) rather than try a continuous series of half-measures that do the opposite.
________
“One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary.”
“The only difference between the welfare state and a totalitarian state is a matter of time…”
________________
Actually, it’s already been verified in a number of studies that examined an “individual mandate” that allows any escape clause (the only type of “individual mandate”, if there is one, that will make it out of congress).
Which is why setting the standard for insurance to “catastrophic insurance” instead of “comprehensive insurance” is affordable enough to accommodate pre-existing conditions, and the currently proposed solutions are unsustainable.
Health insurance is not a right, and breaking the existing system and bankrupting the country in order to move coverage from 90% to 94% is ludicrous. If it passes, it will fail. The question is not if, but when. The faster, and more fantastically catastrophic the better for all.
Again, I see no “doomsday” or wacky politics. Everything above under “The Coming Tsunami” is a matter of fact and public record, not doomsday prediction. I’d also note that most of it was conducted under an assumption of the way things are, before 0 decided to toss an additional 30-47 million into the system (which will only make things worse).
I’d also note that I’m probably not in the majority of writers in these particular opinions. Rather, I’m treading into territory that I expected to be disagreed with – in contradiction to the ODM notion that we are all emergent-types that march to the tune of left-wing American politics…
We tolerate a spectrum of opinions here – be they writers to the right or the left of me… I DO see this as a matter for the church to be interested in – and to be ready to fill the gap when the government fails. In fact, it will be to the advantage of the church, IMO, for the failure to be a spectacular one.
I’m not sure what the problem is with being a Starbucks barista – Zan was one for awhile. I also see no reason that it is awful that their motives are to supply health insurance. Working and receiving rewards – compensation and benefits (like healthcare) – is not evil. I see no reason it precludes one from being part of the kingdom of God – or how it squanders their potential.
Just like Global Warming, PC Multiculturalism and other similar tripe are the bailiwick of an affluent society with too much leisure time, so are fights over guitars and projectors and the KJV. When the crap hits the rotary oscillator, I expect that focus on superficialities of all stripes will wither and the church will do what needs to be done. It’s one of the reasons that people went into the wilderness to get back in tune with the voice of God – forcing perspective back into place.
#9 – No, but it is none of my concern because your question assumes I have an opinion as to American policy. I do not.
I am a pacifist, though.
#11- So you are willing to use the mother’s of Darfur as an example of suffering but unwilling to see the US do something to alleviate the problem? So the problem of suffering in Darfur isn’t something you see as being that problematic or do you have another solution?
Have you tried to engage the problem of Darfur? I admit that it is pretty difficult when engaging US politicians on the subject because there is no intrinsic American interest. Therefore, I consider it at indictment of us as a people in that we are only concern when our interests are involved.
And I can bet you haven’t had much time in labor in third world countries if you say you have no “opinion as to American policy.” American policy is a huge influence as to how we as Christians are viewed either for good or ill as we go about our work.
John, My best friend and I began a ministry fifteen years ago which sent money and missionaries to Africa. I never see any government as a solution.
My health forbids me any travel, but I correspond with those whom we support. I respect your view, however you fail to completely understand my perspective.
I have no opinion as to what any government does.
God can and does sovereignly use things to forward His kingdom that are not Christian (governments, people, organizations, etc.). Those are not what we are called to seek.
Chris l.,
thanks for taking the time to respond, one of those things I love about the blog is that you guys respond to what most people brush off.
I didn’t mean to imply you where talking about like a premillenial end of the world or anything, I meant chicken little and doomsday more in the broader sense, with you talking about the collapse of this and that and cycling into bondage and the like. I think it’s way too early to make those sort of statements, especially when there isn’t a consensues that this sort of healthcare direction we’re headed in is that bad of a thing.
Your correct that healthcare isn’t a right, police, fire and road work aren’t either. People should just hire their own security, train in firefighting techniques and buy a paver. What are they, poor and lazy? Sorry for the extreme, but the not a right holds little water with me when as a societ we’ve already teamed up to protect us from things bigger than ourselves and I don’t see why sickness should be the only one that stays as a luxury.
Ill agree that the healthcare proposals aren’t the only option for fixing our healthcare problem. But nobody is stepping up as is because it’s right now it’s a problem for the poor but not poor enough. My hope is that if it does go as you think it will, maybe then someone will step up to work on it. But right now it’s not effecting the rich and powerful yet
it is squandering potential to take a job outside your calling just for the health insurance. When church plants, Missional small buisnesses and the like don’t get started becuase of the health insurance factor, or being unable to entry level and work your way up because you can’t risk that long before you get high up enough for health insurance.
I think I’m with you on universal catastrophic coverage, I’d think that would be the best first step, but then we’d still have to deal with the high costs of the prevantative stuff, which would be a great place for the church to practice getting off their butt on this one.
I apologize if I jumped to quick with the wacky politics, I tend to have that reaction to Ayn Rand especially when I hear her quoted be Christians.
I guess that’s what it boils down to, I was suprised to hear a Christian on a blog I dig advocating that the rich take their ball and go home before something that can still go either way has hapened, and a whole bunch of left/right beef.
You’re now mistaking community goods and services with individual goods and services. Lee Doren does a pretty good job debunking this straw-man argument:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPq6_7AFsp4
Even so, these are local services, controlled by local boards (not the federal gov’t) and subject to local control (per the 10th Amendment).
Additionally, there is common payment, through taxation, for the infrastructure – but not the usage.
Roads are paid for by how much you drive on them (via gasoline taxes) – so payment is proportional to usage and the issue of “free riders” is highly mitigated by the cost structure in most states.
While the fire department is paid for from taxation, the city/county does not pick up the tab to rebuild your house.
While the police are paid from taxes, the city/county does not reimburse you for what thieves stole from your home.
Apples an oranges.
No emergency room can turn you away in a time of emergency, by law.
There are a number of proposals that could be immediately effective. Malpractice Tort Reform (let alone broad Tort Reform) could save $242 Billion/year. Allowing insurance to be sold across state lines, moving from fee-for-service to outcome-based-service, standardizing at “catastrophic” rather than “comprehensive”, changing HIPAA to allow better sharing of records across medical organizations (and upgrading technology and standards), among other free-market solutions, could drive affordability for all.
Dems (and RINO’s) don’t like these, because a) they’re in the hip-pocket of lawyers (the only group NOT asked to sacrifice in the current proposals); and b) their holy grail is Socialized Medicine, because of the power it centralizes in government.
Ah – I get the “Starbucks” analogy now. I was originally a theater major, but when I realized that I wouldn’t be able to support a wife and family in theater, I switched to engineering, and made music & theater an avocation (instead of a vocation) – which I use in missions I participate in.
I agree it would be utopia if we could all do what we believe we were called to do, along with receiving a living wage for doing so – but we’re not in utopia, and I can’t expect others to fund me to do what I’d most like to do if it is not something considered valuable enough to stand on its own.
However, I believe that – with a number of the fixes described above, among other free-market solutions – that things like healthcare would be more affordable with less government interference.
I agree on both counts – and malpractice is something that’s GOT to be tackled to allow this to happen. Malpractice is what prevents a good deal of “pro bono” work today, and drives up the cost of preventative medicine by requiring 25-50% tests than are medically necessary.
I strenuously disagree with Rand and other Libertarian thinkers (primarily athiest Libertarians) in the degree to which they take their philosophy. They tend to make the opposite mistake of Christians (who try to get the government to do the work of the church) by devaluing the value of Christianity to the individual, and altruism as an individual virtue, even if it is an evil when espoused by government.
Actually, I’ve espoused that we all take our ball and go home – for a short while – so that we’re still able to bring the ball back to the game once the rules have been renegotiated in an impartial and less-intrusive manner.
“once the rules have been renegotiated in an impartial and less-intrusive manner.”
And what do we do if that does not happen? I strenuously resist setting our strategy based upon what happens in the government/culture. It just may be that there will be more and more remarkable opportunities to present Christ in words and deeds during times like these.
And if President Obama is leading a move toward a more godless situation, then that only makes our light brighter. We are in a no lose situation and always have been since Pentecost, as long as we do what the Spirit came down to do.
Here is a great step in the right direction. I admire this man’s faith and sacrifice!
When the collapse comes, there won’t be “other peoples’ money” to spend, or anyone left to underwrite additional debt. Kind of hard to exercise an option that’s impossible to exercise…
You do realize that is a satirical work, Rick?
“You fail to completely understand my perspective.
I have no opinion as to what any government does.”
I guess I do fail to understand your perspective. I’m actually pretty confused by it. Who, in your perspective, is the arm of justice? How can you complain about the lack of food for mothers in Darfur and have no opinion of the policies which have created the problem? Are the policies good, bad or are you just indifferent?
Let me give you a real life example of what we deal with on a frequent basis in Panama. This is not a hypothetical. An eleven year old indigenous girl who attends our church (and we support in school) was impregnated by her 24 year old uncle who was living in the house. He was there, away from his wife and children, to work in the coffee harvest. Now in Panama it is illegal to have sex with anyone under 16. Our missionary/doctor examined the girl and then took her to the police station and subsequently had his suspicions confirmed by the local lab. (They won’t take his word for it.) After filing the police report on a Friday afternoon we were told that nothing could be done over the weekend. This is not true but because the police are Latino and the girl is an indigenous Guyami nothing happened. Not over the weekend. Not ever.
Where is justice? Are we to simply ignore the problem and allow this injustice to stand? We know that God will ultimately settle accounts with the wrong doers but is it impertinent of us to seek justice on the girl(s) behalf from the civil authorities? If the girl had been Latino the police would have been out after the offender so its not only a case of statutory rape but also blatant discrimination against the Indians.
If we ignore the issues, aren’t we sort of being a “be warmed and filled” kind of Christian?
Chris – For real? I was fooled! I still like it, though.
John, I only see redemption as the issue. I am an avowed a-nationalist. I do not vote or salute the flag etc., etc.. I understand the conundrum this presents, but it has allowed me to trust God and relieved me of political heartburn.
The church has fallen infinitely short in its commission, and before we spend energy manipulating the government we need to be about our Father’s business.
Sorry, but you have wandered into my wheelhouse.
Sorry Rick. But you have now abdicated all arguments in regard to the starving in Ethiopia or mothers in Darfur. I don’t know how you can consider redemption as the issue and be indifferent to the suffering in the world. Jesus refers to this in His “least of these” message. While Jesus’ purpose on earth was redemptive he was not oblivious to human suffering. James tells us that “pure and undefiled religion before God is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction and to keep oneself unspotted by the world.” While redemption is always to be and is my primary concern I don’t think I can call myself a Christian and ignore suffering and injustice.
I’m not concerned about manipulating the government. I only want them to be the arm of justice so they “don’t wield the sword for nothing” as Paul says. Government has a God appointed duty. But perhaps you disagree. Interesting that Paul “manipulated” the system
in asserting his Roman citizenship and demanding the local authorities send him to Rome.
“The church has fallen infinitely short of its commission”. Really? What is your measure? I hope you are dealing in hyperbole because these certainly aren’t the darkest days in church history. While the church in the US is not what it should be I wouldn’t indict the entire worldwide church as many positive things are happening around the world.
And while
Constructing your own perspectives and putting my name to it does not make it true, even if it makes you feel superior. I will leave you to your monologue.
So it really wasn’t much of a wheelhouse…..
What about Blockbuster video salesmen? Is it OK to work there since there are no churches banging down my door?
Chris L.,
I breaking with my tradition of disagreeing with at least one point in any post made here at CRN.info, I applaud you. I know that probably makes me a bad, bad man (or person), but I can’t help it. My overwhelming feeling about this healthcare ‘plan’ every since Bill and Hillary started flapping their gums about it several years ago was that if it happened, it would bankrupt this country. I think, from what I just finished reading here, it would bankrupt more than that.
This is something we should be deeply concerned about. Maybe there’s something to this Galt thing after all. Maybe we could all join Shane Claiborne’s medical co-op and grow vegetables in toilets, sew our own clothes, and make our own pottery.
Thanks.
jerry
In other words, “I’m losing so I’m out.”
Losing and winning.
So American, so carnal, but so predictable.
#27
Sure Rick. Call me an American Carnal. It won’t bother me at all. Doesn’t change the fact that when your arguments are exposed as contradictory to themselves or untenable you either say, “I know it’s contradictory and I don’t care” or you self-righteously say, “I’ll leave you to your monologue.”
One might think you are Ingrid with a penis.
and now for me to be guilty of what I am accused I’ll need to sign off and go to work.
When you squeeze a sponge whatever is inside comes out.
Without light there are no shadows, only darkness.
#31
Sort of like Mars Hill “Bible” Church.
#32..
ugh.
you know, John Chisham, i’m sure there are some churches in your own area that are just hellish and horrific.
why not bloom where you’re planted?
why not start with your “Jerusalem”?
i’d be more inclined to understand your sense of “integrity” when it comes to you and your ilk’s obsessions if you at least had a sense of the place God has put you.
isn’t there a s****y UCC church to beat up on in your town?
isn’t there some inherently compromised mega-church that, by virtue of it’s size and sunday morning creativity, has something wrong with it?
or, maybe, just maybe you could start a blog post series about your honest reflections about your own church’s failures.
even without you at the helm i’m sure it’s got its problems. your being there guarantees failures of leadership.
you’re no “apostle”….you’re no bishop….you’re no pope…so why not sack up like the protestant you ought to be and worry about your own local church…
#33 Thats nice, Nathan.
And while I am sure my church would have failures, if it were my church. Since the people in my church who are believers are following Christ as the head, there is no problem. If there were, there would be discipline, and we would be very thankful because the Lord disciplines those He loves.
I am only one of three under-shepherds/elders who have a concern for our people, so we hold out the Bible, and preach it expositionaly. There is no better wisdom for the Church than God’s holy word.
And in my town, there are Christians in every church fellowship, I am sure, under the headship of Christ. I fellowship personally with a few Godly pastors. As far as mega churches, we have none by definition, except for the Catholic church, which has about 4000 members. We hold up the scripture as the source of our teaching and the measuring rod (the canon of you will) of all teaching. If teachings fail in other churches, it is not by our standard, just the standard of God’s word.
Unfortunately, Rob Bell’s heretical teaching has floated its way into our little town and we hold up the same standard of God’s word to it and it has been found lacking, so we warn those who call themselves Christians about it.
I am no apostle, just a simple preacher of God’s Word. I am humbled by the responsibility God has given me in my town. Part of that responsibility is holding up God’s Word against any worldly wisdom that stands against it.
So thank you very much for your Christlike response to my ministry and to my little town. Feel free to hold our ministry up to scriptural scrutiny any time. We welcome Christ’s insights.
And while I am sure my church would have failures, if it were my church. Since the people in my church who are believers are following Christ as the head, there is no problem. If there were, there would be discipline, and we would be very thankful because the Lord disciplines those He loves.
lovely.
thanks for demonstrating your continued inability to understand a simple point.
how nice that a common figure of speech (i.e. “your church”) is conveniently used to make a point about Jesus being the head of church…nobody denies this…but it still is your church in a sense. because you help lead it.
unless Jesus is incarnating there in his actual post-resurrection physical person or you’re hearing voices, you know damn well what it means.
aren’t you the one who’s saying “words mean things” all the time.
yeeesh. you just can’t take your own medicine.
I am only one of three under-shepherds/elders who have a concern for our people, so we hold out the Bible, and preach it expositionaly. There is no better wisdom for the Church than God’s holy word.
even better. you have people complicit with you in your self-aggrandizing extra-congregational self-appointment to speak beyond your actual calling.
re: expositional preaching.
well praise you. the same thing is done in our congregation. how would you explain the radical difference? nevermind. i only have so much hair left…i’d rather not pull it out.
your whole spiel about standards, churches, etc.
great. do that. but what does your comments here have to do with your local ministry?
unless you encourage your followers to read here so you can demonstrate your totally amazing argumentation skills.
Feel free to hold our ministry up to scriptural scrutiny any time
no. i won’t.
unlike you, i understand that’s not my place.
that’s the lesson you just don’t seem to want to learn.
if it was my place, i’d be living in your town, protecting the people in my care from your brand of crazy. (maybe even happily sheep stealing too, like rescuing people from the matrix)
until that day comes (God forbid) i couldn’t give two dog dumps about your church.
it’s your responsibility…that’s my point….and trust me you’ll have a ton to answer for.
when’s the self-reflective, pastoral blog series coming, John Chisham?
#35
Its funny, all the while criticizing me for being discerning about other ministries, you do the same for mine. Such utter hypocrisy.
#36 The same time that Rob Bell’s is coming
I sure hope you have the right sail, Nathan.
You must think you’re talking to someone who’s actually qualified to lead a church.
#32-38: Can we move back on-topic?
actually, i’m not saying anything about your church. i just know the law of averages…
it has people in it.
people are sinful.
your church, therefore will have problems just like every other human organization.
that’s not being discerning about your church.
that’s common sense.
once again, for your sake, i’m expressly saying that you should probably spend more time discerning about yourself and your own church.
that’s the point.
i don’t know how else to say that again.
so…hypocrisy: fail
good try at doing the odm two step.
peace out, John Chisham.
oh, and john chisham…
don’t you worry about my sail.
it’s big and beautiful, woven from the unmerited favor of God through the work of Jesus Christ his son who paid the price for my sin and is restoring me to new life each day.
i’ve got smooth sailing…
but a weekender sailor like yourself might be unfamiliar…it’s clear you enjoy the jet ski of religion.
#41 Sail on, Nathan.
Sorry Chris, this topic was derailed before # 32. It is a fine article.
Our response as Christians is that we ought to care for those in our congregations who are hungry, poor, sick and in need. It is the way it should always be, regardless of the Government. Jesus is the answer, always has been. The government took over piece by piece the responsibility of the church through social security, welfare, medicare, medicaid, education etc. that was the responsibility of the individual and the family, and in cases of real need, the congregation (church). The government has progressively tried to take over individual responsibility so that we rely on the government more and more, and less on ourselves, our family, and our brothers and sisters in Christ.
I stand with Christ. There is nothing I can do to change the world or the world system. Only Christ can do that person by person, heart by heart.
Its a shame that the gospel didn’t arrive in the world until 1776.
#43
Fascinating. Bo knows as little about history as he does about being a Christian.
1776?
None of those things listed were available. They were all done through the individual family. We were pretty much an agrarian society until the industrial revolution.
But thats okay. Just like the emergents have tried to rewrite the Bible, you can go and rewrite history.
Actually PB, I was referring to history before your personal idol the United States existed. European states, including Germany, and Switzerland home of Calvin and Luther were united in state and church meaning, and this was especially true of Geneva, the government was taking care of needs long before your revised view of history was taking place.
I doubt its a coincidence that you primarily identify as a citizen of the US, rather than a citizen of the kingdom of God.
Lets just hope you don’t mistake someone out there for Osama Bin Ladin on your drive home so you don’t take the life of a bearer of the image of God in your zeal to serve your idol.
#45
Okay, Shane Hipps. Osama Bin Laden is a child of wrath, and God is angry with him every day. I hope he repents and trusts Christ before he dies, but if he does not, his sail will set into a lake of fire. He deserves Hell like I do, but I have been saved.
You are missing the point. I am a citizen of the kingdom of God first and foremost, and a citizen of the USof A second. This great country can save no one, only Christ can. I thank God I am a citizen of America now, but also a citizen of the kingdom of God now and for eternity.
I hope you are there also, beau.
Then act like it.
#47
Quit judging me, Bo
You should make sure you are a part of the Kingdom of God before you insult me.
The additions you’ve made to scripture don’t actually exclude anyone from the kingdom of God, they only bring you under judgment for trying to stand in the place of God.
Best be careful how you abuse the bride of Christ, husbands tend to get angry when someone uses their wife as a punching bag.
#49 No one is making any additions to scripture Bo; If you would open it up once in a while you might find the nuggets there like “God commands all men everywhere to repent” And “If you will not repent, you will all likewise perish” and “Bear fruit in keeping with repentance” Just to name a few.
Backatcha, Beau.
Goodness. I see we’ve dropped all pretenses of writing Christian work here and decided to just post rants straight from Glenn Beck’s tear-stained blackboard. Oh, the terror struck in the hearts of middle-class white boys by the big scary Obama! *shudder*
I follow Erick Erickson on Twitter for giggles, Chris. Want me to see if I can get his attention to find you a platform over at RedState or something?
I don’t know if the big 9/12/birther/”Let’s all go Galt from our Wal-Mart Greeter/middle management jobs!” websites have a diary system where users can contribute like they do on the large “pinko leftissssss” sites, probably because the average Freeper piece would probably include just a too few many racial slurs for public viewing, but we could see…surely your talents deserve a wider audience!
And comment #51 is a wonderful example of what happens when we take political sides as believers. It obscures the gospel and makes us appear as “right wing” Americans rather than humble followers of Him who knew no politics.
It is a false construct which deceives the world and creates a moral gospel which is a false gospel. And when the issue has money and convenience at its core it becomes especially spiritually deconstructive.
I wonder what the early believers would have thought if they were told that one day Christianity would include love of country, violence, hatred of sinners, political activism, and self righteous moral positioning?
And when the slightest “remove that button” persecution came our way, instead of believing the Beatitudes, we would complain like children tattling on each other.
“Look what they are doing to us Christians and not the Muslims, Mom!”
Funny you say that Evan, since this is but one post among many – and the vast majority are discussing various aspect of applied theology.
What? I was offering to help!
I’m good at The Internetz, so you know, I was offering a bailout, a little welfare, to help him advance in that world! Not a hand-out, a hand-up!
And Neil, I read the other pieces first.
It was interesting. I just hope all the Johns don’t go Galt, because srsly, I really like the shelves in my grocery stores shelved a certain way.
Rick:
It’s interesting to note that Ingrid only puts some of the story up and not all of it. The employee could have kept his job if he wore the company authorized pin. He refused, it seems he now has a lawyer and is going to sue Home Depot. What a profound witness…..
That fact was easy enough to find with a little bit more research. I posted that info on the CrossTalk blog, It’ll be interesting to see if it makes in the comment section.
Scotty – I find nothing wrong with wearing the pin (you know my views about nationalism though). What I found offensive is how Ingrid tried to make it a case of persecution and never mentioned how we must obey our employers. Also, you have seen much suffering and bloodshed, so you realize what a farce something like this is.
We are called to suffer with joy, not whine and complain at the slightest minor slight. Some of the martyrs went to be burned at the stake singing hymns.
This is what Scotty is referring.
(Scotty please be aware that even though I am a pacifist and a-nationalist, I will always admire and hold in high esteem men and women like you. I do read your blog and am moved by your stories)
BTW – Thanks, Scotty, I did google the news and got the “rest of the story”. I will guess your comment will find the circular file on CT, however I am going to update my post.
If you write something that truly challenges a position advocated by the CT blog…. your comment probably won’t see the light of day.
What are they so scared of?
M.G. – In the past, when confronted with infromation that revealed her post was significantly inaccurate, she replies that it was the news service (in which she depends) that was inaccurate and she has to take their word for any news items.
And then when someone like Miley Cyrus posts some provocative photos, Ingrid runs to justify herself by aying “See, see, I told you she was bad!!” She revels in the sin of others and is blind to her own.
We went back and forth a little on FJL recently because when I called for civility among the brethren on blog threads she called me a hypocrite because I have said things about her “work” on crosstalk. She made this statement in her comment directed at me:
” I know well that it’s easy to see hypocrisy in others but not in ourselves.”
If I had not read it I would not have believed it.
#56ff
I don’t even know from reading the story if this is a Christian young man, though they mentioned reading the Bible in the Miami herald Story.
Look, companies in America (who are not yet owned by the government) have the right to set dress codes, and to a certain degree limit types of speech. There are places that I work in my community that have made it very clear that my verbal Christian witness is not welcome in the workplace. I can certainly scream PERSECUTION! but I understand that it is their business, their laws. The first amendment does not protect my rights inside of a privately held business.
This is not government persecution (unless this lawsuit succeeds). The real persecution is coming, I believe, starting with the Hate Crimes legislation just signed. This will not impact many of you folks on this site, but if you preach or read the whole counsel of God, watch out.
Yea, real “Foxe’s Book of Martyrs” material.
It is statements like this that demonstrate your true character John.
I detest the moaning and groaning about so called “persecution” from many ODM bloggers. They love to trumpet their valiant stands for truth and “share” their harrowing experiences with vicious e-mail terrorsists and ferocious emergent warriors.
And when the dust settles, “whew!!”, they have saved the day again! The comment section then punctuates their self narratives with “Thank you for you stand for truth” and “Storm their castles!”
The moral to the story remains:
I stand for God’s Word, they hate it! (applause is appropriate at this juncture)
Pastorboy:
Ingrid posted the article as evidence of Christian persecution. So your point is moot.
Scotty – Your comment did not make it through the supply lines. But Ingrid’s comment is a must read. “God gave us a Bill of Rights” etc.. And Paul’s admition that he was a citizen of Rome is the proof text, while the Sermon on the mount means nothing.
And she confuses correction within the church with 1st ammendment rights. People like her are more American than they are Christian.
But she did post a comment that called for a boycott of Home Depot and said this as well:
Or Biblicall translated, “People who may need a Savior just like us” (Sorry to bring Jesus into this)
Pastorboy:
No you can’t, because it’s NOT!
HUH???
#66 Why am I not surprised!!
I would be interested in the Home Depot she goes to. Funny, I haven’t seen the type of people she discribes in the two Home Depots I have been to here in Palm Bay and Melbourne.
I am beginning to entertain the idea that morality based Christianity accompanied by nationalistic blending is just as dangerous as most things called emergent. (I feel a post coming on)
#67
Persecution comes in many forms and degrees. It can be as minor as a word spoken, a loss of a friend or a job, a smack on the face, or as major as death. We do not face major persecution as yet in this country, and losing your job at home depot is not persecution. It is their right to fire whom they will, which was my point.
It will become persecution by the government if this employee succeeds in his lawsuit against Home Depot; that is, it will stop HD from being able to have standards that any private business ought to be able to have.
#63
Jerry, I am just going on past statements of commenters on this site. If those things have changed, I heartily apologize. As for me, I will still preach the entire Bible, cover to cover.
#68 – That comment was not from her but approved by her since she deletes ones she doesn’t agree with. I haven’t seen that here in the Tampa area either. But of course what does that have to do with persecution?
The commenter also opines:
I love it. Who knew? Home depot was once Christ honoring and now they have given in to the secular humanist landslide. Frank Perreti has nothing on these people when it comes to fiction.
I went over to
CrossTalk and read the comments….WOW, just WOW!Well, Scotty, your comment was nothing but a hate filled rant which must be deleted. Consider this hypocrisy:
Ingrid believes this guy should be able to wear his pin because “God gave us freedom of speech”, but Scotty’s comment and others are deleted by this female warrior for free speech.
One more thing Rick, I also found what the contractor, who is a captialist and reaps the benefits of capitalism, demeaning the original owner of the store for being…..well, a capitalist!!
Funny, our local home depot is mostly 50-something men who are working there as a second job in order to support their families.
I noticed that as well. Ingrid’s comment along with the other comment are both hilarious and profoundly unchristian. Peter and the other apsotels were beaten and left rejoicing that “they were counted worthy to suffer for His name”.
And we scream about some innocuous button and hire an attorney.
Really, you guys’ rants against Ingrid are no better and not an example of the higher calling in Christ Jesus.
It is against the “teachings” of Ingrid, and her unchristian rants provide an opportunity to teach Biblical Christianity against a backdrop of another kind of emerging Christianity.
I do not know Ingrid personally.
And what removes credibility from guys like you, PB, is that when Ingrid exhibits obviously unbiblical views and verbiage, you refuse to correct and address that. Unless you are in full agreement with her.
And yet, John Chisham, the list of those you “rant” against is larger than the wrath you claim God has against those you disagree with.
You should stop your ranting, John, as is befitting your “higher calling in Christ Jesus.”
and the wheels on the bus go round and round…
#78
What I have posted on the site here and at CTB are my opinions about this.
I think it is anti-Christian not to submit to your boss and work hard when you are at work for Him/Her. It is a private company- they can do what they want.
Agreed. I disagreed with Paggit’s threat of police action, and I may have disagreed with your method, however I was glad to see you were willing to go to jail without complaining and threatening a lawsuit.
PB – Your comment at CT was much more balanced.
OUCH!! And Pastorboy gets spanked!
Ya gotta love it. As you can see I command an aura around the blog world.
signed,
The Ordained Baptist Minister
alias Rick F.
Friend of Pastor Boy
PB – In the future, please understand Mrs. Schlueter is rarely if ever wrong. Moaning about political, governmental, and personal persecution is her area of expertise.
BTW – Am I wrong for feeling a sense of creative succinctness when I came up with “worthless political whinebag”?