Hi all,
To piggy-back on Jerry’s post about ‘burning books for Jesus’, I came across an article today which was given to me by a friend of mine (who is quoted from in the article, and her father is the pastor in question). I was wondering what you all might think of the position taken in the article, and why?
I personally take a position based on 1 Cor.8, and that it’s a matter of conscience, not obedience, lest Paul be mistaken for not vehemently condemning the Christians eating food sacrificed to false gods.
What do you think?
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83 Comments(+Add)
I think it unwise for churches to host haunted houses and the such… but telling Christians not to let their kids trick-or-treat because of the alleged origin of hundreds, maybe thousands of years ago is going too far.
If you want to abstain – fine.
But if you tell me I have to based on some former origin, I’ll ask ya what day it is? Chances are you will respond with a name that has cultic roots as well.
Well, I know these people personally, and know that they celebrate Christmas, which if you understand the origins of it makes it all the weirder that they come down so harshly on Halloween…
i probably am more critical of people who abstain from Halloween…
not for the abstinence, but because i’ve yet to meet a person who abstains who doesn’t judge people who don’t…
Got it, Nathan. So you judge those who don’t celebrate Halloween because they judge those who do celebrate it. Makes sense to me. Judgement’s OK for you, but not the ones who don’t celebrate Halloween—because they judge others, unlike you. ROFL.
#2.
That’s exactly what I was wondering about. How do they handle Christmas Eve, which you answered. Not only that, but the guys history is a little inaccurate. Halloween as we currently have it is a reaction to what he was talking about.
Good for them. I mean that. My wife and I used to abstain but then I started thinking about how inconsistent we were by holding that position. So now we go out. The kids can only dress as something nice and we have fun.
I like what you said a lot Joe. I had a long conversation with them at Bible Study tonight and they seem to understand the “we’re both right, don’t look down on each other” position of Romans 14 and 1 Cor. 8.
Joe,
I think it is muchadoaboutnothing. I hear these kinds of stories every year at this time.
Frankly, I think Christians ought to be more concerned about celebrating x-mas than they are about celebrating all hallows eve.
my .01 (marked down for tax purposes)
jerry
If it makes you feel all spiritual and stuff, then don’t go and make sure you let the world know you do not go. And for those who do go this warning:
Only worship Satan every other house.
* Christmas is much more pagan than Halloween, and the hedonism that it generates outdistances all the Halloween candy!
Comment #4 – I am judging those who judge those who judge those who judge others who do not go. If it becomes necessary I will add as many “those who judge” phrases to accommodate any expansion.
This year I am going as President Obama and I will be simultaneously giving out bailout candy while protesting the KKK.
@ Cash,
yep.
exactly.
i don’t have a problem with people and their personal taboos. i respect their choice to live by said taboos.
i do have a problem when those people expect me to live by the convictions that are solely theirs.
i don’t judge the choice to not celebrate halloween.
not celebrating it doesn’t affect me or anyone else.
people are free to stay home, have a “harvest party” at their church, or whatever.
no problem there.
but when your choices start to be pushed on others as a litmus test of christian faithfulness…well, then i’m happy to judge that specific move and the arguments that support it. that’s called “critique” and “argumentation”.
it’s not a referendum on their value as human beings or the value of their personal choice to not celebrate halloween.
but if for youall judging is the same…
then, yeah, i’m judging unapologetically.
oh, yeah…
Cash, Happy Halloween.
Happy Reformation Day What would you post on the church doors today?
You know there are a lot of good historians that believe Luther didn’t actually post anything on anything.
Jews welcome.
Depends on the church.
#14
Just choose an apostate church, or one heading that way, and write some theses. Like, I would post on Joe’s Church door: (Mars Hill, MI)
1. The Bricks of Doctrine found in the Bible are important.
2. The Holy Spirit does not Blow every sail; only the sails built by the Father and purchased by Jesus Christ at the cross.
3. The preaching of the cross is necessary; performance art is not.
4. Jesus said to go into all the world and PREACH the Gospel; and all things HE commanded; not about creativity and suffering.
*Make sure your truth is built upon love.
*God resists the proud.
* Sinners only.
Pastorboy,
You have the ability to suck the life and joy out of just about any conversation like no one else I know!
One comment though – I love the irony of you attacking a church for it’s emphasis on creativity… in the name of one who is very often referred to by one of his attributes – Creator.
Yeah, cause they make great projectiles…
I plan to throw Bricks of Doctrine at any sinful trick or treaters that dare walk in front of my house tonight.
Without the preaching of the cross it may be an ecclesia, but it is not Christian.
#18
I will be giving candy door to door, as well as to those who come to my door. They will also get Gospel tracts. While you are throwing bricks, my family by the grace of God will reach at least one person tonight, hopefully more! We will plant at least 400 seeds, anyway….
(insert sucking sound)
To me Hallloween is a no-brainer.
“Do not participate in the deeds of darkness,”
Vampires, ghosts, gobblens, witches, werewolves, blood, gore, torture, death, pain, violence, pirates
sprinkled with a few benign fairy princesses and cutesy critters and such.
However, without controversy it’s heavy on the deeds of darkness and as such inappropriate behavior for Christians. Not preference, firm biblical principle.
He dared judge! To the stake with him!
I forget. On the litmus test is blue acid or basic?
Happy Reformation Day!
On reformation day, we go door to door handing out the good news with some candy. If they are not home, we nail it to the door!
no…
still preference/personal conviction.
it’s how you choose to apply and live out “not participating in the deeds of darkness”.
letting kids play, dress up as superheroes and eat some candy, while the adults connect with each other, their neighbors, etc.
so…maybe informed by biblical principles…but not a universal or absolute.
i don’t see much “darkness” when it comes to how halloween is celebrated in our house and community.
it may be different for you…
i eat idol meat…you don’t…
The Christmas Argument is a deflection. Each should be judged on its own merits. Both may be inappropriate or not. The Christian world is full of hipocrites. Just becasue certain individuals do not practice a consistent world view does not invalidate the merits of a particular action.
You say it’s bad to smoke cigarettes yet you smoke cigars does not mean it’s OK to smoke cigarettes. Perhaps the cigar smoker should stop smoking cigars, but his hipocricy does not invalidate the dangers of cigarette smoking.
This why I do not participate in the pagan names of the days of the week… they are dedicated to deeds of darkness.
Sunday – the first day of the week dedicated to the worship of the primary celestial body…
Monday – the second day of the week, dedicated to the worship of the secondary celestial body, the moon
Tuesday – the day dedicated to the Norse god of war and law – Tyr.
Wednesday – the day dedicated to Woden or …
Is it any coincidence that all these have the suffice “day” – which is the same as “dei” – that is “god”?
So when you say Thursday, for example you are once again sharing in the pagan ritual of acknowledging that that day is dedicated to “Thors dei – the god Thor…
John,
I agree that Christians should avoid the darkness of Halloween. We should not glory in violence, make light of demons, etc…
That said, I have no doubt that God does not care one way or the other a follower of his let’s their kid dress like a super-hero and ask the neighbors for candy.
Nathan,
Yes.
I’ll pretty much plant a flag on this one.
But it’s not a litmus test for salvation or anything, maybe just discernment.
Nathan,
It makes perfect sense that those who believe they should abstain think that all should… since their abstinence is based on an application of a biblical conviction.
Those who think the Bible prohibits alcohol would say the same thing – for example.
John,
Why then is it participating in darkness to allow kids to go from house to house for candy… but using the names of the week – which are every bit as pagan-rooted – acceptable?
Neil,
That is a ridiculous argument. The days of the week, no matter what their linguistic origin, are just that – names, which use thereof, in no way connotes participation or recognition of the pagan deity behind them. (Although I have been known to worship Friday, of which I have sense repented.)
However, perhaps we should change the days of the week. I’ll start. I propose we call Friday, Fruehday.
One man’s ridiculous argument is another man’s conviction rooted in biblical truth.
Of course my argument is ridiculous – as ridiculous as I think yours is.
HT – to ya on “Freuhday” – that is brilliant!
Neil,
#30. Because said participation is not a coincidence when the event is nationally recognized.
We don’t turn our lights out and ignore our community. Our house is one of the most popular on the street. We hand out stuffed animals with an adoption theme which have a tag attached about being adopted into God’s family.
We explained our reasoning to our son when a little child and explained that sometimes being a Christian means you have to sacrifice sensual pleasure sometimes and be different from society sometimes. He also got a kick when handing out the gifts to our visitors and learned it is better to give than receive. I seem to remember reading that somewhere.
So I don’t think he is any worse for the wear for having not participated.
Neil,
Hey, I have dibs on ridiculous and in what way is my argument ridiculous? I haven’t even thoroughly presented it, so how do you know?
I guess the question is a matter of where to draw the line… I draw it between what I see as an innocuous participation in a cultural tradition of getting candy… or allowing kids to dress up for a party.
If it took place in May would it be acceptable?
Clearly the vast majority of activities surround Halloween have nothing to do with anything demonic, or pagan, etc…
Initial judgment based on data provided so far… if additional data changes things – I will let ya know.
As far as I can tell, particularly from comment you would oppose anything that looks like participation – since you mention fairies and the like…
Although I suppose and argument could be made against them as well.
Except for the human sacrifices and all that practicing satanists still practice…
Other than that…
This sounds great.
Yet, by doing so you are still participating in the nationally recognized event. Even if you have given it a different spin.
I have no issue with your choices. Basing them on the verse you quoted is a misapplication of that verse – in my estimation. By your own description you admit participation.
Seriously Pastorboy… I said VAST MAJORITY…
Which implies exceptions.
As far as I can tell use of the days of the week are nationally recognized as well.
What if some satanic groups started offering human sacrifices on Christmas or Thanksgiving? Would Christians quit celebrating these holidays as well?
In America, the tradition of celebrating the holiday was probably started by Irish Catholics in observance of All Saints Day or All Hallow’s Eve, as noted by Ben Witherington here.
So I probably wouldn’t be so keen on my child dressing up as Satan or a demon (which is actually kind of ironic anyway, because I don’t think Satan actually would look so overtly evil) to go trick or treating, but I don’t have any more problem with trick or treating than I do having a big meal and watching football on Thanksgiving. There both simply cultural observances that are rather neutral.
The fact is you can forbid your kids from trick or treating or whatever, but it doesn’t do anything to instill Godly values in them.
I think the difference there would be one of origin verses co-opting. There is little argument that a lot of the traditions of Halloween have origins in pagan ritual and the like.
Let me say that I find celebrating and observing Reformation Day as unbiblical.
Well, the same can be said for Christmas as well. Christmas trees are a totally pagan invention. Trick or treating is no more pagan than going caroling. Walking around singing carols probably originated from groups of drunken revelers walking around town hoping to be rewarded with food or drink for their songs.
So Christians have taken these tradition and adjusted it and called it their own. I don’t see a big difference in Halloween other than the decorations tend to emphasize things like mummies, bats, and whatnot.
Phil,
I think there is a difference between the two… but I would also say that I cannot understand why someone would say a Christian should have noting to due with Halloween, and yet, participate in the trappings of Christmas.
There are not many things that are as pagan as saluting the flag and pledging allegiance to a pagan nation.
Well maybe there is a difference in degrees of pagan influence / origin, but really, I don’t see what difference that should make if that’s the argument for not doing the one.
I guess it would be one thing if my neighbor were sacrificing cats this evening and I was joining in, but to my knowledge, all the neighborhood cats are safe. A good portion of my neighbors have little kids, and I imagine they will participate in trick or treat. I fail to see what I am standing for or against if I don’t give candy (except maybe against cavities). Does it “let my light shine”?
Phil,
Agreed.
Also, I just saw this. It’s kind of funny that many who are advocating celebrating Reformation Day but not Halloween, agree with the RCC about the latter…
The mothers in Darfur are committed to seeing Halloween wiped out. They also are going to drink 2 ounces more of water today to honor Reformation Day.
Pat Robertson warns believers that “candy sold during this season has been dedicated and prayed over by witches.”
Can’t these same witches pray over the food in grocery stores? This is the hype that is more fundraising than truth. Does candy taste different when witches pray over it?
“just names”…
well, re: halloween, it’s just a costume and some candy…
things have meaning not merely in themselves, but also in their intent/context.
dressing like a ladybug and asking for candy is not deeds of darkness.
allowing my 2 year old to have fun like that is not a failure of discernment.
besides people digging up selective history to reject certain cultural observances over others, how many average americans even put on a vampire costume and come back with a bag full of candy and a heart full of relief that the “real vampires” left them alone?
how may watch the clock and after it strikes midnight breath a little easier that the thin veil between dead and living is thickening after yet another Samhain?
We are monotheists and not shamans…
there is no magic.
i am bought with the blood of Christ. no weapon formed against me shall prosper…and at the end of the day, Halloween ain’t no weapon.
halloween is mostly celebrated by adults now too.
people just wanna dress up, let their hair down and have some fun.
if “origins” or “rare super-minority celebration of origins” are a litmus test…well…as has been pointed out…
there goes the whole Christian calendar.
i’m off to eat idol meat with my daughters and neighbors. washed down with a lovely pumpkin porter craft brew.
Witches have prayed over this blog.
@54…
leave Ingrid out of this…
ooops…sorry…too easy.
Our local coven makes dynamite brownies!
Happy “Halloween/Harvest Party/Not Observed” everyone! Enjoy your nights…
Nathan #55 is a wicked comment which reveals the heart of this blog, since none of the people rejected it…
A pig sty by any other name still is full of crap.
#56 Do they blow your teeth out?
PB,
You recently called emergent churches covens. Covens are the gatherings of witches.
Were you being serious? Do you really believe that Rob Bell and Doug Pagitt claim to follow Christ publicly, but then close their doors and fall on their faces before Lucifer?
Or were you being facetious and snarky?
In any event, it seems you are either guilty of defamation or hypocrisy.
I would call their emergent cohorts covens, because, after all, they are a far more pagan than a Christian assembly. Their actions and their words speak louder than the popular version of what they are.
Look, if you practice active paganism (Yoga, contemplation, breathing exercises, mind-emptying)
and teach the doctrines of demons, the name fits. Either way, it is not a church, at least not a Christian one.
I stand by that statement. I doubt nathan’s statement and the tacit agreement with it here is defensible.
PB,
If we’re going to be posting definitions for technical justification, rather than just apologizing, I would submit:
Now – was Nathan out of line? Yes. Were your comments (along with your continuing libel regarding implied “paganism” of other believers) out of line, as well?
Yes.
Perhaps a little bit more charity and a little bit less snarkiness would be in order…
FYI – For the remainder of your comment, I would just refer you to Paragraph 5.
(Somehow I have a feeling this will become a frequently used link…)
#61
You know all too well Nathan did not mean definition 4.
I stand by my statement. Many emergents, including Doug Pagitt and his Solomons porch practice Paganism. Yoga by definition is Paganism. It is like calling this Site PPP- it is the same old site with a nice makeover.
Rob Bell may have a narrative theology which says nice things, But Shane Hipps is a worse Universalist than Bell is, stating that any sail can catch the wind of the Spirit. By definition, this is apostasy at the least, heresy at the worst.
These are two examples among many. It is not Christianity. I can only judge actions and words, I know. But according to those, not close. So FAIL.
Hey PB, if this website is evil, why do you take part in the deeds of darkness? It’s not like you bring anything to the table, and despite your constant insulting remarks towards us here, you still seem to stick around. Some might conclude it’s because you ultimately find yourself a part of this community, and well, someone could nab you with some GBA logic. You confuse me.
Respects,
Joe
And now you have yet another example of why “Pastor” John Chisham is unqualified to pastor anything.
He can’t even correctly interpret a comment by a present day commenter that he has 1st hand experience with. How in the world can he be counted on to correctly interpret words written by men long dead who wrote in different languages, to a different culture?
#64 The website is not ontologically evil. Having Rick Freuh around sanctifies it most days.
#65 Your mockery of me Bo is indication that, by your actions, that you do not have the love of God.
Because no one commented within your set time on a Sunday afternoon?
You are correct, Nathan’s comment was out of line in that it took swipe at Ingrid that does not offer her the respect she is due as a sister in Christ.
Your calling us pigs since no one did so fat enough for you shows your lack of grace.
Lighten up.
…and for record, PB, given those four definitions for a witch, I would have assumed Nathan meant #4 as well.
Do you really think he meant to say she thinks she possess magical powers?
She possesses supernatural powers in terms of annoying me!
I think both of you need to take some time off.
Bo, you have no right to call Pastorboy unqualified to pastor…
Pastor, you have no room to accuse someone else of lacking God’s love.
70
I believe I said that his actions towards me demonstrate a lack of God’s love.
At least thats what I meant to indicate.
Another note:
There was too much rain to burn the books, so they had to have a cutting and tearing party. It does not sound quite as intimidating that way.
PB, we’ve seen you mock so many others, so many times. If Bo does not have the love of God, then what do you have to say for yourself? What can any of us say if we’re ‘one and out’ in terms of having God’s love? I think you’re misapplying Scripture at best, and at worst you are being unbelievably hypocritical. Every other comment you post seems like it’s a mocking attack on someone. Am I wrong?
Nathan’s comment was just humorous, nothing else. Relax, guys.
John is completely qualified as a pastor, and he probably is a good one. He may have a harsh Lutherian edge to him, but he seems passionate about the gospel. Having a harshness in comment threads cannot give enough information to reject anyone from ordained ministry.
#73
You are wrong.
I do not go after people like Bo has gone after me from a comment perspective.
Now, I have gone after the theology of Jones, Bell, Pagitt, McClaren, et.al, but it is not personal.
But Bo can have his opinion, I couldn’t be his Pastor, clearly, so in his eyes I am unqualified. Fine. Don’t come to our church then. Find another one.
#75
I have no idea what a luthernian edge is, but it sounds cool
I don’t believe you, and I don’t think anyone else does either. Proof is in the vanilla pudding (my favorite), friend.
well, considering John Chisham’s constant need to roll out the dictionary to “prove” his point…
the joke was along the lines of definition #4….
and if i wanted to be hard nosed tool about it…i guess I could just take his take and say, by that definition “I stand by my comment”…
but then again, if I did that, then I’d really be getting into the real sty that is the bizarro world of PB.
i also wrote, “too easy”…clearly indicating a joke.
was it a swipe?
yep.
would someone please just call me an online cyber rapist and we can get to “hysteria” without wasting any time?
thanks.
peace out.
Ingridis not a witch. But she is a disobedient woman who exhibits a tone and a self righteousness that is completely unchristian and unorthodox in her anti-complementarian behavior.
Other than that, she’s OK.
i notice PB hasn’t answered on if he thinks i believe that woman has “magical powers”…
awesome.
Nathan,
Please, let it drop…
will do…