everyone has a degree of disordered love for God that rises out of wrong reasons…even “the elect”/committed believers, etc. etc.

humans can’t escape it.

so there’s no point belaboring it.

unless you want to have something else to sniff at…

God knows hearts, God will do the separating…

sheeesh.

my contention is that we can’t make a sweeping generalization about people just because some people loved for the wrong reasons.

thanks…it has nothing to do with a particular scripture passage about particular people…

i hope this helps you actually understand what i’m getting at.

*Rob Bell was not mentioned in this post

Phil: Where are you getting your population numbers?

Forgot how detail oriented you are Phil But Jesus traveled outside of Jerusalem. Anyways, my point was that only a very small fraction of people were committed to Christ. The masses enjoyed him, liked the fireworks and the food, but once the show was over went home. That’s the same today to a large extent.

But his point it, much of what they are attracted to in Jesus IS biblical, is a true impression of Jesus.

Which one? The one who tells men that it’s not good enough just to give mental assent to Him, but commands that “if any man be my disciple, he must deny himself, take up his cross and follow me”? Or the one who says you need to “eat my flesh and drink my blood”?

My guess is they like a Jesus of their own making. A cobbled together caricature they’ve gleaned from external observation.

Regarding “They Like Jesus But Not the Church” …So, I don’t believe that phrase at all.

Kimball addresses that issue in the book. He says most like a Pop Culture Jesus. There are deficiencies to be sure – like the whole being God thing…

But his point it, much of what they are attracted to in Jesus IS biblical, is a true impression of Jesus.

David Wilkerson

But 500? That’s less than 1% fraction of people who heard him speak. But the majority of people, again like today, were fickle.

Where are you getting your population numbers? 500 would 1% of 50,000. Historians estimate that the population of Jerusalem, the population center in the region where Christ ministered was about 80,000. During festivals, it may have swelled up to 250,000. But even if every single one of those people heard Christ speak, which they didn’t, your 1% number doesn’t make sense. Also, Jesus spent a large part of His time on earth ministering in much less populated areas. We simply don’t know what the lasting impact of his visits in many of these areas were.

The remarkable thing isn’t that so few people followed Jesus. It was that enough people were following Him in less than 100 years after His death and resurrection, that they were seen as a potential threat to the Empire.

I do believe Jesus said some things to “weed out” some people, but I believe had to do more with His intentions to enter Jerusalem without a huge hoard of followers who potentially cause problems in the way instigating riots or whatnot.

People were drawn to Christ, and I believe He was drawn to people. The whole numbers thing is sort of a moot point.

How do you reconcile this statement with Matthew 5:16?

In fact, how do you reconcile anything ODMs do with Matthew 5:16?

Regarding “They Like Jesus But Not the Church” there was actually a really interesting study done recently (The Gospel for iGens)… basically, people love the caricature that they’ve built of Jesus. Jesus can be anyone you want him to be if you haven’t read the gospel or have only been exposed to a slanted version (ie: prosperity, Osteen, etc).

So, I don’t believe that phrase at all.

We need to understand that fundamentally people haven’t changed. People love those who are no longer around and Jesus was clear on this.

I find this fact astounding: when Moses was leading the people of Israel they were rebellious, disobedient, idolatrous, mistrusting and so on. Several times they wanted to stone him, turn their backs on him and God. They tried to usurp his authority.

Fast forward to Jesus’ day and you see a group of people who had basically idolized Moses. But if they had been around him back in the day, they would have done the same thing. But now he’s dead and can’t tell us what to do! Let’s lift him up.

Just like an art piece that goes up in value after the artist dies.

Today, every Sunday we quote Paul and seem to lift him up. But why was he rejected by his own churches (ie: Corinth)? Why did no one stand with him? Why did he end up saying that only Luke is with him? He died with only a few around him.

So when people say they Love Jesus, Not the Church, they’re essentially saying “We love a god we’ve created in our minds that doesn’t intrude on our day to day.”

The core of man sits in darkness. John 3: “men loved darkness rather than light.”