if indeed he said he would allow people to be in hell, then he is not thwarted if that comes to pass.

Neil,

First, there is reason to question whether God really said God would allow people to be in hell for all eternity. That is a matter of interpretation. I don’t think Scripture is nearly as clear as you seem to think it is on this matter.

Second, it is a problem if God desires that all be saved and none to perish and yet suggest that God will not get what God desires. I believe God will get all that God desires.

God has imprisoned ALL in disobedience so that God might have mercy on ALL.

I do not believe Jesus came, lived, died and rose again just to give a lucky handful the opportunity or potential to go to heaven. I think his life, death and resurrection far exceeded what you and others here are willing to allow.

To suggest there are souls in hell for all eternity is to suggest God will be thwarted by Hades or our human will, ultimately.

Or it means that God granted His creation the ability to accept or reject His love, so that their love would be of their own choosing, and not simply an automaton. Since the choice was given by Him, and within His will, His will is neither thwarted by death/Hades, nor by human will.

I am asking a question which will help you clarify your position: Is your position is that we should hope (desire) that all would be saved, but that we should not hope (expect) it to be so? Or, is it that we should hope (expect) that all will be saved?

the question is, does god always get everything he wants, or does he allow for things to happen contrary to his desire?

Neil,

That’s not even really the question, because the issue is two competing desires: 1) That all men would be saved; and 2) That all men would, of their own free will, accept Him. Because He has given men free will, He has made #2 possible, while making #1 conditional upon #2. The cop out is to concoct a fairy tale that you can change your mind after you’ve died.

To suggest there are souls in hell for all eternity is to suggest God will be thwarted by Hades or our human will, ultimately.

with this i disagree.

i’d say it’s only thwarting if god could not have had it otherwise… thwarting implies failure.

going back the n.t. wright – he suggestion that part and parcel of god’s righteousness is the fact that he will do what he says.

if indeed he said he would allow people to be in hell, then he is not thwarted if that comes to pass.

the question is, does god always get everything he wants, or does he allow for things to happen contrary to his desire?

The question goes deeper than that, Neil. While we can say with confidence that at present not all things are going the way God “desires,” it will not always be the case. There will come a day when “the first things pass away” and a NEW heaven and earth is made. So the question is, will God not have what God desires for ALL eternity? To suggest there are souls in hell for all eternity is to suggest God will be thwarted by Hades or our human will, ultimately.

I stand by every word i said in 463 and 464. Chris L, you continue to mischaracterize me and my position. So be it.

I believe Chad said that if some sinners went to hell than man’s desire trumps God’s.

i believe he and others have said similar things. and in a sense it is true.

the question is, does god always get everything he wants, or does he allow for things to happen contrary to his desire?

the difference lies in the opportunity to get on that road, or switch roads – to extend the metaphor.

i, most here, and the historical faith see plenty of opportunities to switch roads while one is alive. but upon death, the choice of road is set and has eternal consequences.

at this point the issue of those who do not even know there is a road is left out of the argument.

to date, none of the biblical or philosophical arguments for the hope of switching roads after death are convincing.

as much as i like the idea emotionally and philosophically, i cannot do to the text what must be done to allow for it biblically.

all that said – i suggest we refrain from applying the all roads lead metaphor to chad since there are nuanced differences and he clearly does not like it.