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	<title>Comments on: Thought for the Day #42</title>
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	<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/12/17/thought-for-the-day-42/</link>
	<description>Engaging the depths of God and life in the Kingdom</description>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/12/17/thought-for-the-day-42/comment-page-1/#comment-108387</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:44:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/12/17/thought-for-the-day-42/#comment-108387</guid>
		<description>Joe, I want to…I really do. Or maybe I don’t.

That&#039;s why it is an every minute type of thing. 
&quot;Sometimes, you have to adjust your sails, tie down your lines and just face the wind.&quot;
~White Squall</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe, I want to…I really do. Or maybe I don’t.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why it is an every minute type of thing.<br />
&#8220;Sometimes, you have to adjust your sails, tie down your lines and just face the wind.&#8221;<br />
~White Squall</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/12/17/thought-for-the-day-42/comment-page-1/#comment-108384</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:38:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/12/17/thought-for-the-day-42/#comment-108384</guid>
		<description>Unforgiveness is a terrible thing. 

Joe, I want to...I really do. Or maybe I don&#039;t.

jerry</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unforgiveness is a terrible thing. </p>
<p>Joe, I want to&#8230;I really do. Or maybe I don&#8217;t.</p>
<p>jerry</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Miller</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/12/17/thought-for-the-day-42/comment-page-1/#comment-108382</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:31:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/12/17/thought-for-the-day-42/#comment-108382</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Do you think we should expect an apology?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I guess because of the fact that we&#039;re talking about dealing with other Christians, on one level it seems like we should expect it.  It&#039;s not that I expect it, in the sense that I&#039;m owed, but I expect it because apologizing to those we offend should be the thing we do.  Unfortunately, I&#039;ve found that when it comes to church politics, people apologizing to pastors they have wronged or vice versa is very rare.

I guess that&#039;s why when it comes to forgiveness, we have to be proactive, even if we don&#039;t receive an apology.  I actually was just talking about this about Bible study the other week.  When Jesus tells Peter he must forgive someone who wrongs him &quot;seventy times seven&quot; times, He is actually using the exact phrase that Lamech uses in Genesis 4:24:
&lt;blockquote&gt; 23 Lamech said to his wives,
       &quot;Adah and Zillah, listen to me;
       wives of Lamech, hear my words.
       I have killed [a] a man for wounding me,
       a young man for injuring me.

 24 If Cain is avenged seven times,
       then Lamech seventy-seven times.&quot;*

     * &lt;em&gt;this could be translated seventy-seven or seventy times seven&lt;/em&gt; &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Jesus is making a point by referencing this phrase.  Lamech uses of &quot;seventy times seven&quot; means he will exact perfect revenge if someone wrongs him, and he we aggressively pursue it.  Jesus is saying just as Lamech vowed to hunt down an exact revenge on those who wronged him, we should hunt down and aggressively forgive those who have wronged us.  It&#039;s not just passive forgiveness that we need to be involved in.

I still think even if we do go out of our way to forgive those who&#039;ve wronged us, though, there are people who simply will not apologize.  At that point, if our conscience is clear, I believe it may be best to let them be, and not let them hurt us any longer.

Of course, all of this is a lot easier said than done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Do you think we should expect an apology?</p></blockquote>
<p>I guess because of the fact that we&#8217;re talking about dealing with other Christians, on one level it seems like we should expect it.  It&#8217;s not that I expect it, in the sense that I&#8217;m owed, but I expect it because apologizing to those we offend should be the thing we do.  Unfortunately, I&#8217;ve found that when it comes to church politics, people apologizing to pastors they have wronged or vice versa is very rare.</p>
<p>I guess that&#8217;s why when it comes to forgiveness, we have to be proactive, even if we don&#8217;t receive an apology.  I actually was just talking about this about Bible study the other week.  When Jesus tells Peter he must forgive someone who wrongs him &#8220;seventy times seven&#8221; times, He is actually using the exact phrase that Lamech uses in Genesis 4:24:</p>
<blockquote><p> 23 Lamech said to his wives,<br />
       &#8220;Adah and Zillah, listen to me;<br />
       wives of Lamech, hear my words.<br />
       I have killed [a] a man for wounding me,<br />
       a young man for injuring me.</p>
<p> 24 If Cain is avenged seven times,<br />
       then Lamech seventy-seven times.&#8221;*</p>
<p>     * <em>this could be translated seventy-seven or seventy times seven</em> </p></blockquote>
<p>Jesus is making a point by referencing this phrase.  Lamech uses of &#8220;seventy times seven&#8221; means he will exact perfect revenge if someone wrongs him, and he we aggressively pursue it.  Jesus is saying just as Lamech vowed to hunt down an exact revenge on those who wronged him, we should hunt down and aggressively forgive those who have wronged us.  It&#8217;s not just passive forgiveness that we need to be involved in.</p>
<p>I still think even if we do go out of our way to forgive those who&#8217;ve wronged us, though, there are people who simply will not apologize.  At that point, if our conscience is clear, I believe it may be best to let them be, and not let them hurt us any longer.</p>
<p>Of course, all of this is a lot easier said than done.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/12/17/thought-for-the-day-42/comment-page-1/#comment-108378</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:21:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/12/17/thought-for-the-day-42/#comment-108378</guid>
		<description>The last church I was at, essentially lied to me in the interview process. (I&#039;m sure they would view it differently). They talked bad about me and my family and did all sort of hurtful things. They blamed me all sorts of things that I had no control over, wrote hurtful blog and myspace messages and were generally mean people. 
The church before that the guy who was in charge of helping us fund our church plant pulled funds to give to a friend of his. 
I have a really long list of crappy things that church people have done to me. Heck, right now, there is a writer here that I think has wronged me. I imagine he thinks I wronged him. I share that so you know that I have some understanding of where you are coming from. 
I don&#039;t think we can expect apologies. They most likely believe that they were right. 
I have found that I have to forgive them and leave them in God&#039;s hands. The problem is we want to feel better on our time frame and schedule. Life is hard, it is messy and ugly. Sometimes, it sucks. People hurt us, we hurt people. 
You just have to keep going and trust that God will heal you. You are the only person in this story that you can control.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The last church I was at, essentially lied to me in the interview process. (I&#8217;m sure they would view it differently). They talked bad about me and my family and did all sort of hurtful things. They blamed me all sorts of things that I had no control over, wrote hurtful blog and myspace messages and were generally mean people.<br />
The church before that the guy who was in charge of helping us fund our church plant pulled funds to give to a friend of his.<br />
I have a really long list of crappy things that church people have done to me. Heck, right now, there is a writer here that I think has wronged me. I imagine he thinks I wronged him. I share that so you know that I have some understanding of where you are coming from.<br />
I don&#8217;t think we can expect apologies. They most likely believe that they were right.<br />
I have found that I have to forgive them and leave them in God&#8217;s hands. The problem is we want to feel better on our time frame and schedule. Life is hard, it is messy and ugly. Sometimes, it sucks. People hurt us, we hurt people.<br />
You just have to keep going and trust that God will heal you. You are the only person in this story that you can control.</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/12/17/thought-for-the-day-42/comment-page-1/#comment-108374</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:05:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/12/17/thought-for-the-day-42/#comment-108374</guid>
		<description>Phil,

Do you think we should expect an apology?

jerry</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil,</p>
<p>Do you think we should expect an apology?</p>
<p>jerry</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Miller</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/12/17/thought-for-the-day-42/comment-page-1/#comment-108366</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:35:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/12/17/thought-for-the-day-42/#comment-108366</guid>
		<description>When we left our campus ministry position at the church we were at previously, it was under not the best of circumstances.  I think it&#039;s still probably a much different situation leaving a church as someone just on staff than it is a senior pastor leaving, though.  For one thing, we didn&#039;t really have all that much interaction with a big part of the congregation.  We still occasionally meet people from the congregation in town who say to us, &quot;we haven&#039;t seen you in church recently, are you OK?&quot; who seem to not realize we left.  So I guess we were either really good at being invisible or there are a lot of clueless people.

Anyway, as far as reconciliation and forgiveness goes, I&#039;d say it has taken awhile for us to say that we are OK with things, and even then, I don&#039;t think I will be inviting the senior pastor we worked with out for dinner anytime soon.  For one thing, we haven&#039;t gotten any type of apology, and though I do believe we can forgive him and not hold things against him, I don&#039;t think we are called to continually open ourselves for more pain from an unrepentant offender.  Trust and forgiveness are two different things, and when there&#039;s a betrayal of trust, I think there does have to be some real change on the part of the one who betrayed that trust before you can trust him again.  Otherwise, you&#039;re just asking to be hurt again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When we left our campus ministry position at the church we were at previously, it was under not the best of circumstances.  I think it&#8217;s still probably a much different situation leaving a church as someone just on staff than it is a senior pastor leaving, though.  For one thing, we didn&#8217;t really have all that much interaction with a big part of the congregation.  We still occasionally meet people from the congregation in town who say to us, &#8220;we haven&#8217;t seen you in church recently, are you OK?&#8221; who seem to not realize we left.  So I guess we were either really good at being invisible or there are a lot of clueless people.</p>
<p>Anyway, as far as reconciliation and forgiveness goes, I&#8217;d say it has taken awhile for us to say that we are OK with things, and even then, I don&#8217;t think I will be inviting the senior pastor we worked with out for dinner anytime soon.  For one thing, we haven&#8217;t gotten any type of apology, and though I do believe we can forgive him and not hold things against him, I don&#8217;t think we are called to continually open ourselves for more pain from an unrepentant offender.  Trust and forgiveness are two different things, and when there&#8217;s a betrayal of trust, I think there does have to be some real change on the part of the one who betrayed that trust before you can trust him again.  Otherwise, you&#8217;re just asking to be hurt again.</p>
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		<title>By: troy</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/12/17/thought-for-the-day-42/comment-page-1/#comment-108364</link>
		<dc:creator>troy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:20:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/12/17/thought-for-the-day-42/#comment-108364</guid>
		<description>Jerry,

I don&#039;t know if this passage applies to your situation. Note that Jesus didn&#039;t say that you had ought against your brother, he stated that your brother had ought against you. Maybe you&#039;ve done nothing to wrong him/her. It&#039;s still the child of God&#039;s duty to square it out.

Matthew 5
23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
 24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jerry,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if this passage applies to your situation. Note that Jesus didn&#8217;t say that you had ought against your brother, he stated that your brother had ought against you. Maybe you&#8217;ve done nothing to wrong him/her. It&#8217;s still the child of God&#8217;s duty to square it out.</p>
<p>Matthew 5<br />
23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;<br />
 24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/12/17/thought-for-the-day-42/comment-page-1/#comment-108358</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 04:07:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/12/17/thought-for-the-day-42/#comment-108358</guid>
		<description>Nathan,

I appreciate that very much. As you can tell, I am no way near ready to reach out yet. I still have to see many of them because we are still in the same community (and my wife sees them at the bank where she works). It is very hard to see these folks going on with their lives as if the sky is still blue and nary a cloud is filled with rain. 

I guess you are right. We&#039;ll see.

jerry</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nathan,</p>
<p>I appreciate that very much. As you can tell, I am no way near ready to reach out yet. I still have to see many of them because we are still in the same community (and my wife sees them at the bank where she works). It is very hard to see these folks going on with their lives as if the sky is still blue and nary a cloud is filled with rain. </p>
<p>I guess you are right. We&#8217;ll see.</p>
<p>jerry</p>
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		<title>By: nathan</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/12/17/thought-for-the-day-42/comment-page-1/#comment-108341</link>
		<dc:creator>nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 19:20:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/12/17/thought-for-the-day-42/#comment-108341</guid>
		<description>after our last church hellish ending, i had to cut some people off because they were unwilling to come together to give and receive forgiveness/reconciliation. 

i went my way, got therapy, and moved on. 

now almost 4 years later, i&#039;m ready to reach out--but only for a brief moment--to state unequivocally that i have forgiven people and to apologize for the ways i reacted wrongly to their sin against me. 

i share this to say...give it time...and be open to your own healing...if part of that is to offer/extend forgiveness do so, but if people can&#039;t be trusted and you&#039;re still tender/raw...then leave it alone, grieve and get a sense of what God has for you next. 

I believe God has good things for you Jerry!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>after our last church hellish ending, i had to cut some people off because they were unwilling to come together to give and receive forgiveness/reconciliation. </p>
<p>i went my way, got therapy, and moved on. </p>
<p>now almost 4 years later, i&#8217;m ready to reach out&#8211;but only for a brief moment&#8211;to state unequivocally that i have forgiven people and to apologize for the ways i reacted wrongly to their sin against me. </p>
<p>i share this to say&#8230;give it time&#8230;and be open to your own healing&#8230;if part of that is to offer/extend forgiveness do so, but if people can&#8217;t be trusted and you&#8217;re still tender/raw&#8230;then leave it alone, grieve and get a sense of what God has for you next. </p>
<p>I believe God has good things for you Jerry!</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/12/17/thought-for-the-day-42/comment-page-1/#comment-108329</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:15:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2009/12/17/thought-for-the-day-42/#comment-108329</guid>
		<description>Jerry,

A couple of comments:

Yes, be assured that there is such a thing as love.  However, remember that love is really more an act of the will than it is a raw emotion.  The world around us really only defines love in emotional and sexual terms.  Of course, Jesus demonstrated perfect love in submitting to the Father and dieing for our sins.  Also, the whole of Jesus&#039; life demonstrated perfect servant-love.  And Jesus&#039; love for the Father and sinners must be more than an emotion; he had to actively and willfully submit to a life of degradation and suffering and death on a cross.  Likewise for us, love is an act of the will, and it does not (or at least should not) change based on circumstances.  I suspect you still love the people who you feel wronged you.  Remember, then, that you can continue to love them even when you do not receive love back.

You brought up the word reconciliation.  I encourage you to continue to make efforts towards reconciliation with a spirit of love and humility.  God commanded us to &quot;be reconciled one to another&quot;, and it appears as though you realize the importance of reconciliation regardless of the past circumstances.  Of course, ultimately you can only control one half of reconciliation, and you can rest with a clean conscience if you have done everything in your power to reconcile.

Finally, remember that while we are called to demonstrate the same sacrificial love that Jesus demonstrated, we will always fail to some degree, as we are all corrupted by sin.  Is there love - yes.  Is there perfect love amongst man - no.  I will pray for you, brother.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jerry,</p>
<p>A couple of comments:</p>
<p>Yes, be assured that there is such a thing as love.  However, remember that love is really more an act of the will than it is a raw emotion.  The world around us really only defines love in emotional and sexual terms.  Of course, Jesus demonstrated perfect love in submitting to the Father and dieing for our sins.  Also, the whole of Jesus&#8217; life demonstrated perfect servant-love.  And Jesus&#8217; love for the Father and sinners must be more than an emotion; he had to actively and willfully submit to a life of degradation and suffering and death on a cross.  Likewise for us, love is an act of the will, and it does not (or at least should not) change based on circumstances.  I suspect you still love the people who you feel wronged you.  Remember, then, that you can continue to love them even when you do not receive love back.</p>
<p>You brought up the word reconciliation.  I encourage you to continue to make efforts towards reconciliation with a spirit of love and humility.  God commanded us to &#8220;be reconciled one to another&#8221;, and it appears as though you realize the importance of reconciliation regardless of the past circumstances.  Of course, ultimately you can only control one half of reconciliation, and you can rest with a clean conscience if you have done everything in your power to reconcile.</p>
<p>Finally, remember that while we are called to demonstrate the same sacrificial love that Jesus demonstrated, we will always fail to some degree, as we are all corrupted by sin.  Is there love &#8211; yes.  Is there perfect love amongst man &#8211; no.  I will pray for you, brother.</p>
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