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I’m in conversation with Tony Jones and Philip Clayon about the nature of denominations/churches in Emergent culture.
Would love anyone’s input:
Theology BEYOND Google
Serious Question:
Is there a difference between SIN and EVIL?
For example, we are all sinners. We slip every day. Some are in bondage to habits and the like that are destructive (alcoholism, etc).
But then there are people who are just plain evil. I am thinking of corporations or atrocities that take place in war that are led by men who take great pleasure in torment.
Do you think God sees a difference?
evil
–adjective
1. morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
2. harmful; injurious: evil laws.
3. characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
4. due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.
5. marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.: He is known for his evil disposition.
–noun
6. that which is evil; evil quality, intention, or conduct: to choose the lesser of two evils.
7. the force in nature that governs and gives rise to wickedness and sin.
8. the wicked or immoral part of someone or something: The evil in his nature has destroyed the good.
9. harm; mischief; misfortune: to wish one evil.
10. anything causing injury or harm: Tobacco is considered by some to be an evil.
11. a harmful aspect, effect, or consequence: the evils of alcohol.
12. a disease, as king’s evil.
sin
–noun
1. transgression of divine law: the sin of Adam.
2. any act regarded as such a transgression, esp. a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle.
3. any reprehensible or regrettable action, behavior, lapse, etc.; great fault or offense: It’s a sin to waste time.
–verb (used without object)
4. to commit a sinful act.
5. to offend against a principle, standard, etc.
–verb (used with object)
6. to commit or perform sinfully: He sinned his crimes without compunction.
7. to bring, drive, etc., by sinning: He sinned his soul to perdition.
he does if he pays attention to grammar.
#2
we sin because we are evil. Children of wrath, not righteous, haters of God, pre-conversion.
When we are saved, we still deal with the flesh, but we have the ability to deny sin and live to God. Our primary nature has been changed.
I see sin as an action, and evil as a state (specifically, Oregon).
j/k – not that kind of state
Hold on to your hats, everybody, but I agree with PB’s definitions/assessments.
New study on Race and Religion.
i don’t.
Nor do I
PB’s assessment is very simplistic and I think misses what I was asking (at least with the examples I gave).
We are also subject to sin. Think of the poor homeless man, addicted to Windex.
But there is a certain malevolence – a deep darkness – that occurs in the hearts of some, that is not simply sin (though it is sin). Think of what occurs in the hearts of men when all restraint is removed (Rwanda, Liberia, etc). Think of the false teacher (ie: Popoff selling holy water) using Christ for profit. He is not only a sinner, but has given himself over (perhaps with full knowledge and indifference) to evil.
Do you see what I’m saying?
i see what you are say’n… though, frankly, i don’t see why you are say’n it.
On grief:
http://chadholtz.wordpress.com/2010/01/31/oh-good-grief/
#8 and 9
Thats the problem with you and many today, is that they do not properly see themselves or mankind as God sees us.
Pre- Conversion:
Our hearts are deceitfully wicked.
We are children of wrath.
We are not righteous
we do not do good
our tongues are open graves
our feet are swift to shed blood
there is no fear of God before our eyes
The Bible explains human rebellion against God and man’s condition before God from several perspectives and with various images:
“doing . . . evil” (Judg. 2:11)
“disobedience” (Rom. 5:19)
“transgression” (Ex. 23:21; 1 Tim. 2:14)
“iniquity” (Lev. 26:40)
“lawlessness” (Titus 2:14, 1 John 3:4)
“trespass” (Eph. 2:1)
“ungodliness” (1 Pet. 4:18)
“unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9)
“unholy” (1 Tim. 1:9)
“wickedness” (Prov. 11:31)
Sin is moral evil (e.g., murder) as opposed to natural evil (e.g., cancer). Moral evil is personal rebellion against God, and it is what brought natural evil into the world.
Our sin is against God:“Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment” (Ps. 51:4)
Sin is rooted deep in our very nature, and sinful actions reveal the condition of a depraved heart within: “Out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander” (Matt. 15:19; cf. Matt. 7:15–19)
Sin has brought about a guilty standing before God and a corrupted condition in all humans. The pronouncement of guilt is God’s legal determination that people are in an unrighteous state before him, and the condition of corruption is our polluted state which inclines us toward ungodly behavior.
Now Chad and Neil, you can disagree with me, but I would say in disagreeing that we are evil pre-conversion that you are disagreeing with God and His Word, not with me.
it would have helped if you asked in what way i disagreed with you instead of assuming… then we could have had a dialogue… but instead you choose your usual MO of assuming and confronting..
i think you are happiest when you are accusing and confronting. you call it standing for truth, and i may agree if you bothered to understand first – but you (more often then not) do not bother trying to understand before you…
reading, FIRE, aim – that’s you more often than not.
shoot first, ask questions later.
off to florida for me and a cold weather break.
Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius
For PB, it isn’t just a slogan, it’s a ministry philosophy.
Yeah but…
Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris
Well, Neil, you disagreed with what I wrote which was
So, I am sorry, but it sounds like you disagreed with what I wrote. So which part was it? really?
I’d like to see a baby dedication at PB’s church – “welcome to the world, you little evil bastard!”.
lol Phil!
Lucky for all of us God didn’t and doesn’t see humanity the way John Chisham sees them.
pastorboy,
wherein does the scripture say that all who are outside christ are “haters of god”?
further, i do not think we sin because we are evil. we sin because we are sinners. certainly people have the potential for evil, but where does the bible teach that everyone outside christ is evil?
so, since you asked, that is where i disagreed with your comments in #4.
pastorboy,
you describe man’s condition before god then site judges 2:11 as proof. yet that verse does not argue man’s condition before conversion, it described the behavior of the israelites at a period of time.
you do a similar thing by quoting proverbs – this verse does not teach the condition of men without christ. even when i agree with you i would take issue with your sloppy use of scripture.
I’m starting to see a different point of view. scary. really. scary.
this i agree with, but you cannot just grab a concordance and list a bunch of verses that use the words you are looking for…
i admit i am splitting hairs. i admit that i am disagreeing with portions of what you said. but what i find most disagreeable is you willingness to quote verses to say things they do not say.
I like PB’s citation of Proverbs 11:31:
Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: how much more the wicked and the sinner!
Citations that sloppy make baby Jesus cry.
Well, I don’t think you’re splitting hairs. If we are OK with labeling people as “evil”, than it doesn’t take too long before we actually start seeing them as our enemy.
People may commit all kinds of atrocities and partake of all sorts of evil, but they themselves are not inherently evil. Yes, they are desperately fallen, but if people were 100% evil before they came to Christ, there would be nothing actually worth saving.
Which has no meaning if you leave out the “good news”
388 – With the progress of Revelation, the reality of sin is also illuminated. Although to some extent the People of God in the Old Testament had tried to understand the pathos of the human condition in the light of the history of the fall narrated in Genesis, they could not grasp this story’s ultimate meaning, which is revealed only in the light of the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. We must know Christ as the source of grace in order to know Adam as the source of sin. The Spirit-Paraclete, sent by the risen Christ, came to “convict the world concerning sin”, by revealing him who is its Redeemer.
389 – The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the “reverse side” of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ, knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.
phil, i think i would even go so far as to say people can become evil. but until i see clear scriptural evidence to the contrary, i’m not buy’n that all people pre-conversion are evil.
Baptists kidnap kids in Haiti. What were they thinking?