I don’t see why anyone would attack either the message or the messenger. I think their analysis seems fairly reasonable.

And Hannity is wearing a nice tie.

so it all boils down to baby boomers being over-indulged as children?

our current crisis is really the fault of the so-called “greatest generation” being “not so great parents”, but that’s ok because their hearts were in the right place?

I need to see the film. it’s intriguing.

I’d probably agree with some of their stuff. But I’ve studied the sociology of the American family and the “June Cleaver” ideal wasn’t a pervasive norm. It was a television/advertising construct.

The economic god always generates passion from all sides. And the millionaire hosts are just the examples we need to guide us to a more Jesus mirrored lifestyle.

In this venue I am much more inclined to listen to Shane Claiborne than Hannity, Oberman, Obama, Bush, or most others.

No one in an American church actually believes the words of Jesus in Matthew chapters 5 through 7.

Guys. In all seriousness, the US is gradually going down, just like other empires before it.

The problem being faced will not go away. In this regard, the greatest problem in America is Americans (no pain tolerance to actually deal with the root of the problems; too much profit to be had).

We ought not to get all up-in-arms over it either. Blathering on about the “good ol’ days” is what every generation does. Too bad the genie is out of the bottle…

Re:9

I think it’s foolish to predict with any certainty the rise or decline of global powers. 30 years ago, the common sense wisdom was that Japan’s economy was going to eclipse the U.S. economy. Instead, China will pass Japan sometime this year.

Who’s to say the same thing won’t happen to China? They have an artificial currency, an economy overly reliant on exports, and a political system that stifles innovation and creativity.

The world’s finest universities are almost all in the United States. The U.S. continues to attract the world’s most talented professionals.

While we are definitely looking at a multi-polar world over the next 20 years, to liken the U.S. to Rome, Greece, or any other worldwide “empire” is premature at best.

I’m using power in the ordinary sense of the English word. That is, the ability of a nation to exercise control or authority over other nations.

While I agree that all powers are subordinate to Christ, I would disagree that there is no such thing as a power other than the Church. In fact, such a notion is clearly anti-biblical.

“For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.”

Colossians 1:16.

They have an artificial currency

What is the US Dollar if not artificial?

an economy overly reliant on exports

And the US is an economy overly reliant on imports. In terms of products, it essentially makes nothing it consumes.

But my point is not necessarily a comparison with China or any other power. Geopolitically the US is well-positioned (no aggressive powers around it, unlike other countries).

But it is rotting from within.

Rome didn’t fall because of barbarians. It caved in on itself over decades. Likewise other empires.

America is declining before your eyes. What it takes to right the ship is too painful politically so the situation will gradually unravel. Guaranteed.

This is not prophecy, just observation. Of course, if you’re on the ship (a US citizen) this isn’t very palatable and might be hard to swallow.

Re:15

Um, the U.S. currency isn’t artificial from a trade standpoint. It’s value is determined by the market, unlike China’s currency. And I don’t get into the whole gold standard, Fed is evil, tinfoil conspiracies.

And, um, the U.S. makes all sorts of stuff. You know, planes, microprocessors, software, turbines, etc. Do I really think we need to go back to making poisonous toys, cheap clothes, and other related crap? Not so much. I’ll take the former and skip the latter.

But yes, the U.S. has a service economy. Point well made.

As far as rotting goes, that’s your opinion, which is fine. But I think people who are just absolutely convinced that Americans are fat, lazy, and drunk, and that fact will be our doom, are people who are buying too much into perceived points of comparison between the U.S. and Rome.

But the key difference is the U.S. historically, and somewhat to this day, has been a land that has welcomed and accepted immigrants-turning them even into citizens. People who leave their country come to the U.S. to fulfill their dreams. That fact has constantly energized, strengthened, and improved the U.S.

As long as the U.S. remains this way, their will be prosperity.

Jerry,

I’m being sarcastic about the “greatest generation” bit.

AND I agree that people didn’t live within their means.

AND I agree that the government policy was wrong too.

I just find it interesting that people who tout “personal responsibility” don’t want to lay the other side of blame where it belongs…on greedy, stupid individuals who signed on the dotted line of exotic financing agreements.

Nobody FORCED anyone to accept a loan. (i.e. the greed/stupidity of Main Street).

But that doesn’t track with constituents well…

This is the reason why my wife and i didn’t buy in California when we lived there.

We knew we could “do it”, but there was no wiggle room in the event of a crisis…we’re thankful every day that we weren’t suckered by people pushing “interest only” 0% down ARMs at us…it just didn’t make sense.

Here’s some other thoughts on this from me…not in any order or particular form:

1. I agree with the earlier comment that the problem with America is Americans.

2. This whole “blame the government” thing is only one side of the coin and betrays basic conservative principles about personal responsibility.

3.It may be surprising to some of you, but I’m big on fiscal responsibility and competent governance, but I don’t think it’s necessary to demonize “government” to get there.

one more thing…

the whole discourse of “greatest generation” itself is smelly pile.

it’s just a variation on the “great man” theory of history. which is patently a load of steamy caca.

American’s aren’t “lazy”. We’re just prideful.

We work hard at the jobs we do, but there are certain jobs we’re clearly unwilling to do.

That’s not laziness…but a sense of self-importance that agricultural work or other forms of physical labor are beneath us.

That’s not a particularly “American” problem, but a feature of ‘class distinctions’ within cultures.

Are you talking about the threat of inflation because of quantitative easing?

Quantitative easing? That’s exactly what I mean: you can come up with terms that hide or diminish the facts all you want.

If you’re short, you’re short. Of course, I can make it sound nice and say you’re vertically challenged. It doesn’t change the fact if you’re 4′11″.

Again, common sense tells us that if we continue building higher and higher on bad foundation, it will end badly. It is a matter of time, but it will.

“Hey George? There are massive structural cracks in foundation of the skyscraper. I think we should pause building and see what’s really happening down there.”

“No. We can’t stop now. We’ve got a deadline to meet. The residents are aiming to move in next month! Just keep building higher. 20 stories to go then on to the next project!”

There are tricky times ahead.

Not tricky. Think of the Jenga reference.

About your test: How long could I survive by meeting every single one of my financial obligations and retaining a AAA bond rating, the highest rating possible?

Yes, I suppose we all could if we had a printer in our basement reaming off billions of dollars. Good point.

I have nothing against the US (ie: I’m not anti-American at all). Just calling the situation what it is.

There was another time in which the U.S. was in the middle of a recession, and a Democratic President came in, and immediately forecasted significant and even threatening debts through two terms of office.

The year was 1990, and the President was Bill Clinton. As we all know, the internet took off, the economy did incredibly well, and the tax receipts led to a balanced budget.

It’s funny that tea partiers don’t understand the centrality of tax receipts to U.S. fiscal health. I think people get the impression that President Obama came in and immediately spent his way to our current deficit levels.

Untrue. The recession has created this problem. And if a strong recovery were possible (how I wish it were so) we would immediately be in much less trouble.

Forecasting debts more than two years out is like predicting the weather for July. It’s nothing more than an educated guess.

And predicting that this current economic stress will result in some major collapse in the United States is even more foolish.

That said, I think that I am guilty of playing the ‘who should we blame game.’ Figuring out who to blame should be the least of my concerns right now. A better idea, for me at least, is to figure out how I as a Jesus follower can help alleviate the pain of those who are suffering because of bad decisions, sin, and corporate and federal greed.

If Christ has put me in a place of comfort, how can I bring that to others? How can I be an agent of grace in a place of suffering?

That’s what I will be trying to do.

I’m off to work now. I have a long 11 hours ahead of me today. Grace and Peace.

jerry

Zan:

I think right now we are dealing with two problems, one short-term and one long-term.

First, we need to get out of the most serious recession since the Great Depression. That requires, for the short-term, greater spending AND tax cuts. This will, of course, result in serious deficits. Of course, controlled, temporary, deficits are at times useful, like during World War II (which is an extreme example).

The long-term problem is entitlement spending, which, if left uncorrected, will bankrupt the United States, with or without a recession. This spending needs to be cut, period.

The difficult is Medicare and Social Security are the third-rail of politics. You touch it, you die. At some point, though, when all Americans realize that spending cuts are preferable to bankruptcy, things will happen.

Alternatively, we could institute an even more progressive tax regime. If we increased marginal tax rates at the very highest end (greater than a million a year) to 40, 50 or even 60 percent, we could balance the budget.

Either solution is political suicide, though.

I personally don’t think either scenario will happen. Basically because there will be warning signs ahead of time that will force the U.S. to cut spending.

I thought that this statement was cute and patriotic. As if people ever back-track when there’s money to be had. Ummmm… I think the warning signs are here. Reminds me of this poem:

If the signals are flashing and the gates are all down,
and the whistle is blowing in vain,
if you stay on the tracks, ignoring the facts,
then don’t blame the wreck on the train.

Here’s a very insightful video from some high-powered individuals speaking frankly about the unrecoverable state of the US:

Paul Craig Roberts on US crumbling economic power

I should say though, that regardless of this frank analysis, even a fool like myself can see things are not looking rosy.

$60 Trillion in unfunded liabilities.

Good luck.

This whole thread reminds me of this piece of inspired journalism:

U.S. Economy Grinds To Halt As Nation Realizes Money Just A Symbolic, Mutually Shared Illusion

Meauring the kingdoms of this world outside of Scripture is both incomplete and fallcious.

It’s worse. The typical bankrupt household can only go so far before it runs into reality like a brick wall. The US has $60 trillion in unfunded liabilities alone (not to mention all of the other messes).

The thing about the national debt is that old spiel – if you owe $1 million to the bank, the bank owns you. If you owe the bank $60 trillion, you own the bank. The thing about these liabilities as far the US government is concerned is that there very little the countries that are actually buying the US treasury bonds can do to make the US pay them. So, really, if he US economy fails, the world economy fails.

So, really, if he US economy fails, the world economy fails.

Interesting timing… you were writing this as I was referencing Rev 18. That’s the end game (in my view). The economy of this world (no longer nation) will collapse as “within one hour”. It is as fragile as a stack of cards figuratively speaking (sorry MG for another analogy). It has the outer appearance of strength but it is rotten to the core.

Phil’s comment in #39 is correct. The US will drag most everything down.

That’s the end game (in my view). The economy of this world (no longer nation) will collapse as “within one hour”. It is as fragile as a stack of cards figuratively speaking (sorry MG for another analogy). It has the outer appearance of strength but it is rotten to the core.

Well, I wasn’t trying to make the point related to eschatology at all, really. I’m just saying that the world economy is so interconnected now, that if China for some reason decided to completely stop investing in US treasury bonds, it would hurt itself just as much as it would hurt the US.

As far as it “all crashing down”, I’d say it’s happened many times in the past, and it will probably happen again sometime. The world has undergone all sorts of apocalypses. I’m sure that Christians who watched their family members being sacrificed to lions thought their world on the verge of coming to an end as well.

RE:40

So, ultimately, your convinced that the U.S. economy is a “house of cards” and is nothing more than a “game of Jenga” because you think it fulfills biblical prophecy?

Really?

And I’m the one that’s distorted?

#45: perhaps you’re misunderstanding me. My point in bringing in Rev 18 is to draw a corollary: that what appears so strong and indestructible to some is in reality weak and fragile. The US economy fits this perfectly.

You actually point to stats (GDP) that INCLUDES gov’t spending (plus other things that are actually expenses). Amazing.

Try doing that in your personal life.

So yes, when it comes to this thread, you are quite distorted in your view.

RE:47

You are aware that the U.S. government actually collects tax revenue, right?

Would you propose that a better way to measure economic output would be to ignore the entity that takes almost half of my paycheck?

Really? Make my paycheck disappear by HALF, and then IGNORE all that wealth?

Really?

Re:50

Phil’s point was that the overnight abandonment of dollars as the global reserve currency would be detrimental to everyone.

On that point, I concur.

But that being said, nothing is stopping China from slowly finding a way to invest in something else. If U.S. debt is unstable, it will probably go down that road.

But, as of now, the U.S. continues to sell its debt.

And am I arguing that things are wonderful? No, I’m not. I’m simply disagreeing with the idea that the U.S. is on an inexorable path to economic ruin, which will usher in the apocalypse.

Yes, the US is on a irreversible path towards economic ruin.
BTW, did you check to see where the US’s 60 trllion debt is included in GDP.

Re China, the only reason they continue to buy US bonds is to ensure their 2 trlilion USD doesn’t disappear overnight – which is what will happen if they stop. They are looking for alternatives, but in the mean time, they can’t just stop buying or they forfeit what they have.

I am very surprised you seem to think countries are buying your bonds for any other reason than to avert disaster.

Re:53

Paul, a few simple facts are key here.

One, many nations purchase U.S. treasures. Thus, the fact that a single nation purchases or does not purchase treasuries is of little consequence.

Two, the fact is that U.S. debt is currently selling at very low interest rates. If there were genuine investor concern, that would be reflected in higher interest rates.

The point is that China, as well as a host of other nations, is not only purchasing U.S. debt, it’s doing so at low interest rates.

The only explanation for this is that U.S. treasuries are viewed, still, as relatively risk-free investments.

Any one nation is free to stop purchasing these risk-free investments. If supply dried up enough, the U.S. would not “fold literally overnight.”

Instead, interest rates would rise, and the U.S. would continue to meet its debt obligations (worse case scenario, through the printing of money). Higher interest rates, of course, would stifle the U.S. economic recovery, having effects in China and elsewhere.

But the thought that any *single* nation continues to purchase U.S. treasures at *low* interest rates in order to avert disaster, as opposed to purchase risk-free investments, is really really off the mark.

Also, Paul, please explain to me what the relationship is between 60 trillion in entitlement obligations and the U.S.’s 14 trillion annual GDP is.

I asked you this question. The point is that it is not reflected in the GDP. Correct me if I’m wrong – otherwise just sweep it under the rug like everything else.

does anyone know “who” was doing the “run on the banks” when everything was going to collapse?

Well, I’ve heard George Soros name thrown around as one of the culprits…

It depends on how much you want to believe the conspiracy theories.

Re:57

I really have no idea what you’re talking about. That’s why I asked for an explanation.

I’m interested in other things swept under the rug. What have I swept under the rug?

As it is, I would love substantive responses to comments 49, 55, etc., as well as other questions like:

How many AAA rated bonds have you known to default?

Why are interest rates so low on U.S. treasuries?

If multiple people, groups, and nations invest in U.S. treasuries, why would it ever be in a *single* nation’s interest to invest assuming that U.S. treasuries really are moments away from worthlessness?

Following the political nonsense with any level of reality and even partiality is like believing Avatar is a documentary. Of course “your guys” are more sincere than “the other guys” and Obama is the political antichrist.

I love a good novel, especially when normally intelligent people derive vicarious passion from carnal thespians. Millions are still aborted, cancer still kills, diabetes gets worse, racism still lurks, but if you really want passion from people talk about money. That will give birth to the most profound vitriol and even tea parties.

No such tea parties for the unborn, if we are speaking of moral issues.

When the US economy dips people restrict the number of Outback visits. (Almost no one cancels their cable!)

When the economy of the Sudan dips people starve to death. We Americansw live such a narcissistic existence. Even some evangelicals suggest America is the new Israel! Such blind hubris.

#66
Both would be devestating if people neither remembered to thank God and remember Him in their prosperity and seek His help in the collapse.

http://thelawmanchronicles.blogspot.com/2010/02/one-pastors-missed-opportunity.html

Here is an open air preacher even CHAD can agree with….

PB – Is he Hannity’s pastor?

John Chisham – I have no problem with open air preaching, in and of itself. So I don’t know what you are talking about (no surprise there)

“So that Baptist KJV-only preacher would say NO!!”

I am not sure that preacher knows what the gospel actually is is.