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![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
52 Comments(+Add)
Great movie.
Isn’t it good that God does not whisper into our ear and say ‘earn this?’
His sacrifice means that the debt has been paid on our behalf. We can do nothing to earn it. And it does not matter whether people think we are good, because the only standard that matters is the God’s righteousness that becomes ours on the basis of faith. The fruit we bear is the fruit of the Holy Spirit-it has nothing to do with us.
Not the Greg Boyd/Rob Bell/Brian McLaren version would be earn this- go out and do do do, make sure there is social justice and kind works that make sure that people have water, food, toms shoes, etc, and it does not matter what they believe, just that they are fed and have shoes. On the last day, they will say did we not do this in your name and the response will be ‘I never knew you’.
PB,
You are an idiot.
Have a nice day. That is all.
#2 – Surely you can at least agree that McLaren will certainly not find his way into the Kingdom at this point? The dude’s MESSED up in his theology.
Rob Bell, while certainly likely a crappy teacher with all of his foggy language and questionable quotes in his books, cannot be judged quite yet in regards to his devotion to Jesus Christ in theology.
No idea who Greg Boyd is, though.
John,
Thanks for nothing.
jerry
As far as McLaren goes, I actually probably agree with him on more things than I disagree with him. His theology seems to be a mish-mesh of different things. I really don’t think one’s opinion on the homosexuality ,universalism, pacifism, etc. is what determines whether he’s in the Kingdom or not, though. It’s whether or not the King knows them, and that’s not my call to make.
As far as Bell, I don’t really know what’s foggy with him. Frankly, I’d be more worried about someone’s teaching if he didn’t produce a few questionable things now and then.
Greg Boyd is the pastor of Woodland Hills Church in St. Paul, MN. John Piper tried unsuccessfully to have him kicked out of the General Baptist Convention a few years ago because of his views on the foreknowledge of God, better know as open theism. He’s one of my favorite writers.
wait so now you’re saying that these men teach works salvation?
#6 yep as do all pelagian heretics.
That’s funny. The way I remember that parable going was something like this:
I see no requirement that the gospel must accompany an act of kindness for it to be a valid expression of righteousness. (And I’ve never heard Boyd or Bell suggest that there is no need to give the credit to Christ or ones’ good works – or that they gain salvation. Rather, I’ve heard each – on separate occasions – express it as “we have been saved, and therefore we do good for the poor”…
How about just stopping the hate, PB, or just shutting up until you can find a sense of Christian love.
Also – I agree that God does not say “earn this…” – I just posted the movie because of the link to Memorial Day.
#7 – Ah yes, I forgot – systematic theology saves – God is just an afterthought.
So someone cannot be a saved pelagian? and since when is works salvation a pelagian plank?
while pastorboy is right, it is good that god does not tell us to earn our salvation, the debt was paid – yet he fails in applying his allegory.
the tom hanks character already paid the price, the sacrifice had been made, private ryan was already saved by the sacrifice – when he whispered those words.
a better application of the allegory would be to say that we should live our lives in response to the price that was paid to rescue us.
that was tom hank’s challenge.
One of my teachers at school pointed this out about the ending; the Hanks quote above almost ruined Ryan’s life. His attitude at the end of the movie demonstrates it as he asks his wife if he is a good man. He’s lived his entire life hoping to live up to the sacrifice and feeling miserable (no doubt) about falling short.
Hank’s character might as well have said “All these people died because of you.”
#12 Amen. Thats the point, Neil. The character was not released from a burden, he was given a heavy burden. Earn this.
Jesus’ commands are not burdensome for those who love Him and desire to keep his commands. They are not some add on. They are a natural response to His love and kindness in saving us and they flow from the power of the Holy Spirit.
#2
I forgive you, Phil.
I don’t hate you, PB (although, you do make it hard for me to be loving), but you are the one who’s slandering and spreading lies about your brothers in Christ. They aren’t new lies, either. They’re things that have been shown to be lies again and again. Yet you simply refuse to believe the facts. That is idiocy.
John,
You started out your first comment right on. I was prepared to type a hearty “Amen!” And then you chose to negate truth with slander and lies, which Phil correctly states have been proven to be such. May you feel the love of Christ in a fresh way today.
Shalom
pastorboy,
i believe your apliction of the movie clip was a stretch, that is, it did not fit – but to call it a “fail” was overly harsh. My apologies.
the “earn this” still does not correpond in the sense you are using it. to extend the analogy, the whole reason hank’s character die was because ryan could not get out of the army himself, he could not save himself. through the sacrifice of oher’s he could.
so ryan was challengd to respond accordingly. whether or not that was a a burden was up to ryan. hanks was not burdening ryan – he was challenging him. if it was a burden – that was ryan’s issue…. just like jesus ans paul challenged believers to live worthy lives.
in other words, it is not an analogy to salvation by grace, it’s an analogy to living a life worthy of the gospel.
Pastoboy, it was one warrior releasing another warrior from the guilt of his death. He was telling him not to mourn but make something good out of something that from all outward appearance, looks negative.
For most of those that have experienced battle know all too well what it means to give one’s life for another’s.
Your tripe dishonors those that died in service for their country.
Aaron, I’d love to meet that teacher and check his or her comprehension skills. Talk about missing the point of a movie.
Uh, the whole reason Ryan couldn’t get out was because no one could find him. They weren’t sacrificing themselves to save him, they were just assigned a crappy task of sorting through a warzone to make sure that a mother didn’t lose all of her sons. There was no noble duty and sacrifice on the soldiers parts in pursuing him. If he had died, the whole movie would have been a testimony in futility.
They weren’t sacrificing themselves for Ryan, they were simply trying to get to him in one piece and ended up getting killed by Nazis who were in the way.
And your comment dishonors those who died for the belief that they were protecting the world, not enabling people to invoke wartime honor to put down other people’s arguments. (I realize I may be invoking this myself, and I regret having to use it)
#20 – My teacher is a calvinist who thinks that Rob Bell teaches extremely questionable content, so you probably wouldn’t get along with him.
aaron,
you are correct in 21 when you say
is true. but you are pushing the analogy way beyond it’s intended limit.
none of this is what the movie was about… but it was pastorboy who decided to leverage it for another childish swipe. i merely pointed out that the analogy was far-fetched and offered one much closer to the point of the movie.
i too would say that aaron’s teacher missed the point… as i said in #18.
any challenge could become a burden.
this is an interesting statement. speaking for myself, i’d have no problem getting along with the strictest calvinist – unless they use their systematic theology as a test for orthodoxy.
i’m trying to figure out what role “calvinist” plays in that statement? why point that out?
#22. There was a time when people told me that I wouldn’t get along with their teacher because he or she was not a calvinist. I have many great friends who are 5 pointers and one who even believes in double predestination.
So I guess you don’t know me all that well.
#21.
WOW. Did you serve? Do you know that Scotty did? That he’s a bon-a-fide hero? There was no noble duty in their mission? No one on the inside would could say that. WOW.
I agree with Nathanael, Pastorboy would have evoked an Amen from me too if he had stopped with the first paragraph.
AND neil said it better than I could when he said…….
Pastorboy seldom offers arguments only statements. Most of which are like the tripe that made up the last paragraph in his first statement.
I appreciate what you said, Joe, I really do but, I just can’t comfortably wear that mantle. There were many more men more worthy than I…….I just did what I had to do.
Ok, 8 hours of work later, let’s see if I can answer some things (after thinking about it):
#23 – I would agree the analogy is going too far, I barely remember (without reading the previous comments) what the whole point was, something about a challenge/burden by Hanks’ character. I agree that trying to speculate what happened after or could have happened after is pointless since it’s only a movie in the end.
I would agree, too. Pastorboy does great defenses and offenses on bad theology (such as works theology). PB, if you read this, please continue to attack bad theology but try to leave out naming people. By pointing at bad theology rather than names, you can help some of us recognize bad theology instead of random names. My two cents on that part.
Perhaps I’ve just been listening to different meanings of the same words, but what is bad about systematic theology? It’s simply compiling the interpretative meanings throughout all of scripture into a cohesive whole on a subject, isn’t it? Once we come to a complete understanding of ALL of scripture on a subject, doesn’t that then become Orthodox if it is clear enough?
And yet you wish to meet my teacher and question their comprehension skills… (see #20)
This is a difficult one for me, especially since my only exposures to war (as a civilian) are to Desert Storm and the Iraqi/Afghanistan war, two wars that were convoluted and contorted in fifty different ways by the media.
I will honor a soldier who seeks to defend his honorable country (as those in WWII did), I will honor and grieve for a soldier who seeks to defend a questionable country (as those in Vietnam), and I will not honor the deeds themselves that soldiers will need to commit for such defenses (such as killing).
Scotty, I honor you and if I were to ever meet you, I would shake your hand, buy you a beer, do whatever I could to honor you and have you stand tall in your service. Thank you for your heart and devotion to a wretched mass such as us.
And so at the end of this long post (for me anyway), I do request that Joe or anyone else respond to what systematic theology is. This is a genuine request as I have heard many people praise it and revile it and want to know what I am missing.
(This is what I get for being a young man messing with elders)
(that wasn’t a poke at age.
)
When a theological “system” (which is, by definition, a system put together by man to give a holistic explanation for how God works) leaves the realm of being an interpretation and becomes a test of orthodoxy, it has left the reservation. One of (many) problems with systematic theologies is that when one piece falls apart, the whole thing tends to crumble.
A fundamental error of ST is that it tries to take the Bible – an Eastern/Hebraic Book, written to a primarily Eastern/Hebraic audience – and create a Western/Greek system that gives a full explanation of the rules that God follows – or that must govern His creation – creating a box that God must live within. As an Eastern/Hebraic work, though, mystery and artistic truth are just as important (if nor more so) as scientific logic and literal truth.
Truly systematic theology did not arrive until after the printing press was invented and in full operation – where the study of scripture was individualized and internalized.
I can think of a short list of topics on which we might claim that there is a complete understanding of ALL scripture on a subject.
Just as an example: Orthodox (in the broad sense) Christians would likely all agree that Jesus’ death provided atonement for sins. However, there are some – like PB – who insist that there is only one “correct” view of atonement (Penal Subtitutionary Atonement), and that anyone who holds a different view is – to some degree – heretical. The problem is, there are at least six views of atonement held by the church throughout history – each with Scriptural support. However, the house of cards that is hard-core Calvinism (a systematic theology) relies on PSA for some of its underpinnings, so to accept any other view of the atonement is threatening to the man-made system of explaining God. Therefore, PSA must be true, lest rest of the system fail.
Fox’s Book of Martyrs is full of “heros”. Dying for a nation cannot Biblically be categorized as heroic, unless you include the Taliban, Al Quieda, etc.. The 19 9/11 Arabs died for theirr faith as well.
As usual, the western mindset embraces violence as the ultimate heroism. Perhaps God sees things differently since our “Hero” refused violence and went willingly to His own death. I guess He would have been called a “concientious objector”.
War is the ultimate in bringing believers and unbelievers into an alliance in order to kill people to protect a piece of land which many times was gained through violence and oppression. War is antichrist at its core, and many sinners who are today in hell will be honored by believers and even in worship services. God does not honor them.
Sorry, Rick. I’ll be thankful today for those who died to protect me, my family, the community I live in, and the country I live in. No, America is not the Kingdom of God, but even so, it is a kingdom raised up by God (as he does with all kingdoms), and part of its God-given purpose is to defend its people.
FYI – neither Al Qaida or the Taliban are national defense forces, and thus, your vile attempt at moral equivalency fails.
#34 – Neither were the minutemen at the time.
there is nothing wrong with systematizing your theology. the danger comes in assuming everyone who is not in your system is a heretic.
#34 – Again – moral equivalency fail.
The minutemen were the defense forces of each individual colony, under the authority of the colonial government, which had declared independence from Britain. [Besides which, if you have to go back 240 years to besmirch the service of men who might still be alive today if not for their death in time of service, it is only your self-loathing being served, not any actual sort of moral high-ground. If you'd like to go back to England, you're free to try (though their immigration laws aren't nearly so liberal as the US' - which are pretty much the most open in the world, and still bitched about even then.)]
#36 – the other danger of systematic theology is the possibility of putting your faith in the system, itself, and losing hope when pieces of it are challenged, disproven, or don’t fit right…
Ronald Reagan, 1986:
I declare independence from America.
The country to which I desire to go is not of this world. So many sinners for whom Christ died went into a Christless eternity during various wars. Apperently you believe a Christless eternity is worth defending a piece of land.
I do not.
In pretty much the same numbers as without wars. Correlation is not causation, and the wars were inconsequential to their eternal destiny.
What a crock of crap. Apples and watermelons galore.
When we die, we’re not promised that we’re going somewhere else. Heaven will come to earth in the end, when Christ brings all wrongs to right. We’re called to live, not just to die, and the purpose of life is not limited to a viral marketing campaign for fire insurance.
Excellent.
To what country are you moving? I will help pay for the ticket, since apparently you don’t give a whit for the place you live or those who sacrificed so you would have the right to bitch about living there.
No, America is not the Kingdom of God, but as its citizens, we have a voice in how it is run – from the local dogcatcher to the the national government. And I believe, as those who founded the country believed, that God has given inalienable rights to His people, and the only purpose of government is to protect those rights. And I believe that a state of freedom – of speech, of assembly, and of worship – is most conducive for sharing and living out the gospel. As such, I believe that defending such God-given rights is worth risking our lives for.
“To what country are you moving?”
I’m already residing there.
Ah yes, I forgot. In Frueianity, Paul is the absolute authority on everything, unless he’s talking about the government, at which point, he’s wrong and has to defer to Rick.
whoops, forgot a /blockquote closer.
It automatically closes blockquotes if you forget them.
As for the sentiment, it’s not so much “love us or get out”, it’s just “quit bitching about the legitimate existence of any government, pissing on the graves of the folks who have died protecting the country, bemoaning Christians who serve in it – even so much as voting in its elections – and then expecting folks to somehow see your attitude as anything even close to resembling ‘Christ-like’”
Rick hasn’t said anything like that.
I did serve and have had family who died serving. That still doesn’t negate the fact that God desires something better. Violence for protection or advancement is not the plan of God. So to continually prop up the idea that God ordains it is worse then someone who keeps “bitching” about it’s not the way of the kingdom.
Certainly scriptural history contains many stories of God ordering war but I’ve yet to see God order a war in my lifetime.
*cue the just war theory*
From #32:
Rick: Dying for a nation cannot Biblically be categorized as heroic, unless you include the Taliban, Al Quieda, etc.. The 19 9/11 Arabs died for theirr faith as well.
Case in point. And I didn’t even have to go to one of multiple other posts with just as ludicrous comparisons.
For the purposes of protection, it is allowed by God as one of the few purposes of government. We can argue about whether specific instances of violence were truly for protection, but it is allowed without sin (and demanded in some cases) nonetheless.
Which is a perfect distortion of “just war theory”, in itself, since the purpose of JWT is to prevent wars, not to ordain a war as “ordered by God”.
I would like to openly repent of some of my comments in times past that included a tone that cannot be justified as a believer and follower of Jesus Christ. I cannot recall expressing an opinion that I did not sincerely believe, however I can recall numerous times where my expression of such views was significantly less than Christlike and at times outright sinful and retaliatory.
I repent and ask for forgiveness from anyone who received the carnal end of such comments, especially Chris and Joe. I honestly believe that all the writers here are believers and sincerely are attempting to follow Him.
And I completely forgive anyone who offended me, real or imagined, and I will treat such as never have happened. I desire to do and be better than I have shown sometimes. I desire to live by the Sermon on the Mount which I have carelessly observed as deficient in others while comfortably and safely admitting I fall far short as well.
I have been shown that admitting shortcomings without pursuing observable alterations is meaningless in my life. May everyone here deepen the stakes and lengthen the cords of your walk with Him. I wish to do the same.
Rick
#50 Ditto.
Thanks Rick, Backatcha.
#50
Thank you, Rick. I would agree, as well (substituting your name and others in the place of myself and Joe).
Having ideals and living by them, particularly with fervor, is a tricky and difficult endeavor…