From a friend:
“We do not fight to ‘take back the culture.’. It was never ‘ours’…”
–John Ortberg, from a Twitter post that was Re-Tweeted and picked up by a FB Friend and passed along to me via FB IM
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Indeed. The culture fight is humanism disguised as Christian “conservatism”. The fight over economical issues is even worse.
over the past few years i have become increasingly aware of the faults and failures of christendom. christendom being the time when western culture was mostly christian and the church was propped up by it.
much of what the odm’s lament, much of what they contend is the laodicean back-sliding of the church is not so much that as it is the loss of our privileged status.
which i contend is not necessarily a bad thing.
Re: OP: one line thought – two line back-story
Neil (#2), yeah, I don’t see a whole lot in Scripture about protecting/pursuing privileged status. But then I don’t have “discernment” (thank God), so what do I know?
If you complain about your circumstances you are not following Christ.
If you complain about the government you are not in faith.
If you complain about lost people you are not in love.
If you complain about the sin of others you are not in grace.
If you complain about the culture you are discontent.
If you complain about society you are not in hope.
If you complain about your finances you do not see eternity.
If you complain about your circumstances you are complaining about God.
If you complain about anything you are living as an earthling and not soaring as a child of the Most High God.
Rick. Are you complaining about complaining?
Teaching, brother.
ekklesia means called out ones. We are not supposed to function as part of the culture, we are not supposed to want to take back the culture. We are new creatures that live outside of and above culture. Unfortunately, this is not true of the Purpose Driven, seeker sensitive and many emergent cohorts that embrace culture and try to make the called out ones come back in and look like the culture rather than look like Christ.
the first phrase is false and the second is the modus operandi … the driving force of many odm’s.
This statement lends me to believe you either do not understand what “culture” is… or you just cannot help but speak in meaningless cliche’s. this is a rough tone, and one i would not take with a lot of people, yet, a lot of people would not make such statements.
the incarnation of christ is the best example of what it means to live in and be a part of a culture.
unfortunately, this is not true of many legalists, separatists, and modernists who think culture is evil and try to force the called out one’s into a christian ghetto.
How in the world is it possible to live outside the culture, short of going and becoming a monk or a nun? Even those groups are part of a certain culture due to the fact they share a common language and history.
That’s not to say that there aren’t certain things within cultures that we shouldn’t reject. There certainly are. There was a post on the Internet Monk site a few weeks ago about Christians and artistic expression where the author mentioned the root of the word “secular” means “of the age”. When something is secular it basically means it is passing away – it has no value in the age to come. So there is some artwork produced by non-Christians that could be considered non-secular – it has actual timeless value – and there is plenty of stuff produced by Christians that should be considered secular. That’s not saying everything secular is inherently bad or evil, but simply that it doesn’t last. I think when you look at culture through that lens, it clears things up a bit.
phil,
telling a christian to live outside the culture is like telling a fish to live outside its water.
now, it is possible for christians to create their own sub-cultures… but this is neither biblical nor wise.
once we start using “christian” as an adjective to describe a culture we’re right back to dictating to others that their culture – everything from language to sexual positions – must be like ours to be christian…
So Neil, what are we called out from?
hmmmmmm
It is possible and desirable to live within the culture but remarkably and observably outside its practices and tone. As it stands the western church lives and speaks in lockstep with the present culture.
Our Christian subculture should be loving, humble, temperate, joyful, compassionate, and most of all redemptive. We should remind people of Jesus.
Pastorboy,
you answered your own question. we are called out of ungodliness, wordily passions, etc… saying we are not to function as part of the culture is not only cliche, it’s an impossibility.
re 14: i would contend that christians should be those things while not creating a sub-culture.
Further, I would say some (maybe many) who are attacked by odm’s are doing just that. and the latter does not like it!
re the op: i think i would disagree with ortberg… in a sense there was a time when the culture was ours – or nearly so. it was never christian in the purest sense – i don’t think a culture can be – but our culture (both american and western) did go through quite a long period when the church and christianity were foundational.
so i might argue that ortberg is wrong.
yet, i would agree that the culture was never truly nor fully christian – and in that sense it was never ours.
be that as it may… regardless… i agree fully with his sentiment about trying to take it back.
I do not believe that Christians can avoid some subculture elements. If we are salt and light, and the culture is darkness, that creates a subculture just by definition. How can we say we follow Jesus and not have an observable contrast to a culture that follows darkness?
And let me differenciate between a salty difference that effects our behavior and participation in some cultural activities and a religious clique. One is redemptive and the other self righteous.
rick,
i agree. the christian sub-culture i speak of (negatively) is our habit of removing ourselves from the general society by creating “christian versions” of everything so we do not have to participate with unbelievers.
for example, a small group in our church created their own version of the boy scouts, because the leader of the local troop was not a christian.
for example, years ago i saw an add for a “christian retirement village” that was being planned by an evangelical church in the south.
and then be baptize our efforts with biblical cliches.
I have never subscribed to a “Christian” yellow pages type of subculture. In fact, I have often been disappointed by professing believers in secular endeavors.
Guilty by Association – Steve Taylor