**The Sound Bite Life**

had someone else said this there would be no disagreements. cue the lame ‘ol “yeah, but he means a different jesus” in 3…. 2…. 1….

bad hermeneutic: people who are children of wrath were not created to be like Christ.

re #6 – discernment FAIL!

you fail to discern between purpose and position.

It’s funny to me that people can read the book of Romans and take a point away that is almost directly opposed to the point that Paul is making. In Romans 9, Paul basically is taking the logic of those who would be opposing him and using it against them. It’s a common rhetorical technique – using your opponent’s own logic against him. Paul is basically saying, “so if you believe some were chosen to be objects of wrath by God, and they belong to Him, than God is certainly within His rights to show mercy to those people. He is after all, sovereign.” It’s really quite a brilliant argument.

Ironically enough, that would have been the same argument the Pope would’ve used with Luther, PB. Disagreeing with one’s interpretation of the Bible is certainly different than disagreeing with Bible.

That passage in Ephesians is actually a good illustration of what wrath actually means. They were children of wrath because they were walking unabated after their own desires. The wrath they were experiencing was the natural consequence of those desires. They were beyond the point of being able to help themselves, and God rescued them. The good news is that through Christ, the Father has rescued humanity and is recreating us in the image of Christ.

that through Christ, the Father has rescued has made the way for humanity to be rescued through faith in His Son and is recreating us those who do believe in to the image of Christ.

There fixed.

Not that it matters. I am a strict anti-Calvinist and do not agree with PB’s position.

John,
Help me out here. When God created man, He created him in His image. And Jesus is the express image of God. (Hebrews 1:1-4) So ultimately we were created to become like Christ. Now with sin in the picture, this can only happen through the power of His sinless life, through His death upon Golgotha, and by His glorious resurrection. But that does not negate the fact that we were created in His image, and that Jesus, the only mediator between God and man, is restoring that image in His redeemed ones.

Are you saying that we were created as children of wrath? That’s why we were created? To bear the brunt of God’s wrath?

Or, perhaps, is it that sin marred and continues to mar the image of God (Christ) in man? And it is only through Christ that we can begin to know and show what it is like to be created in His image?

Well, I don’t see how the way most Christians talk about God’s wrath is at all consistent. God cannot love sinners and not stand to have them in His presence at the same time.

I would say that what sinners experience as wrath is actually the process of God drawing them close to Himself. The fire of God’s love for us can be painful as it burns away that which is not of God. This is why some tend to run away from God. I have no doubt, though, that the Father’s unchanging stance towards every human being is love.

Or even to throw more Bible into the mix, I’ll toss out an old Lutheran standby and the verse that follows:

Eph 2:8-10

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

TGIF

-Mike

However to PB’s point in 13, I don’t see how Scripture could be much clearer that before faith in Christ we are an object of God’s wrath.

even if we grant that pastorboy is right in #13… his comment #6 is a complete failure to discern between purpose and position.

Comment number 6 is false… and therefore the issue of “children of wrath” is moot to the quote.

#17, 25
1. Ephesians is written to Christians.
2. We are all children of wrath until we, by the grace of God, come to faith in Jesus Christ.
3. If we do not come to faith in Jesus we are already condemned(John 3:18) and the wrath of God abides on us (John 3:36) and we are storing up wrath (Romans 2:5)
4. Unrepentant children of wrath who will be judged are not created to be like Christ.

“Unrepentant children of wrath”

In other words, “children who cannot repent because God will not allow them to”. God must really receive some bizarre satisfaction as He creates billions of souls who He does not love, refuses to offer redemption, and who continue to populate hell.

And just to bottom line this creation narrative, God is creating .01 chosen souls to every 100 souls that are eternall damned. I call it “Damnation Solitaire” that creates many more black sheet than white.

This creation thing is way out of wack. If I knew that every child I had would wind up in hell for eternity without any hope of escaping that fate, I would not have had any children. But of course God gets pleasure by the continuous march of damned souls that He replaces daily lest there be a lull in damnation.

Calvin strikes again.

#28 So what do you call them Rick? I call them what the Bible calls them, not Calvin. And such as were all of us! I was a child of wrath until Christ in His mercy reached me.

#29

a failure to distinguish between purpose and position.

I wonder what that even means: ultimately we all were created to glorify God: Some will glorify Him by receiving grace through faith. Still others will glorify Him by continuing in their rebellion and being sent to Hell for eternity.

#31 Satan is not human, but, yes, His being cast into the lake of fire for all eternity will glorify God.

Anytime God’s attributes are doled out and His judgments are made, they bring glory to Him because they are always right and proper.

Every knee will bow, in heaven and in earth and UNDER THE EARTH and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the Glory of God the Father.

Preaching a message of hope to the “non-elect” reminds me of Oscar Schindler spraying water hoses into box cars loaded with Jews on their way to their death. In a bizzare way it is most cruel and only serves as a conscience salve to the living.

#37 Just the opposite: Those who believe that they deserve to live for eternity with Christ are the self righteous ones. we all deserve God’s wrath. If we have been born again, we have been granted repentance and given faith, grace.

In doctrinal reality, God is perfectly glorified in everything. But to give some perspective, God takes no pleasure in the death or punishment of the wicked. That is the difference. Jesus did not rejoice in the hard heartedness of Jerusalem, and in fact, He wept. That might suggest a little open theism?

I continue to suggest that those of us who claim a theology of an eternity in hell for the lost are the most hypocritical of all believers. That is, of course, if your theology does not suggest that you cannot be used of God to alter anyone’s eternity. With that contrivance you can sleep well at night and even rejoice when sinners reject your message.

It is all to God’s twisted glory.

’tis true that god’s glory is glorified as he judges rebellion and sin.

but to say some were created specifically to be sent to hell is… well, not a doctrine i see in scripture.

again -purpose vs. position.

I mean this:

Those who believe in unconditional election can live as though everything is already set. Those of us who believe everyone could be saved in many ways live as though that is not true since we spend time and money on temporal and many times worthless things.