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40 Comments(+Add)
Take no thought. Let’s see…my perspectives are “constant bitching” while yours are…well, whatever you say they are.
The day you have no money to turn on the air conditioner or the television, call me. I will buy you groceries.
In everything give thanks for this is the will of God concerning you in…never mind. It’s not Sunday.
Chris,
Since I do not have a ‘manufacturing mind’ (not that you necessarily do, but I think you understand some engineering stuff), could you explain to your devoted readers, like me, why it would cost $250,000 to develop that god-awful looking chair?
sincerely,
jerry
Jerry – New product development in any industry is incredibly expensive.
If you want to mass-produce something, you’ve got to design and create the die-cuts, molds, patterns, etc., along with the manufacturing equipment tooling, etc. For a product like a chair, you’ve got at least 5-10 different engineering & design disciplines required to do the physical design. And that doesn’t take into account any customer/focus group and market testing. Frankly, I’m surprised that design costs for a chair like that (which has numerous regulatory standards for ergonomics, etc. it has to meet to avoid being sued or fined by the government) are only $250K.
The Aeron chair, for example, cost several million dollars to develop & design.
I wouldn’t limit it specifically to you, as it pertains to the church. My perspective tends to be that if someone has pretty much nothing nice to say about my Bride, and constantly bitches about her shortcomings, I wonder why they hold such an interest in her in the first place…
Tear out much Scripture in the minor and major prophets. Is the glass half full or half empty?
Both.
Yeah, $250K for the design, prototyping, and implementation of a mass-produced item like that chair doesn’t seem excessive to me. I imagine they’re able to reuse some of their existing lines for some of the parts.
IIRC, the Old Testament is pretty much worthless to you, and to cite its narrative (or even NT narrative) is always pooh-poohed by you. Why the sudden conversion to narrative theology? Is it permanent or just convenient?
Now – since you’re going to cite the narrative, I would point out that 1) the church is not the nation of Israel; 2) its identification as the Bride does not occur until the time of Jesus and his disciples; and 3) even when challenged by Jesus (in Rev.) or one of the apostles, there is rarely (if ever) the utter disdain and thorough scorn you heap upon the Bride.
Also, just to make the thread between our overarching interest (defending folks against false accusation & mis-characterization) and this video – the point of my choosing the clip is that the folks complaining about “the rich” paying their “fair share” are pretty much just the Silvas and Pastorboys of a different sphere of interest.
Same song, different dance.
“So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.”
Correction, Chris, is not disdain unless you are blind etc.. The Bride is not above rebuke. My OT reference was to show you that correction has always been a part of God’s way. (Whom I love…) I consider the OT to be God’s Word, but to be supportive in this New Testanment covenant. (Heb.1:1)
I don’t believe God commands His followers today to wipe out entire cities, children and all. Do you? You know, rightly dividing and all that.
Whatever the government decides is everyone’s “fair share” and believers should not complain. Unless violent overthrow of the government, a la the Revolutionary War, is on the table as this evangelical pastor suggests.
IIRC, the letter to the church at Laodicea was specifically aimed at an attitude they (and pretty much the whole city) displayed, which was “we don’t need anyone – we can take care of ourselves”. Even so, I’d note that is was directed by Jesus, specifically, toward that specific, local church. There were different messages – not all of the bad – to the Seven Churches, which were all fairly close, geographically. I don’t see the universal condemnation and bitching about the entire church within Asia Minor – or Greece – or Rome – that you pretty much broad brush over the entire western church.
Who appointed you the judge of the western churches and the prophet to condemn them wholesale for not living up to the burdens you’ve created and judgmentally hoisted upon their backs. Sorry, but calling the Bride a wholesale whore for not living up to your expectations doesn’t buy any favors with her Groom…
But since the believers (or at least those who’ve not disengaged themselves to a position where they can abstain from participation but throw stones as sport) have a responsibility to be engaged in their community, it is important that they not fall for the type of lies being hissed in their ears by the snakes of ignorance and class warfare, and exercise their votes accordingly.
“or at least those who’ve not disengaged themselves to a position where they can abstain from participation but throw stones as sport”
You should try it sometimes! You have become too easy.
I was thinking about politics today. I was thinking it would be fun if I could be president or governor…some position that afforded me the opportunity to deal with taxes.
If I were president, one of two things (or both) would happen. A) I would cut taxes across the board or, B) I would make everyone pay the same amount, say, 10%, all inclusive.
That’s what I’d do. Imagine if everyone paid the same amount.
Is 10% too much? Too little? Could this country survive if we paid no taxes?
No deductions?
Jerry -
1) For a flat tax to work (for 2006 spending levels – not 2010 levels) you need them pegged at 17% with only a standard individual/family deduction.
2) The Fair Tax is probably a better way to go.
Well, even 17% is better than what we are paying now.
Down with taxes!
Here’s a nice quote from Harry Reid (O, Nevada):
“We were at the top and we’ve fallen very hard. So people have been
hurting, and I understand that, and it doesn’t give them comfort or
solace for me to tell them, you know, but for me we’d be in a worldwide
depression. They want to know what I’ve done for them, and that’s why
it’s important for me, any …chance I get, to say that my number one job
is to create jobs.”
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/10/22/reid-wed-worldwide-depression/
Best 3 seconds of video ever: “…the exact opposite of Nancy Pelosi. ‘I’m not a witch.’”
So, who is the bully?
i fixed your link, pastorboy.
what bothers me most, pastorboy, is your attitude that this somehow glorifies god… that his lovingkindness was displayed by you… that you call this persecution for your faith.
making people mad at you is no major accomplishment.
It is most distasteful to trumpet your own “persecution”. The gay issue should not be made an issue except within the church. It’s like preaching tithing to the lost.
But of course it makes you feel like some martyr, and it gives you something to publicize. Perhaps an updated version of the Fox’s Book of Martyrs will include you! Preaching on homosexuality on a college campus is Phelpsesque. And afterward you can all go get something to eat and reminisce about all the things shouted at you.
You really want to exhibit boldness? Gather your church together, go to south Los Angeles and preach against gangs.
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall preach against homsexuality both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Rick,
Of course you all would think that. My message is the same to all poor sinners: You can be saved- simply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. We do preach the law to help show a mirror to those who think they are good in God’s sight. We stick to the basics- lying, stealing, blasphemy, idolatry-yet without fail, homosexuality, evolution, and marijuana are brought up on the campus. It is when we address these questions from the Bible that we are quoted and demonized.
We recognize that these folks are representative of the natural man, therefore we do not judge. We simply reveal the law to them. They judge themselves and get angry with the messenger. I am no martyr, and I do not feel persecuted. But it is the ones who were using the ‘bully’ card that were doing the bullying.
The message is the same- we need Christ- all of us- or we cannot be saved.
There are “conservative” unbelievers who speak out against homosexuality. If a believer is “persecuted” for something an unbeliever can be persecuted for, then it is not a righteous persecution.
This, my friend, is exactly the problem with your approach.
Is that the law of Moses or the law of love?
I don’t understand how what they did is different than what you do when you go to a vacation spot with a bullhorn (portable PA system) and blast away. I realize you were in private property but by your own admission you didn’t ask them to leave. They didn’t attack you. They didn’t hit you, they didn’t even speak out against you. They just stood there.
How is what you did at the college or at the beach different?
#29 – Great point.
Oh and John, I know you don’t like Rob Bell, me and anything related to Mars. This question isn’t about that. It is honestly trying to understand how you view what happened vs. how you view what it is you do.
The law definitely reveals where I fall short. But the good news of salvation through the crucified and risen Christ does not have its foundation in the law. Yes, Christ did not abolish, but fulfilled the law. Yes, the law acts as a guardian, leading us to Christ. Yes, the law in and of itself is good. But the gospel message is come to Christ, the Messiah and Redeemer, and we will have life.
The gospel that starts with telling me how much of a sinner I am, and that starts with repentence, tends to lead to emotional decisions to follow Christ to escape hell. Rather, the good news is that Jesus is the Messiah. And He is bringing us (Jews and Gentiles) into the covenant family that He promised to Abraham. The good news is that we can be reconciled to God.
Repentence is part of the package. But in my opinion, preaching the law and repentence is getting the cart before the horse. If I must repent to be saved, I’ve done something to be saved.
I know these are jumbled thoughts. Just some things that came to mind when I read John’s comment about the law.
Okay, I just read my comment and would like to clarify something. I wrote “But the good news of salvation through the crucified and risen Christ does not have its foundation in the law.”
That is probably not the best way to state what I meant. The law is a good foundation for the gospel. And since Jesus is the author and fulfiller of the law, part of the foundation of the gospel could be the law.
Now I’m confusing myself.
Hopefully the rest of that comment clarified the point I was trying to make.
Shalom
Repent and believe means change your mind about Jesus. It does not have anything to do with sin. Unbelievers and believers alike can stop doing all sorts of sins, but the majority pf Jesus’ teachings about identifying a believer through behavior centers on humanitarian deeds and not which sins he stopped doing.
#29
Apples and oranges.
One is outside in a public forum.
The other is on private property.
It would be like me going into his classroom and holding up signs when invited. I would be arrested and rightly so for trespassing.
Not that anything like this would ever happen with Rob Bell. He never says anything controversial (except to Bible believing God-honoring Born- again Christians). The world loves Bell, so if I came into your church with a sign and stood silently you can bet that I would be escorted out.
#35 I’ll bet you good money that you wouldn’t. But John Chisham, your thoughts about Rob and Mars are not relevant here. You could have escorted them out, why didn’t you, especially if you felt bullied.
They were street preaching their truth.
They were not in a street, they were in a worship service. They wanted to be ushered out. They wanted police called. They wanted us to act intolerant like they portray Christians. No way. Plus, they heard the Gospel. Bonus.
I agree with the bonus. Hearing the gospel is always a bonus for everyone. I’m curious how you know what they wanted.
So, are you saying that if they went to public place where you were street preaching and had the same signs, you wouldn’t care?
Thats right Joe, because they were at Mankato State and St Cloud State with the same or similar signs. They were blocking the preachers, but they could not block the Word.
Hey John,
Thanks for answering my questions and mostly staying on track. Have a good one.