I want to start a discussion on what it means to live as a disciple of Christ. To get it started here’s a comment I made in a discussion on my facebook page.
I really don’t see any kind of radical difference in the church. I mean really, living out the resurrection of Christ means you don’t cuss? Seriously? You don’t go to rated R movies? Or does it mean you reject things that most people take for granted. Like the great many careers that are lucrative, but anti-Christ, or the basic premise that acquiring stuff is a good thing (again, like Lloyd this is a tough one for me, but one that God has really smacked me around with for the last year), or the treatment of aliens.
Let me put it this way. While James might be able to debt collect in a Christ-like way (I find it hard to believe you could last long in that industry doing so, but I could be wrong on that), how was that debt incurred? Most Christians I’ve read and talked to assume that its legitimate debt that was incurred by irresponsible people who are deadbeats, who should be dragged into court and have their children sold to pay off the debt. But the flip side of it is that there is a vicious, anti-Christ system that created that debt. You’ve got various credit extending institutions that target people for the use of their instruments, including the naive like college students, who bury their terms in the fine print, and generally squeeze as hard as they can to the extent that they’ve been recently smacked down by congress. On the consumer side of things you’ve got companies aggressively marketing their products, high pressure sales pretty much everywhere (speaking from retail experience here), and extremely shady practices on every level.
So who’s to blame? The answer is: it doesn’t matter. The entire system is anti-Christ, but instead of refusing to participate in it, the American church has generally been approving of it, denouncing those who have been victimized by it instead of denouncing the core of the sin.
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32 Comments(+Add)
I guess I’m curious as to what the phrase “refuse to participate in” actually looks like? How do Christians actually not take part in the economic system? Do we go live in communes or some other sort of group-living arrangement?
I also don’t know what you mean about people having their children sold off. What do you mean by that? Where is this happening?
I’m not saying that I just think the status quo is great, but I just wonder what you would put forth as examples of people not participating in the system.
You’re being a little literal on the “sell off their children” remark. That was some hyperbole there.
In this context refusing to participate begins with not taking sides on issues like the one cited, where the general attitude is one of approving of the overall system. Where it goes from there is going to look different for each person/family. Though the commune situation is going to be present, I doubt it would ever be dominant in any way, though probably beneficial to some, and certainly healthy for the church overall.
You think communes are healthy for the church?
I’m not sure what you quoted helps facilitate or develop the conversation you want to have. I think it’s interesting, and I probably agree, but it’s devoid of context and it isn’t very specific.
Phil, I’m a little disappointed that you didn’t recognize that as hyperbole.
I guess I didn’t pickup any queues that made me think it was hyperbole. I’m sorry I’m such a disappointment…
Honestly, though, I will admit I have a very hard time thinking of many people who get themselves in over their head in debt as victims. I know there are people who have legitimate problems because of healthcare bills and such, but I’ve met too many people who get in trouble because they have to have the latest X-Box games, widescreen TVs, etc. Sure, retailers do all they can to lure people in with marketing and pressure tactics, but it’s not beyond most people’s ability to simply say “no”. It’s simply part of being an adult.
I guess my question still remains – if we’re saying the current system isn’t good, or anti-Christ, as you put it, what’s the alternative? Yeah, it looks different for every individual/family – I’d agree with that. But, on the other hand, doesn’t a system that allows individual choice necessitate that there will inevitably be people who make wrongs choices and people who try to take advantage of that?
Phil, I think Tim is addressing how the church and we as Christians contribute to people making wrong choices.
Sure, I get that.
I’m just not certain that it’s so black and white as to what industries we can participate in as Christians or not. I’d say a lot of it comes down to our personal consciences. I’ve worked in retail, and I’m sure I sold things to people who couldn’t necessarily afford what they were buying. I didn’t pressure them to make those purchases (actually, I pretty much suck as a salesman). Was that a wrong choice for me? At the time, I didn’t have many other options job-wise.
I guess a more interesting question to me rather than can a Christian work in a particular field is how can a Christian work redemptively in a given field. Sure some vocations are out of the question, but I’d say the vast majority aren’t. Is there a role in a new creation for things like consumer credit? It’s an interesting question. There are some econonomists who would say that a major contributor to the lifting of the standard of living of the middle class in the US during the 20th century was the ease that which credit could be obtained.
I doube a Christian can work in many vocations in a Christ like way. Speaking from experience there’s no way you can work at Staples in the EasyTech dept for the long term and do so. I suspect its similar in many other ways.
Frankly, I’d just be happy if Christians had this conversation, forget the conclusion, just because I doubt it happens all that often.
I doubt that a Christian can work at a place like Blockbuster video very long either (and not just because they are bankrupt and had to close the stores where many of us worked). But, mostly, because the corporate people wanted us to sell garbage to EVERY single customer that walked in the door–whether they needed it, wanted it, or asked for it.
Imagine your job depending upon how much candy and pop you sold in a shift. Imagine your job depending upon how many video game pre-sales you managed to squeeze out of parents with screaming children. Working at Blockbuster made me a predator in the very worst sense of that word.
Yeah, feed that kid another piece of candy. Stick another video game in his hand.
Jerry,
I feel ya. That’s exactly how it as at Staples. I imagine that’s how it is at most places.
The biggest thing for me as selling the service plans. They had a bunch of caveats, were expensive, and frankly, customers were left in the dark concerning their warranties.
I agree with Phil that there may be a way to work redemptively in many fields. You may lose your job for it (like it sounds for blockbuster and staples, but isn’t that some of what Revelation deals with? Choosing to follow Christ and live according to His way even if it means people won’t do business with you or let you work for them?
I also agree that this conversation is not being had as often as it could/should. But I don’t think that means that it isn’t happening.
Among the churches I’ve served it never happens.
To my mind, and contrary to what I have said elsewhere, this is a conversation that *is* worth having. But like Tim notes, churches are not having this conversation. We are too busy deciding whether it is our responsibility to help children who need school supplies or whether we should buy new carpet for our ’sanctuary’.
It’s all rather dull. I think David Platt’s books, Radical and Radical Together (I think that’s the title) work towards this conversation, but I also think that what Platt proposes is confined to a too narrow theological perspective.
From my own theological point of view, I would love for some serious discussion along these lines in the Stone-Campbell churches. It is long overdue and would be a welcome replacement for conversations we have about baptism, creation, and male/female roles in the church.
That’s just my opinion.
I absolutely agree. Unfortunately there’s been, for a long time, a re-definition of what “the world” is that the scriptures warn us about. Instead of “the world” being the selfish, power hording, self-aggrandizing nature we all have it has become anything that isn’t 1950s middle America.
Reading the early church fathers opinion on lending money for interest would likely cause an uproar in most churches.
The thing is if we’re going to start condemning other people or ourselves for working for certain businesses, then the next logical step would be for us to not use any of the services those businesses provide. That might not be so hard when you’re talking about something like Staples or Blockbuster, but it’s harder when you get into the more ubiquitous institutions in our society. Without interest, our monetary system would cease to exist as we know it.
I guess the only reason I’m pushing back some is that to me this discussion seems to be several steps removed from reality. Yes, we can speak of the ideals, but if the ideals are simply unattainable for most people, than they’ll remain that. I’d rather talk of smaller, concrete steps that people can take in their everyday lives to live like Christ. I for one am not ready to say that all Christians who work in retail jobs for employers who have some questionable parts of their business model should simply quit. I don’t think Christ calls us to live in a world that simply doesn’t exist.
I will also add that perhaps one reason I’m approaching this issue from a angle that seems to be different from Tim and Jerry is that I grew up in a tradition that *always* had these conversations. The list of things that was appropriate for us to do was definitely smaller than the list of things that was inappropriate for us to do. And I guess that’s my fear. When we start talking a particular behavior’s or vocation’s place in a Christian’s life, it just seems that it’s not long before we start construction lists and descending into legalism.
I wonder, do you think a person could be a Roman soldier and still live the resurrection? I’m thinking of the leader that came to Jesus so that his daughter would be healed. Jesus commends his faith.
You say our financial system would collapsed like its a bad thing.
Sure not every disciple could withdraw from everything but it’s nit all or nothing. Some exercise is better than none even if its not ideal.
A lot of this reminds me of this post that Tony Jones wrote few years ago. The best part, imo, is this:
The whole part about Mennonites, Hauerwas, and “Constantianism” seems to be related to what we’re talking about here. How much interaction can we have with a fallen system and still keep our integrity intact. I don’t think there’s an easy answer.
It also reminds me of a conversation I had with my friend who’s a deacon in an Eastern Orthodox church a while back. He reminded me that the EO church still venerates Constantine as a saint. That might not be here nor there, but I found it food for thought.
The thing is most churches are openly approving of a fallen system.forget being wise as serpents….
How so, Tim? Not that I disagree, but you’re making sweeping generalizing statements and you aren’t explaining yourself.
Joe,
you also have the soldier’s John the Baptist talked to who said to return to their post. However by the time the disciple John finished writing there were few trying to reconcile that profession with following chris its all in the details.
Well yeah but all I have to go on are my experiences and most Christians I’ve attempted to talk to about this get all prickly.
#22. I agree. I just get nervous when I hear phrases like, “you can’t be serious about following Christ and be in such and such a profession.” I think that what the person is often saying is more like, “I can’t be serious about following Christ and be in such and such a profession.”
Sure it all has to do with how it plays out. Can you work retail in a Christian way? Maybe somewhere but not at a national chain
Why not at a national chain?
All I’m familiar with have adopted similar tactics. Again perhaps there are some exceptions …
Maybe that’s the problem with this whole discussion. You’re working off of your experience with a few churches and a couple of retail chains, and a few other business that you worked for. I don’t think what you are talking about is bad or wrong, but I certainly think it would be good and fair for you to examine what you can about other situations, people, places, etc. even if you haven’t experienced that/them yourself.
Excuse me, I didn’t phrase my opening very well in that last comment. I should have said something more like:
“I see that as possibly being a problem I have with this whole discussion.”
I certainly don’t think it’s “the” problem. For that matter, I hate it when people say things like that, because it’s rarely if ever so simple as that. This is definitely a difficult and nuanced topic.
Could be. But reading the consumerist and talking to fellow travelers in both spheres doesn’t leave me with much hope.
What counter examples have you seen?
I haven’t thought about it a lot. But it appears you have. And I’m not necessarily arguing for the contrary, just that what you have thought about and read and heard from others would be beneficial if this conversation is going to move forward.